Gods and killing...

Aafke

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Aafke said:

chadwick said:

im not looking for a arguement just a bit of whatever it is i am doing.

put me in a choke hold, run me to a room, lock me in it & call the cops to come arrest me. this is not going to happen like this. you will wrap your arms, legs & feet around my neck & head, i then walk around either bashing you into the corner of a wall while beating you terribly like a punching bag & or body slamming you into your fireplace.

if i am locked in any given room, chances are i could plow my way through the wall or simply go through the door. imagine doing this to a very insane & dangerous individual

they will laugh at you & beat you to death w/ their two hands

Well, It did happen, and I'm still writing this, so I haven't been beaten to death. My advantage was, probable the element of surprise. This intruder thought no one was home, and there I was. He was scared as hell... Therefor I could overpower him.

Afterwards I had to clean his shit up, which he dropped when I caught him by surprise..

Nobody's doubting you, but let's be serious: this scenario you describe could just as easily gone sideways on you and you could have been in a fight for your life. I cant recall if you said you had a family behind you that was relying on you. If so... the stakes were pretty high to be so patient with an intruder.

I'm saying that if presented with any scenario where you and your family are facing a threat... I strongly advise anyone to gain the upper hand on the situation and not place yourself in a position where you are regretting not taking aggressive and firm action when the opportunity was afforded to you.

Pretty chancy.

Yes, I have two boys depending on me, and I know it was a risky situation.... But I do believe that if I had used a weapon of any kind, it would have provoked more rage in the intruder. He could have easily overpowered me, and have hurt me with my own weapon.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Aafke said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Aafke said:

chadwick said:

im not looking for a arguement just a bit of whatever it is i am doing.

put me in a choke hold, run me to a room, lock me in it & call the cops to come arrest me. this is not going to happen like this. you will wrap your arms, legs & feet around my neck & head, i then walk around either bashing you into the corner of a wall while beating you terribly like a punching bag & or body slamming you into your fireplace.

if i am locked in any given room, chances are i could plow my way through the wall or simply go through the door. imagine doing this to a very insane & dangerous individual

they will laugh at you & beat you to death w/ their two hands

Well, It did happen, and I'm still writing this, so I haven't been beaten to death. My advantage was, probable the element of surprise. This intruder thought no one was home, and there I was. He was scared as hell... Therefor I could overpower him.

Afterwards I had to clean his shit up, which he dropped when I caught him by surprise..

Nobody's doubting you, but let's be serious: this scenario you describe could just as easily gone sideways on you and you could have been in a fight for your life. I cant recall if you said you had a family behind you that was relying on you. If so... the stakes were pretty high to be so patient with an intruder.

I'm saying that if presented with any scenario where you and your family are facing a threat... I strongly advise anyone to gain the upper hand on the situation and not place yourself in a position where you are regretting not taking aggressive and firm action when the opportunity was afforded to you.

Pretty chancy.

Yes, I have two boys depending on me, and I know it was a risky situation.... But I do believe that if I had used a weapon of any kind, it would have provoked more rage in the intruder. He could have easily overpowered me, and have hurt me with my own weapon.

This is within the spectrum of possibilities... I won't deny that. Tough situation to be in for sure.

rollings

Aafke said:

Found this post on fb, made me think...

This saying, although cute & catchy on the surface, is logically flawed in its predicate in that gods, in fact, do not kill people, nor do people go around saying that they do.

know1

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I feel nothing for people who harm innocents. And when these innocents are women and children...

But who determines who's innocent? It might be easier in the case of a child, but what adult is actually "innocent"?

And for the record, I'm not going to sit there like a monk and be killed. I would try to avoid it. I just draw the line at killing someone else to "extend" my own life. What made my life more important than theirs.

Aafke

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I feel nothing for people who harm innocents. And when these innocents are women and children...

But who determines who's innocent? It might be easier in the case of a child, but what adult is actually "innocent"?

And for the record, I'm not going to sit there like a monk and be killed. I would try to avoid it. I just draw the line at killing someone else to "extend" my own life. What made my life more important than theirs.

I totally agree with you, on this one...

hedonist

I consider an innocent someone who's just going about their business, living their life peacefully. The person at Wal-Mart who was beaten out of the blue by some sick fuck with a baseball bat? That's an innocent.

