Iraq

The Waiting Trophy Man

I heard Obama is sending military "advisors" to Iraq to help train and support the Iraqis. Didn't the Vietnam War start this way? Isn't this technically putting "boots on the ground?"

Also, what happens if a few of these advisors end up getting killed by ISIS? What if there's a bombing? It'd be war all over again.

njnancy

The Waiting Trophy Man said:

I heard Obama is sending military "advisors" to Iraq to help train and support the Iraqis. Didn't the Vietnam War start this way? Isn't this technically putting "boots on the ground?"

Also, what happens if a few of these advisors end up getting killed by ISIS? What if there's a bombing? It'd be war all over again.

There aren't any combat troops being sent - those going are to advise and train within the green zone. They will not be going out to fight the insurgency with the Iraqis. Mission creep is always something to be feared, but there will be people on the ground who would be able to co ordinate with drones if an opportunity to kill ISIS members presents itself. President Obama does not want to be in Iraq - he wants to get everyone out of the Middle East before his term ends as this was a campaign promise and something he believed in prior to running for office - he voted against the Iraq invasion. His biggest concern is getting rid of isis or at least getting eyes on them to see what their real numbers and capabilities are. 100 special forces are not going to be fighting insurgents - they are going to be doing covert actions while 'advising' Iraq on how to try and quell the situation. Special forces are not immune to being shot at or killed, but the are highly trained individuals who will be able to, perhaps, make a dent in ISIS because any insurgent group is where the President's main concern lies. There are plenty of critics on the hill saying we should be performing air strikes and sending troops. They will be against what Obama does, actually, no matter what it is. He wants us out of there and he wants to close Gitmo - imho, he is not going to start putting in combat troops after he got them all out in 2012 and the remainder in Afghanistan will be coming home at the end of this year. I am not privy to the information that is disseminated in the Situation Room (nor would I want to be - that first meeting the day a President takes office must be horrifying) so I am going to trust my President until I have reason not to. He thought about this for a long time, he is not reactionary and he is not a neo con. He has more information than I and has spoken to the generals who had been in Iraq. He is much more strategic and intelligent than 50% of this country gives him credit. There is a huge difference between combat troops and special forces. I'm going to hope for the best. I'm glad I didn't have to make this decision. Obama is extremely anti-war so the tragic decisions made in Vietnam are in the hands of a different minded individual. JMHO.

Godfather.

Cosmo said:

Godfather. said:

JP congrats on your debut novel !
I will not now or ever give in to the U.S bashing that goes on here on the train, with all the faults each government has how can the U.S be the bad guy every time ?


well amigo that's because obama is in my opinion on sad ass excuse for an American....and beside when I called out "bashing America" that's because some on the train quoted "America is bad or sucks" and had nothing to do with that asshat you guys call the president" the guy a total blunder in the white house or don't you see that,everybody is quick to point out Bush's faults but calling out obama's faults is racism right ? or obama's blunders are blamed on Bush....a guy who has not been president for 6 or so years.

Godfather.

Godfather.

Godfather.

..
Aren't you 'Bashing America' with your criticism of President Obama?
I mean, most of the stuff i hear about Iraq is people criticisim the former Bush Administration for going over there in the first place. Is criticising American foriegn policy considered 'Bashing'? If it is, then aren't you bashing america with your criticism, too?
...
In other words:
Why is it when someone is critical of former President Bush... it is 'Bashing America'... but, any criticism of President Obama is considered 'Patriotism'?
How does THAT work?

Godfather.

Godfather. said:

Cosmo said:

Godfather. said:

JP congrats on your debut novel !
I will not now or ever give in to the U.S bashing that goes on here on the train, with all the faults each government has how can the U.S be the bad guy every time ?






good grief


well amigo that's because obama is in my opinion on sad ass excuse for an American....and beside when I called out "bashing America" that's because some on the train quoted "America is bad or sucks" and had nothing to do with that asshat you guys call the president" the guy a total blunder in the white house or don't you see that,everybody is quick to point out Bush's faults but calling out obama's faults is racism right ? or obama's blunders are blamed on Bush....a guy who has not been president for 6 or so years.

Godfather.

Godfather.

Godfather.

