You missed the point of the question. I'll just make it a hypothetical.
Facts: 1) A rebel group is going town to town killing and has trapped refugees in the mountains 2) US has no direct or indirect involvement in conflict 3) It is clear cut (100% agreement from all nations) that the rebels are the bad guys and the refugees are the good guys 4) The country involved has asked for US assistance 5) US has the ability to bomb the rebel group and send food and aid to the refugees
With these facts, would your foreign policy views allow for the US to help?
I would support humanitarian aid but that is it. No military involvement.
And no, I did not miss the point. Your question wasn't asking about a hypothetical situation. The FACTS are that our involvement in that region of the globe creates radicals. It is more than just Iraq, or are you saying that these violators are Iraqis?
And also there are countries with better logistics that could provide support, the US doesn't hold the patent on humanitarian efforts.
Clearly I was asking a question about whether the US should help innocent civilians (where the US wasn't previously involved) overseas who are helpless to stop an evil terrorist, radical group.
So it looks like you'll drop water so they aren't thirsty during their slaughter.
I understand your position though. Intervention doesn't seem to be making the world more stable. It is just crazy that in 2014 civilians are getting massacred and a country that can help wouldn't even try. Evil will florish as good men and women choose to not even try to stop it. There is no good answer.
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
If we want to talk specifics of this situation then my answer will include not only the specific situation but also the circumstances that lead up to it.
If we want to talk about the hypothetical then the answer is definitely shorter and easier to give.
If we want to talk specifics of this situation then my answer will include not only the specific situation but also the circumstances that lead up to it.
If we want to talk about the hypothetical then the answer is definitely shorter and easier to give.
I'm just trying to understand your position in general. From your foreign policy perspective is there a circumstance where the US would ever fire a bullet or drop a bomb to save a group of non-US civilians?
I think I agree with most of your views, but I think it would be difficult to not stand up to ISIS and save those refugees. Easy for me to say though as I am not in the military risking my life. It is like a bully on the playground. Some kids are just helpless and someone who has the ability needs to recognize the problem and step-in. Unfortunately, the side that needs help at the time becomes the enemy at some point a lot of times.
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unsung
I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
I am conflicted. I certainly would want to help them, however I feel involvement could never exist without turning it into a years-long mission. I can't support that. No, I do not want people to die like this. At some point some other country, perhaps one of their neighbors, should stand up and do what is right. They could be next.
What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.
The U.S. or Isis? - We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)
You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.
The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.
That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.
and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.
It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.
Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine. We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.
oh, I'm very serious.
I'm not just criticizing our foreign policy, I'm straight up saying that its wrong and a major cause for many of the issues we are facing today.
They cut kids in half? We have given kids birth defects and cancers (for generations to come) we slaughter by the dozen's in drone strikes.
We think our cause is 'just'? That gives us the right to kill like we do?
We must back away from our destructive involvements in other nations policies.
We created the path for ISIS to walk.
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mickeyrat
up my ass, like Chadwick was up his Posts: 36,284
You missed the point of the question. I'll just make it a hypothetical.
Facts: 1) A rebel group is going town to town killing and has trapped refugees in the mountains 2) US has no direct or indirect involvement in conflict 3) It is clear cut (100% agreement from all nations) that the rebels are the bad guys and the refugees are the good guys 4) The country involved has asked for US assistance 5) US has the ability to bomb the rebel group and send food and aid to the refugees
With these facts, would your foreign policy views allow for the US to help?
I would support humanitarian aid but that is it. No military involvement.
And no, I did not miss the point. Your question wasn't asking about a hypothetical situation. The FACTS are that our involvement in that region of the globe creates radicals. It is more than just Iraq, or are you saying that these violators are Iraqis?
And also there are countries with better logistics that could provide support, the US doesn't hold the patent on humanitarian efforts.
its been reported that these guys were known as AQ In Iraq. Refused to follow general orders from AQ central in regards to actions taken in Syria.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
I am conflicted. I certainly would want to help them, however I feel involvement could never exist without turning it into a years-long mission. I can't support that. No, I do not want people to die like this. At some point some other country, perhaps one of their neighbors, should stand up and do what is right. They could be next.
I agree that other countries need to get involved. I heartily believe that if Russia and China would think about the world versus their own interests the conflicts in the world woudl be much fewer (at least in the Middle East and North Korea).
What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.
The U.S. or Isis? - We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)
You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.
The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.
That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.
and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.
It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.
Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine. We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.
oh, I'm very serious.
I'm not just criticizing our foreign policy, I'm straight up saying that its wrong and a major cause for many of the issues we are facing today.
They cut kids in half? We have given kids birth defects and cancers (for generations to come) we slaughter by the dozen's in drone strikes.
We think our cause is 'just'? That gives us the right to kill like we do?
We must back away from our destructive involvements in other nations policies.
We created the path for ISIS to walk.
Completely accurate. Sounds like rr just doesn't like it when murderers actually get their hands dirty. Al Qaeda and ISIS are def not on par with the US/NATO in violence...we have that contest won hands down. It's all perspective. ISIS, like Al Qaeda, is a creation of the western war machine....and not in a 'hamas is a result of the occupation' sense....these groups were actually created, armed, directed, and funded by us. The whole robbing banks and stealing arms thing might have some level of truth to it, but it is meant to obfuscate - where is the media attention to the CIA's roll with these groups in Libya and Syria?....It's casually mentioned as necessary evil, never a focal point. And so many of us pretend like this mistake won't be like the last one. I just don't get it. We critique the past but take nothing from it. We still pick and choose which victims of violence to 'help' (with our own violence), based on the nightly news.... Obama's legal authority to resume bombing Iraq was granted under the War Powers Resolution - no need for congressional oversight, because he claims he was protecting the troops he just fucking sent there....Talk about a setup....
What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.
The U.S. or Isis? - We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)
You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.
The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.
That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.
and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.
It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.
Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine. We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.
oh, I'm very serious.
I'm not just criticizing our foreign policy, I'm straight up saying that its wrong and a major cause for many of the issues we are facing today.
They cut kids in half? We have given kids birth defects and cancers (for generations to come) we slaughter by the dozen's in drone strikes.
We think our cause is 'just'? That gives us the right to kill like we do?
We must back away from our destructive involvements in other nations policies.
We created the path for ISIS to walk.
