Iraq

Byrnzie

unsung said:

http://benswann.com/kucinich-stop-calling-iraq-war-a-mistake/

'...According to Kucinich, journalists and media commentators also needed to address their true role in forming the lie the American public believes about the war in Iraq. He said they should “stop giving inordinate air and print time to people who were either utterly wrong in their support of the war or willful in their calculations to make war.” Kucinich blamed the media for fanning the flames of war, due to the fact that they did not give ”adequate coverage to the arguments against military intervention.”

“The unwillingness to confront the truth about the Iraq War has induced a form of amnesia which is hazardous to our nation’s health,” Kucinich explained. “Willful forgetting doesn’t heal, it opens the door to more lying. As today’s debate ensues about new potential military “solutions” to stem violence in Iraq, let’s remember how and why we intervened in Iraq in 2003.”

njnancy

The Waiting Trophy Man said:

Why can't they use drones against ISIS in Iraq? Why are they considering air strikes instead?

We don't have the military intelligence on the ground to help coordinate a drone attack. Since ISIS is within population centers, and not out in the desert or wearing recognizable uniforms, there is no way that we could make a precision attack without either killing the wrong person/people or possibly killing some bad guys but also killing a heap of civilians. There is no way to know who is who. And I would think that 'collateral damage' would be unacceptable after all the loss of life that the Iraqi's have already suffered.

callen

Drowned Out said:

callen said:

Drowned Out said:

The green light to invade Kuwait is in the transcripts of a meeting between saddam and US ambassador to Iraq April Glaspie.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_Glaspie

I also recall stories that the US had green lighted Kuwait to angle drill for oil, into Iraqi territory; another engineered conflict.

So read the Wiki story and don't see how the statement Glaspie made equated US giving green light to invade. Simply party line that we don't get into Arab Arab disputes.

So don't think it a fair assessment of what happened and shouldn't be used in this or other debates

That's all you took from that, eh?
They noted the military mobilization, told Saddam that they had no interest In the dispute, and that they had no agreements to defend Kuwait....
I disagree. And I think it is certainly worth mention in this and other debates, so frankly I don't care if you don't think it should be used or not - I provided the information, do with it what you will, but don't patronize me for doing so by telling me I shouldn't.
No comment on the falsified incubator story that was trumpeted by US politicians pushing for war? You don't see any hidden agenda in this US 'diplomacy'?

All good and agree in many of your positions just I don't see it as a green light and yes we can all interpret differently didn't mean to sound patronizing, wasn't my intention.

It wouldn't be in US interests to have Sadaam control Kuwait oil, hence US took action.

callen

Byrnzie said:

callen said:

So read the Wiki story and don't see how the statement Glaspie made equated US giving green light to invade. Simply party line that we don't get into Arab Arab disputes.

So don't think it a fair assessment of what happened and shouldn't be used in this or other debates

You don't think it's a fair assessment of what happened? Really? I'd love to hear what you think is a fair assessment of 'what happened'.

She explicitly said the United States took no position on the border dispute between Iraq and Kuwait. How much more of a green light could there be?

No I don't at this point. Think it's a stretch. Border dispute maybe but not invading. Also she was being diplomatic. Typical BS soft language for this time in history Will freely admit I have limited knowledge and will Look at other evidence.

brianlux

njnancy said:

I'm having my sentences diagrammed.

OMG- I haven't had to do that in 800 years. :-))

njnancy

brianlux said:

njnancy said:

I'm having my sentences diagrammed.

uote.>
Who said laughter was permitted! >:) I posted that when you asked what was fucken new last night.
OMG- I haven't had to do that in 800 years. :-))

I'm a grammar geek. I can remember debating another student about proper diagramming in 2nd grade. The nuns were totally into it. :-B

I fine tuned that other list - 45 - i have a major problem. :-S

BTW - President is currently meeting with Secretary Hagel, NSA officials and John 'bomb bomb bomb bomb bomb Iran' McCain and is making an announcement at sometime between now and later ET (my time) about Iraq.

