Why are humans the only known species, witch kill each other out of greed? I know aggression is a survival skill, and apparently we do still use it a lot, but without any real need anymore... we rule the world and aren't in any immediate danger, because we "rule" the world, we are the smartest and most powerful creatures on this planet, but instead of protecting it, and taking care of it we rape it, use it, pollute it, and if we have some spare time we start killing each other, because we can... Really how smart are we??
We are not acting that different from our primal ancestors, except they had real danger, not our self inflicted ones...
Why do we do it? It is pure self destructive behavior, that's not smart, it's stupidity in in it's purest form.
Much of this post I agree with; however, other animals do kill each other over 'greed'. Chimpanzees consistently attack rival groups for greater shares of the jungle's provisions.
I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.
Isn't it fear that motivates you to kill someone else in "self-defense", though? Maybe it's braver to not kill.
Many animals are alive due to fear. It's instinct - survivalism...also the innate need to protect those we care for (including ourselves).
Fuck me if I ever step back when I should've fought for my life and then be thought of as dead but brave.
Maybe our definitions of the word are different, or you're thinking of bravado?
To me, it sounds as if you condone sitting back when one's life is being threatened.
How do do you KNOW your life is threatened? Or do you have the feeling your life is threatened, and if you feel that way isn't it possible the other person feels the same way about you, and acts out of the idea that attacking is the best way of defense? Or maybe you act first out of that thought?
And why is in your opinion killing the only way of defense? Is the world that black and white that there are just two options to choose from, killing or sitting back? In my world I do have a lot more options, but maybe I do live in a different world?
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.
By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.
Why are humans the only known species, witch kill each other out of greed? I know aggression is a survival skill, and apparently we do still use it a lot, but without any real need anymore... we rule the world and aren't in any immediate danger, because we "rule" the world, we are the smartest and most powerful creatures on this planet, but instead of protecting it, and taking care of it we rape it, use it, pollute it, and if we have some spare time we start killing each other, because we can... Really how smart are we??
We are not acting that different from our primal ancestors, except they had real danger, not our self inflicted ones...
Why do we do it? It is pure self destructive behavior, that's not smart, it's stupidity in in it's purest form.
Much of this post I agree with; however, other animals do kill each other over 'greed'. Chimpanzees consistently attack rival groups for greater shares of the jungle's provisions.
Yes, Chimpanzees do kill each other on occasion, for greater shares of the jungle, but that is in direct line with there survival skills, To provide their own group with more food en shelter supplies, Why do humans kill? Especially the western societies, not out of survival necessities. We Kill humans by thousands out of greet, Whatever name we give it, religion, freedom, nuclear or chemical weapon treats, the bottom line is always the need for more power en greet of the financially happy few, not out of survival of the species.
And the group of Chimps killing other Chimps, isn't by far on the same scale as humans killing other humans. I for one am not that proud of being human at all, at the moment, I'm just deeply ashamed!
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.
By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.
You should do just what you said.Dont be a victim! Ever!If someone wants to do you harm or puts your back against the wall trying to take from you ,strike back or become a statistic.Alot of people on here like to think they would roll into a ball and just take it rather then dish out violence or do harm to others.I call Bullshit on all of them.It is our natural instinct to survive.Just laying down and dying Isnt in the cards?And lets say that was your take,then your just letting the next victim get hurt because you couldn't muster the fortitude to protect yourself and end the cycle.
I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.
By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.
You should do just what you said.Dont be a victim! Ever!If someone wants to do you harm or puts your back against the wall trying to take from you ,strike back or become a statistic.Alot of people on here like to think they would roll into a ball and just take it rather then dish out violence or do harm to others.I call Bullshit on all of them.It is our natural instinct to survive.Just laying down and dying Isnt in the cards?And lets say that was your take,then your just letting the next victim get hurt because you couldn't muster the fortitude to protect yourself and end the cycle.
Yup. I'm not advocating arbitrary or jumping-the-gun violence at all. It's about simple self-preservation. If my life or well-being appears in immediate danger, of course I'd (at least try to) protect myself as best I could.
I can't imagine my thoughts going toward not hurting the person assaulting me.
If that paints me as barbaric in the eyes of some, so be it.
I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.
By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.
You should do just what you said.Dont be a victim! Ever!If someone wants to do you harm or puts your back against the wall trying to take from you ,strike back or become a statistic.Alot of people on here like to think they would roll into a ball and just take it rather then dish out violence or do harm to others.I call Bullshit on all of them.It is our natural instinct to survive.Just laying down and dying Isnt in the cards?And lets say that was your take,then your just letting the next victim get hurt because you couldn't muster the fortitude to protect yourself and end the cycle.