Completely accurate. Sounds like rr just doesn't like it when murderers actually get their hands dirty. Al Qaeda and ISIS are def not on par with the US/NATO in violence...we have that contest won hands down. It's all perspective. ISIS, like Al Qaeda, is a creation of the western war machine....and not in a 'hamas is a result of the occupation' sense....these groups were actually created, armed, directed, and funded by us. The whole robbing banks and stealing arms thing might have some level of truth to it, but it is meant to obfuscate - where is the media attention to the CIA's roll with these groups in Libya and Syria?....It's casually mentioned as necessary evil, never a focal point. And so many of us pretend like this mistake won't be like the last one. I just don't get it. We critique the past but take nothing from it. We still pick and choose which victims of violence to 'help' (with our own violence), based on the nightly news.... Obama's legal authority to resume bombing Iraq was granted under the War Powers Resolution - no need for congressional oversight, because he claims he was protecting the troops he just fucking sent there....Talk about a setup....
I'd tend to agree with this statement... The different is the style of warfare. If you're facilitating weapon delivery to extremist militant groups and dropping bombs from a distance - you may be far removed from the death, but death is death, brutality is brutality, and your fingerprints are all over this bloody mess. It's the American way to distance yourself from any messiness (by the way, Canada shares the blame in this for almost entirely supporting the policies of the US).
It's a strange allusion, but it makes me think of Food, Inc. - how many people would cease to eat red meat after a visit to a slaughterhouse? Instead, we go to the grocery store and get a lovely, sliced piece of meat on top of a packet to catch the blood and juices, with styrofoam underneath it, and a piece of cling wrap with a sticker showing a beautifully prepared steak on top. It may be a mask for brutality, but it doesn't change the events which transpired, or the outcome (dead animals). PS, I'm not advocating vegetarianism - I love meat. It's been interesting travelling to some developing nations: from my experience, when I order fish, and there's a full fish on my plate with its head still on - it's going to be delicious. We don't do that in North America. We give a loin, already scaled, or something that we can't compare to a living, breathing animal. We're okay with the death - just not the brutality, or the emotions that come with it.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
To be honest - I didn't even come close to thinking about domestic violence from the US. I think facilitating the acquisition of weaponry to known terror rings and dropping bombs based on unfounded information are where the US comes close to equivalence. I have absolutely zero problem with domestic violence and a death penalty, because as you said, cause is there.
If the US had no part in this conflict I would agree that there would be no place for even a mere mention of the US here.
That being said - I agree with you that the prime focus of a a thread entitled Iraq should actually be, go figure, Iraq. And I also agree that what's happening there is horrendous, and just plain evil.
'05 - TO, '06 - TO 1, '08 - NYC 1 & 2, '09 - TO, Chi 1 & 2, '10 - Buffalo, NYC 1 & 2, '11 - TO 1 & 2, Hamilton, '13 - Buffalo, Brooklyn 1 & 2, '15 - Global Citizen, '16 - TO 1 & 2, Chi 2
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
this is true, I am all for attention being put on the shady dealings of America's military industrial complex but right now stopping these sick fucks should be priority regardless of how you feel about America's shortcomings.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
This is legitimate.
And whether knowingly or not... it tends to diminish the significance of said events by the deflection tactic. I don't care what the US has done... the events you described are indefensible. To my way of thinking, any allusion to the US in light of such topics serves somewhat as a rationale for the behaviours.
One can't really talk about Iraq without speaking about the U.S. After all, we created the mess, and supported it, we supported Iraq's leader who was oppressive to a large demographic of its own people, thats just one root cause of this 'bloodied uprising'.
its about History, and learning from it. -
jimmyV you said.
*None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica* -
Sorry but the shoe fits, and the united states should wear it.
its not some "yeah, but America..." argument. (as u say).
The United States (and her allies) are responsible for this. That's it.
We kill innocent people via (example) drone strikes, and to you the innocent victims were just "caught In a drone strike". The wedding the U.S. Bombed was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, The kids getting murdered while playing soccer I guess were just simply "caught" In a Drone strike too, kids yet to be born in Iraq will be born with illnesses and birth defects, cause their mothers or grandmothers just happen to inhale the DU the U.S. Dropped years ago causing it.
and I'm sorry, but dropping a 5k bomb on a home, knowing full well innocent people will die, sorry, but that is the U.S. (NATO).
and this other stuff about honor killings and whatever else, please educate yourself a bit better. Its not some accepted practice (as u say), majority of these people do not support such things.
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
This is legitimate.
And whether knowingly or not... it tends to diminish the significance of said events by the deflection tactic. I don't care what the US has done... the events you described are indefensible. To my way of thinking, any allusion to the US in light of such topics serves somewhat as a rationale for the behaviours.
its not a 'deflection tactic'.
I'm saying. We created the monsters, by our own monstrous actions.
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
This is legitimate.
And whether knowingly or not... it tends to diminish the significance of said events by the deflection tactic. I don't care what the US has done... the events you described are indefensible. To my way of thinking, any allusion to the US in light of such topics serves somewhat as a rationale for the behaviours.
its not a 'deflection tactic'.
I'm saying. We created the monsters, by our own monstrous actions.
...and now its time to kill the monster.
and maybe learn a lesson from this although I highly doubt it. Whenever there is a almighty greenback dollar to be made, things tend to stay the same.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
This is legitimate.
And whether knowingly or not... it tends to diminish the significance of said events by the deflection tactic. I don't care what the US has done... the events you described are indefensible. To my way of thinking, any allusion to the US in light of such topics serves somewhat as a rationale for the behaviours.
its not a 'deflection tactic'.
I'm saying. We created the monsters, by our own monstrous actions.
...and now its time to kill the monster.
and maybe learn a lesson from this although I highly doubt it. Whenever there is a almighty greenback dollar to be made, things tend to stay the same.
I know this old Zulu tale about a monster who was born by the negative energy of a people, when the people tried to kill this monster, they ended up just creating more monsters.
Until one day, a very wise man In a small village cut the head off of the man who was spearheading this 'attack the monsters' movement.
You know what happened after the leaders head got cut off? The monsters all died off.
We need to cut the head off of our imperialistic ways, perhaps, Maybe if we change our ways, maybe if we truly change, and act in a just way around the world, we will not create anymore monsters.
as far the Monsters in Iraq go, well. Lets not make the same mistake. This is not our backyard, let the middle east deal with itself.
otherwise, I agree with your post.
