rr, if the goal is really to prevent another 9/11...Then we surely are doing things the wrong way, lets take a lesson from history.
Violence begets violence.
and the West is responsible for (too) much of the major troubles we have had in modern history.
'The Western power structure,' to be more accurate, and not to say that all our Enemies are therefore the 'good' guys, surely not!
But we are far from the good guys, good guys are not invading lands, supporting the worst of people and groups , dropping bombs, bombs that of course dont differentiate between man/woman, young/old, good/bad.
leveling cities, dropping deadly chemicals...And you call us, the good guys?
Can we all agree that Isis ISNT gonna get anywhere near America. Let's be real here. And also, the US mite as we'll go in and get rid of Isis cuz what's gonna happen is we're not gonna do anything, Isis goes on a fucked up killing spree, then we'll go in and "save" the day. So we all know the US is gonna go in, so let's just go in before Isis slaughters more innocent people. No more carnage please. The fucken world is wilding out shit!
Can we all agree that Isis ISNT gonna get anywhere near America. Let's be real here. And also, the US mite as we'll go in and get rid of Isis cuz what's gonna happen is we're not gonna do anything, Isis goes on a fucked up killing spree, then we'll go in and "save" the day. So we all know the US is gonna go in, so let's just go in before Isis slaughters more innocent people. No more carnage please. The fucken world is wilding out shit!
You want no more carnage, but also say that the U.S. Should go in, I assure you, the U.S. Is not gonna go in with Candy and cupcakes,
its gonna be carnage whichever way. Better the U.S. Just leave, and stay away.
The middle east will find its own way, it does not need the U.S.
Can we all agree that Isis ISNT gonna get anywhere near America. Let's be real here. And also, the US mite as we'll go in and get rid of Isis cuz what's gonna happen is we're not gonna do anything, Isis goes on a fucked up killing spree, then we'll go in and "save" the day. So we all know the US is gonna go in, so let's just go in before Isis slaughters more innocent people. No more carnage please. The fucken world is wilding out shit!
You want no more carnage, but also say that the U.S. Should go in, I assure you, the U.S. Is not gonna go in with Candy and cupcakes,
its gonna be carnage whichever way. Better the U.S. Just leave, and stay away.
The middle east will find its own way, it does not need the U.S.
Look, I agree with a lot of your posts. But my thinking is that these dudes are fucked up no matter who caused them to form. I'm Muslim and that form of Islam ISNT what I was taught. I'll say it AGAIN, the Islam I WAS TAUGHT, taught me that any single human being who kills 1 SINGLE innocent human being will be PUNISHED by god as if that human killed ALL of HUMANITY. That shit of cutting kids heads off and killing women, NOT my Islam. That's devil shit no matter who created them. They need to be stopped. They aren't some Muslim movement, that shits NOT Islam, I don't care what shit they spew. A bunch of barbaric psychopaths hijack Islam and PRETEND to speak for ALL of us. No, not for me, and not for REAL Muslims everywhere.
Edit- I will add, that if you're being marched into a fucken ditch and there's over 30 of you, fucken fight back, you know you're gonna die so fucken die fighting on your feet, not laying in a fucken ditch waiting to be shot. Fuck that!
Also, if the us goes in, it SHOULDNT fucken be hard, we have fucken drones, apatchies, tanks f16, whatever the fuck we want against a small ass group of barbarians, yes US, please go in and get rid of these guys. Shouldn't be hard.
I guess I can say it again, Violence begets violence.
Let the mid east deal with its own problems (many of which have been created by our(western) hands)
Violence begets violence, lets just let it be, these ancient mid east lands with rich histories, will rise again, as its always done throughout the centuries.
Blood will spill, sadly, but lets not be the ones spilling the blood anymore.
Lets work on our own country, we have our own monsters to deal with, and they sit up on the hill.
rr, if the goal is really to prevent another 9/11...Then we surely are doing things the wrong way, lets take a lesson from history.
Violence begets violence.
and the West is responsible for (too) much of the major troubles we have had in modern history.
'The Western power structure,' to be more accurate, and not to say that all our Enemies are therefore the 'good' guys, surely not!
But we are far from the good guys, good guys are not invading lands, supporting the worst of people and groups , dropping bombs, bombs that of course dont differentiate between man/woman, young/old, good/bad.
leveling cities, dropping deadly chemicals...And you call us, the good guys?
You think these kooky fuckers are going to sit down at a negotiating table? Violence is all they know and all that will stop them.
Can we all agree that Isis ISNT gonna get anywhere near America. Let's be real here. And also, the US mite as we'll go in and get rid of Isis cuz what's gonna happen is we're not gonna do anything, Isis goes on a fucked up killing spree, then we'll go in and "save" the day. So we all know the US is gonna go in, so let's just go in before Isis slaughters more innocent people. No more carnage please. The fucken world is wilding out shit!
You want no more carnage, but also say that the U.S. Should go in, I assure you, the U.S. Is not gonna go in with Candy and cupcakes,
its gonna be carnage whichever way. Better the U.S. Just leave, and stay away.
The middle east will find its own way, it does not need the U.S.
Look, I agree with a lot of your posts. But my thinking is that these dudes are fucked up no matter who caused them to form. I'm Muslim and that form of Islam ISNT what I was taught. I'll say it AGAIN, the Islam I WAS TAUGHT, taught me that any single human being who kills 1 SINGLE innocent human being will be PUNISHED by god as if that human killed ALL of HUMANITY. That shit of cutting kids heads off and killing women, NOT my Islam. That's devil shit no matter who created them. They need to be stopped. They aren't some Muslim movement, that shits NOT Islam, I don't care what shit they spew. A bunch of barbaric psychopaths hijack Islam and PRETEND to speak for ALL of us. No, not for me, and not for REAL Muslims everywhere.
Edit- I will add, that if you're being marched into a fucken ditch and there's over 30 of you, fucken fight back, you know you're gonna die so fucken die fighting on your feet, not laying in a fucken ditch waiting to be shot. Fuck that!
Also, if the us goes in, it SHOULDNT fucken be hard, we have fucken drones, apatchies, tanks f16, whatever the fuck we want against a small ass group of barbarians, yes US, please go in and get rid of these guys. Shouldn't be hard.
That's what I was talking about.These guys aren't talking for the vast majority of your fellow peaceful Muslims.Most the people they are murdering are Muslim. Im glad we are helping out on this one.Not everything we do in the Middle East/North Africa is as bad as some would have us think.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,284
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
This is legitimate.
And whether knowingly or not... it tends to diminish the significance of said events by the deflection tactic. I don't care what the US has done... the events you described are indefensible. To my way of thinking, any allusion to the US in light of such topics serves somewhat as a rationale for the behaviours.
My thoughts are it serves to get us off our moral high horse where we in no way belong.
We wrongfully claim some moral superiority and judge others for what might be culturally and morally ok for them.
ALL of this was set in motion at the start of the cold war and continues on that path.