Godfather.

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

and what deals are you referring to? and what rules of these deals have these groups gone back on?

Byrnzie said:

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

and what deals are you referring to? and what rules of these deals have these groups gone back on?

He's just making it up as he goes. Whatever sounds good. He gets his knowledge of the World from car bumper-stickers.

you must be one of those people that never leaves your room.

Godfather.

Godfather.

badbrains said:

I hear ya brian. But when are we, as a whole, ever gonna learn? When's enough? When do we FINALLY say ok, enough, we're done buying all the bullshit you're selling us. It has to start with all of us wanting and knowing the truth. Are we ready for the truth? Idk if I can honestly say we all are. But it's been how many years of war and lies? Going all the way back to the first gulf war for me. That was what 91, and we're in 2014! And look at us as a nation, same old song and dance. And funny thing, almost the SAME fucken players.

A lot of you on the train are critical thinkers, that I know for fact. A lot of you have independent thoughts and are able to distinguish the difference between truths and propaganda. And I appreciate reading all of your thought out posts. But some on here (most of you can tell who's who) are just so fucken lost and blind. But here's the thing, I think the ones who (I believe to be lost) dnt want to know and dnt honestly care to know the truth. And that's the sad thing. My history high school teacher tried to teach his class to be critical thinkers in life. I want to thank you mr Hayes for indoctrinating that into me.

I think maybe it's time for me to get off on the next station stop, maybe give this place and my head a break.

should you be refering to me ? allow me to give my thoughts on this,
I don't think anybody on the train really has any insight into government actions and why they are decided upon because our government does not give the press whole truths and thats where we get our info,as much as I love this great country I understand that our government if full of liars and criminals who kill cheat and steal much like most other countries do and I would be dragged by my short and curlys just to see them removed...but then what ? china- iraq-afgan and all these other countries that are as bad or worse run the U.S down with more terrorism and attacks ? ya see I believe all thies other countries are as bad or worse then the U.S , how many of these countries that ask for aid from the U.S turned around and fucked us ? to me pointing the finger at the U.S is about as silly as it gets,the blame for the poor condition of the world is not that of the U.S alone we are just the biggist and most powerful guys on the block,take a look at the terrorist that have attacked Canada Eupro America Japan and other's that are from the middle east and the general attitude here on the train is that it's just the radicals,do you really think that they did these attacks and murders without backing or support from their governments ? anybody that truly believes that must spend too much time reading Byrnzie's post's,so yes the U.S is far from perfect but we could be worse.....all of these government's need cleaning not just our's.

Godfather.

Jason P

So I guess we are changing the name of trained military personel from "soldiers" to "advisors".

Jason P

Advice #1 - When the enemy approaches you, don't throw your weapon down and run off like a little girl

Last-12-Exit

Jason P said:

So I guess we are changing the name of trained military personel from "soldiers" to "advisors".

I am really surprised that Obama is doing this.

Cosmo

Godfather. said:

Cosmo said:

Godfather. said:

like I have said before,it's been going on for thousands of years and it will never stop,the U.S needs to walk away until they make

Cosmo said:

Godfather. said:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/13/militants-vow-to-march-on-baghdad-as-obama-administration-mulls-response/


solve your problems......did barry-o say that ??????? hahhahhahhahhahha

...
Sir... I need to ask...
what is funny about that?
I mean, what is so funny about telling Iraq that they need to quit dropping their weapons and waiving the white flag as soon as someone points a gun at them?
How much money did we spent trainning thier forces? How many Servicemen and women lost thie lives or have been serverly injured in standing them up to fight for themselves?
Please, tell me why shouldn't they use the weapons and trainning we gave them... to stand up and fight for themselves?
I am seriously looking forward to see how you answer this.