(now in my rush, I probably messed up my post, I'll have to get back to it later)
Idris,Im still a little shocked that you continue to justify the actions of the fucked up Islamic fundamentalists by stating that we are as guilty as they are.Do you think the actions they are currently engaged in are justified in some way? Do you not agree this orginazation needs to be eliminated?
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
This is legitimate.
And whether knowingly or not... it tends to diminish the significance of said events by the deflection tactic. I don't care what the US has done... the events you described are indefensible. To my way of thinking, any allusion to the US in light of such topics serves somewhat as a rationale for the behaviours.
its not a 'deflection tactic'.
I'm saying. We created the monsters, by our own monstrous actions.
The ramifications of the US' involvement in the middle east are being felt somewhat, but the intolerance on display right now has been there for a long time.
And where exactly does one draw the line when trying to explain the reasons for current actions? When one person cites the US is responsible for shaping current mentalities and actions in the middle east, does another suggest Al Qaeda and the events of 9-11 motivated the US, and then, eventually, does one look back to the fight for independence (or even further) to try and explain how we have come to here?
The US has been on trial several times for several years on this forum for their foreign policies. They are definitely guilty of some poor things, but for right now in this particular thread, let's allow these savages to own their brutal behaviours without referencing others'.
What do you do with them? This is a calamity that is rapidly spiralling way out of control.
The U.S. or Isis? - We deal with ISIS, then who deals with us? (the U.S.)
You know, the U.S., the country that invades, bombs, destroys, supports the worst people in the world.
The U.S., the country that dropped Depleted Uranium (DU) in Iraq, causing congenital birth defects,cancers, total immune system collapse.
That was us, we did that, evil? No? Destroying the lives of babies, yet to be born, can it get more 'evil'? What position are we (the U.S.) in to go around talking about how Evil other people are.
and the real kicker, many of these people/groups were created directly or indirectly by U.S. actions around the world.
It's us, we are the bad ones, someone needs to do something about us.
Really Idris??Are you fucking kidding me ? You with good conscience how can you even think ISIS and the US are on the same level.Thats just asinine. We are far from perfect,and criticizing our foreign policy and involvement around the world is not only your right but your duty.But those same freedoms that give you the right to do that freely is also one of the big differences that separate us from those lowlife piece of shit terrorist scum bags.They CUT KIDS IN HALF,PUT HEADS ON STICKS and slaughter without remorse just for not being the right type of fundamentalist Muslim.These are some sick fuckers.Dont even try to think we as a country are even close to that kind of filth.Like I said earlier,we are not without our share of mistakes and or faults,but we also do a hell of a lot of good around the world and you better keep that in mind while throwing your own country under the bus.To many of our Brothers and sisters ,children and family have died trying to fight scum like this.You should really check your priorities,they seem out of whack.
oh, I'm very serious.
I'm not just criticizing our foreign policy, I'm straight up saying that its wrong and a major cause for many of the issues we are facing today.
They cut kids in half? We have given kids birth defects and cancers (for generations to come) we slaughter by the dozen's in drone strikes.
We think our cause is 'just'? That gives us the right to kill like we do?
We must back away from our destructive involvements in other nations policies.
We created the path for ISIS to walk.
Completely accurate. Sounds like rr just doesn't like it when murderers actually get their hands dirty. Al Qaeda and ISIS are def not on par with the US/NATO in violence...we have that contest won hands down. It's all perspective. ISIS, like Al Qaeda, is a creation of the western war machine....and not in a 'hamas is a result of the occupation' sense....these groups were actually created, armed, directed, and funded by us. The whole robbing banks and stealing arms thing might have some level of truth to it, but it is meant to obfuscate - where is the media attention to the CIA's roll with these groups in Libya and Syria?....It's casually mentioned as necessary evil, never a focal point. And so many of us pretend like this mistake won't be like the last one. I just don't get it. We critique the past but take nothing from it. We still pick and choose which victims of violence to 'help' (with our own violence), based on the nightly news.... Obama's legal authority to resume bombing Iraq was granted under the War Powers Resolution - no need for congressional oversight, because he claims he was protecting the troops he just fucking sent there....Talk about a setup....
I'm all for getting our hands dirty.Thats what happens when you deal with trash.You need to roll around with the filth and your not always gunna come out looking or smelling good. We also do good humanitarian things Isis,AQ does nothing of value.Not one thing.
This group has stated it wants the destruction of the USA.Stopping them at all costs while helping the affected people of the region must be imperative.
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
This is legitimate.
And whether knowingly or not... it tends to diminish the significance of said events by the deflection tactic. I don't care what the US has done... the events you described are indefensible. To my way of thinking, any allusion to the US in light of such topics serves somewhat as a rationale for the behaviours.
its not a 'deflection tactic'.
I'm saying. We created the monsters, by our own monstrous actions.
...and now its time to kill the monster.
and maybe learn a lesson from this although I highly doubt it. Whenever there is a almighty greenback dollar to be made, things tend to stay the same.
I know this old Zulu tale about a monster who was born by the negative energy of a people, when the people tried to kill this monster, they ended up just creating more monsters.
Until one day, a very wise man In a small village cut the head off of the man who was spearheading this 'attack the monsters' movement.
You know what happened after the leaders head got cut off? The monsters all died off.
We need to cut the head off of our imperialistic ways, perhaps, Maybe if we change our ways, maybe if we truly change, and act in a just way around the world, we will not create anymore monsters.
as far the Monsters in Iraq go, well. Lets not make the same mistake. This is not our backyard, let the middle east deal with itself.
otherwise, I agree with your post.
(now in my rush, I probably messed up my post, I'll have to get back to it later)
I agree with your sentiment about cleaning up our own backyard... it will take a long time I fear due to the deep entrenchment and $ trail. all the way from the federal reserve to the military complex to the private weapons manufacturers that are getting rich off of all these conflicts. I hope to see it change in my lifetime.
Where I disagree with you is in the current situation with ISIS and the refugees... I feel that we must as a moral obligation not let this genocide take place, same as I feel about Gaza (but that is a different thread).
I would feel this way about any innocent people that were being murdered by extremists.
As a country in position to help we must.
I dislike violence but as I said before... I feel that is the only way to deal with these fanatics.
I wish there were more countries in the region willing to help. Maybe there are, I just haven't seen them take definitive action.