Until we as a nation, citizens and our representatives alike, own that shit, nothing changes.
What goes on is like some kind of board game like risk is being played.
Let it all fucking implode. World is over populated anyway
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another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Can we all agree that Isis ISNT gonna get anywhere near America. Let's be real here. And also, the US mite as we'll go in and get rid of Isis cuz what's gonna happen is we're not gonna do anything, Isis goes on a fucked up killing spree, then we'll go in and "save" the day. So we all know the US is gonna go in, so let's just go in before Isis slaughters more innocent people. No more carnage please. The fucken world is wilding out shit!
You want no more carnage, but also say that the U.S. Should go in, I assure you, the U.S. Is not gonna go in with Candy and cupcakes,
its gonna be carnage whichever way. Better the U.S. Just leave, and stay away.
The middle east will find its own way, it does not need the U.S.
Look, I agree with a lot of your posts. But my thinking is that these dudes are fucked up no matter who caused them to form. I'm Muslim and that form of Islam ISNT what I was taught. I'll say it AGAIN, the Islam I WAS TAUGHT, taught me that any single human being who kills 1 SINGLE innocent human being will be PUNISHED by god as if that human killed ALL of HUMANITY. That shit of cutting kids heads off and killing women, NOT my Islam. That's devil shit no matter who created them. They need to be stopped. They aren't some Muslim movement, that shits NOT Islam, I don't care what shit they spew. A bunch of barbaric psychopaths hijack Islam and PRETEND to speak for ALL of us. No, not for me, and not for REAL Muslims everywhere.
Edit- I will add, that if you're being marched into a fucken ditch and there's over 30 of you, fucken fight back, you know you're gonna die so fucken die fighting on your feet, not laying in a fucken ditch waiting to be shot. Fuck that!
Also, if the us goes in, it SHOULDNT fucken be hard, we have fucken drones, apatchies, tanks f16, whatever the fuck we want against a small ass group of barbarians, yes US, please go in and get rid of these guys. Shouldn't be hard.
badbrains, as a Muslim, are you in favour of US interventionism here? My knowledge of Islam is limited, but isn't the second part of that statement that for anyone who saves one person, it is as if he or she has saved all humanity? I personally love that line, with the first and second half. So beautiful.
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Can we all agree that Isis ISNT gonna get anywhere near America. Let's be real here. And also, the US mite as we'll go in and get rid of Isis cuz what's gonna happen is we're not gonna do anything, Isis goes on a fucked up killing spree, then we'll go in and "save" the day. So we all know the US is gonna go in, so let's just go in before Isis slaughters more innocent people. No more carnage please. The fucken world is wilding out shit!
You want no more carnage, but also say that the U.S. Should go in, I assure you, the U.S. Is not gonna go in with Candy and cupcakes,
its gonna be carnage whichever way. Better the U.S. Just leave, and stay away.
The middle east will find its own way, it does not need the U.S.
Look, I agree with a lot of your posts. But my thinking is that these dudes are fucked up no matter who caused them to form. I'm Muslim and that form of Islam ISNT what I was taught. I'll say it AGAIN, the Islam I WAS TAUGHT, taught me that any single human being who kills 1 SINGLE innocent human being will be PUNISHED by god as if that human killed ALL of HUMANITY. That shit of cutting kids heads off and killing women, NOT my Islam. That's devil shit no matter who created them. They need to be stopped. They aren't some Muslim movement, that shits NOT Islam, I don't care what shit they spew. A bunch of barbaric psychopaths hijack Islam and PRETEND to speak for ALL of us. No, not for me, and not for REAL Muslims everywhere.
Edit- I will add, that if you're being marched into a fucken ditch and there's over 30 of you, fucken fight back, you know you're gonna die so fucken die fighting on your feet, not laying in a fucken ditch waiting to be shot. Fuck that!
Also, if the us goes in, it SHOULDNT fucken be hard, we have fucken drones, apatchies, tanks f16, whatever the fuck we want against a small ass group of barbarians, yes US, please go in and get rid of these guys. Shouldn't be hard.
badbrains, as a Muslim, are you in favour of US interventionism here? My knowledge of Islam is limited, but isn't the second part of that statement that for anyone who saves one person, it is as if he or she has saved all humanity? I personally love that line, with the first and second half. So beautiful.
Ben, I'm in favor of saving innocent lives and if that means we have to intervene, then be it. We created this shit, the least we can do is help those people dying on the mountain whatever religion they are. I think the issue the US is having is that if they went to save these people, people around the world mite bring up Gaza and say why aren't you helping those people. Look I know why we aren't going into gaza to help them, but to sit idle and let Iraq turn into hell on earth AGAIN, makes no sense. Especially when I believe Isis can be stopped EASILY. My religion can be beautiful and is beautiful when the religion is allowed to stand on it's own without fucken barbarians hijacking it and claiming they're doing "gods" work. Not my fucken god.
The world is super fucked up. What the fuck happened? Is this what our normal lives are gonna be. Wake up, eat, shit and sleep fucken war and misery? Aren't we all tired of this shit. Aren't we all tired of fighting amongst us let alone having war shoved down our throats everyday?
I'm glad you like that saying Ben, it's one that I like to and hope it conquers all. Let's try to save humanity instead of killing it.
Can we all agree that Isis ISNT gonna get anywhere near America. Let's be real here. And also, the US mite as we'll go in and get rid of Isis cuz what's gonna happen is we're not gonna do anything, Isis goes on a fucked up killing spree, then we'll go in and "save" the day. So we all know the US is gonna go in, so let's just go in before Isis slaughters more innocent people. No more carnage please. The fucken world is wilding out shit!
You want no more carnage, but also say that the U.S. Should go in, I assure you, the U.S. Is not gonna go in with Candy and cupcakes,
its gonna be carnage whichever way. Better the U.S. Just leave, and stay away.
The middle east will find its own way, it does not need the U.S.
Look, I agree with a lot of your posts. But my thinking is that these dudes are fucked up no matter who caused them to form. I'm Muslim and that form of Islam ISNT what I was taught. I'll say it AGAIN, the Islam I WAS TAUGHT, taught me that any single human being who kills 1 SINGLE innocent human being will be PUNISHED by god as if that human killed ALL of HUMANITY. That shit of cutting kids heads off and killing women, NOT my Islam. That's devil shit no matter who created them. They need to be stopped. They aren't some Muslim movement, that shits NOT Islam, I don't care what shit they spew. A bunch of barbaric psychopaths hijack Islam and PRETEND to speak for ALL of us. No, not for me, and not for REAL Muslims everywhere.
Edit- I will add, that if you're being marched into a fucken ditch and there's over 30 of you, fucken fight back, you know you're gonna die so fucken die fighting on your feet, not laying in a fucken ditch waiting to be shot. Fuck that!
