Gods and killing...

Aafke

Well, if you don't see my paint, look on the art wall or at poetry, Prose, Music and Art,... hi, hi...

jeffbr

know1 said:

And the "perpetrator" values his/her life more than yours and tries to shoot you. Which of you two who want to kill each other is right? Is it really for you to decide that that it's OK to end their life?

Others have responded more eloquently than I to this, but I wanted to chime in since it was in response to my post. Which is right? We're talking about subjective value. I'm sure the perp or agressor values his life more highly than mine. I know I value my life more highly than his. Sounds like we're at an impasse if we're debating in a vacuum about whose life is more valuable. Is it right for me to decide? Hell, yes. If I am placed in a situation where I have to make a kill or be killed decision it is absolutely right, morally and legally, for me to make that decision. There is some sort of moral slight of hand required to turn a victim of a violent crime into a "murderer". One party (the agressor) is trying to commit murder, the other (the victim) is using whatever means necessary to defend their own life, up to and including ending the agressor's life. One is morally bankrupt. The other is morally justified. One would have to have a very strange moral code to confuse the two.

JWPearl

jeffbr said:

know1 said:

And the "perpetrator" values his/her life more than yours and tries to shoot you. Which of you two who want to kill each other is right? Is it really for you to decide that that it's OK to end their life?

Others have responded more eloquently than I to this, but I wanted to chime in since it was in response to my post. Which is right? We're talking about subjective value. I'm sure the perp or agressor values his life more highly than mine. I know I value my life more highly than his. Sounds like we're at an impasse if we're debating in a vacuum about whose life is more valuable. Is it right for me to decide? Hell, yes. If I am placed in a situation where I have to make a kill or be killed decision it is absolutely right, morally and legally, for me to make that decision. There is some sort of moral slight of hand required to turn a victim of a violent crime into a "murderer". One party (the agressor) is trying to commit murder, the other (the victim) is using whatever means necessary to defend their own life, up to and including ending the agressor's life. One is morally bankrupt. The other is morally justified. One would have to have a very strange moral code to confuse the two.

Thanks.. I appreciate your post and agree but I believe its a different case again with the runner and his girlfriend case, sorry forgot the name lol..

i_lov_it

know1 said:

So only religious people kill people? Pretty insightful.

Well of course not...As an Observation we do know what the Main Reason is though.

callen

jeffbr said:

know1 said:

And the "perpetrator" values his/her life more than yours and tries to shoot you. Which of you two who want to kill each other is right? Is it really for you to decide that that it's OK to end their life?

Others have responded more eloquently than I to this, but I wanted to chime in since it was in response to my post. Which is right? We're talking about subjective value. I'm sure the perp or agressor values his life more highly than mine. I know I value my life more highly than his. Sounds like we're at an impasse if we're debating in a vacuum about whose life is more valuable. Is it right for me to decide? Hell, yes. If I am placed in a situation where I have to make a kill or be killed decision it is absolutely right, morally and legally, for me to make that decision. There is some sort of moral slight of hand required to turn a victim of a violent crime into a "murderer". One party (the agressor) is trying to commit murder, the other (the victim) is using whatever means necessary to defend their own life, up to and including ending the agressor's life. One is morally bankrupt. The other is morally justified. One would have to have a very strange moral code to confuse the two.

Agree and would add that if I could keep from killing perp I would. Be in my best interest as well, increased costs, emotional toll, legal risks.

Aafke

Another one from fb...


Why are humans the only known species, witch kill each other out of greed? I know aggression is a survival skill, and apparently we do still use it a lot, but without any real need anymore... we rule the world and aren't in any immediate danger, because we "rule" the world, we are the smartest and most powerful creatures on this planet, but instead of protecting it, and taking care of it we rape it, use it, pollute it, and if we have some spare time we start killing each other, because we can... Really how smart are we??

We are not acting that different from our primal ancestors, except they had real danger, not our self inflicted ones...

Why do we do it? It is pure self destructive behavior, that's not smart, it's stupidity in in it's purest form.

Aafke

There is no right or wrong in any conflict ... there is just hurt on both sides...A lot of it!!!!

rr165892

jeffbr said:

hedonist said:

(and...as to the importance of one's life - true, it's subjective, but my life and the lives of those I love are worth my defending. I don't consider survival an "extension" of life.)

This is something I've tried to express before, and it's exactly how I feel. This notion that all human life has equal value and some sort of sanctity is nuts to me. We all make value judgements on everything we do every day. Value is totally subjective for most things. I certainly value my life and the lives of my family and friends more highly than I do my neighbors' lives. I value my neighbors' lives more highly than I do someone across the world who I don't know. The lives of these violent perpetrators have very low value to me. Many of them hold negative value to me, meaning that I believe we'd be better off without them taking another breath of air. Now I know that I am not the universal arbiter of the value of life, but I would apply my value system situationally. I would certainly defend my life or the lives of my family members to the death if need be. I don't believe I'd do the same for my neighbors, and I know I wouldn't do it for complete strangers with whom I have no relationship. But the "all life is sacred" camp makes absolutely no sense.

