Gods and killing...

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  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    edited July 2014
    The only difference I see is the prejudice, in the way these pics are presented... You judge these on their appearance, but you don't know whats there story.

    Maybe the first pic, presents us, you angry as hell, ready to shoot the little boy in the next pic, who just picked your pockets.
    The third pic shows us the grieving family of the little boy you just shot, and the last one presents us the neighborhood kids, giggling by the dead body of the pickpocket you just shot.

    I know this is a really unlikely scenario, and there could be a thousand others, but the fact is we don't know ... the stories behind those pics. Sometimes, a picture can say more than a thousand word, but if we randomly interpenetrate those images, you can be very, very easily make mistakes, and be clouded by your own judgement, and prejudice.

    A agree with you there are many differences between people, every person is unique,but that doesn't mean that you can judge the value of the one life higher than, that of an other...

    One of my reasons why I dislike violence that much, especially gun violence... You judge and shoot, in the blink of an eye... In that blink of an eye it's so easy to misjudge someone on the basis of your own prejudice, but after you have puled that trigger, you killed or badly wounded a human being... In what way are you better than just a killer, the meaning of the word killer in my opinion is someone who kills an other human being, no matter what the circumstances are. Killing= killing, there is no excuse for doing so.
    Post edited by Aafke on
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    jeffbr said:

    Aafke said:

    Here is an other one, some of you strongly disagree with...

    image

    Perhaps you are more enlightened than I. Perhaps I am able to discern and make value judgements and you aren't. Who knows? I can feel empathy and compassion for those I don't know, but I value the lives of my kids and my family more than the lives of total strangers. That isn't to say the child in this picture has no value to me. But to claim that all life has equal value to an individual is just a really strange concept to me. Some lives simply do matter less to me. As I mentioned early in this thread, a cracked out violent ciminal may have negative value to me, whereas the lives of my kids I value more than my own. And based on your personal story you related above, I think that really is the same with you, but you won't admit it. You got physical when it came to protecting your child. Would you get physical and intervene in a violent dispute between two random drug addicts in an alley fighting over their last rock? I wouldn't and I don't think you would either.
    I can kind of see valuing the lives of people you actually know more than the lives of someone you don't, but there are people who value the life of some American they don't know over the life of someone of another nationality they don't. That just doesn't make sense to me.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • callencallen Posts: 6,388
    The thugs were once those darling kids and the environment to which they were subjected created what they became. It's too easy to hate.
    10-18-2000 Houston, 04-06-2003 Houston, 6-25-2003 Toronto, 10-8-2004 Kissimmee, 9-4-2005 Calgary, 12-3-05 Sao Paulo, 7-2-2006 Denver, 7-22-06 Gorge, 7-23-2006 Gorge, 9-13-2006 Bern, 6-22-2008 DC, 6-24-2008 MSG, 6-25-2008 MSG
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    callen said:

    The thugs were once those darling kids and the environment to which they were subjected created what they became. It's too easy to hate.

    Thank you, that was the point I was trying to make...
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • chadwickchadwick Posts: 21,157
    edited July 2014
    believe it... many are ruthless, useless monsterous dogshit bastards who do not give one crap about our sensitive feelings & would enjoy plucking out our eyeballs & having a thrill torturing innocent folks

    who gives a damn if they were once a beautiful child? they fucking are not beautiful children now, they are cruel as can be & they deserve to die if they attack someone minding to their own affairs & it is a fight for survival

    there are knives designed to penetrate a human skull. it is not even close to hate
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."

    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Aafke said:

    callen said:

    The thugs were once those darling kids and the environment to which they were subjected created what they became. It's too easy to hate.

    Thank you, that was the point I was trying to make...
    The thugs chose a path to violence and hate.They open themselves up to reap what they sew.When the guys break into the house they now have lowered their value as people and all civilities are off the table.They no longer get equal footing with the pics of the kids.They are making a decision and forcing the home owner if home or threatened to do the same.
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    callen said:

    The thugs were once those darling kids and the environment to which they were subjected created what they became. It's too easy to hate.

