I dont understand how someone else's 3 year old would ruin anyone elses enjoyment of a concert...
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
It would ruin my enjoyment of a concert in many possible ways:
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.
Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Brought my 10 year old to the buffalo show...he had a blast and I did it for him, not me.
As for a 3 year old? I wouldn't do it...for many reasons. But none of those reason would come near me thinking it would be abuse. I wouldn't do it because he wouldn't remember, because I would be completely unable to enjoy myself, because its not for me. But I don't really care what someone else does with their ticket.
I'd much rather see a pleasant 3 year old there than a douche bag 30 year old drunk guy....but again, I don't really care. It's your ticket.
Is there beer and weed at concerts? Yes. Is there beer and weed everywhere? Pretty much. The guys in front of us lit one up and my boy smelled it...I in no way think that makes me a bad parent. Him, being 10, and I had a very informative convo about it on the way home. I'm glad those guys didn't think twice about it. It's 2.5 hours of my sons hopefully long life. And I think he'll have amazing memories of that night. I know I will.
Life is all about experiences. Don't worry so much about other people's choices. Make the ones you want to make. That dude and his 3 year old aren't going to affect your good time at the concert.
Look at me handing out life lessons! anyway....just my opinion on it. As you were.
some of you could learn a lot from this post.
Some people could, but some are too dug into their firm perspective to even be open to considering this post. I think it's excellent, and I understand that this poster would make a different choice than I did. But at least it's stated reasonably and she explains how she got to her perspective.
I dont understand how someone else's 3 year old would ruin anyone elses enjoyment of a concert...
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
It would ruin my enjoyment of a concert in many possible ways:
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
:thumbup:
Well said. With young children of my own, these would be my thoughts exactly.
Brought my 10 year old to the buffalo show...he had a blast and I did it for him, not me.
As for a 3 year old? I wouldn't do it...for many reasons. But none of those reason would come near me thinking it would be abuse. I wouldn't do it because he wouldn't remember, because I would be completely unable to enjoy myself, because its not for me. But I don't really care what someone else does with their ticket.
I'd much rather see a pleasant 3 year old there than a douche bag 30 year old drunk guy....but again, I don't really care. It's your ticket.
Is there beer and weed at concerts? Yes. Is there beer and weed everywhere? Pretty much. The guys in front of us lit one up and my boy smelled it...I in no way think that makes me a bad parent. Him, being 10, and I had a very informative convo about it on the way home. I'm glad those guys didn't think twice about it. It's 2.5 hours of my sons hopefully long life. And I think he'll have amazing memories of that night. I know I will.
Life is all about experiences. Don't worry so much about other people's choices. Make the ones you want to make. That dude and his 3 year old aren't going to affect your good time at the concert.
Look at me handing out life lessons! anyway....just my opinion on it. As you were.
Well actually, someone and their 3 year old would affect my good time at a concert if they were sitting by me. I'm not saying that's their problem, but I wouldn't be able to have as good a time.
Also, really? There is beer and weed pretty much everywhere?? I don't think so.
Why wouldn't you be able to have a good time? How exactly would that 3 yr old's presence impact you?
Edited to add: Never mind, Is see you already answered this.
Brought my 10 year old to the buffalo show...he had a blast and I did it for him, not me.
As for a 3 year old? I wouldn't do it...for many reasons. But none of those reason would come near me thinking it would be abuse. I wouldn't do it because he wouldn't remember, because I would be completely unable to enjoy myself, because its not for me. But I don't really care what someone else does with their ticket.
I'd much rather see a pleasant 3 year old there than a douche bag 30 year old drunk guy....but again, I don't really care. It's your ticket.
Is there beer and weed at concerts? Yes. Is there beer and weed everywhere? Pretty much. The guys in front of us lit one up and my boy smelled it...I in no way think that makes me a bad parent. Him, being 10, and I had a very informative convo about it on the way home. I'm glad those guys didn't think twice about it. It's 2.5 hours of my sons hopefully long life. And I think he'll have amazing memories of that night. I know I will.
Life is all about experiences. Don't worry so much about other people's choices. Make the ones you want to make. That dude and his 3 year old aren't going to affect your good time at the concert.
Look at me handing out life lessons! anyway....just my opinion on it. As you were.