..
Aren't you 'Bashing America' with your criticism of President Obama?
I mean, most of the stuff i hear about Iraq is people criticisim the former Bush Administration for going over there in the first place. Is criticising American foriegn policy considered 'Bashing'? If it is, then aren't you bashing america with your criticism, too?
...
In other words:
Why is it when someone is critical of former President Bush... it is 'Bashing America'... but, any criticism of President Obama is considered 'Patriotism'?
How does THAT work?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

can we put one thing to rest once and for all, please? criticizing american foreign policy is not bashing america or hating on americans. it's criticizing the government! understand the difference! an example:

1) Stephen Harper is an idiot
2) Canadians are idiots

see the difference? I don't take offense to #1!

callen

Byrnzie said:

callen said:

It wouldn't be in US interests to have Sadaam control Kuwait oil, hence US took action.

Why not? You were happy to have him as a buddy throughout the 1980's.

Not the point. Only saying I don't agree we "Gave green light" for him to invade Kuwait based on evidence presented. Think it's a stretch to make that assumption.

Also for the record was opposed and vocal about invading Iraq in 2003.

mikepegg44

Here is the truth: fighting a war without end will not force the Iraqis to take responsibility for their own future. And fighting in a war without end will not make the American people safer.

So when I am Commander-in-Chief, I will set a new goal on Day One: I will end this war. Not because politics compels it. Not because our troops cannot bear the burden– as heavy as it is. But because it is the right thing to do for our national security, and it will ultimately make us safer.

Those are not my words, they are President Obama's in 2008. Those are the words of someone reading the public tea leaves and believing that the public would support someone who said it.
So which is it President Obama? does being involved in a war without end make us safer or not?

The next time any of you go to the polls in the US, please take a minute to understand that there are politicians who do what they say...the get marganlized and cast aside as crazy (wellstone, paul, kucinich)...the rest are just different voices with the same back bone

advisors...troops...air strikes...none of it matters...what did oil/gas prices not peak high enough on memorial day...we have to drum up some flow stoppages?

callen

Mike: and believe he still feels this way and can be evidenced by actions in Libya and Syria. He's now backed in corner and wanting to help with least involvement possible. Is he intervening too much?, that is the question.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

federal politics won't change until it is no longer reserved for the super rich.

Cosmo

Godfather. said:

Cosmo said:

Godfather. said:

JP congrats on your debut novel !
I will not now or ever give in to the U.S bashing that goes on here on the train, with all the faults each government has how can the U.S be the bad guy every time?

Godfather

...
Aren't you 'Bashing America' with your criticism of President Obama?
I mean, most of the stuff i hear about Iraq is people criticisim the former Bush Administration for going over there in the first place. Is criticising American foriegn policy considered 'Bashing'? If it is, then aren't you bashing america with your criticism, too?
...
In other words:
Why is it when someone is critical of former President Bush... it is 'Bashing America'... but, any criticism of President Obama is considered 'Patriotism'?
How does THAT work?

...
well amigo that's because obama is in my opinion on sad ass excuse for an American....and beside when I called out "bashing America" that's because some on the train quoted "America is bad or sucks" and had nothing to do with that asshat you guys call the president" the guy a total blunder in the white house or don't you see that,everybody is quick to point out Bush's faults but calling out obama's faults is racism right ? or obama's blunders are blamed on Bush....a guy who has not been president for 6 or so years.

Godfather.

...
You still didn't answer the question...
Why is it when someone is critical of former President Bush... it is 'Bashing America'... but, any criticism of President Obama is considered 'Patriotism'?

You have your reasons why you don't like President Obama... which are pretty arbitrary, at best... but, you tell people who are critical of former President Bush (who are very specific in their criticism) that they are Bashing America. You would think that a rational person would understand tha being critial of a President... any President was either criticism against the President... or critical of America. I would just like to try to get an understanding of the mindset that only gets upset when the guy they didn't vote for is running the show.
...
Also... can you do me a favor? Point me to the message where someone says, 'America is bad or sucks'. I'd like to respond to them.
Thanx.

Cosmo

We should not send in air strikes. If we do, we are taking the Shi'ite side in Iraq's Sectarian violence. Iraq needs to stop basing their government policies based on Sunni-Shi'ia-Kurd.
If Iraq wants a military backbone for only the Shi'ites in Iraq... they can go ask Iran to help them.

Jason P

The Kurds may be the solution. I didn't realize they were as well equiped as they are.

Cosmo said:

We should not send in air strikes. If we do, we are taking the Shi'ite side in Iraq's Sectarian violence. Iraq needs to stop basing their government policies based on Sunni-Shi'ia-Kurd.
If Iraq wants a military backbone for only the Shi'ites in Iraq... they can go ask Iran to help them.

Haven't we already taken the Shiite side? If the Iraqi army can make a kill only because we are spotting for them, that's not much difference then the US directly pulling the trigger. It's the semantic equivilent of soldier / advisor. I think we will either ramp up support in the future or seal a deal with Iran (which would be political suicide).