The couple who were gunned down in their car near USC last year? Innocents.

(and...as to the importance of one's life - true, it's subjective, but my life and the lives of those I love are worth my defending. I don't consider survival an "extension" of life.)

Aafke

But is defending your own life or the life of a loved one, only possible by killing the one who attacks you? I don't think so...

jeffbr

hedonist said:

(and...as to the importance of one's life - true, it's subjective, but my life and the lives of those I love are worth my defending. I don't consider survival an "extension" of life.)

This is something I've tried to express before, and it's exactly how I feel. This notion that all human life has equal value and some sort of sanctity is nuts to me. We all make value judgements on everything we do every day. Value is totally subjective for most things. I certainly value my life and the lives of my family and friends more highly than I do my neighbors' lives. I value my neighbors' lives more highly than I do someone across the world who I don't know. The lives of these violent perpetrators have very low value to me. Many of them hold negative value to me, meaning that I believe we'd be better off without them taking another breath of air. Now I know that I am not the universal arbiter of the value of life, but I would apply my value system situationally. I would certainly defend my life or the lives of my family members to the death if need be. I don't believe I'd do the same for my neighbors, and I know I wouldn't do it for complete strangers with whom I have no relationship. But the "all life is sacred" camp makes absolutely no sense.

I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.

hedonist

Nope, and never said as much. I've fortunately never been in that position but hope I'd do all I could to preserve my own life vs that of my attacker.

Aafke

I don't think that defending yourself or a loved one is equal to killing your attacker, as I stated before, I think that's to narrow minded, there are more ways to defend yourself, than killing...

Thirty Bills Unpaid

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I feel nothing for people who harm innocents. And when these innocents are women and children...

But who determines who's innocent? It might be easier in the case of a child, but what adult is actually "innocent"?

And for the record, I'm not going to sit there like a monk and be killed. I would try to avoid it. I just draw the line at killing someone else to "extend" my own life. What made my life more important than theirs.

Say nothing of the fact that when you are 'defending' yourself... you are defending yourself.

If I'm reading you correctly, you have said that the person accosting you might be more deserving of life so you shouldn't do anything to him?

Excuse me for saying so, but this is nonsense unless there's something we don't know about you.

hedonist

jeffbr said:

hedonist said:

(and...as to the importance of one's life - true, it's subjective, but my life and the lives of those I love are worth my defending. I don't consider survival an "extension" of life.)

This is something I've tried to express before, and it's exactly how I feel. This notion that all human life has equal value and some sort of sanctity is nuts to me. We all make value judgements on everything we do every day. Value is totally subjective for most things. I certainly value my life and the lives of my family and friends more highly than I do my neighbors' lives. I value my neighbors' lives more highly than I do someone across the world who I don't know. The lives of these violent perpetrators have very low value to me. Many of them hold negative value to me, meaning that I believe we'd be better off without them taking another breath of air. Now I know that I am not the universal arbiter of the value of life, but I would apply my value system situationally. I would certainly defend my life or the lives of my family members to the death if need be. I don't believe I'd do the same for my neighbors, and I know I wouldn't do it for complete strangers with whom I have no relationship. But the "all life is sacred" camp makes absolutely no sense.

I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.

Just saw this and well-said! Hope you got that my post was in response to the one just before yours.

know1

jeffbr said:

hedonist said:

(and...as to the importance of one's life - true, it's subjective, but my life and the lives of those I love are worth my defending. I don't consider survival an "extension" of life.)

This is something I've tried to express before, and it's exactly how I feel. This notion that all human life has equal value and some sort of sanctity is nuts to me. We all make value judgements on everything we do every day. Value is totally subjective for most things. I certainly value my life and the lives of my family and friends more highly than I do my neighbors' lives. I value my neighbors' lives more highly than I do someone across the world who I don't know. The lives of these violent perpetrators have very low value to me. Many of them hold negative value to me, meaning that I believe we'd be better off without them taking another breath of air. Now I know that I am not the universal arbiter of the value of life, but I would apply my value system situationally. I would certainly defend my life or the lives of my family members to the death if need be. I don't believe I'd do the same for my neighbors, and I know I wouldn't do it for complete strangers with whom I have no relationship. But the "all life is sacred" camp makes absolutely no sense.

