Iraq

Last-12-Exit

Jeffbr, you stole my thunder with that response. )

callen

Under Obama economy turning around from total mess. Repealed DADT. Equal rights for homosexuals. Mostly kept out of Libya, Syria, Egypt and trying to stay out of Iraq. Pulled troops out of Iraq and soon Afghanistan. Trying to get healthcare for all. Isn't messing with Colorado and Washington on MJ. All with congress fighting every step just to keep him from succeeding

I know not perfect and you can disagree on some of his initiatives.

Just imagine if Palin and McCain were in office.

Cosmo

Jason P said:

The Kurds may be the solution. I didn't realize they were as well equiped as they are.

Cosmo said:

We should not send in air strikes. If we do, we are taking the Shi'ite side in Iraq's Sectarian violence. Iraq needs to stop basing their government policies based on Sunni-Shi'ia-Kurd.
If Iraq wants a military backbone for only the Shi'ites in Iraq... they can go ask Iran to help them.

Haven't we already taken the Shiite side? If the Iraqi army can make a kill only because we are spotting for them, that's not much difference then the US directly pulling the trigger. It's the semantic equivilent of soldier / advisor. I think we will either ramp up support in the future or seal a deal with Iran (which would be political suicide).

It's interesting that the Kurds appear to have a Sunni majority but they are taking it to ISIS. They must follow the sane version of Sunni.

...
I don't believe so. We tried to keep Iraq as one nation, even though there were internal voices that wanted Iraq split into 3 seperate states... based upon the relgious sects. The problem was... the oil. The Sunnis would be left out of the oil business because the oil is in the Kurdish region to the North and the Shi'ia region towards the East.
The Shi'ita majority elected a Shi'ia rule (whoda thunkit?). This tossed the Sunnis out of power. And the al-Maliki government leans towards the majority. Al-Maliki has done little to bridge the rift with the Sunnis and has basically set up a Shi'ia driven government.
That is what the fighting is about. I.S.I.S. wants a Sunni Islamic State in those sections of Iraq and Syria... similar to the Kurdish dream of a Kurdish state carved out of Iraq and Southern Turkey.
....
You know what my solutions is? Take all of them fuckers in the Middle East (including Israel and Turkey)... lock them in a room with a map of the region... erase all of the border lines drawn up by the British all those years ago... and make them draw up a map they all can agree on. They all have to agree that Israel has a right to exist and Israel has to agree that if they argue the borders God gave them in Genesis... not the borders described to Moses in Numbers, they have to agree to take in the people who current live on those lands as part of their citizenry an also have a right to live there.

Cosmo

Last-12-Exit said:

I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

...
From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
...
George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Cosmo said:

Last-12-Exit said:

I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

...
From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
...
George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.

One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?

njnancy

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

Cosmo said:

Last-12-Exit said:

I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

...
From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
...
George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.

One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?

What President are you speaking about?

Every war that we have been involved with, including military actions, have caused the deaths of civilians. I'm not saying this is a good thing; just pointing out that some Presidents who are considered to be high on the list have been war time presidents, actually most.

Cosmo

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

Cosmo said:

Last-12-Exit said:

I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

...
From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
...
George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.

One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?

...
Slavery went on for decades. Who knows the death toll caused by it. The death toll from Viet Nam is estimated to be about 5 to 6 million... upwards of 4 million Vietnamese (both sides) and another 2 million Cambodians and Laotians along with the 60,000 U.S. servicemen and women.
From a purely American History standpoint... when ranking our Presidents... Slavery and the Civil War along side the genocide of the Native American Indians are the worst things that happened to us, by us, in our history books.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Yes, it did. I guess i just dont attribute as much death to slavery as i do iraq. But i absolutely could be mistaken.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

I must looked it up, and at least one sour e attributes 5 million deaths to slavery, so i was wrong.

Byrnzie

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

Interesting. Obama is listed as 15th best all time.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

No offense, but I think that ranking Presidents, like they're all contestants on Pop Idol, is part of the problem.
They're just politicians anyway. Businessmen. Hucksters. In the big scheme of things, how much respect do you give these people? Most of them are criminals guilty of mass murder. Even the least offensive among them are at least guilty of lying and deceiving.
Seriously, why place them on a pedestal? As far as I'm concerned, 99% of politicians are dog shit. They represent the worst of human beings in this World. The most unimaginative, dishonest, harmful, and insidious individuals that our society produces, except maybe for lawyers. Then again, Obama was previously a lawyer, as was Tony Blair.

Maybe it's the modern media age that's helped to elevate these people onto some kind of platform representing the pinnacle of success. A platform populated with liars and murderers that we're somehow still expected to revere and respect.

Personally, I say fuck these people. And those faces on Mount Rushmore should be dynamited.

The Waiting Trophy Man

^^I like you

PJ_Soul

Cosmo said:

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

Cosmo said:

Last-12-Exit said:

I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

...
From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
...
George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.