I won't repeat my statement over and over, but will anyone of you "kill your attacker"- people be so kind and answer the questions I asked you in my last post? I have gotten in to a few conflicts over the years and normally I use words as my weapon of defense, I don't have a lot of strength physically, but I know I do have a lot of convincing power in my words normally, so that is my usual weapon of defense, and Yes it saved me a lot of times, out of difficult situations. Just once I became physically, when my youngest was attacked, by a neighbor, ( she raised her hand and shouted like hell at him, so I was convinced she was going to beat the hell out of him) and I did misread her non-verbal communication and thought she would hit my youngest. I started shouting at her to protect my child, and entered her personal space, she thought I was going to hit her, so she started, thinking attacking was the best defense. I tried to fight back but missed every shot I aimed at her... End of the story was I was laying on the floor, getting the shit kicked and beaten out of me, curled up like a little ball, while my kids started looking for some help from other neighbors. My strength is my way of keeping calm in tense situations, and by my calm way of acting getting the aggression down in my attacker. This one time I tried a different form of defense, and it didn't work at all for me, I ended up heavily injured, physically as well as mentally terrified, and it costed my kids heavy mental problems by witnessing me being beaten the crap out of, It costed my kids and me months to feel safe again in our own home. Only after we had a conversation with the woman who attacked me, and talking it out like grown ups, there became a new emotionally balance in our lives, in mine as well as in hers, because I was scared of her but she also was scared of me.... We will never be good friends, but we now do have a relationship in which we greet each other while we meet. And that is enough for the both of us...
Out of fear we both became aggressive and physically.... Instead of lowering the fear the aggression only did build it up, and let the tensions rise... So this is why physically aggressive behavior doesn't work for me. In my case an aggressive approach from my side let to more aggression on her part, and physically I went down, as well as mentally. By keeping it cool and staying calm, I have experienced that I can calm down the most aggressive opponent. That's just my defense.
I my country we don't have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves, I don't say we don't have aggression, but we deal with it in a different way, most of the time. I don't say it better, cause I don't know if it is... Most of the world calls us spineless at the moment, the way our prime minister reacted on the way the Malaysian airline plane, with most of our native passengers aboard, was just shot down above east Ukraine. But it stand for the society I grew up in, and the non violent values I believe in. Call me spineless and weak, call me a lunatic pacifist, well maybe I am, a pacifist for certain... Maybe if I grew up in the US I would have a different point of view, I don't know... I don't think I can convince any of you with this story, but I find it important to share it, not to convince but to let you think, about my argument (and thereby to convince you of course, hi, hi) Our point of view is just entirely different... And both sides must be heard...
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
So only religious people kill people? Pretty insightful.
I'm a person who is strongly religious and even more strongly against killing people....to the point I would not kill a person to defend myself or my country.
Where's you get this "only" thing from? The OP never said that.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.
By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.
You should do just what you said.Dont be a victim! Ever!If someone wants to do you harm or puts your back against the wall trying to take from you ,strike back or become a statistic.Alot of people on here like to think they would roll into a ball and just take it rather then dish out violence or do harm to others.I call Bullshit on all of them.It is our natural instinct to survive.Just laying down and dying Isnt in the cards?And lets say that was your take,then your just letting the next victim get hurt because you couldn't muster the fortitude to protect yourself and end the cycle.
I won't repeat my statement over and over, but will anyone of you "kill your attacker"- people be so kind and answer the questions I asked you in my last post? I have gotten in to a few conflicts over the years and normally I use words as my weapon of defense, I don't have a lot of strength physically, but I know I do have a lot of convincing power in my words normally, so that is my usual weapon of defense, and Yes it saved me a lot of times, out of difficult situations. Just once I became physically, when my youngest was attacked, by a neighbor, and I did misread her non-verbal communication and thought she would hit my youngest. I started shouting at her to protect my child, and entered her personal space, she thought I was going to hit her, so she started, thinking attacking was the best defense. I tried to fight back but missed every shot I aimed at her... End of the story was I was laying on the floor, getting the shit kicked and beaten out of me, curled up like a little ball, while my kids started looking for some help from other neighbors. My strength is my way of keeping calm in tense situations, and by my calm way of acting getting the aggression down in my attacker. This one time I Tried a different form of defense, and it didn't work at all for me, I ended up heavily injured, physically as well as mentally terrified, and it costed my kids heavy mental problems by witnessing me being beaten the crap out of me, It costed my kids and me months to feel safe again in our own home. Only after we had a conversation with the woman who attacked me, and talking it out like grown ups, there became a new emotionally balance in our lives, in mine as well as in hers, because I was scared of her but she also was scared of me.... We will never be good friends, but we now do have a relationship in which we greet each other while we meet. Ansd that is enough for the both of us...