Also, if the us goes in, it SHOULDNT fucken be hard, we have fucken drones, apatchies, tanks f16, whatever the fuck we want against a small ass group of barbarians, yes US, please go in and get rid of these guys. Shouldn't be hard.
badbrains, as a Muslim, are you in favour of US interventionism here? My knowledge of Islam is limited, but isn't the second part of that statement that for anyone who saves one person, it is as if he or she has saved all humanity? I personally love that line, with the first and second half. So beautiful.
Ben, I'm in favor of saving innocent lives and if that means we have to intervene, then be it. We created this shit, the least we can do is help those people dying on the mountain whatever religion they are. I think the issue the US is having is that if they went to save these people, people around the world mite bring up Gaza and say why aren't you helping those people. Look I know why we aren't going into gaza to help them, but to sit idle and let Iraq turn into hell on earth AGAIN, makes no sense. Especially when I believe Isis can be stopped EASILY. My religion can be beautiful and is beautiful when the religion is allowed to stand on it's own without fucken barbarians hijacking it and claiming they're doing "gods" work. Not my fucken god.
The world is super fucked up. What the fuck happened? Is this what our normal lives are gonna be. Wake up, eat, shit and sleep fucken war and misery? Aren't we all tired of this shit. Aren't we all tired of fighting amongst us let alone having war shoved down our throats everyday?
I'm glad you like that saying Ben, it's one that I like to and hope it conquers all. Let's try to save humanity instead of killing it.
Well said, I think unfortunately at this juncture, we have to be involved in both. Put pressure on Israel to stop this massacre in Gaza. by boycotts, stopping financial aid, whatever it takes. and we have to stop ISIS from murdering all the refugees and people who won't convert.
For whatever fucked up shit we have done in the past We can't sit by and watch genocide happen without doing something.
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Can we all agree that Isis ISNT gonna get anywhere near America. Let's be real here. And also, the US mite as we'll go in and get rid of Isis cuz what's gonna happen is we're not gonna do anything, Isis goes on a fucked up killing spree, then we'll go in and "save" the day. So we all know the US is gonna go in, so let's just go in before Isis slaughters more innocent people. No more carnage please. The fucken world is wilding out shit!
You want no more carnage, but also say that the U.S. Should go in, I assure you, the U.S. Is not gonna go in with Candy and cupcakes,
its gonna be carnage whichever way. Better the U.S. Just leave, and stay away.
The middle east will find its own way, it does not need the U.S.
Look, I agree with a lot of your posts. But my thinking is that these dudes are fucked up no matter who caused them to form. I'm Muslim and that form of Islam ISNT what I was taught. I'll say it AGAIN, the Islam I WAS TAUGHT, taught me that any single human being who kills 1 SINGLE innocent human being will be PUNISHED by god as if that human killed ALL of HUMANITY. That shit of cutting kids heads off and killing women, NOT my Islam. That's devil shit no matter who created them. They need to be stopped. They aren't some Muslim movement, that shits NOT Islam, I don't care what shit they spew. A bunch of barbaric psychopaths hijack Islam and PRETEND to speak for ALL of us. No, not for me, and not for REAL Muslims everywhere.
Edit- I will add, that if you're being marched into a fucken ditch and there's over 30 of you, fucken fight back, you know you're gonna die so fucken die fighting on your feet, not laying in a fucken ditch waiting to be shot. Fuck that!
Also, if the us goes in, it SHOULDNT fucken be hard, we have fucken drones, apatchies, tanks f16, whatever the fuck we want against a small ass group of barbarians, yes US, please go in and get rid of these guys. Shouldn't be hard.
badbrains, as a Muslim, are you in favour of US interventionism here? My knowledge of Islam is limited, but isn't the second part of that statement that for anyone who saves one person, it is as if he or she has saved all humanity? I personally love that line, with the first and second half. So beautiful.
Ben, I'm in favor of saving innocent lives and if that means we have to intervene, then be it. We created this shit, the least we can do is help those people dying on the mountain whatever religion they are. I think the issue the US is having is that if they went to save these people, people around the world mite bring up Gaza and say why aren't you helping those people. Look I know why we aren't going into gaza to help them, but to sit idle and let Iraq turn into hell on earth AGAIN, makes no sense. Especially when I believe Isis can be stopped EASILY. My religion can be beautiful and is beautiful when the religion is allowed to stand on it's own without fucken barbarians hijacking it and claiming they're doing "gods" work. Not my fucken god.
The world is super fucked up. What the fuck happened? Is this what our normal lives are gonna be. Wake up, eat, shit and sleep fucken war and misery? Aren't we all tired of this shit. Aren't we all tired of fighting amongst us let alone having war shoved down our throats everyday?
I'm glad you like that saying Ben, it's one that I like to and hope it conquers all. Let's try to save humanity instead of killing it.
Well said, I think unfortunately at this juncture, we have to be involved in both. Put pressure on Israel to stop this massacre in Gaza. by boycotts, stopping financial aid, whatever it takes. and we have to stop ISIS from murdering all the refugees and people who won't convert.
For whatever fucked up shit we have done in the past We can't sit by and watch genocide happen without doing something.
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
This is legitimate.
And whether knowingly or not... it tends to diminish the significance of said events by the deflection tactic. I don't care what the US has done... the events you described are indefensible. To my way of thinking, any allusion to the US in light of such topics serves somewhat as a rationale for the behaviours.
My thoughts are it serves to get us off our moral high horse where we in no way belong.
We wrongfully claim some moral superiority and judge others for what might be culturally and morally ok for them.
ALL of this was set in motion at the start of the cold war and continues on that path.
Until we as a nation, citizens and our representatives alike, own that shit, nothing changes.
What goes on is like some kind of board game like risk is being played.
Let it all fucking implode. World is over populated anyway
You didn't include the rest of my quote. I never absolved the US of anything.
What I am saying is that these brainwashed psychopaths can own their current actions as a stand alone. What I have read and seen leads me to think they are a medieval group of baboons at best. There is nothing culturally or morally cool with what they are doing and I'll judge them all day long- it's easy to feel morally superior to these weirdos.
What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.
The U.S. or Isis? - We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)
You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.
The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.
That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.
and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.
It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.
Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine. We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.
This is why I supported Ron Paul.
He firmly believes in a non-intervention policy, his critics from both sides were quick to label him as an isolationist. Our interventionist policies are the cause of much of the problems around the world, including having a large hand in what happens in the middle east.
We arm one country with planes to attack another country that we gave tanks to. We arm "rebels" in countries like Libya and Syria, but then when they use those weapons to attack our "friends" we call them terrorists. Our politicians steal from people in this country via the taxation system to send the funds to essentially arm these groups while it directly harms innocent people.
So yeah, I am very strongly saying that we should have never stuck our f-ing noses in it to begin with.
Here is a question for you: Let's say the US never went to war in Iraq. The US had no hand in the power vacuum in Iraq. Would you support the US's involvement in helping those civilians stuck in the mountains?
The Mountain.