    Callen,that's no excuse.Just because someone is a product of their respective enviorment does not justify them projecting the same negative on to other.If a person is abused as a child it's NOT ok or an excuse to then go and do Abuse on another child.
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    edited July 2014
    rr165892 said:

    callen said:

    The thugs were once those darling kids and the environment to which they were subjected created what they became. It's too easy to hate.

    Callen,that's no excuse.Just because someone is a product of their respective enviorment does not justify them projecting the same negative on to other.If a person is abused as a child it's NOT ok or an excuse to then go and do Abuse on another child.
    Exactly... So it also is no excuse to shoot a human who points a gun at you, cause you just projecting the same amount of agression and violence onto this person as he does to you, and as you stated: there is no excuse for "projecting the same negative on to other.If a person"

    I frest my case!
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Aafke said:

    rr165892 said:

    callen said:

    The thugs were once those darling kids and the environment to which they were subjected created what they became. It's too easy to hate.

    Callen,that's no excuse.Just because someone is a product of their respective enviorment does not justify them projecting the same negative on to other.If a person is abused as a child it's NOT ok or an excuse to then go and do Abuse on another child.
    Exactly... So it also is no excuse to shoot a human who points a gun at you, cause you just projecting the same amount of agression and violence onto this person as he does to you, and as you stated: there is no excuse for "projecting the same negative on to other.If a person"

    I frest my case!
    No,not the same at all.That would be the premise if I had been the aggressor in the past.we are talking about innocent peeps doing there own thing while a intruder breaks in.
    If the thug is pointing the gun at me or my family while breaking into my home,on the street or wherever then he gets what he signed up for.His life becomes less valuable and mine became more valuable in that scenario because he chose his path.
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    Yes, and you choose to take his path by assulting him, at the same level he asdsults you... with violence
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Are you advocating doing nothing when threatened? Taking no action to protect yourself - not talking solely about using a gun, but a knife, tire iron, whatever is handy to preserve your life?

    Self-defense isn't assault, to me. Never will be.
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    There are other ways than protecting yourself with physical violence or using weapons of any kind, yes...
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • Let's leave it to the individuals. For those that think they are 'assailant whisperers'... let them weave their non-violent methods as they are about to get smoked. It'll probably work I'm sure.

    For others that aren't quite as confident in the non-violent methods of self-defence, use the force necessary to preserve you and yours.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    Aafke said:

    Yes, and you choose to take his path by assulting him, at the same level he asdsults you... with violence

    So let me get this straight.Using your logic in order to be morally superior to the attacker Me and my family have to be killed in order to prove that violence against violence is not the answer.So the morally correct dies and the morally corrupt lives to kill or rob or invade again.Is this correct?
    I believe you are projecting a false value to the life of someone who does not in fact value the lives of others.
    I for one would be just fine contemplating this morel dilemma while having the assailants blood cleaned out of my carpet after he tried to force himself into our peaceful enviorment.
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,047
    rr165892 said:

    callen said:

    The thugs were once those darling kids and the environment to which they were subjected created what they became. It's too easy to hate.

    Callen,that's no excuse.Just because someone is a product of their respective enviorment does not justify them projecting the same negative on to other.If a person is abused as a child it's NOT ok or an excuse to then go and do Abuse on another child.
    I knew a woman who was abducted by four young men. They locked her in the trunk of her car and sped around and then dumped her off somewhere. She was uninjured but of course was very traumatized. The young men were caught and tried. Their defense brought up several points about the young men's bad and difficult upbringing. The judge said, "That may explain what they did but it doesn't excuse it."

    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • brianlux said:

    rr165892 said:

    callen said:

    The thugs were once those darling kids and the environment to which they were subjected created what they became. It's too easy to hate.

    Callen,that's no excuse.Just because someone is a product of their respective enviorment does not justify them projecting the same negative on to other.If a person is abused as a child it's NOT ok or an excuse to then go and do Abuse on another child.
    I knew a woman who was abducted by four young men. They locked her in the trunk of her car and sped around and then dumped her off somewhere. She was uninjured but of course was very traumatized. The young men were caught and tried. Their defense brought up several points about the young men's bad and difficult upbringing. The judge said, "That may explain what they did but it doesn't excuse it."