Well actually, someone and their 3 year old would affect my good time at a concert if they were sitting by me. I'm not saying that's their problem, but I wouldn't be able to have as good a time.
Also, really? There is beer and weed pretty much everywhere?? I don't think so.
Why wouldn't you be able to have a good time? How exactly would that 3 yr old's presence impact you?
Just answered that.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I dont understand how someone else's 3 year old would ruin anyone elses enjoyment of a concert...
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
It would ruin my enjoyment of a concert in many possible ways:
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.
Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
Would you feel the same way at a baseball game? I generally hear more swearing there. Also, more drinking. And more ass-grabbery. Granted, most people dont dance with mary jane at a ball game. But still. And that same kid is staying up past 10pm. (I think this is the worst part of the argument, to be honest. My kid gets to stay up late on special occasions. A ball game, a hockey game, xmas eve, etc. I dont see why a concert would be any different)
Also, who cares that this thread is still going. For the most part, its decent discussion, its not a total flame war. Nothing wrong with discussing opposing viewpoints.
I dont understand how someone else's 3 year old would ruin anyone elses enjoyment of a concert...
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
It would ruin my enjoyment of a concert in many possible ways:
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.
Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
Wow, that is so interesting. I find the majority of how adults act at shows (even PJ shows) 1,000 times more distracting/annoying than the presence of a child. Shoving, yelling out at quiet moments, dancing and hitting people and not caring... that annoys me. A kid who's either quiet or having a good time... I guess I just don't get why that would have a negative impact at all. And just to be clear, you're assuming the kid is NOT ok, the squirming/crying parts are a kid who clearly is not ok with being that. That would not be my kids, never has been, so I get that that is the biggest difference. I just don't understand that, but to each their own.
Meanwhile though, just like someone asking on this site that people not yell out requests, or begging people to rock out more/rock out less, you can request anything you like of other fans... but as long as we each buy a ticket and don't break the law, we get to make our own choices about who we bring and how we enjoy a show. So yup, I WILL still be bringing my kids to shows, and I hope all the parents here who have kids who enjoy shows and know how to protect their ears/take care of their needs keep bringing them out, despite what 22 pages of naysayers say.
I dont understand how someone else's 3 year old would ruin anyone elses enjoyment of a concert...
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
It would ruin my enjoyment of a concert in many possible ways:
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.
Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
Would you feel the same way at a baseball game? I generally hear more swearing there. Also, more drinking. And more ass-grabbery. Granted, most people dont dance with mary jane at a ball game. But still. And that same kid is staying up past 10pm. (I think this is the worst part of the argument, to be honest. My kid gets to stay up late on special occasions. A ball game, a hockey game, xmas eve, etc. I dont see why a concert would be any different)
I'm Canadian, so hockey game, but yes, in some ways I feel the same way at hockey games, and I would way prefer to not have little kids next to me at one. However, hockey games are designed to be family friendly, there are way more children there (probably because they are appropriate for children, whereas rock concerts are not), way more ways for the kid to entertain themselves, way more opportunity for the kids to get up and move around (intermissions), etc. It's not the same, and I'm not sure why people keep comparing sports events to rock concerts, quite frankly. The way you enjoy a hockey game and the way you enjoy a concert aren't in any way similar. The only thing they really have in common is that they happen to be at the same venue. And yeah, there are not anywhere near as many drunk people at a hockey game, and there is no way anyone would smoke weed at one (they'd get kicked out immediately). As for the bedtime.... Special occasion late bedtimes are just fine for older kids, like 7 or 8 years old. I don't think they are appropriate for 3 year olds at all. 3 year olds should be in bed on time no matter what IMO, and child specialists would agree with me.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I dont understand how someone else's 3 year old would ruin anyone elses enjoyment of a concert...
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
It would ruin my enjoyment of a concert in many possible ways:
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.
Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
Wow, that is so interesting. I find the majority of how adults act at shows (even PJ shows) 1,000 times more distracting/annoying than the presence of a child. Shoving, yelling out at quiet moments, dancing and hitting people and not caring... that annoys me. A kid who's either quiet or having a good time... I guess I just don't get why that would have a negative impact at all. And just to be clear, you're assuming the kid is NOT ok, the squirming/crying parts are a kid who clearly is not ok with being that. That would not be my kids, never has been, so I get that that is the biggest difference. I just don't understand that, but to each their own.