Yazidis Weren’t Stranded, Pentagon Looks for Other Missions State Dept Tries to Credit US With Solving Phony Problem by Jason Ditz, August 13, 2014
The 40,000 Yazidis stranded on the mountain. That was the pretext for US military intervention in Iraq, as set out by President Obama last Thursday. The air war was commenced, and officials were talking up sending ground forces for “rescue” operations as recently as this afternoon.
But a funny thing happened when the US “advisers” got to Mount Sinjar. There weren’t 40,000 starving Yazidis stranded there. In fact, the indications are that there never were, and the Pentagon quickly dropped the “rescue” plan.
What happened? It turns out there were Yazidis already living on the top of the mountain, and while there were some refugees who fled up there, the humanitarian crisis was never what it was made out to be, and an influx of Kurdish PKK fighters from Syria quickly broke the overblown siege.
The Pentagon is trying to manage the narrative by simply saying the rescue mission “appears unnecessary,” but the fact that it was used to start a US war remains, and the State Department is doubling down, trying to spin the lack of a crisis as vindication of the war.
“President said we’re going to break the siege of this mountain, and we broke that siege,” bragged Brett McGurk on Twitter, neglecting to mention that the siege was largely mythical in the first place. The Pentagon wasn’t nearly so daring as to take credit for solving a crisis that didn’t exist.
Instead, the Pentagon is combing the countryside of northwestern Iraq, where their former casus belli was before it so rudely evaporated, and looking for other crises that they might use as a justification for continuing and escalating the war.
Officials seem to be totally ignoring the obvious question: where the false story of a massive Yazidi crisis came from in the first place. In that regard, there are no easy answers, though the obvious beneficiaries of the new US war are the Kurdish Peshmerga, which are suddenly getting flooded with Western arms to fight ISIS, and eventually, to fuel their secession.
The administration just seems grateful that they got an excuse to start a war they’ve been chomping at the bit for, and even if the excuse didn’t exactly pan out, they’ll quickly find another.
What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.
The U.S. or Isis? - We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)
You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.
The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.
That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.
and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.
It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.
Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine. We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.
This is why I supported Ron Paul.
He firmly believes in a non-intervention policy, his critics from both sides were quick to label him as an isolationist. Our interventionist policies are the cause of much of the problems around the world, including having a large hand in what happens in the middle east.
We arm one country with planes to attack another country that we gave tanks to. We arm "rebels" in countries like Libya and Syria, but then when they use those weapons to attack our "friends" we call them terrorists. Our politicians steal from people in this country via the taxation system to send the funds to essentially arm these groups while it directly harms innocent people.
So yeah, I am very strongly saying that we should have never stuck our f-ing noses in it to begin with.
Here is a question for you: Let's say the US never went to war in Iraq. The US had no hand in the power vacuum in Iraq. Would you support the US's involvement in helping those civilians stuck in the mountains?
The Mountain.
Yazidis Weren’t Stranded, Pentagon Looks for Other Missions State Dept Tries to Credit US With Solving Phony Problem by Jason Ditz, August 13, 2014
The 40,000 Yazidis stranded on the mountain. That was the pretext for US military intervention in Iraq, as set out by President Obama last Thursday. The air war was commenced, and officials were talking up sending ground forces for “rescue” operations as recently as this afternoon.
But a funny thing happened when the US “advisers” got to Mount Sinjar. There weren’t 40,000 starving Yazidis stranded there. In fact, the indications are that there never were, and the Pentagon quickly dropped the “rescue” plan.
What happened? It turns out there were Yazidis already living on the top of the mountain, and while there were some refugees who fled up there, the humanitarian crisis was never what it was made out to be, and an influx of Kurdish PKK fighters from Syria quickly broke the overblown siege.
The Pentagon is trying to manage the narrative by simply saying the rescue mission “appears unnecessary,” but the fact that it was used to start a US war remains, and the State Department is doubling down, trying to spin the lack of a crisis as vindication of the war.
“President said we’re going to break the siege of this mountain, and we broke that siege,” bragged Brett McGurk on Twitter, neglecting to mention that the siege was largely mythical in the first place. The Pentagon wasn’t nearly so daring as to take credit for solving a crisis that didn’t exist.
Instead, the Pentagon is combing the countryside of northwestern Iraq, where their former casus belli was before it so rudely evaporated, and looking for other crises that they might use as a justification for continuing and escalating the war.
Officials seem to be totally ignoring the obvious question: where the false story of a massive Yazidi crisis came from in the first place. In that regard, there are no easy answers, though the obvious beneficiaries of the new US war are the Kurdish Peshmerga, which are suddenly getting flooded with Western arms to fight ISIS, and eventually, to fuel their secession.
The administration just seems grateful that they got an excuse to start a war they’ve been chomping at the bit for, and even if the excuse didn’t exactly pan out, they’ll quickly find another.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
Man, wtf, now I'm gonna have to jump back into Iraq and catch up on this mess. Thanks for the read idris. I should've known better then to jump to conclusions without reading up. Fuck me, such a fucktard I am.
BB,We have moved on to a safe passage corridorKeep up BB..Im glad the Aussies,British and French have decided to help out with our little task of cleaning up.
The goal is to not have another 9/11 ever happen again.That is the point.If it does happen those who are responsible should be dealt with swiftly.Anyone who funded them,The govts that supported and armed(yes I know sometimes we have armed the same in the past) and trained them also. If it happens on American soil then The American people will mandate action,The Pres will have full support of both parties in House and Senate,and have overwhelming pressure to react with more then just a measured response. Why not let the UN deal with it you say?Ewww the world police! They for the most part can't handle the "Get your hands dirty stuff".Properly. I don't call for Arab or Muslim blood,I would call the Organizations who did this head.Is that what you think I'm getting at?Some anti Arab,Anti Muslim reverse Jihad? If they are fundamentalist then they don't speak for the peaceful members of that religion.There are lots of Arabs.Plenty are our friends and don't want part of this kind of crap. The whole Suni/Shite thing is there own internal squabble.I just know you can't force your religion on others and expect things to go well. So if you don't care what happens,don't watch the news,and feel we are creating the monster then what is your stance in this Isis group.Do you understand and support them in there quest for taking over the Middle East ? Your well versed on history and politics of the region,I know from convos we had back on some older threads(PJ play Israel I think,if I'm wrong I'm sorry) That you sympathize with a lot of the people in that region.I mean if you don't care ,why worry so much about who we(the west) are tangling with.It sounds almost like you think we the West are the Bad guys and at fault for everything.
Man...you admit openly that we have funded and armed groups like this...but call for the countries who do the same to be punished with 'more then (sic) a measured response'...why are they not entitled to do the same? Because you have the bigger stick? You're essentially calling for perpetual conflict...you might not be suggesting an anti-arab/Muslim reverse jihad, but you seem to think continuing our past/current failed policies is the way forward – which is a continued war and 'pre-emptive strikes' against any Islamic power structure that threatens the interests of the US, Israel, and their regional allies. The thing you’re missing in your call for more than a measured response levied at any government who funded or trained these people is that you would be calling for the bombing of the the US and her allies! ) ISIS was created, funded, directed, and armed indirectly by the US, directly by their allies. Trained in Jordan and Turkey. So I guess we will be bombing ourselves and our 'friends' after the next terrorist attack. Again, you’re suggesting knee-jerk, reactionary responses, echoing the same calls coming from the government and their presstitute propagandists.