    This is such an appropriate thing to add.

    It never ceases to amaze me how some just want to excuse people for not owning their behaviours. Too often, and well after the fact, shitbaggers want to play the 'poor me' card to excuse their horrific acts. They do so strategically because they know many people lose perspective in these situations as to who is the real victim. For most people, the person in the ground is typically considered the 'real' victim.

    Not all people who have bad upbringings go commit awful offences. And... many times people who have had excellent upbringings commit awful offences as well. It is all irrelevant- once someone crosses the line, most often knowing full well at the moment that they have crossed the line... it's a little much to expect understanding and sympathy when the deed is done.
    "My brain's a good brain!"
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    edited July 2014
    rr165892 said:

    Aafke said:

    Yes, and you choose to take his path by assulting him, at the same level he asdsults you... with violence

    So let me get this straight.Using your logic in order to be morally superior to the attacker Me and my family have to be killed in order to prove that violence against violence is not the answer.So the morally correct dies and the morally corrupt lives to kill or rob or invade again.Is this correct?
    I believe you are projecting a false value to the life of someone who does not in fact value the lives of others.
    I for one would be just fine contemplating this morel dilemma while having the assailants blood cleaned out of my carpet after he tried to force himself into our peaceful enviorment.
    I get the feeling, my repeat button is pushed in over, and over again...., but let me try to explain my opinion again.

    I don't say you and your family have to be killed, to be moral superior, but why do all of you automatically assume that if you don't aim the first shot you will be killed...

    Maybe you guys and your villeins are so used to having guns around, that in your society this is the only option, in situations like these, I don't know...

    I'm not used to having guns around, in my country we have very strict gun laws. So guns aren't that much seen around here. I think we have a different mindset. We have the right to defend ourselves, but only if the criminal has done his deed, If we use excessive force, we will be on trail as well as the offender. Excessive force, in a robbery or burglary is hitting the burglar, you may only restrain him, until the police arrives,
    If someone aims a gun at you, you may use force to overtake the gun, but not pull out your own, if you disarmed the gunman, you may not use his gun, you have to restrain him without using his gun against him.
    I f you get raped, you may kick your rapist in the nuts, to get away, but after he let go of you, you may not kick him again.

    We may not bare arms, as civilians, except people who are member of a shooting-club or hunter, about 70.000, are currently given and only after a very strict and profound investigation. I don't say assailants can't get there hands on them, but it is a lot more difficult for them, than it is in the US. These are the boundaries, which I grew up with.

    So using violence is not that excepted in my society as it is in yours, and the expectation that I have to deal with a gun violence encounter is far less than it is for you...
    Post edited by Aafke on
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    edited July 2014
    "I f you get raped, you may kick your rapist in the nuts, to get away, but after he let go of you, you may not kick him again."
    I'm by no means violent. But if I "get raped", rest assured I'll fight as hard as I can, even to the death. No one can tell me what I may or may not do to assure some asshole doesn't continue to stick his dick or some object in me.

    It's great if it works for you and your countrymen; me, not so willing to take that chance.

    Again - this isn't about moral superiority (and maybe this is where the differences in opinion - and culture - lie). For me, and I think for many others, it's about survival, and not getting killed, or hurt, not getting raped, not allowing these things to happen to ourselves and those we care most about, once the act has begun.

    Hope this makes sense because I can think of no other way to put it anymore!
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    brianlux said:

    rr165892 said:

    callen said:

    The thugs were once those darling kids and the environment to which they were subjected created what they became. It's too easy to hate.

    Callen,that's no excuse.Just because someone is a product of their respective enviorment does not justify them projecting the same negative on to other.If a person is abused as a child it's NOT ok or an excuse to then go and do Abuse on another child.
    I knew a woman who was abducted by four young men. They locked her in the trunk of her car and sped around and then dumped her off somewhere. She was uninjured but of course was very traumatized. The young men were caught and tried. Their defense brought up several points about the young men's bad and difficult upbringing. The judge said, "That may explain what they did but it doesn't excuse it."