Meanwhile though, just like someone asking on this site that people not yell out requests, or begging people to rock out more/rock out less, you can request anything you like of other fans... but as long as we each buy a ticket and don't break the law, we get to make our own choices about who we bring and how we enjoy a show. So yup, I WILL still be bringing my kids to shows, and I hope all the parents here who have kids who enjoy shows and know how to protect their ears/take care of their needs keep bringing them out, despite what 22 pages of naysayers say.
I don't feel distracted by the other adults, because I'm not concerned for the other adults. I'm not easily irritated by adults acting like adults (however stupid). But with young children, there is a safety and security factor, and I actually give a shit what they're being exposed to, what's going on with them, etc. I feel concerned for little kids in an adult environment. I don't feel concerned for adults in an adult environment generally, unless something is going very badly wrong.... Also, I don't have to watch my language around adults, and what if I want to smoke a joint???? I would feel really weird about that with a little kid there! But it's a rock concert... I should be able to light a doob if I want to without feeling all fucking guilty and weird about it. Also, your kid may be the perfect little angel (I doubt it, but okay), but a lot of kids aren't. They can be annoying and there is nothing anyone can do about it (I can tell off an adult if they're being a dick... I can't very well tell a 3 year old to stop acting like an asshole). They freak out. They are restless, they even have tantrums or start crying sometimes. Not because there is something wrong with them, but because they are 3 years old and maybe cranky, or reacting to a lot of flashing lights, or scary yelling, dancing grown ups acting crazy. Small children can be very emotional and can get upset for all kinds of random reasons (or just plain bored). I don't even want that near me as a possibility when I'm at a concert.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Well, with you being from vancouver, I would understand why you would not want to bring a 3 year old to a hockey game. it might turn into this...
See, in chicago, it happens a bit differently...
I actually don't have issues with kids going to hockey games .... I do have issues with kids going to riots though. :? (brutal man.... that's a sore spot for us Vancouverites - that was a very upsetting time for us :( .... plus, it's easy to have a good time when you actually win :P )
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I dont understand how someone else's 3 year old would ruin anyone elses enjoyment of a concert...
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
It would ruin my enjoyment of a concert in many possible ways:
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.
Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
I actually agree with all of this. This has happened to me a few times, where I've been at shows and there is a small female in the pit (usually at a festival). I find myself very distracted, worrying about her. I have even saved a few myself. However, this is more my problem than theirs, is it not?
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I dont understand how someone else's 3 year old would ruin anyone elses enjoyment of a concert...
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
It would ruin my enjoyment of a concert in many possible ways:
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.
Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
I actually agree with all of this. This has happened to me a few times, where I've been at shows and there is a small female in the pit (usually at a festival). I find myself very distracted, worrying about her. I have even saved a few myself. However, this is more my problem than theirs, is it not?
Well, I know that I wouldn't bring my kid along to any party or event that is only being attended by adults who want to party, because it would be an inconsiderate thing to do - I would know that no one would want my kid there at all, even if I love it. I feel like the people who bring their tiny kids to rock concerts are the same people who bring them to New Years Eve parties.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I dont understand how someone else's 3 year old would ruin anyone elses enjoyment of a concert...
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
It would ruin my enjoyment of a concert in many possible ways:
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.
Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
I actually agree with all of this. This has happened to me a few times, where I've been at shows and there is a small female in the pit (usually at a festival). I find myself very distracted, worrying about her. I have even saved a few myself. However, this is more my problem than theirs, is it not?
I totally agree, it is your problem (and PJ Soul's re: kids), but I guess a difference is that a small female, as long as it's a small adult female, made a choice about being there. It may be an unwise choice to be in the pit, but it's still her choice. Maybe she's a badass and can hold her own just fine and you don't need to worry about her, but in the end she made an adult decision and it's kind of pointless for you to spend the show worrying if she'll be ok (especially if after a few songs she clearly is ok).