One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?

...
Slavery went on for decades. Who knows the death toll caused by it. The death toll from Viet Nam is estimated to be about 5 to 6 million... upwards of 4 million Vietnamese (both sides) and another 2 million Cambodians and Laotians along with the 60,000 U.S. servicemen and women.
From a purely American History standpoint... when ranking our Presidents... Slavery and the Civil War along side the genocide of the Native American Indians are the worst things that happened to us, by us, in our history books.

Slavery in America went on for more than two centuries. Millions of Africans and African decedent s died as a direct result of the slave trade and slave procurement. Around 12 million people were stolen from Africa, 15% of them died just on the way over, not to mention all the Africans who were killed during raids in their own lands. And then all the slaves who were killed/worked/abuse to death after they arrived, and then generations after them - in the millions.

As for Natives, well, they were pretty much decimated.

njnancy

Byrnzie said:

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

Interesting. Obama is listed as 15th best all time.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

No offense, but I think that ranking Presidents, like they're all contestants on Pop Idol, is part of the problem.
They're just politicians anyway. Businessmen. Hucksters. In the big scheme of things, how much respect do you give these people? Most of them are criminals guilty of mass murder. Even the least offensive among them are at least guilty of lying and deceiving.
Seriously, why place them on a pedestal? As far as I'm concerned, 99% of politicians are dog shit. They represent the worst of human beings in this World. The most unimaginative, dishonest, harmful, and insidious individuals that our society produces, except maybe for lawyers. Then again, Obama was previously a lawyer, as was Tony Blair.

Maybe it's the modern media age that's helped to elevate these people onto some kind of platform representing the pinnacle of success. A platform populated with liars and murderers that we're somehow still expected to revere and respect.

Personally, I say fuck these people. And those faces on Mount Rushmore should be dynamited.

I began a response several times until I realized that there was nothing I could say that would matter. Wow.

Halifax2TheMax

Cosmo said:

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

Cosmo said:

Last-12-Exit said:

I agree with your last post Hugh, except I think Obama will go down along with Bush in the bottom 5 of the worst president list.

...
From a purely historical viewpoint... you have to be 100 times worse than Bush to beat the ineptness and corruption of Harding. Also, there are all of those presidents that supported slavery and brought us to the Civil War.
Iraq pales in comparison to slavery and the Civil War as the worst things to ever happen to our country.
...
George W. Bush and Barack Obama will place somewhere closer to the middle.

One million civilians dead in iraq pales in comparison to slavery?

...
Slavery went on for decades. Who knows the death toll caused by it. The death toll from Viet Nam is estimated to be about 5 to 6 million... upwards of 4 million Vietnamese (both sides) and another 2 million Cambodians and Laotians along with the 60,000 U.S. servicemen and women.
From a purely American History standpoint... when ranking our Presidents... Slavery and the Civil War along side the genocide of the Native American Indians are the worst things that happened to us, by us, in our history books.

Source? Those numbers seem extreme to me. Not discounting your argument but I'd like to see where you came up with the numbers of dead.

Peace.

Halifax2TheMax

Byrnzie said:

Hugh Freaking Dillon said:

Interesting. Obama is listed as 15th best all time.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_Presidents_of_the_United_States

No offense, but I think that ranking Presidents, like they're all contestants on Pop Idol, is part of the problem.
They're just politicians anyway. Businessmen. Hucksters. In the big scheme of things, how much respect do you give these people? Most of them are criminals guilty of mass murder. Even the least offensive among them are at least guilty of lying and deceiving.
Seriously, why place them on a pedestal? As far as I'm concerned, 99% of politicians are dog shit. They represent the worst of human beings in this World. The most unimaginative, dishonest, harmful, and insidious individuals that our society produces, except maybe for lawyers. Then again, Obama was previously a lawyer, as was Tony Blair.

Maybe it's the modern media age that's helped to elevate these people onto some kind of platform representing the pinnacle of success. A platform populated with liars and murderers that we're somehow still expected to revere and respect.

Personally, I say fuck these people. And those faces on Mount Rushmore should be dynamited.

You sound shrill. What's up? Should we degenerate into familial clans like Iraq? What's the ideal society to you?

Peace.

Byrnzie

Halifax2TheMax said:

You sound shrill. What's up? Should we degenerate into familial clans like Iraq? What's the ideal society to you?

Peace

The ideal society? No idea. But maybe it'd be one that wasn't driven primarily by money and war, and whose leaders weren't driven solely by greed and lies.

Maybe we can compare it to a country like, say, Finland?