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
I really wish there was a way to force ground troops into every conflict the US/NATO gets involved in, without air support. Air strikes and superior firepower are the only reason US/NATO citizens support their leaders’ military measures. When our casualties start to mount, suddenly helping other people isn’t so important. It’s pretty easy to say ‘we have to protect these people’ when that protection comes from naval ships 100 miles away, or planes thousands of feet above danger. Maybe we could put an international peacekeeping force on the ground, in defensive positions intended to protect civilians? Does the UN even fucking do that anymore? Seems the US/Nato have taken over that role of their own volition. I will join the chorus in saying ‘I don’t know what the answer is’, but I will not join in saying ‘we have to do something’…doing ‘something’ without a plan is what started this….unless, of course, the plan was to destabilize the entire middle east, redraw the maps, distribute the wealth to small puppet regimes, and create a caliphate run by ideological/religious extremists to encompass the rest of the land, whom we can demonize and go to war against for decades to come….Which wouldn’t surprise me, because experts began saying that the entire middle east would be destabilized if the US invaded Iraq, well before it did….Funding and arming militias was the next step…so it does look like ‘divide and conquer’ was the intent all along. These re-drawn maps and ‘target regimes’ have been used by think tanks and military planners for years now. Four straight presidents have bombed Iraq for humanitarian reasons. A lot of fucking good it’s done on that front….
I'm all for getting our hands dirty.Thats what happens when you deal with trash.You need to roll around with the filth and your not always gunna come out looking or smelling good. We also do good humanitarian things Isis,AQ does nothing of value.Not one thing.
This group has stated it wants the destruction of the USA.Stopping them at all costs while helping the affected people of the region must be imperative.
) All for getting your hands dirty, huh? Are you in the military rr? If not, but you have loved ones in the military….would you support putting them in harms way to fix the fuck ups of your country? Or do you just support getting your hands dirty from the buttons pushed to launch air strikes from safe positions? That is not rolling around in filth, and it sure makes it easier to stomach. Are you really worried about ISIS wanting to destroy the US? ) If so….where were your protests when we were arming them in Syria and Libya? Or was it necessary to ‘get your hands dirty’ to rid the world of the ‘sick fucks’ running those countries? What will the answer be when the next group rises from the ashes of ISIS and says ‘no more’ to the US/NATO? Reactionary thinking is what continues these cycles.
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
I see your point that there are varying degrees of sadism and violence, and I suppose maybe I could concede that it takes a more twisted person to cut a kid in half than to touch a button that will cut them in half….tho I have to wonder if the mother of a kid who watched their kid cut in half by a bomb, or cooked alive by white phosphorous would agree that there isn’t equivalence…..Still, your ‘fall back on the yeah, but, America…’ argument is not the starting point to this conversation. The starting point was about 60 years ago when we started fucking with Iran. The more recent reboot comes with the question ‘what should we do about this?’. Putting America in their usual position of judge, jury, executioner is what makes this about the US and it’s shortcomings. You can say ‘none of this excuses what the US does’, but do you support that statement? Or do you still think there is justification for ‘what the US does’ because of those varying degrees of sadism? Every. Single. Time, there is a reason being fed to us that we need to intervene…almost always related to security; either for western countries and their cultures, or for ‘lesser’ cultures who we see as incapable of sorting anything out themselves. Every. Single. Time, there is a ‘sick fuck’ who needs to be stopped. This time, we can throw in ‘we started this mess’.
We are being led down the garden path by guilt at our own acquiescence to violence…toward more violence. And to say it’s up to arab nations to deal with their own backyard completely ignores the fact that no country deals with anything militarily without our go-ahead. Does anyone really think we would let a rival nation deal with this threat? Not a fucking chance….they might gain power in the process, and despite our desire to see ourselves as benevolent in these endeavors, gaining and/or maintaining power is what they are really about.
Yes Drowned,I am close to some who serve.I do not.But I am involved in Certain Wounded Warrior projects and do what I can in that regard. I completely understand that situations like this do put our Military members in harms way.I think if we can deal with this issue from a ship,with a button or a drone instead of mixing it up with boots on the ground it is preferred. And yes I do have concerns that if this group along with others had enough slack they would definitely try to attack American Interests if opportunity presented itself ,and keeping proactive and vigilant is paramount.Dont you? As far as the next group? I don't have that answer.As long as idiots trying to push Fundamentalist Religious views down other people's throats this will keep on happening.
Yes Drowned,I am close to some who serve.I do not.But I am involved in Certain Wounded Warrior projects and do what I can in that regard. I completely understand that situations like this do put our Military members in harms way.I think if we can deal with this issue from a ship,with a button or a drone instead of mixing it up with boots on the ground it is preferred. And yes I do have concerns that if this group along with others had enough slack they would definitely try to attack American Interests if opportunity presented itself ,and keeping proactive and vigilant is paramount.Dont you? As far as the next group? I don't have that answer.As long as idiots trying to push Fundamentalist Religious views down other people's throats this will keep on happening.
What about the idiots pushing imperialist capitalist agendas down people's throats? I wonder how your wounded warriors would feel about going back to Iraq....?
I have zero concern for ISIS attacking any of my interests. Telling that you use the word 'interest' tho....because that is what this is about - protecting interests. Capitalist/Imperialist interests. If we have 'interests' that we're concerned about (ie: our citizens and businesses), would it not make more sense to remove them from danger than to protect them by attempting to destroy the danger? ISIS has no reach outside of countries we have no business trying to police.
Proactive, yes....vigilant, no. Do you support vigilantism is any other form of justice? or only foreign policy that doesn't affect US citizens directly in the short term? Proactive would be figuring out how to stop this from happening, not repeating the same mistakes over and over....
And as I mentioned - pushing a button from the air or sea does not constitute getting our hands dirty or rolling around in filth, nor does it put any soldiers in any danger; it's exactly how we end up with high civilian casualties and more people hating us, with little domestic resistance to what the government and military are doing.
Amazing how people can hate on Bush and the Iraq war...yet support the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes, when it's implementation as the new norm was the most damaging thing the dumb fuck ever did.