I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.

Good post!

know1

jeffbr said:

I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.

Isn't it fear that motivates you to kill someone else in "self-defense", though? Maybe it's braver to not kill.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

know1 said:

jeffbr said:

I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.

Isn't it fear that motivates you to kill someone else in "self-defense", though? Maybe it's braver to not kill.

Come on. Seriously.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

Aafke said:

Another one from fb...


Why are humans the only known species, witch kill each other out of greed? I know aggression is a survival skill, and apparently we do still use it a lot, but without any real need anymore... we rule the world and aren't in any immediate danger, because we "rule" the world, we are the smartest and most powerful creatures on this planet, but instead of protecting it, and taking care of it we rape it, use it, pollute it, and if we have some spare time we start killing each other, because we can... Really how smart are we??

We are not acting that different from our primal ancestors, except they had real danger, not our self inflicted ones...

Why do we do it? It is pure self destructive behavior, that's not smart, it's stupidity in in it's purest form.

Much of this post I agree with; however, other animals do kill each other over 'greed'. Chimpanzees consistently attack rival groups for greater shares of the jungle's provisions.

brianlux

If it's a matter of life or death I would think fear and survival both are at play. But it is better to not shed blood and still survive if possible.

hedonist

know1 said:

jeffbr said:

I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.

Isn't it fear that motivates you to kill someone else in "self-defense", though? Maybe it's braver to not kill.

Many animals are alive due to fear. It's instinct - survivalism...also the innate need to protect those we care for (including ourselves).

Fuck me if I ever step back when I should've fought for my life and then be thought of as dead but brave.

Maybe our definitions of the word are different, or you're thinking of bravado?

To me, it sounds as if you condone sitting back when one's life is being threatened.

Aafke

hedonist said:

know1 said:

jeffbr said:

I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.

Isn't it fear that motivates you to kill someone else in "self-defense", though? Maybe it's braver to not kill.

Many animals are alive due to fear. It's instinct - survivalism...also the innate need to protect those we care for (including ourselves).

Fuck me if I ever step back when I should've fought for my life and then be thought of as dead but brave.

Maybe our definitions of the word are different, or you're thinking of bravado?

To me, it sounds as if you condone sitting back when one's life is being threatened.

How do do you KNOW your life is threatened? Or do you have the feeling your life is threatened, and if you feel that way isn't it possible the other person feels the same way about you, and acts out of the idea that attacking is the best way of defense? Or maybe you act first out of that thought?

And why is in your opinion killing the only way of defense? Is the world that black and white that there are just two options to choose from, killing or sitting back? In my world I do have a lot more options, but maybe I do live in a different world?

rr165892

know1 said:

jeffbr said:

I find the notion of not defending oneself or loved ones cowardly rather than noble.

Isn't it fear that motivates you to kill someone else in "self-defense", though? Maybe it's braver to not kill.

No it's stupid to not fight back and let yourself get killed.cmon really!

hedonist

I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.

By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.

Aafke

Thirty Bills Unpaid said:

Aafke said:

Another one from fb...


Why are humans the only known species, witch kill each other out of greed? I know aggression is a survival skill, and apparently we do still use it a lot, but without any real need anymore... we rule the world and aren't in any immediate danger, because we "rule" the world, we are the smartest and most powerful creatures on this planet, but instead of protecting it, and taking care of it we rape it, use it, pollute it, and if we have some spare time we start killing each other, because we can... Really how smart are we??

We are not acting that different from our primal ancestors, except they had real danger, not our self inflicted ones...

Why do we do it? It is pure self destructive behavior, that's not smart, it's stupidity in in it's purest form.

Much of this post I agree with; however, other animals do kill each other over 'greed'. Chimpanzees consistently attack rival groups for greater shares of the jungle's provisions.

Yes, Chimpanzees do kill each other on occasion, for greater shares of the jungle, but that is in direct line with there survival skills, To provide their own group with more food en shelter supplies, Why do humans kill? Especially the western societies, not out of survival necessities. We Kill humans by thousands out of greet, Whatever name we give it, religion, freedom, nuclear or chemical weapon treats, the bottom line is always the need for more power en greet of the financially happy few, not out of survival of the species.

And the group of Chimps killing other Chimps, isn't by far on the same scale as humans killing other humans. I for one am not that proud of being human at all, at the moment, I'm just deeply ashamed!

rr165892

hedonist said:

I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.

By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.