Out of fear we both became aggressive and physically.... Instead of lowering the fear the aggression only did build it up, and let the tensions rise... So this is why physically aggressive behavior doesn't work for me. In my case an aggressive approach from my side let to more aggression on her part, and physically I went down, as well as mentally. By keeping it cool and staying calm, I have experienced that I can calm down the most aggressive opponent. That's just my defense.
I my country we don't have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves, I don't say we don't have aggression, but we deal with it in a different way, most of the time. I don't say it better, cause in don't know if it is... Most of the world call us spineless, the way our prime minister reacted on the way the Malaysian airline plane, with most of our native passengers aboard, was just shot down above east Ukraine. But it stand for the society I grew up in, and the non violent values I believe in. Call me spineless and weak, call me a lunatic pacifist, well maybe I am, a pacifist for certain... Maybe if I grew up in the US I would have a different point of view, I don't know... I don't think I can convince any of you with this story, but I find it important to share it, not to convince but to let you think, about my argument (and thereby to convince you of course, hi, hi) Our point of view is just entirely different...
I respect what your saying but I think we are talking about 2 different situations.In your situation,I agree why not try to diffuse a situation before it becomes overblown.I can handle myself physically but never want to throw blows if not 100% necessary.Talking for me usually can also avoid more heated conflict. The other is a conflict brought to you in a violent or aggressive way.A crime being Commited against you or your family/loved ones.Sometimes one has to react to not become a victim.You don't have to seek violence at all,but sometimes it is necessary.Thats ok too.And you did the right thing protecting your child.She was not hurt ,you protected her even at your own peril.Kudos to you for doing the right thing.
I won't repeat my statement over and over, but will anyone of you "kill your attacker"- people be so kind and answer the questions I asked you in my last post? I have gotten in to a few conflicts over the years and normally I use words as my weapon of defense, I don't have a lot of strength physically, but I know I do have a lot of convincing power in my words normally, so that is my usual weapon of defense, and Yes it saved me a lot of times, out of difficult situations. Just once I became physically, when my youngest was attacked, by a neighbor, ( she raised her hand and shouted like hell at him, so I was convinced she was going to beat the hell out of him) and I did misread her non-verbal communication and thought she would hit my youngest. I started shouting at her to protect my child, and entered her personal space, she thought I was going to hit her, so she started, thinking attacking was the best defense. I tried to fight back but missed every shot I aimed at her... End of the story was I was laying on the floor, getting the shit kicked and beaten out of me, curled up like a little ball, while my kids started looking for some help from other neighbors. My strength is my way of keeping calm in tense situations, and by my calm way of acting getting the aggression down in my attacker. This one time I tried a different form of defense, and it didn't work at all for me, I ended up heavily injured, physically as well as mentally terrified, and it costed my kids heavy mental problems by witnessing me being beaten the crap out of, It costed my kids and me months to feel safe again in our own home. Only after we had a conversation with the woman who attacked me, and talking it out like grown ups, there became a new emotionally balance in our lives, in mine as well as in hers, because I was scared of her but she also was scared of me.... We will never be good friends, but we now do have a relationship in which we greet each other while we meet. And that is enough for the both of us...
Out of fear we both became aggressive and physically.... Instead of lowering the fear the aggression only did build it up, and let the tensions rise... So this is why physically aggressive behavior doesn't work for me. In my case an aggressive approach from my side let to more aggression on her part, and physically I went down, as well as mentally. By keeping it cool and staying calm, I have experienced that I can calm down the most aggressive opponent. That's just my defense.
I my country we don't have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves, I don't say we don't have aggression, but we deal with it in a different way, most of the time. I don't say it better, cause I don't know if it is... Most of the world calls us spineless at the moment, the way our prime minister reacted on the way the Malaysian airline plane, with most of our native passengers aboard, was just shot down above east Ukraine. But it stand for the society I grew up in, and the non violent values I believe in. Call me spineless and weak, call me a lunatic pacifist, well maybe I am, a pacifist for certain... Maybe if I grew up in the US I would have a different point of view, I don't know... I don't think I can convince any of you with this story, but I find it important to share it, not to convince but to let you think, about my argument (and thereby to convince you of course, hi, hi) Our point of view is just entirely different... And both sides must be heard...