well ISIS goal is to create a muslim state, this whole topic is what I have been in disagreement with, the muslims want a muslim world and are willing to kill anybody who even disagrees with them and you think I should be concerned with them ? I'm not sure what your getting at, my whole gripe with this is if the U.S helps either side as they did some years ago it will just keep happening and those dirt bags come to our country and start bullshit here as well so I say that we( the U.S) should back away and when they mess with us we shouls wipe their ass's right out.....we should have done that right after 9/11 or in my opinion or at the very least excuted those even remotely involved already but to be honest with you I think obama is kissing muslim ass somewhere in this whole mess...to the point of offering a reach around (that is an angry statement) and I'm a little tired of the "it's only the radical muslims" defence every time this issue is brought up, this whole crock of shit pisses me off.

Godfather.

...
That's a nice little off-topic incoherent rant, sir... but you did not answer the question... Why are you laughing at President Obama telling Iraq to 'Solve their own problems' by standing up to the insurgents? Do you think that he is wrong? That they shouldn't stand up for themselves?
...
And regarding your suggestion for a solution, Wipe them all out... I'll put your name on the list... along with Joseph Stalin, Pol Pot and Adolph Hitler... who believe that genocide is a viable solution to a geo-political problem. Wipe them ALL out... problem solved, right?
In Jesus' name... amen.

stalin...hitler ? really ??????? re-read my posts on this topic Cosmo, 1) I stated that this is one of the few times I agree with what obama said "solve your problems" 2) I also stated we should NOT act unless acted upon then wipe em out,,,,,,,in the name Jesus ?...I never said that so please get off your high horse,are you trying to attack my faith ? look at your self before attacking my faith (very low shot).

Godfather.

...
Yes, sir. When you say, "... I say that we( the U.S) should back away and when they mess with us we shouls wipe their ass's right out."... you are repeating the same opinion that Hitler had with his solution... that Stalin had with his solution... and that Pol Pot had with his solution. Hitler, Stalin and Pol Pot all wanted to wipe out those that messed with them... that same way YOU want to wipe out all who mess with you. There is a term for that... it is callled, 'Genocide'.
...
And if you agree with President Obama... then, yet again... WHY do you say this, "solve your problems......did barry-o say that ??????? hahhahhahhahhahha".
It makes no sense to me... that you laugh at the assertion that Iraq needs to step up. That is what brought forth this particular discussion. What is so funny about what President Obama said?
...
And if you wish for that final solution... I believe you come in direct conflict of what Jesus was all about. You may wish to re-read the part of the Bible that you interpret where Jesus is wanting to commit genocide... because I cannot find that passage.

Cosmo

Godfather. said:

JP congrats on your debut novel !
I will not now or ever give in to the U.S bashing that goes on here on the train, with all the faults each government has how can the U.S be the bad guy every time ?

Godfather.

..
Aren't you 'Bashing America' with your criticism of President Obama?
I mean, most of the stuff i hear about Iraq is people criticisim the former Bush Administration for going over there in the first place. Is criticising American foriegn policy considered 'Bashing'? If it is, then aren't you bashing america with your criticism, too?
...
In other words:
Why is it when someone is critical of former President Bush... it is 'Bashing America'... but, any criticism of President Obama is considered 'Patriotism'?
How does THAT work?

Cosmo

The thing that someone needs to explain to me is this...
How short is America's fucking memory? I mean, this Iraq shit... people act like it just cropped up last week. It's not ancient history. i want to know... where the fuck were some of these people in 2003? I know, i can't blame the 10 year olds and younger... but seriously... if you are an adult, you should at least... know something about Iraq. And not the made up shit that the politicians are saying and FOX News is broadcasting.... you were alive and a fully developed, thinking adult in 2003.
What the fuck?

Cosmo

njnancy said:

The Waiting Trophy Man said:

Why can't they use drones against ISIS in Iraq? Why are they considering air strikes instead?