    Exactly
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    hedonist said:

    "I f you get raped, you may kick your rapist in the nuts, to get away, but after he let go of you, you may not kick him again."
    I'm by no means violent. But if I "get raped", rest assured I'll fight as hard as I can, even to the death. No one can tell me what I may or may not do to assure some asshole doesn't continue to stick his dick or some object in me.

    It's great if it works for you and your countrymen; me, not so willing to take that chance.

    Again - this isn't about moral superiority (and maybe this is where the differences in opinion - and culture - lie). For me, and I think for many others, it's about survival, and not getting killed, or hurt, not getting raped, not allowing these things to happen to ourselves and those we care most about, once the act has begun.

    Hope this makes sense because I can think of no other way to put it anymore!

    I somehow knew this was going to be the next post.Saw it coming,I think I heard you even raise your voice.lol
    I think we are dealing with a cultural difference here.Can you imagine, it's like being a double victim .
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    rr165892 said:


    I somehow knew this was going to be the next post.Saw it coming,I think I heard you even raise your voice.lol
    I think we are dealing with a cultural difference here.Can you imagine, it's like being a double victim .

    Raised my inner voice on the last sentence...good ear :)
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    hedonist said:

    rr165892 said:


    I somehow knew this was going to be the next post.Saw it coming,I think I heard you even raise your voice.lol
    I think we are dealing with a cultural difference here.Can you imagine, it's like being a double victim .

    Raised my inner voice on the last sentence...good ear :)
    Loud and clear:)
  • jeffbrjeffbr Posts: 7,177
    hedonist said:

    "I f you get raped, you may kick your rapist in the nuts, to get away, but after he let go of you, you may not kick him again."
    I'm by no means violent. But if I "get raped", rest assured I'll fight as hard as I can, even to the death. No one can tell me what I may or may not do to assure some asshole doesn't continue to stick his dick or some object in me.

    It's great if it works for you and your countrymen; me, not so willing to take that chance.

    Again - this isn't about moral superiority (and maybe this is where the differences in opinion - and culture - lie). For me, and I think for many others, it's about survival, and not getting killed, or hurt, not getting raped, not allowing these things to happen to ourselves and those we care most about, once the act has begun.

    Hope this makes sense because I can think of no other way to put it anymore!

    Nailed it. Very well said. I suppose it is cultural, and perhaps I'm simply not multicultural enough to get it, but waiting to be raped, waiting to be assaulted, waiting to be killed, waiting to be victimized before taking action, and having that action limited to "restraining" the scumbag is hardly self-defense. If that sort of self-defense is really the law, it is doing none of their citizens any favors, and is clearly enabling the perp at the expense of the victim. But if it is also cultural that both the perp's and the victim's lives are equally as valuable to society and no judgement is allowed to occur before the cime takes place, I suppose that does explain the twisted logic that results in that bizarre definition of self-defense. I believe they started with a faulty premise, which then lead to a wacky self-defense definition codified into law. Thankfully I'm lawfully allowed to use necessary means to defend my life and the lives of my family members without being unduly constrained. I have no desire to fire the first shot or take the first punch. But I will if I believe that is what is necessary.
    "I'll use the magic word - let's just shut the fuck up, please." EV, 04/13/08
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    hedonist said:

    "I f you get raped, you may kick your rapist in the nuts, to get away, but after he let go of you, you may not kick him again."
    I'm by no means violent. But if I "get raped", rest assured I'll fight as hard as I can, even to the death. No one can tell me what I may or may not do to assure some asshole doesn't continue to stick his dick or some object in me.

    It's great if it works for you and your countrymen; me, not so willing to take that chance.

    Again - this isn't about moral superiority (and maybe this is where the differences in opinion - and culture - lie). For me, and I think for many others, it's about survival, and not getting killed, or hurt, not getting raped, not allowing these things to happen to ourselves and those we care most about, once the act has begun.

    Hope this makes sense because I can think of no other way to put it anymore!