I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.

And the "perpetrator" values his/her life more than yours and tries to shoot you. Which of you two who want to kill each other is right? Is it really for you to decide that that it's OK to end their life?

And If you still have the power to end their life, than they haven't killed you yet and our society has not made laws that grant the death penalty for threats or assaults or robberies. You're going outside what society has lawfully deemed acceptable at that point.

And I find that people who take comfort (and some even joy) at the thought they can mete out their own brand of justice/retribution on people they don't agree with a bit on the disgusting side.

know1

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I feel nothing for people who harm innocents. And when these innocents are women and children...

But who determines who's innocent? It might be easier in the case of a child, but what adult is actually "innocent"?

And for the record, I'm not going to sit there like a monk and be killed. I would try to avoid it. I just draw the line at killing someone else to "extend" my own life. What made my life more important than theirs.

Say nothing of the fact that when you are 'defending' yourself... you are defending yourself.

If I'm reading you correctly, you have said that the person accosting you might be more deserving of life so you shouldn't do anything to him?

Excuse me for saying so, but this is nonsense unless there's something we don't know about you.

You'e not reading it correctly. The biggest reason I wouldn't kill someone - "defending myself" or not - is that I think killing someone is the ultimate wrong...regardless of your personal justification for doing it.

And there are a bunch of other smaller reasons why I think it is wrong as well.

hedonist

know1 said:

And the "perpetrator" values his/her life more than yours and tries to shoot you. Which of you two who want to kill each other is right? Is it really for you to decide that that it's OK to end their life?

And If you still have the power to end their life, than they haven't killed you yet and our society has not made laws that grant the death penalty for threats or assaults or robberies. You're going outside what society has lawfully deemed acceptable at that point.

And I find that people who take comfort (and some even joy) at the thought they can mete out their own brand of justice/retribution on people they don't agree with a bit on the disgusting side.

Who is right? The person minding their business, the person who didn't initiate an attack. And if someone tries to shoot me, I can assume they want me either incapacitated or dead.

(As for haven't killing me "yet"? That makes no sense, know1...once I'm dead, can't look back with a coulda/shoulda mindset. The instinct to survive is strong, and I'll bet most would do whatever they could to stay alive. This isn't wrong at all, to me.)

Thirty Bills Unpaid

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I feel nothing for people who harm innocents. And when these innocents are women and children...

But who determines who's innocent? It might be easier in the case of a child, but what adult is actually "innocent"?

And for the record, I'm not going to sit there like a monk and be killed. I would try to avoid it. I just draw the line at killing someone else to "extend" my own life. What made my life more important than theirs.

Say nothing of the fact that when you are 'defending' yourself... you are defending yourself.

If I'm reading you correctly, you have said that the person accosting you might be more deserving of life so you shouldn't do anything to him?

Excuse me for saying so, but this is nonsense unless there's something we don't know about you.

You'e not reading it correctly. The biggest reason I wouldn't kill someone - "defending myself" or not - is that I think killing someone is the ultimate wrong...regardless of your personal justification for doing it.

And there are a bunch of other smaller reasons why I think it is wrong as well.

So forget the basic instinct of self preservation?

Some loser wants to kill you so he can have $40 that's in your pocket and you won't defend yourself or your family on moral grounds?

I admit it's an undesirable situation, but come on man... get serious. Of course it's 'wrong', but your hand is forced here.

You get one life and if some dirtbag is trying to take it, well, sorry but I for one am not going to resign myself to death because I might be stooping to the aggressor's level.

Die trying if anything, but life must hold more value than a shrug of the shoulders and a sigh when in a tough spot.

know1

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I feel nothing for people who harm innocents. And when these innocents are women and children...

But who determines who's innocent? It might be easier in the case of a child, but what adult is actually "innocent"?

And for the record, I'm not going to sit there like a monk and be killed. I would try to avoid it. I just draw the line at killing someone else to "extend" my own life. What made my life more important than theirs.

Say nothing of the fact that when you are 'defending' yourself... you are defending yourself.

If I'm reading you correctly, you have said that the person accosting you might be more deserving of life so you shouldn't do anything to him?

Excuse me for saying so, but this is nonsense unless there's something we don't know about you.