You should do just what you said.Dont be a victim! Ever!If someone wants to do you harm or puts your back against the wall trying to take from you ,strike back or become a statistic.Alot of people on here like to think they would roll into a ball and just take it rather then dish out violence or do harm to others.I call Bullshit on all of them.It is our natural instinct to survive.Just laying down and dying Isnt in the cards?And lets say that was your take,then your just letting the next victim get hurt because you couldn't muster the fortitude to protect yourself and end the cycle.

hedonist

rr165892 said:

hedonist said:

I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.

By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.

You should do just what you said.Dont be a victim! Ever!If someone wants to do you harm or puts your back against the wall trying to take from you ,strike back or become a statistic.Alot of people on here like to think they would roll into a ball and just take it rather then dish out violence or do harm to others.I call Bullshit on all of them.It is our natural instinct to survive.Just laying down and dying Isnt in the cards?And lets say that was your take,then your just letting the next victim get hurt because you couldn't muster the fortitude to protect yourself and end the cycle.

Yup. I'm not advocating arbitrary or jumping-the-gun violence at all. It's about simple self-preservation. If my life or well-being appears in immediate danger, of course I'd (at least try to) protect myself as best I could.

I can't imagine my thoughts going toward not hurting the person assaulting me.

If that paints me as barbaric in the eyes of some, so be it.

Aafke

rr165892 said:

hedonist said:

I can't be inside someone else's head, but if they're brandishing a weapon and coming at me (or already have broken into my home), my own common sense and human reaction would dictate the assumption that harm or death is intended. Should I wait until I'm stabbed or shot or worse? If I'm being held down and raped and somehow have an opportunity to take down my assailant, even if that means death for him, should I not take that chance? Should I hit not quite so hard to kill but to knock them out? And how would I know where that level of strength is? If I'm defending myself, I'm defending myself.

By the way, I'm not talking about paranoia or random "feelings" here, I'm talking about measures taken to protect myself and my loved ones when in actual danger.

You should do just what you said.Dont be a victim! Ever!If someone wants to do you harm or puts your back against the wall trying to take from you ,strike back or become a statistic.Alot of people on here like to think they would roll into a ball and just take it rather then dish out violence or do harm to others.I call Bullshit on all of them.It is our natural instinct to survive.Just laying down and dying Isnt in the cards?And lets say that was your take,then your just letting the next victim get hurt because you couldn't muster the fortitude to protect yourself and end the cycle.

I won't repeat my statement over and over, but will anyone of you "kill your attacker"- people be so kind and answer the questions I asked you in my last post?
I have gotten in to a few conflicts over the years and normally I use words as my weapon of defense, I don't have a lot of strength physically, but I know I do have a lot of convincing power in my words normally, so that is my usual weapon of defense, and Yes it saved me a lot of times, out of difficult situations.
Just once I became physically, when my youngest was attacked, by a neighbor, ( she raised her hand and shouted like hell at him, so I was convinced she was going to beat the hell out of him) and I did misread her non-verbal communication and thought she would hit my youngest. I started shouting at her to protect my child, and entered her personal space, she thought I was going to hit her, so she started, thinking attacking was the best defense. I tried to fight back but missed every shot I aimed at her... End of the story was I was laying on the floor, getting the shit kicked and beaten out of me, curled up like a little ball, while my kids started looking for some help from other neighbors.
My strength is my way of keeping calm in tense situations, and by my calm way of acting getting the aggression down in my attacker. This one time I tried a different form of defense, and it didn't work at all for me, I ended up heavily injured, physically as well as mentally terrified, and it costed my kids heavy mental problems by witnessing me being beaten the crap out of, It costed my kids and me months to feel safe again in our own home. Only after we had a conversation with the woman who attacked me, and talking it out like grown ups, there became a new emotionally balance in our lives, in mine as well as in hers, because I was scared of her but she also was scared of me.... We will never be good friends, but we now do have a relationship in which we greet each other while we meet. And that is enough for the both of us...

Out of fear we both became aggressive and physically.... Instead of lowering the fear the aggression only did build it up, and let the tensions rise... So this is why physically aggressive behavior doesn't work for me. In my case an aggressive approach from my side let to more aggression on her part, and physically I went down, as well as mentally. By keeping it cool and staying calm, I have experienced that I can calm down the most aggressive opponent. That's just my defense.

I my country we don't have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves, I don't say we don't have aggression, but we deal with it in a different way, most of the time. I don't say it better, cause I don't know if it is... Most of the world calls us spineless at the moment, the way our prime minister reacted on the way the Malaysian airline plane, with most of our native passengers aboard, was just shot down above east Ukraine. But it stand for the society I grew up in, and the non violent values I believe in. Call me spineless and weak, call me a lunatic pacifist, well maybe I am, a pacifist for certain... Maybe if I grew up in the US I would have a different point of view, I don't know... I don't think I can convince any of you with this story, but I find it important to share it, not to convince but to let you think, about my argument (and thereby to convince you of course, hi, hi) Our point of view is just entirely different...
And both sides must be heard...