We Didnt think AQ had the reach they did at the time either.How did that turn out.Your Canadian right? So some of the wounded warriors are yours,not just mine. I do agree there are Idiots here pushing agendas,but I don't think this situation is agenda driven.Fix a mistake of premature withdrawal maybe,but this one is different action. Yes a proactive stance 3decades ago may have put us in a different spot now but that's rear view mirror shit. And unlike most on here I do think Vigilantism is justified from time to time depending on the circumstance.Sometimes justice does not get served by the justice system and I can see where alternate methods of"justice" have its place. And Bushs biggest problem Isnt the strike first mentality,its where and why he chose to strike.There were much more deserving targets.
Also why do you have Zero concern for Isis striking your interests?
We Didnt think AQ had the reach they did at the time either.How did that turn out.Your Canadian right? So some of the wounded warriors are yours,not just mine. I do agree there are Idiots here pushing agendas,but I don't think this situation is agenda driven.Fix a mistake of premature withdrawal maybe,but this one is different action. Yes a proactive stance 3decades ago may have put us in a different spot now but that's rear view mirror shit. And unlike most on here I do think Vigilantism is justified from time to time depending on the circumstance.Sometimes justice does not get served by the justice system and I can see where alternate methods of"justice" have its place. And Bushs biggest problem Isnt the strike first mentality,its where and why he chose to strike.There were much more deserving targets.
Also why do you have Zero concern for Isis striking your interests?
Sorry, 9/11 doesn’t sway me. I don’t believe the official narrative, and I don’t believe Al Qaeda had the reach you believe they had. I don’t know many military people up here…in fact, I’m not friends with any at all. But I do have close friends with family members in the military. When I’ve spoken my mind to them, I’ve been concerned that they’d react the way so many do when I say I don’t 'support the troops' in their actions (and that I think that term is meaningless)….but they told me they agreed with me in every way, including my disagreement with Canadian soldiers going to Afghanistan. In my experience, the soldiers here are more anti-war than nearly anyone else.
You called my version of pro-action ‘rearview mirror shit’ that ‘may have worked thirty years ago’….and say ‘it’s different this time’. This is what I was talking about – not learning from the past. We funded Saddam to fight Iran...a mistake. We gave him the mustard gas he used to gas Kurds; another justification for the invasion, and another mistake. Another prevalent narrative for the invasion was that we should have taken Saddam out the first time. Another mistake. Hindsight (rearview mirror shit) has changed that opinion. What is so different this time?
Vigilantism is pretty un-american, dude….why are you calling for the US to take care of this instead of calling for an international peace keeping force? Why not let the UN deal with it?
Why would I be worried about ISIS attacking my interests? I don’t own oil stocks (tho if I did, I’d probably be one of the soulless hoping for more gulf carnage). I don’t know any govt employees or contractors over there… I don’t think the ones who are there should be…and I don’t watch the news….therefore, I’m not afraid of the boogeyman. My point is – we create sympathy for these people with every errant bullet. People find solace in religion when they’re living thru violence and economic crisis – we create more extremists with every errant bomb. Do you really think this will fix anything? It’s a finger in the dyke….You already said you didn’t know what to do with the next group….so what are we fixing? When the next 9/11 happens, you’ll be calling for more arab/muslim blood and talking about your mistakes as if it’s always an accident, and there should be no consequence for them.
I don't have a problem with any country trying to stop ISIS and help the victims in this case. But I agree that the US has to stop short of being in another war in Iraq and that Iraq's closer neighbors needs to have as big a role as possible. To me, sending in ground troops would be going too far. Anything short of that to stop ISIS I'm fine with..... I really didn't have to think too hard about this one.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
We Didnt think AQ had the reach they did at the time either.How did that turn out.Your Canadian right? So some of the wounded warriors are yours,not just mine. I do agree there are Idiots here pushing agendas,but I don't think this situation is agenda driven.Fix a mistake of premature withdrawal maybe,but this one is different action. Yes a proactive stance 3decades ago may have put us in a different spot now but that's rear view mirror shit. And unlike most on here I do think Vigilantism is justified from time to time depending on the circumstance.Sometimes justice does not get served by the justice system and I can see where alternate methods of"justice" have its place. And Bushs biggest problem Isnt the strike first mentality,its where and why he chose to strike.There were much more deserving targets.
Also why do you have Zero concern for Isis striking your interests?
Sorry, 9/11 doesn’t sway me. I don’t believe the official narrative, and I don’t believe Al Qaeda had the reach you believe they had. I don’t know many military people up here…in fact, I’m not friends with any at all. But I do have close friends with family members in the military. When I’ve spoken my mind to them, I’ve been concerned that they’d react the way so many do when I say I don’t 'support the troops' in their actions (and that I think that term is meaningless)….but they told me they agreed with me in every way, including my disagreement with Canadian soldiers going to Afghanistan. In my experience, the soldiers here are more anti-war than nearly anyone else.
You called my version of pro-action ‘rearview mirror shit’ that ‘may have worked thirty years ago’….and say ‘it’s different this time’. This is what I was talking about – not learning from the past. We funded Saddam to fight Iran...a mistake. We gave him the mustard gas he used to gas Kurds; another justification for the invasion, and another mistake. Another prevalent narrative for the invasion was that we should have taken Saddam out the first time. Another mistake. Hindsight (rearview mirror shit) has changed that opinion. What is so different this time?
Vigilantism is pretty un-american, dude….why are you calling for the US to take care of this instead of calling for an international peace keeping force? Why not let the UN deal with it?
Why would I be worried about ISIS attacking my interests? I don’t own oil stocks (tho if I did, I’d probably be one of the soulless hoping for more gulf carnage). I don’t know any govt employees or contractors over there… I don’t think the ones who are there should be…and I don’t watch the news….therefore, I’m not afraid of the boogeyman. My point is – we create sympathy for these people with every errant bullet. People find solace in religion when they’re living thru violence and economic crisis – we create more extremists with every errant bomb. Do you really think this will fix anything? It’s a finger in the dyke….You already said you didn’t know what to do with the next group….so what are we fixing? When the next 9/11 happens, you’ll be calling for more arab/muslim blood and talking about your mistakes as if it’s always an accident, and there should be no consequence for them.