    It makes sense to me.. And, no, it's not about superiority...But I hope my explanation also does make sense to you. We do have the right to defend ourselves but, with a lot less violence then is allowed in the US. Therefor the violent behavior in my society is less. Sure it does exist, but it's a far less prominent aspect of my society. Here are some numbers for you. In my country of every 100.000 citizens 0,87 gets killed on a yearly basis, against 5,0 in the US...
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    Thanks, Aafke. Your explanation doesn't resonate with me personally, but I can see your point for the environment / country in which you live. It's simply different.

    Are other crimes - non-murders such as rape, stabbings, beatings, molestation - as low where you are?

    Please understand - I'm not strolling around Los Angeles with a gun strapped to my hip looking for someone nefarious to take down. But I'll use whatever means I have to protect myself - myself, if legitimately threatened. I value my life and that of my husband's more than any others. It's just how it is.

    As jeffbr said, "I have no desire to fire the first shot or take the first punch. But I will if I believe that is what is necessary."
  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    edited July 2014
    hedonist said:

    Thanks, Aafke. Your explanation doesn't resonate with me personally, but I can see your point for the environment / country in which you live. It's simply different.

    Are other crimes - non-murders such as rape, stabbings, beatings, molestation - as low where you are?

    Please understand - I'm not strolling around Los Angeles with a gun strapped to my hip looking for someone nefarious to take down. But I'll use whatever means I have to protect myself - myself, if legitimately threatened. I value my life and that of my husband's more than any others. It's just how it is.

    As jeffbr said, "I have no desire to fire the first shot or take the first punch. But I will if I believe that is what is necessary."

    These are the numbers that I could find... I'm no violence expert, or Google nerd so if you can show me different numbers, I'll see them coming. But as far as my quick (Okay, not so quick...) investigation shows, The numbers in the NL are lower over all...

    The numbers for rape victims: 12% of the women in the NL - 20% of the women in the US

    The number of stabbings victims: 0,25% of the citizens in the NL - .0,98% of the citizens in the US

    Numbers on domestic violence victims: :14% of the citizens in the NL - 25 % of the citizens in the US

    Numbers on child molestation victims (estimation): 15% girls and 10 % boys in the NL - 25% girls and 17% boys in the US.

    I just think it is a slightly different world we live in, and therefor I have the luxury that I can afford a non violent approach... But I still believe it is a downward spiral, by the fear of being attack in a violent way, you will probably act more violently towards your assaulter, he on his turn, expect you to act with much more force than an assaulter in the NL, and therefor will use al lot more violence against you, to stay on top of his game, you will see his violent approach and ... etc. etc...Now you have a perfect violence circle, is it possible to break this chain, do you even want to break it?
    Post edited by Aafke on
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • brianluxbrianlux Posts: 42,047
    ^^^ I'm envious of the world you live in, Aafke- a place where rarely do people walk around with guns a place where non-violence is more the norm. My heart aches to be somewhere like that.
    “The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.”
    Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.













  • AafkeAafke Posts: 1,219
    edited July 2014
    brianlux said:

    ^^^ I'm envious of the world you live in, Aafke- a place where rarely do people walk around with guns a place where non-violence is more the norm. My heart aches to be somewhere like that.

    I hear you, it's a pure luxury... That's why most of the times, not all the time, talking is the way to solve problems, for me...
    Post edited by Aafke on
    Waves_zps6b028461.jpg
    "The meeting of two personalities is like the contact of two chemical substances: if there is any reaction, both are transformed".- Carl Jung.
    "Art does not reproduce what we see; rather, it makes us see."- Paul Klee
  • rr165892rr165892 Posts: 5,697
    brianlux said:

    ^^^ I'm envious of the world you live in, Aafke- a place where rarely do people walk around with guns a place where non-violence is more the norm. My heart aches to be somewhere like that.

    Uh Isnt pot also legal??
  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    brianlux said:

    ^^^ I'm envious of the world you live in, Aafke- a place where rarely do people walk around with guns a place where non-violence is more the norm. My heart aches to be somewhere like that.

    It'd be nice for sure but here, just not realistic.

    Aafke - I don't live in fear of violence, by the way. But should it find me, I can't see passively responding to an attack.
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