What do I think of the IS? I think they’re lunatics. I think anyone brainwashed to kill over religion is a ‘sick fuck’….that includes muslims, jews, buddhists, and not only the rapture loving Christians, but the millions of easter/Christmas Christians and atheists in the West who support war in the middle east because of conditioned fear of Islam. Using violence to stop them is not going to change anything. I never said I didn’t care, and that comment drives me nuts…it’s like the people who tell me I’m giving up on or enabling drug addicts for supporting legalization of all drugs….just because I support a different approach to the problem doesn’t mean I care any less than you do….I think supporting unconditional humanitarian aid, maybe defensive tactics from a regional or international peacekeeping force, and a hands off policy, is the better way to help these people in the long term. You mock the UN, calling them ineffective – when the US is again largely responsible for how ineffective it is, and for making it the norm to ignore the will of the rest of the world….you laugh at the ‘world police’, yet have no problem taking on that role yourself….good ol’ western megalomania.
No, I don’t watch tv news shows….I read in-depth reporting about these issues, books, and scholarly documents, separate from the emotional blackmail and uninformed soundbytes forced on us by the mainstream. Idris and I have already mentioned in this thread why the West ARE the bad guys, more often than not, in the middle east. We kill innocent people to protect our interests in other countries, then cry bloody murder when the same happens to OUR people, ON THEIR SOIL.
Sixty years? I would say the ethnic, religious and tribal rivalries in that region date back much further than that.
I do think ISIS needs to be stopped, yes. My position has remained the same for eleven years. There was never a reason to invade back in 2003, yet invade we did. We broke that country and, yes, we do bare a responsibility to the people there. I don't think we can ever truly leave because I don't think the problems can ever truly be fixed, but ISIS can be rolled back. And it should be.
We can argue about past interventions and whether or not the US should have gotten involved. In most instances I think we are going to agree that the answer is no. Not this time, though. Not when it is happening in a vaccum created by what I believe to be the worst foreign policy blunder of my lifetime. This time the answer is yes.
My 60 years comment was in reference to what could be considered the beginning of the current US foreign policy in the middle east – when they sponsored a coup in Iran….and also to the Arab-Israeli war, which began a series of conflicts over pipelines and resources. The US has not stopped manipulating the regional politics since, and have been trying to cripple Iran since the shaw was overthrown, esp since it’s government began following an Islamic system in the late 70’s. I’ve got to say….I definitely haven’t always agreed with you, but I’ve always found you pretty reasonable….so I’m shocked to hear you calling for permanent occupation of Iraq. I’m shocked to see you aligning with hawks like McCain and Graham, and thinktanks like the RAND corporation. What you’re not acknowledging is that every time we bomb any group over there, it creates another power vacuum – this didn’t just happen in Iraq. We for the most part dismantled Al Qaeda….we dismantled Ghaddafi’s regime, we attempted to dismantle Syria’s….and ISIS is the result. Who will rise up in their place? This situation is an engineered one – it is definitely not an accident or mistake. We are allying with our enemies’ enemies, regardless of the potential threat to our future, because sectarian violence and internal strife benefits us. Balkanization, divide and conquer, call it what you will….We are running both sides of this conflict, by design, to weaken the powers of the region.
What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.
The U.S. or Isis? - We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)
You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.
The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.
That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.
and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.
It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.
Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine. We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.
This is why I supported Ron Paul.
He firmly believes in a non-intervention policy, his critics from both sides were quick to label him as an isolationist. Our interventionist policies are the cause of much of the problems around the world, including having a large hand in what happens in the middle east.
We arm one country with planes to attack another country that we gave tanks to. We arm "rebels" in countries like Libya and Syria, but then when they use those weapons to attack our "friends" we call them terrorists. Our politicians steal from people in this country via the taxation system to send the funds to essentially arm these groups while it directly harms innocent people.
So yeah, I am very strongly saying that we should have never stuck our f-ing noses in it to begin with.
Here is a question for you: Let's say the US never went to war in Iraq. The US had no hand in the power vacuum in Iraq. Would you support the US's involvement in helping those civilians stuck in the mountains?
The Mountain.
Yazidis Weren’t Stranded, Pentagon Looks for Other Missions State Dept Tries to Credit US With Solving Phony Problem by Jason Ditz, August 13, 2014
The 40,000 Yazidis stranded on the mountain. That was the pretext for US military intervention in Iraq, as set out by President Obama last Thursday. The air war was commenced, and officials were talking up sending ground forces for “rescue” operations as recently as this afternoon.
But a funny thing happened when the US “advisers” got to Mount Sinjar. There weren’t 40,000 starving Yazidis stranded there. In fact, the indications are that there never were, and the Pentagon quickly dropped the “rescue” plan.
What happened? It turns out there were Yazidis already living on the top of the mountain, and while there were some refugees who fled up there, the humanitarian crisis was never what it was made out to be, and an influx of Kurdish PKK fighters from Syria quickly broke the overblown siege.
The Pentagon is trying to manage the narrative by simply saying the rescue mission “appears unnecessary,” but the fact that it was used to start a US war remains, and the State Department is doubling down, trying to spin the lack of a crisis as vindication of the war.
“President said we’re going to break the siege of this mountain, and we broke that siege,” bragged Brett McGurk on Twitter, neglecting to mention that the siege was largely mythical in the first place. The Pentagon wasn’t nearly so daring as to take credit for solving a crisis that didn’t exist.
Instead, the Pentagon is combing the countryside of northwestern Iraq, where their former casus belli was before it so rudely evaporated, and looking for other crises that they might use as a justification for continuing and escalating the war.
Officials seem to be totally ignoring the obvious question: where the false story of a massive Yazidi crisis came from in the first place. In that regard, there are no easy answers, though the obvious beneficiaries of the new US war are the Kurdish Peshmerga, which are suddenly getting flooded with Western arms to fight ISIS, and eventually, to fuel their secession.
The administration just seems grateful that they got an excuse to start a war they’ve been chomping at the bit for, and even if the excuse didn’t exactly pan out, they’ll quickly find another.
smfh..... and normally rational people were ready to start dropping bombs over this. Really wish people would stop trusting the fucking media, and our governments
Here is a very LOOONG and in-depth analysis of the current situation,and the US policies that have shaped it. We need to stop being duped into imperialist ambition masked as benevolent humanitarian intervention. It’s the same shit every time. Fool me once shame on me….fool me twice….we won’t be fooled again.
Here is a very LOOONG and in-depth analysis of the current situation,and the US policies that have shaped it. We need to stop being duped into imperialist ambition masked as benevolent humanitarian intervention. It’s the same shit every time. Fool me once shame on me….fool me twice….we won’t be fooled again.