We don't have the military intelligence on the ground to help coordinate a drone attack. Since ISIS is within population centers, and not out in the desert or wearing recognizable uniforms, there is no way that we could make a precision attack without either killing the wrong person/people or possibly killing some bad guys but also killing a heap of civilians. There is no way to know who is who. And I would think that 'collateral damage' would be unacceptable after all the loss of life that the Iraqi's have already suffered.

...
That's true. 'Smart Weapons' are not smart... yet. They are just not the dumb weapons that only rely on getting pushed out of the airplane at the right time.
The only way to fight an asymetrical war with plain clothed insurgents is on the ground, face to face fighting. Air strikes typically come in the form of close air support. 'Support' being the key term. In support of ground troops engaged in the fight. Like, if you are recieving fire from hostile forces, you identify the location, call in the coordinates and request an air strike and air support takes it out. You can't have close air support... if there are no ground troops to support... because the troops shed their uniforms and went home.
As long as Iraqi troops flee at the first sign of danger, there is nothing anyone can do to help them.
...
If you ask me... I say the best American option is to not exercise an option. If Iran wants to get snared by this screwed up foriegn entanglement... then, they are welcomed to do it.

njnancy

I have a bunch of thoughts and i will attempt to put them in some sort of rational order, at least rational to me.

gimmesometruth27 said:

anybody read cheney's op ed today??

i read most of it, through tears of laughter.

essentially, what cheney's trying to do is the exact same thing as this scenario...

a group of guys goes and beats up a man with pipes and weapons. the man is beaten so badly he in a coma for 5 years. THEN, when the man dies after 5 years of being in a coma, the group who beat the victim comes out and blames the doctor for the death.

^^ Blew my mind. i used to think that he was just a 24 hour propaganda machine; but i am coming to the conclusion that he really believes that anything that comes out of his mouth, or mind, is gospel and that he is the most important and smartest person in the room. (The man had to get a new heart for crying out loud - he was battery operated for a good two years). There is no remorse, self examination, nothing, He never even faded from the scene when he left office; he just feels that his words are so prophetic that he never left the media spotlight, at all - he is THE most arrogant fuck that I've had to listen to since, well, my psychotic ex - but though he's brutally manipulative, he's an intellectual moron. He could never have a standing invitation to Fox News like Cheney (knocked on wood and chills went down my back).
The one sentence, in the op/ed, that showed the depth of Cheney's complete lack of self awareness was "Rarely has a U.S. president been so wrong about so much at the expense of so many" and when he was pressed on aforementioned Fox News (which blew my mind too - i basically have no mind left, it seems) about how a lot of people would apply those words to himself and the Bush presidency; he just waved it off like someone had sneezed or something and then continued with his criticism of President Obama as being the worst president in his lifetime. I'm sorry, but Cheney is an asshole. Then he and his daughter do the freakin' youtube video. Enough Cheney - one can not take too much. Unlike psychotic ex, I can't get a restraining order against Dick - now that would be sweet. Whenever his face popped on my tv, i could call the Capitol police.

(I've had a whacked day, so excuse my extreme digressions)

I've seen the press conference several times and heard analysis but for some reason my brain is not fully comprehending the President's proposed action. i believe that in addition to the 275 special forces that are guarding the embassy in Iraq; he is sending 100 special forces to basically teach people how to use the drone systems that we left there when we pulled out. He showed no love for Al-Maliki - even when pressed on the subject. I am not sure if special ops are going there to be able to guide the drones to the ISIS folks; i can't imagine trusting the Iraqi forces to do that job for us. They basically can instruct and advise the Iraqis on how to be an army who is in charge of the protection of all people in Iraq - you can show someone how to shoot a gun or practice close quarters combat; however, you cannot teach someone how to stand in the face of danger and lay their life on the line for their country. Also, pressure is being put on Al Maliki, for as long as he is still in power, to create a government that is truly representative of all people. I don't think the Sunni's will refuse to vote next time. Does someone have a better understanding of what has been proposed. I've got a migraine so my brain is kinda swooshy.