I'm sorry, I thought I had responded up there. And I guess I look at it more as of a save myself vs "kill my attacker" thing. I don't really give a shit if some sick fuck is hurt, incapacitated, or killed in the course of trying to do the same to another, to me. I value my own life more. Again, sorry...but I'm giving an honest answer here.
I think there's a difference between misunderstandings / a neighborhood argument (even going as far as it did; I'm sorry you and your child had to experience that), vs attempted rape, beatings and the like.
To me, this isn't about guns or bearing arms - in fact, I don't believe I've mentioned either in this thread - it's about doing and using what you can to protect yourself in that moment.
I.m afraid you misted the point I'm trying to make... I did not act in the right way at all. I misjudged the situation, she didn't raise her hand to hit my son, but to point out the way a rock flew over her fens, of which she thought my son threw it, which he didn't BTW. She was afraid she or her own son could get hurt if more stones got thrown over. I didn't protect my child, as was my intention, I caused him a great fear, It cost us months for him and my other boy to feel save when being at my place, cause the only thing I did was prove them, that I wasn't able to protect them, In which they both had up until than, strongly believed in....
We both just tried to protect our kids.... and look where it ended up.... If we just started with talking non of this would have ever happened...
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
Why are humans the only known species, witch kill each other out of greed? I know aggression is a survival skill, and apparently we do still use it a lot, but without any real need anymore... we rule the world and aren't in any immediate danger, because we "rule" the world, we are the smartest and most powerful creatures on this planet, but instead of protecting it, and taking care of it we rape it, use it, pollute it, and if we have some spare time we start killing each other, because we can... Really how smart are we??
We are not acting that different from our primal ancestors, except they had real danger, not our self inflicted ones...
Why do we do it? It is pure self destructive behavior, that's not smart, it's stupidity in in it's purest form.
Much of this post I agree with; however, other animals do kill each other over 'greed'. Chimpanzees consistently attack rival groups for greater shares of the jungle's provisions.
Yes, Chimpanzees do kill each other on occasion, for greater shares of the jungle, but that is in direct line with there survival skills, To provide their own group with more food en shelter supplies, Why do humans kill? Especially the western societies, not out of survival necessities. We Kill humans by thousands out of greet, Whatever name we give it, religion, freedom, nuclear or chemical weapon treats, the bottom line is always the need for more power en greet of the financially happy few, not out of survival of the species.
And the group of Chimps killing other Chimps, isn't by far on the same scale as humans killing other humans. I for one am not that proud of being human at all, at the moment, I'm just deeply ashamed!
Some things... we cant explain. We try to, but human nature is fallible. I'm not making excuses... I'm just saying we are animals and some of the things humans do cannot be exactly defined.
For the record, you are correct when you say And the group of Chimps killing other Chimps, isn't by far on the same scale as humans killing other humans . Chimpanzees kill each other at a much more prolific rate than humans when we compare populations- it's very disproportionate.
As a parent, I placed my son in Kickboxing at an early age. He still goes.
Outside of controlled spars with the friends he trains with... he will not fight competitively (both his and my shared position). I intended for him to know how to defend himself if he was ever placed in harm's way. In other words, if some loser ever forced him to defend himself or else be harmed, I wished for him to be confident that he could handle himself.
The message has been to use words, but if words fail... I don't want my son taking a beating or worse because some asshole pushed matters.
I cannot believe people are actually coming on this thread serious about placing the value of their lives or their loved ones' lives below that of a street thug. Completely ridiculous.
As a parent, I placed my son in Kickboxing at an early age. He still goes.
Outside of controlled spars with the friends he trains with... he will not fight competitively (both his and my shared position). I intended for him to know how to defend himself if he was ever placed in harm's way. In other words, if some loser ever forced him to defend himself or else be harmed, I wished for him to be confident that he could handle himself.
The message has been to use words, but if words fail... I don't want my son taking a beating or worse because some asshole pushed matters.
I cannot believe people are actually coming on this thread serious about placing the value of their lives or their loved ones' lives below that of a street thug. Completely ridiculous.
"Which species displays the most violent tendencies toward its own kind? Answered by Animal Planet
Group Animal Planet Out of all the mammals on Earth, only chimpanzees and humans tend to enact lethal violence upon members of their own species. Other mammals may display aggression or violence in order to compete for food, territory or mates, but rarely act so violently as to kill their competitors.