What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.
The U.S. or Isis? - We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)
You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.
The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.
That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.
and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.
It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.
Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine. We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.
This is why I supported Ron Paul.
He firmly believes in a non-intervention policy, his critics from both sides were quick to label him as an isolationist. Our interventionist policies are the cause of much of the problems around the world, including having a large hand in what happens in the middle east.
We arm one country with planes to attack another country that we gave tanks to. We arm "rebels" in countries like Libya and Syria, but then when they use those weapons to attack our "friends" we call them terrorists. Our politicians steal from people in this country via the taxation system to send the funds to essentially arm these groups while it directly harms innocent people.
So yeah, I am very strongly saying that we should have never stuck our f-ing noses in it to begin with.
Here is a question for you: Let's say the US never went to war in Iraq. The US had no hand in the power vacuum in Iraq. Would you support the US's involvement in helping those civilians stuck in the mountains?
The Mountain.
Yazidis Weren’t Stranded, Pentagon Looks for Other Missions State Dept Tries to Credit US With Solving Phony Problem by Jason Ditz, August 13, 2014
The 40,000 Yazidis stranded on the mountain. That was the pretext for US military intervention in Iraq, as set out by President Obama last Thursday. The air war was commenced, and officials were talking up sending ground forces for “rescue” operations as recently as this afternoon.
But a funny thing happened when the US “advisers” got to Mount Sinjar. There weren’t 40,000 starving Yazidis stranded there. In fact, the indications are that there never were, and the Pentagon quickly dropped the “rescue” plan.
What happened? It turns out there were Yazidis already living on the top of the mountain, and while there were some refugees who fled up there, the humanitarian crisis was never what it was made out to be, and an influx of Kurdish PKK fighters from Syria quickly broke the overblown siege.
The Pentagon is trying to manage the narrative by simply saying the rescue mission “appears unnecessary,” but the fact that it was used to start a US war remains, and the State Department is doubling down, trying to spin the lack of a crisis as vindication of the war.
“President said we’re going to break the siege of this mountain, and we broke that siege,” bragged Brett McGurk on Twitter, neglecting to mention that the siege was largely mythical in the first place. The Pentagon wasn’t nearly so daring as to take credit for solving a crisis that didn’t exist.
Instead, the Pentagon is combing the countryside of northwestern Iraq, where their former casus belli was before it so rudely evaporated, and looking for other crises that they might use as a justification for continuing and escalating the war.
Officials seem to be totally ignoring the obvious question: where the false story of a massive Yazidi crisis came from in the first place. In that regard, there are no easy answers, though the obvious beneficiaries of the new US war are the Kurdish Peshmerga, which are suddenly getting flooded with Western arms to fight ISIS, and eventually, to fuel their secession.
The administration just seems grateful that they got an excuse to start a war they’ve been chomping at the bit for, and even if the excuse didn’t exactly pan out, they’ll quickly find another.
smfh..... and normally rational people were ready to start dropping bombs over this. Really wish people would stop trusting the fucking media, and our governments
I agree with you, definitely some ulterior motives going on for them to reference these people as all refugees needing help.
But these ISIS fuckers are still killing innocent people. They still need to be addressed. Hopefully the Kurds can turn them back but from everything I read, ISIS is gaining more resources and leverage with every city they overtake.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
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2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,284
Heres the deal. WW2 has been over since 45. We STILL have bases in both Germany and Okinawa. We arent leaving. We never do. Hell Gitmo wax seized from Spain in 1890's? Guess what, still there.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Heres the deal. WW2 has been over since 45. We STILL have bases in both Germany and Okinawa. We arent leaving. We never do. Hell Gitmo wax seized from Spain in 1890's? Guess what, still there.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
Sixty years? I would say the ethnic, religious and tribal rivalries in that region date back much further than that.
I do think ISIS needs to be stopped, yes. My position has remained the same for eleven years. There was never a reason to invade back in 2003, yet invade we did. We broke that country and, yes, we do bare a responsibility to the people there. I don't think we can ever truly leave because I don't think the problems can ever truly be fixed, but ISIS can be rolled back. And it should be.
We can argue about past interventions and whether or not the US should have gotten involved. In most instances I think we are going to agree that the answer is no. Not this time, though. Not when it is happening in a vaccum created by what I believe to be the worst foreign policy blunder of my lifetime. This time the answer is yes.
My 60 years comment was in reference to what could be considered the beginning of the current US foreign policy in the middle east – when they sponsored a coup in Iran….and also to the Arab-Israeli war, which began a series of conflicts over pipelines and resources. The US has not stopped manipulating the regional politics since, and have been trying to cripple Iran since the shaw was overthrown, esp since it’s government began following an Islamic system in the late 70’s. I’ve got to say….I definitely haven’t always agreed with you, but I’ve always found you pretty reasonable….so I’m shocked to hear you calling for permanent occupation of Iraq. I’m shocked to see you aligning with hawks like McCain and Graham, and thinktanks like the RAND corporation. What you’re not acknowledging is that every time we bomb any group over there, it creates another power vacuum – this didn’t just happen in Iraq. We for the most part dismantled Al Qaeda….we dismantled Ghaddafi’s regime, we attempted to dismantle Syria’s….and ISIS is the result. Who will rise up in their place? This situation is an engineered one – it is definitely not an accident or mistake. We are allying with our enemies’ enemies, regardless of the potential threat to our future, because sectarian violence and internal strife benefits us. Balkanization, divide and conquer, call it what you will….We are running both sides of this conflict, by design, to weaken the powers of the region.
I'm not calling for permanent occupation. I'm saying that there are consequences to the foolish action we undertook in 2003. We are left with two choices: walk away and let monsters like ISIS roll through and butcher the people, or to stay involved and be seen as the oppressing overlords. Neither choice is good, but when the end result of the former is children being drawn and quartered, I have to look at the latter as being the lesser of two evils. I hope there does come a day when we can walk away and allow Iraq to stand on its own. I just cannot look at what is happening there and conclude that today is that day.
I realize it may be a no-win situation, and if it is, my vote is to eliminate those who would butcher children in the name of religion.
Yazidis Weren’t Stranded, Pentagon Looks for Other Missions State Dept Tries to Credit US With Solving Phony Problem by Jason Ditz, August 13, 2014
The 40,000 Yazidis stranded on the mountain. That was the pretext for US military intervention in Iraq, as set out by President Obama last Thursday. The air war was commenced, and officials were talking up sending ground forces for “rescue” operations as recently as this afternoon.
But a funny thing happened when the US “advisers” got to Mount Sinjar. There weren’t 40,000 starving Yazidis stranded there. In fact, the indications are that there never were, and the Pentagon quickly dropped the “rescue” plan.
What happened? It turns out there were Yazidis already living on the top of the mountain, and while there were some refugees who fled up there, the humanitarian crisis was never what it was made out to be, and an influx of Kurdish PKK fighters from Syria quickly broke the overblown siege.