The goal is to not have another 9/11 ever happen again.That is the point.If it does happen those who are responsible should be dealt with swiftly.Anyone who funded them,The govts that supported and armed(yes I know sometimes we have armed the same in the past) and trained them also. If it happens on American soil then The American people will mandate action,The Pres will have full support of both parties in House and Senate,and have overwhelming pressure to react with more then just a measured response. Why not let the UN deal with it you say?Ewww the world police! They for the most part can't handle the "Get your hands dirty stuff".Properly. I don't call for Arab or Muslim blood,I would call the Organizations who did this head.Is that what you think I'm getting at?Some anti Arab,Anti Muslim reverse Jihad? If they are fundamentalist then they don't speak for the peaceful members of that religion.There are lots of Arabs.Plenty are our friends and don't want part of this kind of crap. The whole Suni/Shite thing is there own internal squabble.I just know you can't force your religion on others and expect things to go well. So if you don't care what happens,don't watch the news,and feel we are creating the monster then what is your stance in this Isis group.Do you understand and support them in there quest for taking over the Middle East ? Your well versed on history and politics of the region,I know from convos we had back on some older threads(PJ play Israel I think,if I'm wrong I'm sorry) That you sympathize with a lot of the people in that region.I mean if you don't care ,why worry so much about who we(the west) are tangling with.It sounds almost like you think we the West are the Bad guys and at fault for everything.
We've reached the point of the discussion we often reach on AMT, where a horror somewhere in the world is broken down into equivalency with something America is guilty of doing. When a woman is "convicted" of adultery, buried to her waste, and publicly stoned to death, we hear that America has a death penalty, too. When a woman is the victim of an "honor killing", carried out by members of her own family in an accepted practice, we hear that America has domestic violence, too. When a child is cut in half, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, in the name of religion and in 2014, we hear that America is guilty of killing innocents, too.
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
I see your point that there are varying degrees of sadism and violence, and I suppose maybe I could concede that it takes a more twisted person to cut a kid in half than to touch a button that will cut them in half….tho I have to wonder if the mother of a kid who watched their kid cut in half by a bomb, or cooked alive by white phosphorous would agree that there isn’t equivalence…..Still, your ‘fall back on the yeah, but, America…’ argument is not the starting point to this conversation. The starting point was about 60 years ago when we started fucking with Iran. The more recent reboot comes with the question ‘what should we do about this?’. Putting America in their usual position of judge, jury, executioner is what makes this about the US and it’s shortcomings. You can say ‘none of this excuses what the US does’, but do you support that statement? Or do you still think there is justification for ‘what the US does’ because of those varying degrees of sadism? Every. Single. Time, there is a reason being fed to us that we need to intervene…almost always related to security; either for western countries and their cultures, or for ‘lesser’ cultures who we see as incapable of sorting anything out themselves. Every. Single. Time, there is a ‘sick fuck’ who needs to be stopped. This time, we can throw in ‘we started this mess’.
We are being led down the garden path by guilt at our own acquiescence to violence…toward more violence. And to say it’s up to arab nations to deal with their own backyard completely ignores the fact that no country deals with anything militarily without our go-ahead. Does anyone really think we would let a rival nation deal with this threat? Not a fucking chance….they might gain power in the process, and despite our desire to see ourselves as benevolent in these endeavors, gaining and/or maintaining power is what they are really about.
Sixty years? I would say the ethnic, religious and tribal rivalries in that region date back much further than that.
I do think ISIS needs to be stopped, yes. My position has remained the same for eleven years. There was never a reason to invade back in 2003, yet invade we did. We broke that country and, yes, we do bare a responsibility to the people there. I don't think we can ever truly leave because I don't think the problems can ever truly be fixed, but ISIS can be rolled back. And it should be.
We can argue about past interventions and whether or not the US should have gotten involved. In most instances I think we are going to agree that the answer is no. Not this time, though. Not when it is happening in a vaccum created by what I believe to be the worst foreign policy blunder of my lifetime. This time the answer is yes.
Comments
So it looks like you'll drop water so they aren't thirsty during their slaughter.
I understand your position though. Intervention doesn't seem to be making the world more stable. It is just crazy that in 2014 civilians are getting massacred and a country that can help wouldn't even try. Evil will florish as good men and women choose to not even try to stop it. There is no good answer.
If we want to talk about the hypothetical then the answer is definitely shorter and easier to give.
I think I agree with most of your views, but I think it would be difficult to not stand up to ISIS and save those refugees. Easy for me to say though as I am not in the military risking my life. It is like a bully on the playground. Some kids are just helpless and someone who has the ability needs to recognize the problem and step-in. Unfortunately, the side that needs help at the time becomes the enemy at some point a lot of times.
I'm not just criticizing our foreign policy, I'm straight up saying that its wrong and a major cause for many of the issues we are facing today.
They cut kids in half? We have given kids birth defects and cancers (for generations to come) we slaughter by the dozen's in drone strikes.
We think our cause is 'just'? That gives us the right to kill like we do?
We must back away from our destructive involvements in other nations policies.
We created the path for ISIS to walk.
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
ISIS, like Al Qaeda, is a creation of the western war machine....and not in a 'hamas is a result of the occupation' sense....these groups were actually created, armed, directed, and funded by us. The whole robbing banks and stealing arms thing might have some level of truth to it, but it is meant to obfuscate - where is the media attention to the CIA's roll with these groups in Libya and Syria?....It's casually mentioned as necessary evil, never a focal point.
And so many of us pretend like this mistake won't be like the last one. I just don't get it. We critique the past but take nothing from it. We still pick and choose which victims of violence to 'help' (with our own violence), based on the nightly news....
Obama's legal authority to resume bombing Iraq was granted under the War Powers Resolution - no need for congressional oversight, because he claims he was protecting the troops he just fucking sent there....Talk about a setup....
It's a strange allusion, but it makes me think of Food, Inc. - how many people would cease to eat red meat after a visit to a slaughterhouse? Instead, we go to the grocery store and get a lovely, sliced piece of meat on top of a packet to catch the blood and juices, with styrofoam underneath it, and a piece of cling wrap with a sticker showing a beautifully prepared steak on top. It may be a mask for brutality, but it doesn't change the events which transpired, or the outcome (dead animals). PS, I'm not advocating vegetarianism - I love meat. It's been interesting travelling to some developing nations: from my experience, when I order fish, and there's a full fish on my plate with its head still on - it's going to be delicious. We don't do that in North America. We give a loin, already scaled, or something that we can't compare to a living, breathing animal. We're okay with the death - just not the brutality, or the emotions that come with it.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
All of the above statements are factually correct. The U.S. does have a death penalty, does have domestic violence, and has killed innocents during military operations. However, the American death penalty is not equal to the public execution of women who have committed no crime. Domestic violence in the U.S. is not equal to a sanctioned honor killing by a girl's family. And when a child is deliberately ripped from its mother's arms, is cut in half while she watches, has its head removed and placed onto a spike, all because its family did not convert to the killer's "religion", that does not equal a family being caught in a drone strike.