Scientists have observed chimpanzees forming raiding parties that attack stragglers from neighboring groups of chimps. These attacks are vicious, with several chimps from the raiding party attacking a single victim. Renowned primatologist Dr. Jane Goodall witnessed a battle for territory among chimps that lasted four years. In the end, one group of chimps killed every chimp in the opposing group. Male chimps have also been known to commit infanticide, though its not definitively clear why the infant chimps are killed [source: Jane Goodall Institute of Canada].
A 10-year study completed in 2010 tried to explain the chimps' violent group behavior. The study of chimps in Uganda by a University of Michigan primate expert determined that group violence between chimpanzees had to do with groups expanding their territory at the expense, and lives, of other chimps that stood in the way. Once the other chimps were dead, the expansionist group moved into the territory and began to enjoy its resources, such as its fruits and the new, wider area in which to socialize [source: physorg].
But as a species, it's hard to beat human beings on the "most violent" scale. While we are capable of using reason and weighing the consequences of our actions -- something a good many people do throughout their lives -- we're also able to design effective ways to hurt seriously or even kill each other. From primitive stone tools adapted into weapons to powerful nuclear bombs, we've turned violence into a science. Our species is responsible for the extinction of thousands of other species, and we're no slouches at killing each other off. One need only look to some of history's most "successful" mass murderers for evidence of that. Monsters such as Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung and Pol Pot are among the prime exemplars of violence within a species."
"A 2006 paper reviewed evidence from five separate chimpanzee populations in Africa, groups that have all been scientifically monitored for many years. The average "conservatively estimated risk of violent death" was 271 per 100,000 individuals per year. If that seems like a low rate, consider that a chimpanzee's social circle is limited to about 50 friends and close acquaintances. This means that chimpanzees can expect a member of their circle to be murdered once every seven years. Such a rate of violence would be intolerable in human society."
"When asked what chimpanzees are like, Jane Goodall frequently responds: “I used to think that they’re like us, only better. Then I realized that, no, they’re exactly like us.” By comparison, though, you’d have to add that chimpanzees (and not just the bonobos), are remarkably peaceful by comparison. Perhaps you could say: “They’re exactly like us, but without the same level of self-deception.”" - See more at: http://www.earthintransition.org/2012/05/why-chimpanzees-kill/#sthash.NTBpI8rQ.dpuf
What is your source?
Post edited by Aafke on
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
One lesson, which may surprise cynics, is that humans are more peaceful than chimps. The rate of killing Dr Mitani reports is between one-and-a-half and five times that seen in human agricultural societies—and between five and 17 times higher than attrition due to warfare among hunter-gatherers, who could have less need to defend territory than farmers.
As a parent, I placed my son in Kickboxing at an early age. He still goes.
Outside of controlled spars with the friends he trains with... he will not fight competitively (both his and my shared position). I intended for him to know how to defend himself if he was ever placed in harm's way. In other words, if some loser ever forced him to defend himself or else be harmed, I wished for him to be confident that he could handle himself.
The message has been to use words, but if words fail... I don't want my son taking a beating or worse because some asshole pushed matters.
I cannot believe people are actually coming on this thread serious about placing the value of their lives or their loved ones' lives below that of a street thug. Completely ridiculous.
As a parent, I placed my son in Kickboxing at an early age. He still goes.
Outside of controlled spars with the friends he trains with... he will not fight competitively (both his and my shared position). I intended for him to know how to defend himself if he was ever placed in harm's way. In other words, if some loser ever forced him to defend himself or else be harmed, I wished for him to be confident that he could handle himself.
The message has been to use words, but if words fail... I don't want my son taking a beating or worse because some asshole pushed matters.
I cannot believe people are actually coming on this thread serious about placing the value of their lives or their loved ones' lives below that of a street thug. Completely ridiculous.
Agree 100%.Mind blowing right?
Mind... freaking... blowing.
But with all you've said I don't hear any arguments when killing is the only option of defense...Í told you in many details why for me it isn't... are the only attackers street thug? I know my neighbor is pure white trash. in the way she walks, talks and dresses, and I was misguided by my own prejudice. How could you or he be sure about your judgement?
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
Any 'attacker' is an attacker. They can be a 'street thug' or a person dressed in a $1000 suit. Who cares? We are talking about self defence. One person initiates... and one person is forced to defend themselves from their aggressor.
And I never said killing is the only option of defence... and neither has anyone else if memory serves me correct.
1. 'If possible'... talk it out. 2. 'If possible'... talk it out some more. 3. Walk away if the opportunity presents itself. 3. 'If forced'... respond with the level of aggression the situation demands from you to ensure no harm befalls you or your loved ones. If 'killing someone' is a result of this then I guess that's the way it goes- the aggressor went looking for trouble and bit off more than they could handle.