The Pentagon is trying to manage the narrative by simply saying the rescue mission “appears unnecessary,” but the fact that it was used to start a US war remains, and the State Department is doubling down, trying to spin the lack of a crisis as vindication of the war.
“President said we’re going to break the siege of this mountain, and we broke that siege,” bragged Brett McGurk on Twitter, neglecting to mention that the siege was largely mythical in the first place. The Pentagon wasn’t nearly so daring as to take credit for solving a crisis that didn’t exist.
Instead, the Pentagon is combing the countryside of northwestern Iraq, where their former casus belli was before it so rudely evaporated, and looking for other crises that they might use as a justification for continuing and escalating the war.
Officials seem to be totally ignoring the obvious question: where the false story of a massive Yazidi crisis came from in the first place. In that regard, there are no easy answers, though the obvious beneficiaries of the new US war are the Kurdish Peshmerga, which are suddenly getting flooded with Western arms to fight ISIS, and eventually, to fuel their secession.
The administration just seems grateful that they got an excuse to start a war they’ve been chomping at the bit for, and even if the excuse didn’t exactly pan out, they’ll quickly find another.
We talk a lot about media bias here. It may be the one thing on this board I would say most of us are willing to agree is a huge problem in today's world. With that in mind, I will point out that antiwar.com has a HUGE fundraising appeal right at the top of its homepage, and doesn't draw any donations by framing a story in terms its readership does not to hear. Media bias can take many different forms.
The siege was "largely" mythical. (Largely, but not entirely.)
The administration "just seems grateful" there was an excuse to restart hostilities. (Really? They seem grateful?)
While I am sure there are media accounts overstating the situation there, this particular piece seems to be deliberately understating it. Let's not swallow it word for word just because we may want to agree with it.
This new military intervention was based on a massive humanitarian crisis that needed attention, That massive humanitarian crisis does not seem to exist, that came from U.S. Advisors.
That's the point.
Yet we are still gunning for Iraq because at the end, its about protecting our imperialistic ways/interests.
That is probably why the author said that "just seems grateful" cause it gave them an excuse to do what they've apparently wanted to do for a while.
Sixty years? I would say the ethnic, religious and tribal rivalries in that region date back much further than that.
I do think ISIS needs to be stopped, yes. My position has remained the same for eleven years. There was never a reason to invade back in 2003, yet invade we did. We broke that country and, yes, we do bare a responsibility to the people there. I don't think we can ever truly leave because I don't think the problems can ever truly be fixed, but ISIS can be rolled back. And it should be.
We can argue about past interventions and whether or not the US should have gotten involved. In most instances I think we are going to agree that the answer is no. Not this time, though. Not when it is happening in a vaccum created by what I believe to be the worst foreign policy blunder of my lifetime. This time the answer is yes.
My 60 years comment was in reference to what could be considered the beginning of the current US foreign policy in the middle east – when they sponsored a coup in Iran….and also to the Arab-Israeli war, which began a series of conflicts over pipelines and resources. The US has not stopped manipulating the regional politics since, and have been trying to cripple Iran since the shaw was overthrown, esp since it’s government began following an Islamic system in the late 70’s. I’ve got to say….I definitely haven’t always agreed with you, but I’ve always found you pretty reasonable….so I’m shocked to hear you calling for permanent occupation of Iraq. I’m shocked to see you aligning with hawks like McCain and Graham, and thinktanks like the RAND corporation. What you’re not acknowledging is that every time we bomb any group over there, it creates another power vacuum – this didn’t just happen in Iraq. We for the most part dismantled Al Qaeda….we dismantled Ghaddafi’s regime, we attempted to dismantle Syria’s….and ISIS is the result. Who will rise up in their place? This situation is an engineered one – it is definitely not an accident or mistake. We are allying with our enemies’ enemies, regardless of the potential threat to our future, because sectarian violence and internal strife benefits us. Balkanization, divide and conquer, call it what you will….We are running both sides of this conflict, by design, to weaken the powers of the region.
I'm not calling for permanent occupation. I'm saying that there are consequences to the foolish action we undertook in 2003. We are left with two choices: walk away and let monsters like ISIS roll through and butcher the people, or to stay involved and be seen as the oppressing overlords. Neither choice is good, but when the end result of the former is children being drawn and quartered, I have to look at the latter as being the lesser of two evils. I hope there does come a day when we can walk away and allow Iraq to stand on its own. I just cannot look at what is happening there and conclude that today is that day.
I realize it may be a no-win situation, and if it is, my vote is to eliminate those who would butcher children in the name of religion.
as opposed to those who would butcher children for Imperialism.
and again, even if the U.S. Didn't touch Iraq for a decade, its legacy of death will still be felt from all the chemicals we dropped over Iraq.
and now you want the U.S. To go back in to save children,
Comments
Violence begets violence.
and the West is responsible for (too) much of the major troubles we have had in modern history.
'The Western power structure,' to be more accurate, and not to say that all our Enemies are therefore the 'good' guys, surely not!
But we are far from the good guys, good guys are not invading lands, supporting the worst of people and groups , dropping bombs, bombs that of course dont differentiate between man/woman, young/old, good/bad.
leveling cities, dropping deadly chemicals...And you call us, the good guys?
its gonna be carnage whichever way. Better the U.S. Just leave, and stay away.
The middle east will find its own way, it does not need the U.S.
Edit- I will add, that if you're being marched into a fucken ditch and there's over 30 of you, fucken fight back, you know you're gonna die so fucken die fighting on your feet, not laying in a fucken ditch waiting to be shot. Fuck that!
Also, if the us goes in, it SHOULDNT fucken be hard, we have fucken drones, apatchies, tanks f16, whatever the fuck we want against a small ass group of barbarians, yes US, please go in and get rid of these guys. Shouldn't be hard.
We're just a bunch of fucking geniuses, aren't we?
Let the mid east deal with its own problems (many of which have been created by our(western) hands)
Violence begets violence, lets just let it be, these ancient mid east lands with rich histories, will rise again, as its always done throughout the centuries.
Blood will spill, sadly, but lets not be the ones spilling the blood anymore.
Lets work on our own country, we have our own monsters to deal with, and they sit up on the hill.
We wrongfully claim some moral superiority and judge others for what might be culturally and morally ok for them.
ALL of this was set in motion at the start of the cold war and continues on that path.
Until we as a nation, citizens and our representatives alike, own that shit, nothing changes.
What goes on is like some kind of board game like risk is being played.
Let it all fucking implode. World is over populated anyway
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I'm in favor of saving innocent lives and if that means we have to intervene, then be it. We created this shit, the least we can do is help those people dying on the mountain whatever religion they are. I think the issue the US is having is that if they went to save these people, people around the world mite bring up Gaza and say why aren't you helping those people. Look I know why we aren't going into gaza to help them, but to sit idle and let Iraq turn into hell on earth AGAIN, makes no sense. Especially when I believe Isis can be stopped EASILY. My religion can be beautiful and is beautiful when the religion is allowed to stand on it's own without fucken barbarians hijacking it and claiming they're doing "gods" work. Not my fucken god.