None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
If the US had no part in this conflict I would agree that there would be no place for even a mere mention of the US here.
That being said - I agree with you that the prime focus of a a thread entitled Iraq should actually be, go figure, Iraq. And I also agree that what's happening there is horrendous, and just plain evil.
EV
Toronto Film Festival 9/11/2007, '08 - Toronto 1 & 2, '09 - Albany 1, '11 - Chicago 1
I am all for attention being put on the shady dealings of America's military industrial complex but right now stopping these sick fucks should be priority regardless of how you feel about America's shortcomings.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
And whether knowingly or not... it tends to diminish the significance of said events by the deflection tactic. I don't care what the US has done... the events you described are indefensible. To my way of thinking, any allusion to the US in light of such topics serves somewhat as a rationale for the behaviours.
its about History, and learning from it.
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jimmyV you said.
*None of this is an excuse for what the US is guilty of doing. That is not at all my point. But if you constantly fall back on the "Yeah, but, America..." argument, regardless of any details that don't fit, to me that is no different than someone who blindly defends every American action, chants "USA, USA" and speaks of 'Murica*
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Sorry but the shoe fits, and the united states should wear it.
its not some "yeah, but America..." argument. (as u say).
The United States (and her allies) are responsible for this. That's it.
We kill innocent people via (example) drone strikes, and to you the innocent victims were just "caught In a drone strike". The wedding the U.S. Bombed was just in the wrong place at the wrong time, The kids getting murdered while playing soccer I guess were just simply "caught" In a Drone strike too, kids yet to be born in Iraq will be born with illnesses and birth defects, cause their mothers or grandmothers just happen to inhale the DU the U.S. Dropped years ago causing it.
and I'm sorry, but dropping a 5k bomb on a home, knowing full well innocent people will die, sorry, but that is the U.S. (NATO).
and this other stuff about honor killings and whatever else, please educate yourself a bit better. Its not some accepted practice (as u say), majority of these people do not support such things.
I'm saying. We created the monsters, by our own monstrous actions.
and maybe learn a lesson from this although I highly doubt it.
Whenever there is a almighty greenback dollar to be made,
things tend to stay the same.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
Until one day, a very wise man In a small village cut the head off of the man who was spearheading this 'attack the monsters' movement.
You know what happened after the leaders head got cut off? The monsters all died off.
We need to cut the head off of our imperialistic ways, perhaps, Maybe if we change our ways, maybe if we truly change, and act in a just way around the world, we will not create anymore monsters.
as far the Monsters in Iraq go, well. Lets not make the same mistake. This is not our backyard, let the middle east deal with itself.
otherwise, I agree with your post.
(now in my rush, I probably messed up my post, I'll have to get back to it later)
And where exactly does one draw the line when trying to explain the reasons for current actions? When one person cites the US is responsible for shaping current mentalities and actions in the middle east, does another suggest Al Qaeda and the events of 9-11 motivated the US, and then, eventually, does one look back to the fight for independence (or even further) to try and explain how we have come to here?
The US has been on trial several times for several years on this forum for their foreign policies. They are definitely guilty of some poor things, but for right now in this particular thread, let's allow these savages to own their brutal behaviours without referencing others'.
This group has stated it wants the destruction of the USA.Stopping them at all costs while helping the affected people of the region must be imperative.
it will take a long time I fear due to the deep entrenchment and $ trail.
all the way from the federal reserve to the military complex to the private weapons manufacturers that are getting rich off of all these conflicts.
I hope to see it change in my lifetime.
Where I disagree with you is in the current situation with ISIS and the refugees...
I feel that we must as a moral obligation not let this genocide take place,
same as I feel about Gaza (but that is a different thread).
I would feel this way about any innocent people that were being murdered by extremists.
As a country in position to help we must.
I dislike violence but as I said before... I feel that is the only way to deal with these fanatics.
I wish there were more countries in the region willing to help. Maybe there are, I just haven't seen them take definitive action.
livefootsteps.org/user/?usr=446
1995- New Orleans, LA : New Orleans, LA
1996- Charleston, SC
1998- Atlanta, GA: Birmingham, AL: Greenville, SC: Knoxville, TN
2000- Atlanta, GA: New Orleans, LA: Memphis, TN: Nashville, TN
2003- Raleigh, NC: Charlotte, NC: Atlanta, GA
2004- Asheville, NC (hometown show)
2006- Cincinnati, OH
2008- Columbia, SC
2009- Chicago, IL x 2 / Ed Vedder- Atlanta, GA x 2
2010- Bristow, VA
2011- Alpine Valley, WI (PJ20) x 2 / Ed Vedder- Chicago, IL
2012- Atlanta, GA
2013- Charlotte, NC
2014- Cincinnati, OH
2015- New York, NY
2016- Greenville, SC: Hampton, VA:: Columbia, SC: Raleigh, NC : Lexington, KY: Philly, PA 2: (Wrigley) Chicago, IL x 2 (holy shit): Temple of the Dog- Philly, PA
2017- ED VED- Louisville, KY
2018- Chicago, IL x2, Boston, MA x2
2020- Nashville, TN
2022- Smashville
2023- Austin, TX x2
2024- Baltimore
I see your point that there are varying degrees of sadism and violence, and I suppose maybe I could concede that it takes a more twisted person to cut a kid in half than to touch a button that will cut them in half….tho I have to wonder if the mother of a kid who watched their kid cut in half by a bomb, or cooked alive by white phosphorous would agree that there isn’t equivalence…..Still, your ‘fall back on the yeah, but, America…’ argument is not the starting point to this conversation. The starting point was about 60 years ago when we started fucking with Iran. The more recent reboot comes with the question ‘what should we do about this?’. Putting America in their usual position of judge, jury, executioner is what makes this about the US and it’s shortcomings. You can say ‘none of this excuses what the US does’, but do you support that statement? Or do you still think there is justification for ‘what the US does’ because of those varying degrees of sadism? Every. Single. Time, there is a reason being fed to us that we need to intervene…almost always related to security; either for western countries and their cultures, or for ‘lesser’ cultures who we see as incapable of sorting anything out themselves. Every. Single. Time, there is a ‘sick fuck’ who needs to be stopped. This time, we can throw in ‘we started this mess’.