On a strange side note - does anyone else start singing the Dylan song, 'Isis' whenever these very bad people are mentioned or is it just me? Not making light of the situation; I just start singing Isis. Okay, I think I'm done here, for now.

Halifax2TheMax

njnancy said:

I have a bunch of thoughts and i will attempt to put them in some sort of rational order, at least rational to me.

gimmesometruth27 said:

anybody read cheney's op ed today??

i read most of it, through tears of laughter.

essentially, what cheney's trying to do is the exact same thing as this scenario...

a group of guys goes and beats up a man with pipes and weapons. the man is beaten so badly he in a coma for 5 years. THEN, when the man dies after 5 years of being in a coma, the group who beat the victim comes out and blames the doctor for the death.

^^ Blew my mind. i used to think that he was just a 24 hour propaganda machine; but i am coming to the conclusion that he really believes that anything that comes out of his mouth, or mind, is gospel and that he is the most important and smartest person in the room. (The man had to get a new heart for crying out loud - he was battery operated for a good two years). There is no remorse, self examination, nothing, He never even faded from the scene when he left office; he just feels that his words are so prophetic that he never left the media spotlight, at all - he is THE most arrogant fuck that I've had to listen to since, well, my psychotic ex - but though he's brutally manipulative, he's an intellectual moron. He could never have a standing invitation to Fox News like Cheney (knocked on wood and chills went down my back).
The one sentence, in the op/ed, that showed the depth of Cheney's complete lack of self awareness was "Rarely has a U.S. president been so wrong about so much at the expense of so many" and when he was pressed on aforementioned Fox News (which blew my mind too - i basically have no mind left, it seems) about how a lot of people would apply those words to himself and the Bush presidency; he just waved it off like someone had sneezed or something and then continued with his criticism of President Obama as being the worst president in his lifetime. I'm sorry, but Cheney is an asshole. Then he and his daughter do the freakin' youtube video. Enough Cheney - one can not take too much. Unlike psychotic ex, I can't get a restraining order against Dick - now that would be sweet. Whenever his face popped on my tv, i could call the Capitol police.

(I've had a whacked day, so excuse my extreme digressions)

I've seen the press conference several times and heard analysis but for some reason my brain is not fully comprehending the President's proposed action. i believe that in addition to the 275 special forces that are guarding the embassy in Iraq; he is sending 100 special forces to basically teach people how to use the drone systems that we left there when we pulled out. He showed no love for Al-Maliki - even when pressed on the subject. I am not sure if special ops are going there to be able to guide the drones to the ISIS folks; i can't imagine trusting the Iraqi forces to do that job for us. They basically can instruct and advise the Iraqis on how to be an army who is in charge of the protection of all people in Iraq - you can show someone how to shoot a gun or practice close quarters combat; however, you cannot teach someone how to stand in the face of danger and lay their life on the line for their country. Also, pressure is being put on Al Maliki, for as long as he is still in power, to create a government that is truly representative of all people. I don't think the Sunni's will refuse to vote next time. Does someone have a better understanding of what has been proposed. I've got a migraine so my brain is kinda swooshy.

On a strange side note - does anyone else start singing the Dylan song, 'Isis' whenever these very bad people are mentioned or is it just me? Not making light of the situation; I just start singing Isis. Okay, I think I'm done here, for now.

If you really want to understand Cheney's depravity, arrogance and lack of shame, read They Marched Into Sunlight by David Maraniss. It's all you need to understand how the man has no heart.

Peace.

njnancy

^^will look it up - thanks.

Byrnzie

callen said:

It wouldn't be in US interests to have Sadaam control Kuwait oil, hence US took action.

Why not? You were happy to have him as a buddy throughout the 1980's.

Byrnzie

Godfather. said:

you must be one of those people that never leaves your room.

Why? Because I'm capable of reading a book?