The world is super fucked up. What the fuck happened? Is this what our normal lives are gonna be. Wake up, eat, shit and sleep fucken war and misery? Aren't we all tired of this shit. Aren't we all tired of fighting amongst us let alone having war shoved down our throats everyday?
I'm glad you like that saying Ben, it's one that I like to and hope it conquers all. Let's try to save humanity instead of killing it.
I think unfortunately at this juncture, we have to be involved in both.
Put pressure on Israel to stop this massacre in Gaza.
by boycotts, stopping financial aid, whatever it takes.
and we have to stop ISIS from murdering all the refugees and people who won't convert.
For whatever fucked up shit we have done in the past
We can't sit by and watch genocide happen without doing something.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
What I am saying is that these brainwashed psychopaths can own their current actions as a stand alone. What I have read and seen leads me to think they are a medieval group of baboons at best. There is nothing culturally or morally cool with what they are doing and I'll judge them all day long- it's easy to feel morally superior to these weirdos.
Yazidis Weren’t Stranded, Pentagon Looks for Other Missions
State Dept Tries to Credit US With Solving Phony Problem
by Jason Ditz, August 13, 2014
The 40,000 Yazidis stranded on the mountain. That was the pretext for US military intervention in Iraq, as set out by President Obama last Thursday. The air war was commenced, and officials were talking up sending ground forces for “rescue” operations as recently as this afternoon.
But a funny thing happened when the US “advisers” got to Mount Sinjar. There weren’t 40,000 starving Yazidis stranded there. In fact, the indications are that there never were, and the Pentagon quickly dropped the “rescue” plan.
What happened? It turns out there were Yazidis already living on the top of the mountain, and while there were some refugees who fled up there, the humanitarian crisis was never what it was made out to be, and an influx of Kurdish PKK fighters from Syria quickly broke the overblown siege.
The Pentagon is trying to manage the narrative by simply saying the rescue mission “appears unnecessary,” but the fact that it was used to start a US war remains, and the State Department is doubling down, trying to spin the lack of a crisis as vindication of the war.
“President said we’re going to break the siege of this mountain, and we broke that siege,” bragged Brett McGurk on Twitter, neglecting to mention that the siege was largely mythical in the first place. The Pentagon wasn’t nearly so daring as to take credit for solving a crisis that didn’t exist.
Instead, the Pentagon is combing the countryside of northwestern Iraq, where their former casus belli was before it so rudely evaporated, and looking for other crises that they might use as a justification for continuing and escalating the war.
Officials seem to be totally ignoring the obvious question: where the false story of a massive Yazidi crisis came from in the first place. In that regard, there are no easy answers, though the obvious beneficiaries of the new US war are the Kurdish Peshmerga, which are suddenly getting flooded with Western arms to fight ISIS, and eventually, to fuel their secession.
The administration just seems grateful that they got an excuse to start a war they’ve been chomping at the bit for, and even if the excuse didn’t exactly pan out, they’ll quickly find another.
news.antiwar.com/2014/08/13/yazidis-werent-stranded-pentagon-looks-for-other-missions/
I am thankful that we can have this exchange of ideas free from media bias.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
What do I think of the IS? I think they’re lunatics. I think anyone brainwashed to kill over religion is a ‘sick fuck’….that includes muslims, jews, buddhists, and not only the rapture loving Christians, but the millions of easter/Christmas Christians and atheists in the West who support war in the middle east because of conditioned fear of Islam. Using violence to stop them is not going to change anything.
I never said I didn’t care, and that comment drives me nuts…it’s like the people who tell me I’m giving up on or enabling drug addicts for supporting legalization of all drugs….just because I support a different approach to the problem doesn’t mean I care any less than you do….I think supporting unconditional humanitarian aid, maybe defensive tactics from a regional or international peacekeeping force, and a hands off policy, is the better way to help these people in the long term. You mock the UN, calling them ineffective – when the US is again largely responsible for how ineffective it is, and for making it the norm to ignore the will of the rest of the world….you laugh at the ‘world police’, yet have no problem taking on that role yourself….good ol’ western megalomania.
No, I don’t watch tv news shows….I read in-depth reporting about these issues, books, and scholarly documents, separate from the emotional blackmail and uninformed soundbytes forced on us by the mainstream. Idris and I have already mentioned in this thread why the West ARE the bad guys, more often than not, in the middle east. We kill innocent people to protect our interests in other countries, then cry bloody murder when the same happens to OUR people, ON THEIR SOIL.
I’ve got to say….I definitely haven’t always agreed with you, but I’ve always found you pretty reasonable….so I’m shocked to hear you calling for permanent occupation of Iraq. I’m shocked to see you aligning with hawks like McCain and Graham, and thinktanks like the RAND corporation.
What you’re not acknowledging is that every time we bomb any group over there, it creates another power vacuum – this didn’t just happen in Iraq. We for the most part dismantled Al Qaeda….we dismantled Ghaddafi’s regime, we attempted to dismantle Syria’s….and ISIS is the result. Who will rise up in their place? This situation is an engineered one – it is definitely not an accident or mistake. We are allying with our enemies’ enemies, regardless of the potential threat to our future, because sectarian violence and internal strife benefits us. Balkanization, divide and conquer, call it what you will….We are running both sides of this conflict, by design, to weaken the powers of the region.
and normally rational people were ready to start dropping bombs over this. Really wish people would stop trusting the fucking media, and our governments
http://www.globalresearch.ca/debacle-of-a-great-game-the-islamic-state-is-and-americas-war-on-iraq-and-syria/5395402
definitely some ulterior motives going on for them to reference these people as all refugees needing help.
But these ISIS fuckers are still killing innocent people. They still need to be addressed. Hopefully the Kurds can turn them back but from everything I read, ISIS is gaining more resources and leverage with every city they overtake.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
Hell Gitmo wax seized from Spain in 1890's? Guess what, still there.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
I realize it may be a no-win situation, and if it is, my vote is to eliminate those who would butcher children in the name of religion.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
The siege was "largely" mythical. (Largely, but not entirely.)
The administration "just seems grateful" there was an excuse to restart hostilities. (Really? They seem grateful?)
While I am sure there are media accounts overstating the situation there, this particular piece seems to be deliberately understating it. Let's not swallow it word for word just because we may want to agree with it.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
That's the point.
Yet we are still gunning for Iraq because at the end, its about protecting our imperialistic ways/interests.
That is probably why the author said that "just seems grateful" cause it gave them an excuse to do what they've apparently wanted to do for a while.
end of story.
and again, even if the U.S. Didn't touch Iraq for a decade, its legacy of death will still be felt from all the chemicals we dropped over Iraq.
and now you want the U.S. To go back in to save children,
too late for that.