It's interesting that the Kurds appear to have a Sunni majority but they are taking it to ISIS. They must follow the sane version of Sunni.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

most, if not all, people on the train, GF, understand that Obama is not a perfect president. But you also have to remember all of the racist name calling this place saw at the hands of yourself and others when he first got elected. But most of us also understand that he is no more the president that started the Iraq war than Dwight Eisenhower was. Every president, to some degree, is measured by how they clean up the mess of their predecessor. And Obama's successor will be no different. But Bush was a whole different animal. He fucked up immeasurably. Also, no one is blaming all of America's woes on Bush. They are blaming it on decades of foreign policy. DECADES. But Bush's blunders were that all unto its own. To be fair, however, we don't have to imagine how any other president would have acted in the face of 9/11. Obama's reaction could have been worse. It could have been better. Bush's reaction to Obama's economy could have been worse. It could have been better. But we don't have the luxury of knowledge when it's all mere conjecture. In my opinion, Obama has been a far better president than Bush. Has he been one of the best? Nope. Has he been one of the worst? Also no. Fortunately or unfortunately, however you want to look at it, Obama has been able to accomplish very little because of Congress. They roadblocked every move he made. Why didn't that happen to Bush? Because everyone knows that the popular (if uneducated) position that Americans held at the time was pro-war and revenge-seeking. We all have the benefit of hindsight with his decisions, however, and he will forever be known as one of, if not the, worst and stupidest president in American history.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Cosmo said:

Godfather. said:

Cosmo said:

Godfather. said:

JP congrats on your debut novel !
I will not now or ever give in to the U.S bashing that goes on here on the train, with all the faults each government has how can the U.S be the bad guy every time?

Godfather

...
Aren't you 'Bashing America' with your criticism of President Obama?
I mean, most of the stuff i hear about Iraq is people criticisim the former Bush Administration for going over there in the first place. Is criticising American foriegn policy considered 'Bashing'? If it is, then aren't you bashing america with your criticism, too?
...
In other words:
Why is it when someone is critical of former President Bush... it is 'Bashing America'... but, any criticism of President Obama is considered 'Patriotism'?
How does THAT work?

...
well amigo that's because obama is in my opinion on sad ass excuse for an American....and beside when I called out "bashing America" that's because some on the train quoted "America is bad or sucks" and had nothing to do with that asshat you guys call the president" the guy a total blunder in the white house or don't you see that,everybody is quick to point out Bush's faults but calling out obama's faults is racism right ? or obama's blunders are blamed on Bush....a guy who has not been president for 6 or so years.

Godfather.

...
You still didn't answer the question...
Why is it when someone is critical of former President Bush... it is 'Bashing America'... but, any criticism of President Obama is considered 'Patriotism'?

You have your reasons why you don't like President Obama... which are pretty arbitrary, at best... but, you tell people who are critical of former President Bush (who are very specific in their criticism) that they are Bashing America. You would think that a rational person would understand tha being critial of a President... any President was either criticism against the President... or critical of America. I would just like to try to get an understanding of the mindset that only gets upset when the guy they didn't vote for is running the show.
...
Also... can you do me a favor? Point me to the message where someone says, 'America is bad or sucks'. I'd like to respond to them.
Thanx.

GF thinks all muslims are bad. He thinks (or at one time thought) Obama was a muslim, or at the very least, a "muslim apologist". The puzzle is easy to put together.

badbrains

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

federal politics won't change until it is no longer reserved for the super rich.

Exactly THIS

Last-12-Exit

I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

PJ_Soul

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

can we put one thing to rest once and for all, please? criticizing american foreign policy is not bashing america or hating on americans. it's criticizing the government! understand the difference! an example:

1) Stephen Harper is an idiot
2) Canadians are idiots

see the difference? I don't take offense to #1!

#1 actually makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Last-12-Exit said:

I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

Can you tell me why? This is not a challenge, it is an honest question. I would like to hear the reason(s) why.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Interesting. Obama is listed as 15th best all time.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

jeffbr

Thanks for that link, Hugh. It was an interesting read. I tend to agree with this guy: Historian Thomas Bailey describes the endeavor as trying to "measure the immeasurable".
Way too hard to rank them. But Obama will be neither the best nor the worst. He's not that charismatic off script, he doesn't have any exceptional leadership qualities (ie can't rally the masses or the legislature), he has been largely ineffective. But he also hasn't tanked our economy, committed cimes in office, sent thousands of our troops to their deaths, etc... He's been average and will probably be remembered as such.