We are being led down the garden path by guilt at our own acquiescence to violence…toward more violence. And to say it’s up to arab nations to deal with their own backyard completely ignores the fact that no country deals with anything militarily without our go-ahead. Does anyone really think we would let a rival nation deal with this threat? Not a fucking chance….they might gain power in the process, and despite our desire to see ourselves as benevolent in these endeavors, gaining and/or maintaining power is what they are really about.
I completely understand that situations like this do put our Military members in harms way.I think if we can deal with this issue from a ship,with a button or a drone instead of mixing it up with boots on the ground it is preferred.
And yes I do have concerns that if this group along with others had enough slack they would definitely try to attack American Interests if opportunity presented itself ,and keeping proactive and vigilant is paramount.Dont you?
As far as the next group? I don't have that answer.As long as idiots trying to push Fundamentalist Religious views down other people's throats this will keep on happening.
I wonder how your wounded warriors would feel about going back to Iraq....?
I have zero concern for ISIS attacking any of my interests. Telling that you use the word 'interest' tho....because that is what this is about - protecting interests. Capitalist/Imperialist interests. If we have 'interests' that we're concerned about (ie: our citizens and businesses), would it not make more sense to remove them from danger than to protect them by attempting to destroy the danger? ISIS has no reach outside of countries we have no business trying to police.
Proactive, yes....vigilant, no. Do you support vigilantism is any other form of justice? or only foreign policy that doesn't affect US citizens directly in the short term? Proactive would be figuring out how to stop this from happening, not repeating the same mistakes over and over....
And as I mentioned - pushing a button from the air or sea does not constitute getting our hands dirty or rolling around in filth, nor does it put any soldiers in any danger; it's exactly how we end up with high civilian casualties and more people hating us, with little domestic resistance to what the government and military are doing.
Amazing how people can hate on Bush and the Iraq war...yet support the Bush Doctrine of pre-emptive strikes, when it's implementation as the new norm was the most damaging thing the dumb fuck ever did.
I do agree there are Idiots here pushing agendas,but I don't think this situation is agenda driven.Fix a mistake of premature withdrawal maybe,but this one is different action.
Yes a proactive stance 3decades ago may have put us in a different spot now but that's rear view mirror shit.
And unlike most on here I do think Vigilantism is justified from time to time depending on the circumstance.Sometimes justice does not get served by the justice system and I can see where alternate methods of"justice" have its place.
And Bushs biggest problem Isnt the strike first mentality,its where and why he chose to strike.There were much more deserving targets.
Also why do you have Zero concern for Isis striking your interests?
You called my version of pro-action ‘rearview mirror shit’ that ‘may have worked thirty years ago’….and say ‘it’s different this time’. This is what I was talking about – not learning from the past. We funded Saddam to fight Iran...a mistake. We gave him the mustard gas he used to gas Kurds; another justification for the invasion, and another mistake. Another prevalent narrative for the invasion was that we should have taken Saddam out the first time. Another mistake. Hindsight (rearview mirror shit) has changed that opinion. What is so different this time?
Vigilantism is pretty un-american, dude….why are you calling for the US to take care of this instead of calling for an international peace keeping force? Why not let the UN deal with it?
Why would I be worried about ISIS attacking my interests? I don’t own oil stocks (tho if I did, I’d probably be one of the soulless hoping for more gulf carnage). I don’t know any govt employees or contractors over there… I don’t think the ones who are there should be…and I don’t watch the news….therefore, I’m not afraid of the boogeyman. My point is – we create sympathy for these people with every errant bullet. People find solace in religion when they’re living thru violence and economic crisis – we create more extremists with every errant bomb. Do you really think this will fix anything? It’s a finger in the dyke….You already said you didn’t know what to do with the next group….so what are we fixing?
When the next 9/11 happens, you’ll be calling for more arab/muslim blood and talking about your mistakes as if it’s always an accident, and there should be no consequence for them.
If it happens on American soil then The American people will mandate action,The Pres will have full support of both parties in House and Senate,and have overwhelming pressure to react with more then just a measured response.
Why not let the UN deal with it you say?Ewww the world police! They for the most part can't handle the "Get your hands dirty stuff".Properly.
I don't call for Arab or Muslim blood,I would call the Organizations who did this head.Is that what you think I'm getting at?Some anti Arab,Anti Muslim reverse Jihad? If they are fundamentalist then they don't speak for the peaceful members of that religion.There are lots of Arabs.Plenty are our friends and don't want part of this kind of crap.
The whole Suni/Shite thing is there own internal squabble.I just know you can't force your religion on others and expect things to go well.
So if you don't care what happens,don't watch the news,and feel we are creating the monster then what is your stance in this Isis group.Do you understand and support them in there quest for taking over the Middle East ?
Your well versed on history and politics of the region,I know from convos we had back on some older threads(PJ play Israel I think,if I'm wrong I'm sorry) That you sympathize with a lot of the people in that region.I mean if you don't care ,why worry so much about who we(the west) are tangling with.It sounds almost like you think we the West are the Bad guys and at fault for everything.
We are being led down the garden path by guilt at our own acquiescence to violence…toward more violence. And to say it’s up to arab nations to deal with their own backyard completely ignores the fact that no country deals with anything militarily without our go-ahead. Does anyone really think we would let a rival nation deal with this threat? Not a fucking chance….they might gain power in the process, and despite our desire to see ourselves as benevolent in these endeavors, gaining and/or maintaining power is what they are really about.
Sixty years? I would say the ethnic, religious and tribal rivalries in that region date back much further than that.
I do think ISIS needs to be stopped, yes. My position has remained the same for eleven years. There was never a reason to invade back in 2003, yet invade we did. We broke that country and, yes, we do bare a responsibility to the people there. I don't think we can ever truly leave because I don't think the problems can ever truly be fixed, but ISIS can be rolled back. And it should be.
We can argue about past interventions and whether or not the US should have gotten involved. In most instances I think we are going to agree that the answer is no. Not this time, though. Not when it is happening in a vaccum created by what I believe to be the worst foreign policy blunder of my lifetime. This time the answer is yes.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."