You'e not reading it correctly. The biggest reason I wouldn't kill someone - "defending myself" or not - is that I think killing someone is the ultimate wrong...regardless of your personal justification for doing it.

And there are a bunch of other smaller reasons why I think it is wrong as well.

So forget the basic instinct of self preservation?

Some loser wants to kill you so he can have $40 that's in your pocket and you won't defend yourself or your family on moral grounds?

I admit it's an undesirable situation, but come on man... get serious. Of course it's 'wrong', but your hand is forced here.

You get one life and if some dirtbag is trying to take it, well, sorry but I for one am not going to resign myself to death because I might be stooping to the aggressor's level.

Die trying if anything, but life must hold more value than a shrug of the shoulders and a sigh when in a tough spot.

Defending myself does not equal killing the other person. I said I drew the line at killing. I will do whatever else I need to do short of that to alleviate the situation. Getting out of there would be my first choice.

A lot of people on here seem to think only in black and white. There's a wonderful world of grey out there folks.

And yes, you get one earthly life, but it could end at any second for any reason. You might kill the guy and get hit by a bus the next day. Would it be worth it then?

know1

hedonist said:

(As for haven't killing me "yet"? That makes no sense, know1...once I'm dead, can't look back with a coulda/shoulda mindset. The instinct to survive is strong, and I'll bet most would do whatever they could to stay alive. This isn't wrong at all, to me.)

But until they actually kill you, you can never be 100% certain they actually will.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

know1 said:

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

I feel nothing for people who harm innocents. And when these innocents are women and children...

But who determines who's innocent? It might be easier in the case of a child, but what adult is actually "innocent"?

And for the record, I'm not going to sit there like a monk and be killed. I would try to avoid it. I just draw the line at killing someone else to "extend" my own life. What made my life more important than theirs.

Say nothing of the fact that when you are 'defending' yourself... you are defending yourself.

If I'm reading you correctly, you have said that the person accosting you might be more deserving of life so you shouldn't do anything to him?

Excuse me for saying so, but this is nonsense unless there's something we don't know about you.

You'e not reading it correctly. The biggest reason I wouldn't kill someone - "defending myself" or not - is that I think killing someone is the ultimate wrong...regardless of your personal justification for doing it.

And there are a bunch of other smaller reasons why I think it is wrong as well.

So forget the basic instinct of self preservation?

Some loser wants to kill you so he can have $40 that's in your pocket and you won't defend yourself or your family on moral grounds?

I admit it's an undesirable situation, but come on man... get serious. Of course it's 'wrong', but your hand is forced here.

You get one life and if some dirtbag is trying to take it, well, sorry but I for one am not going to resign myself to death because I might be stooping to the aggressor's level.

Die trying if anything, but life must hold more value than a shrug of the shoulders and a sigh when in a tough spot.

Defending myself does not equal killing the other person. I said I drew the line at killing. I will do whatever else I need to do short of that to alleviate the situation. Getting out of there would be my first choice.

A lot of people on here seem to think only in black and white. There's a wonderful world of grey out there folks.

And yes, you get one earthly life, but it could end at any second for any reason. You might kill the guy and get hit by a bus the next day. Would it be worth it then?

Oh. Gotcha.

You can't wait to see Heaven. Yah... it sounds pretty awesome.

* And get over yourself... of course there is grey, but if an Arnold sized dude is menacing towards you with a knife and you've got a bat in your hands (or gun for that matter)... you wouldn't be doing anyone any favours resigning yourself to death because defending yourself in deadly fashion is 'below you'.

And what if you held the key to the cure for cancer? Would stoically accepting the fate this guy intended for you be worth it then?

People. Geez, man.

hedonist

know1 said:

hedonist said:

(As for haven't killing me "yet"? That makes no sense, know1...once I'm dead, can't look back with a coulda/shoulda mindset. The instinct to survive is strong, and I'll bet most would do whatever they could to stay alive. This isn't wrong at all, to me.)

But until they actually kill you, you can never be 100% certain they actually will.

So once I'm dead, I can be certain they would have killed me? Whew!

Again, this just makes no sense. And I'm not willing to take that chance.

Signed,
One who does see life not only in grey but in the full spectrum of colors as well. Not seeing your paint doesn't render me blind.