Every situation is unique, but defend yourself if you need to. If some person wants my wallet and is waving a knife at me... they can have my wallet. If someone wants to cut my neck... that's a different story.
I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.
By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.
You should do just what you said.Dont be a victim! Ever!If someone wants to do you harm or puts your back against the wall trying to take from you ,strike back or become a statistic.Alot of people on here like to think they would roll into a ball and just take it rather then dish out violence or do harm to others.I call Bullshit on all of them.It is our natural instinct to survive.Just laying down and dying Isnt in the cards?And lets say that was your take,then your just letting the next victim get hurt because you couldn't muster the fortitude to protect yourself and end the cycle.
I won't repeat my statement over and over, but will anyone of you "kill your attacker"- people be so kind and answer the questions I asked you in my last post? I have gotten in to a few conflicts over the years and normally I use words as my weapon of defense, I don't have a lot of strength physically, but I know I do have a lot of convincing power in my words normally, so that is my usual weapon of defense, and Yes it saved me a lot of times, out of difficult situations. Just once I became physically, when my youngest was attacked, by a neighbor, ( she raised her hand and shouted like hell at him, so I was convinced she was going to beat the hell out of him) and I did misread her non-verbal communication and thought she would hit my youngest. I started shouting at her to protect my child, and entered her personal space, she thought I was going to hit her, so she started, thinking attacking was the best defense. I tried to fight back but missed every shot I aimed at her... End of the story was I was laying on the floor, getting the shit kicked and beaten out of me, curled up like a little ball, while my kids started looking for some help from other neighbors. My strength is my way of keeping calm in tense situations, and by my calm way of acting getting the aggression down in my attacker. This one time I tried a different form of defense, and it didn't work at all for me, I ended up heavily injured, physically as well as mentally terrified, and it costed my kids heavy mental problems by witnessing me being beaten the crap out of, It costed my kids and me months to feel safe again in our own home. Only after we had a conversation with the woman who attacked me, and talking it out like grown ups, there became a new emotionally balance in our lives, in mine as well as in hers, because I was scared of her but she also was scared of me.... We will never be good friends, but we now do have a relationship in which we greet each other while we meet. And that is enough for the both of us...
Out of fear we both became aggressive and physically.... Instead of lowering the fear the aggression only did build it up, and let the tensions rise... So this is why physically aggressive behavior doesn't work for me. In my case an aggressive approach from my side let to more aggression on her part, and physically I went down, as well as mentally. By keeping it cool and staying calm, I have experienced that I can calm down the most aggressive opponent. That's just my defense.
I my country we don't have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves, I don't say we don't have aggression, but we deal with it in a different way, most of the time. I don't say it better, cause I don't know if it is... Most of the world calls us spineless at the moment, the way our prime minister reacted on the way the Malaysian airline plane, with most of our native passengers aboard, was just shot down above east Ukraine. But it stand for the society I grew up in, and the non violent values I believe in. Call me spineless and weak, call me a lunatic pacifist, well maybe I am, a pacifist for certain... Maybe if I grew up in the US I would have a different point of view, I don't know... I don't think I can convince any of you with this story, but I find it important to share it, not to convince but to let you think, about my argument (and thereby to convince you of course, hi, hi) Our point of view is just entirely different... And both sides must be heard...
Re highlighted above- that's an interesting question. I was attacked a couple of weeks ago by a stranger who, completely unprovoked, punched me in the back of the head. I did not kill my attacker. I used my reflexes, quick thinking and stealth to get away with no further harm. But had my attacker done the same to one of the two very dearly loved ones I was with I think, I hope I would have done that person great bodily harm, possible enough to kill him. Yes, I would have.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
Brainlux, I've read your experience, and admired your actions. It's a horrible experience you have been going though, and in my opinion you've been acting in the best way in the circumstances you had to deal with. I understand what you're saying, and tried to explain that under these circumstances I also acted more violent toward my neighbor, although I didn't took the first physically action. I hope you would act in the same way if your loved one was attacvked. because I do still strongly believe that with a nonviolent approach, the less harm will be done.
Strength to Love (1963) Martin Luther King, Jr. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction. So when Jesus says “Love your enemies,” he is setting forth a profound and ultimately inescapable admonition. Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies– or else? The chain reaction of evil–hate begetting hate, wars producing wars–must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
dignin - "pretty hard on Aafke and others?" I thought this has been a civil discussion so far, despite differences.
And to Aafke, I don't disagree with MLK's sentiments, but I can't see how defending yourself or your loved ones is hate; it's just that - defending yourself (so maybe more about love - of oneself and dear ones?). How can that difference not be acknowledged?