Though personally, my idea of an 'ideal society' would probably look more like a tribal - or semi-tribal - society that still lives in some sort of respectful relationship with it's environment. I recently watched a documentary called 'South Pacific' and they showed a society of people who live on an island called Anuta - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuta
There are no politicians on Anuta.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tribe/tribes/anuta/
'Concern for others is the backbone of Anutan philosophy. 'Aropa' is a concept for giving and sharing, roughly translated as compassion, love and affection. Aropa informs the way Anutans treat one another and it is demonstrated through the giving and sharing of material goods such as food. For example, the land on Anuta is shared among the family units so that each family can cultivate enough food to feed themselves and those around them.

...The young people of Anuta do not share all of the chiefs' opinions, but Anuta is one of the most isolated communities on earth so change happens slowly. At the moment the island is stable and balanced both socially and environmentally. The resources are sufficient to satisfy the population, and the attitude that the Anutans share for one another, aropa, promotes co-operation and sustainability.

...Due to its remote geographical location, Anuta's environment, traditions and culture have been well preserved. The Anutans value their traditional practices such as travelling in their hand-carved outriggers. The island provides an abundance of crops, fish, and a high quality water source from a natural spring; Anuta has successfully supported the dense population for centuries and will hopefully continue to do so.'


Or maybe the Sng'oi of Malaysia - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892818662/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Byrnzie

njnancy said:

I began a response several times until I realized that there was nothing I could say that would matter. Wow.

Why? You don't think there are Americans more worthy of admiration than it's politicians?

Why put the heads of politicians on Mount Rushmore? (By the way, that monument was created by a racist and a member of the Ku Klux Klan, and was built on land stolen from the Lakota Sioux).

Many people are deluded in thinking that change comes from above - top-down. It doesn't. It almost always come from below. You think Lincoln was solely responsible for ending slavery? The abolitionist movement deserves more credit. Put the head of Frederick Douglas up on Mount Rushmore instead - or better still, pick a different place - one that isn't Indian sacred land.

You want the head of a great American carved into a rock face? How about carving the head of Walt Whitman instead?

njnancy

Byrnzie said:

Halifax2TheMax said:

You sound shrill. What's up? Should we degenerate into familial clans like Iraq? What's the ideal society to you?

Peace

The ideal society? No idea. But maybe it'd be one that wasn't driven primarily by money and war, and whose leaders weren't driven solely by greed and lies.

Maybe we can compare it to a country like, say, Finland?

Though personally, my idea of an 'ideal society' would probably look more like a tribal - or semi-tribal - society that still lives in some sort of respectful relationship with it's environment. I recently watched a documentary called 'South Pacific' and they showed a society of people who live on an island called Anuta - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anuta
There are no politicians on Anuta.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/tribe/tribes/anuta/
'Concern for others is the backbone of Anutan philosophy. 'Aropa' is a concept for giving and sharing, roughly translated as compassion, love and affection. Aropa informs the way Anutans treat one another and it is demonstrated through the giving and sharing of material goods such as food. For example, the land on Anuta is shared among the family units so that each family can cultivate enough food to feed themselves and those around them.

...The young people of Anuta do not share all of the chiefs' opinions, but Anuta is one of the most isolated communities on earth so change happens slowly. At the moment the island is stable and balanced both socially and environmentally. The resources are sufficient to satisfy the population, and the attitude that the Anutans share for one another, aropa, promotes co-operation and sustainability.

...Due to its remote geographical location, Anuta's environment, traditions and culture have been well preserved. The Anutans value their traditional practices such as travelling in their hand-carved outriggers. The island provides an abundance of crops, fish, and a high quality water source from a natural spring; Anuta has successfully supported the dense population for centuries and will hopefully continue to do so.'


Or maybe the Sng'oi of Malaysia - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0892818662/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Will they allow you to bring a laptop to the Anutan community? And when the resources begin to dwindle, I would imagine a leadership would need to be formed in order to preserve the well-being of the society. The beginning of a government.

You could live in an 'off the grid' community also - there are varied ones from which to choose.

As far as an ideal society, on paper they sound great; in practice, there is no such thing as ideal in any society. Human beings are imperfect; so a lot of us try to better ourselves knowing that we will never reach perfection. Actually what makes us flawed so many times is what shapes us and makes us interesting.

Dynamiting those fucks off Mount Rushmore sounds rather anarchistic, nothing like the peace and love you claim you yearn to live amongst. Besides, no one can touch Mount Rushmore until they finish adding Obama.

Byrnzie

njnancy said:

Dynamiting those fucks off Mount Rushmore sounds rather anarchistic, nothing like the peace and love you claim you yearn to live amongst. Besides, no one can touch Mount Rushmore until they finish adding Obama.

It's only a rock face. I don't think it'll feel any pain.

njnancy

Byrnzie said:

njnancy said:

Dynamiting those fucks off Mount Rushmore sounds rather anarchistic, nothing like the peace and love you claim you yearn to live amongst. Besides, no one can touch Mount Rushmore until they finish adding Obama.

It's only a rock face. I don't think it'll feel any pain.

>:) And they'll be more room for Obama!