Comments
Fuck me if I ever step back when I should've fought for my life and then be thought of as dead but brave.
Maybe our definitions of the word are different, or you're thinking of bravado?
To me, it sounds as if you condone sitting back when one's life is being threatened.
And why is in your opinion killing the only way of defense? Is the world that black and white that there are just two options to choose from, killing or sitting back? In my world I do have a lot more options, but maybe I do live in a different world?
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.
And the group of Chimps killing other Chimps, isn't by far on the same scale as humans killing other humans. I for one am not that proud of being human at all, at the moment, I'm just deeply ashamed!
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
I can't imagine my thoughts going toward not hurting the person assaulting me.
If that paints me as barbaric in the eyes of some, so be it.
I have gotten in to a few conflicts over the years and normally I use words as my weapon of defense, I don't have a lot of strength physically, but I know I do have a lot of convincing power in my words normally, so that is my usual weapon of defense, and Yes it saved me a lot of times, out of difficult situations.
Just once I became physically, when my youngest was attacked, by a neighbor, ( she raised her hand and shouted like hell at him, so I was convinced she was going to beat the hell out of him) and I did misread her non-verbal communication and thought she would hit my youngest. I started shouting at her to protect my child, and entered her personal space, she thought I was going to hit her, so she started, thinking attacking was the best defense. I tried to fight back but missed every shot I aimed at her... End of the story was I was laying on the floor, getting the shit kicked and beaten out of me, curled up like a little ball, while my kids started looking for some help from other neighbors.
My strength is my way of keeping calm in tense situations, and by my calm way of acting getting the aggression down in my attacker. This one time I tried a different form of defense, and it didn't work at all for me, I ended up heavily injured, physically as well as mentally terrified, and it costed my kids heavy mental problems by witnessing me being beaten the crap out of, It costed my kids and me months to feel safe again in our own home. Only after we had a conversation with the woman who attacked me, and talking it out like grown ups, there became a new emotionally balance in our lives, in mine as well as in hers, because I was scared of her but she also was scared of me.... We will never be good friends, but we now do have a relationship in which we greet each other while we meet. And that is enough for the both of us...
Out of fear we both became aggressive and physically.... Instead of lowering the fear the aggression only did build it up, and let the tensions rise... So this is why physically aggressive behavior doesn't work for me. In my case an aggressive approach from my side let to more aggression on her part, and physically I went down, as well as mentally. By keeping it cool and staying calm, I have experienced that I can calm down the most aggressive opponent. That's just my defense.
I my country we don't have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves, I don't say we don't have aggression, but we deal with it in a different way, most of the time. I don't say it better, cause I don't know if it is... Most of the world calls us spineless at the moment, the way our prime minister reacted on the way the Malaysian airline plane, with most of our native passengers aboard, was just shot down above east Ukraine. But it stand for the society I grew up in, and the non violent values I believe in. Call me spineless and weak, call me a lunatic pacifist, well maybe I am, a pacifist for certain... Maybe if I grew up in the US I would have a different point of view, I don't know... I don't think I can convince any of you with this story, but I find it important to share it, not to convince but to let you think, about my argument (and thereby to convince you of course, hi, hi) Our point of view is just entirely different...
And both sides must be heard...
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
The other is a conflict brought to you in a violent or aggressive way.A crime being Commited against you or your family/loved ones.Sometimes one has to react to not become a victim.You don't have to seek violence at all,but sometimes it is necessary.Thats ok too.And you did the right thing protecting your child.She was not hurt ,you protected her even at your own peril.Kudos to you for doing the right thing.
I think there's a difference between misunderstandings / a neighborhood argument (even going as far as it did; I'm sorry you and your child had to experience that), vs attempted rape, beatings and the like.
To me, this isn't about guns or bearing arms - in fact, I don't believe I've mentioned either in this thread - it's about doing and using what you can to protect yourself in that moment.
We both just tried to protect our kids.... and look where it ended up.... If we just started with talking non of this would have ever happened...
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
For the record, you are correct when you say And the group of Chimps killing other Chimps, isn't by far on the same scale as humans killing other humans . Chimpanzees kill each other at a much more prolific rate than humans when we compare populations- it's very disproportionate.
Outside of controlled spars with the friends he trains with... he will not fight competitively (both his and my shared position). I intended for him to know how to defend himself if he was ever placed in harm's way. In other words, if some loser ever forced him to defend himself or else be harmed, I wished for him to be confident that he could handle himself.
The message has been to use words, but if words fail... I don't want my son taking a beating or worse because some asshole pushed matters.
I cannot believe people are actually coming on this thread serious about placing the value of their lives or their loved ones' lives below that of a street thug. Completely ridiculous.
Group
Animal Planet
Out of all the mammals on Earth, only chimpanzees and humans tend to enact lethal violence upon members of their own species. Other mammals may display aggression or violence in order to compete for food, territory or mates, but rarely act so violently as to kill their competitors.
Scientists have observed chimpanzees forming raiding parties that attack stragglers from neighboring groups of chimps. These attacks are vicious, with several chimps from the raiding party attacking a single victim. Renowned primatologist Dr. Jane Goodall witnessed a battle for territory among chimps that lasted four years. In the end, one group of chimps killed every chimp in the opposing group. Male chimps have also been known to commit infanticide, though its not definitively clear why the infant chimps are killed [source: Jane Goodall Institute of Canada].
A 10-year study completed in 2010 tried to explain the chimps' violent group behavior. The study of chimps in Uganda by a University of Michigan primate expert determined that group violence between chimpanzees had to do with groups expanding their territory at the expense, and lives, of other chimps that stood in the way. Once the other chimps were dead, the expansionist group moved into the territory and began to enjoy its resources, such as its fruits and the new, wider area in which to socialize [source: physorg].
But as a species, it's hard to beat human beings on the "most violent" scale. While we are capable of using reason and weighing the consequences of our actions -- something a good many people do throughout their lives -- we're also able to design effective ways to hurt seriously or even kill each other. From primitive stone tools adapted into weapons to powerful nuclear bombs, we've turned violence into a science. Our species is responsible for the extinction of thousands of other species, and we're no slouches at killing each other off. One need only look to some of history's most "successful" mass murderers for evidence of that. Monsters such as Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung and Pol Pot are among the prime exemplars of violence within a species."
http://curiosity.discovery.com/question/species-most-violent-tendencies,
"A 2006 paper reviewed evidence from five separate chimpanzee populations in Africa, groups that have all been scientifically monitored for many years. The average "conservatively estimated risk of violent death" was 271 per 100,000 individuals per year. If that seems like a low rate, consider that a chimpanzee's social circle is limited to about 50 friends and close acquaintances. This means that chimpanzees can expect a member of their circle to be murdered once every seven years. Such a rate of violence would be intolerable in human society."
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424127887323874204578220002834225378
"When asked what chimpanzees are like, Jane Goodall frequently responds: “I used to think that they’re like us, only better. Then I realized that, no, they’re exactly like us.”
By comparison, though, you’d have to add that chimpanzees (and not just the bonobos), are remarkably peaceful by comparison. Perhaps you could say: “They’re exactly like us, but without the same level of self-deception.”"
- See more at: http://www.earthintransition.org/2012/05/why-chimpanzees-kill/#sthash.NTBpI8rQ.dpuf
What is your source?
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
http://www.economist.com/node/16422404
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
And I never said killing is the only option of defence... and neither has anyone else if memory serves me correct.
1. 'If possible'... talk it out.
2. 'If possible'... talk it out some more.
3. Walk away if the opportunity presents itself.
3. 'If forced'... respond with the level of aggression the situation demands from you to ensure no harm befalls you or your loved ones. If 'killing someone' is a result of this then I guess that's the way it goes- the aggressor went looking for trouble and bit off more than they could handle.
Every situation is unique, but defend yourself if you need to. If some person wants my wallet and is waving a knife at me... they can have my wallet. If someone wants to cut my neck... that's a different story.
I've got two number 3s!
Call me an idiot. As Baba used to say, "Oy yoy yoy!"
Strength to Love (1963) Martin Luther King, Jr.
Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. Hate multiplies hate, violence multiplies violence, and toughness multiplies toughness in a descending spiral of destruction. So when Jesus says “Love your enemies,” he is setting forth a profound and ultimately inescapable admonition. Have we not come to such an impasse in the modern world that we must love our enemies– or else? The chain reaction of evil–hate begetting hate, wars producing wars–must be broken, or we shall be plunged into the dark abyss of annihilation.
"The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
"Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
Non-violent resistance is more effective than taking up arms against authoritarian regimes.
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/141540/erica-chenoweth-and-maria-j-stephan/drop-your-weapons
I also think some of you are being pretty hard on Aafke and others.
And to Aafke, I don't disagree with MLK's sentiments, but I can't see how defending yourself or your loved ones is hate; it's just that - defending yourself (so maybe more about love - of oneself and dear ones?). How can that difference not be acknowledged?