I can see how PJ Soul and others would see a difference because a kid didn't really make a choice, their parent(s) did. And I understand that, especially given the fact that I work for CPS and spend all day dealing with really really awful parent choices that affect kids. What I take exception with in this thread with 23 pages of "You suck as a parent" is the idea that, all by itself, on it's face, taking a 3 yr old to a show with ear protection is inherently dangerous, awful, twisted, horrible. You think it's inappropriate, fine, as has been said already 205 times: you just will never take your own kids. But expecting other parents to be dissauded by pages of general "Oooh, people are drinking and high and it's a horrible thing to expose a child to" but not being able to articulate what is automatically so actually awful about it is just bullshit overall, because to a 3 yr old 95% of the thousands of people in the venue will look like people jumping up and down, screaming, maybe falling, but overall having a good time. And some 3 yr olds actually enjoy the live music and enjoy being there. You have every right to say you disapprove and think it's an awful choice, but don't be surprised that a bunch of general comments and your own worries about cursing (my kids have heard it) and smoking weed (we would just move away, have done it a few times) will traumatize the kid and stunt their development (the level of vitriol has risen to that level in several posts). There's no evidence that that is true, and as long as you're clear about owning your own issues with it, it's all good.
I'm pretty sure I have not even suggested that you suck as a parent, and have never said anything about the kids being in grave danger, them being traumatized, or anything else you're talking about (other might have, but I haven't). I did say something about not making sure kids that young get to bed EVERY night on time can cause issues, and that's it (and I stand by it - special late bedtimes are not for kids THAT young). I just think bringing a young kid to a show is a bad decision for a bunch of reasons having to do with both the kid and others at the show, and the practice bothers me somewhat. That doesn't make someone the worst parent ever.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
As someone who has worked as a Supervisor for child protective services for years... And also as the previous poster who took her 1st kid to Coachella at 18 months, I know a lot about child welfare and about taking kids to shows. Please do tell me, what in the world is it about taking a 3 year old to 3 or 4 shows a year that actually amounts to a call to CPS? As long as the child is ok, it's not a regular occurrence, the child has ear protection, and the parents are watching their child, keeping them safe and getting them anything they need, what about this scenario amounts to child abuse or neglect in your opinion?
Seriously, for all you "Your a horrible parent!" posters, if you really think this is so bad, look up your local child welfare agency. Find a non-emergency number and call them. Tell them you have a general question about whether taking a 3 yr old to a rock concert with ear protection is considered abuse or neglect. Report back with what they say, and for anyone who says they said yes, say what city/town/county you called. I've worked for CPS in 3 states and without some other disturbing details (Dad was smoking weed, mom let the kid wander off, the kid was crying and screaming and the parents ignored them, etc) there would be nothing about this that we would screen in (send to the Investigations unit).
So what exactly do you think fits the definition of abuse and neglect?
As a psychologist with years of experience as a mandated reporter I know first hand how idiotic some operators at CPS can be an have often questioned their training over the years. I could list pages of examples of this. Just because you worked for CPS doesn't mean you're right. As someone with expertise in child development I have to hope someone working in an entry level position can make the appropriate affirmation to investigate the concern.
You're taking your 18 month old to rock concerts? Awesome. Good to know we have such highly qualified people working for CPS.
FINALLY we have another professional to weigh in: an experienced psychologist with years of mandated reporter experience! Let's just cut through your petty insults and get to the point: as an experienced mandated reporter, what about the scenario originally presented, if called in to the hotline (3yr old at PJ show, with ear protection, and no other obvious negative factors like parental drug use or leaving the kid alone in the seats) meets the threshold definition for either abuse or neglect? On what basis would you screen it in, and what would your actual "highly qualified entry level person" put down in writing as the "appropriate affirmation to investigate the concern"? And last, just to make sure you're not making anything up, what jurisdiction's child welfare code are you using as your standard?
8 pages later... it's worth noting (but no surprising) that neither Psychologist/Mandated Reporter/Experienced Child Development Guy in the above post nor anyone else in this thread has actually made any reasonable case for this truly being a child abuse or negect issue. I truly do understand why so many people think it's a bad idea. But saying it should be reported to CPS is a very serious thing to say, and an irresponsible one since there is no basis (at least under the scenario that the original poster presented) for a CPS report on this being taken seriously.ud
Object as much as you want, wag fingers and call names (which is what most of these 23 pages has). Go for it. But do not cite your credentials and then try to say with a straight face that a qualified CPS reporter would screen this in, when you know you can't cite one single jurisdiction where, as described here, it would reasonably be investigated. To you it paints a picture of a horrible parenting choice: fair enough, that's your opinion. But CPS only investigates actual child abuse and neglect, not every random person's discomfort with a choice that no one here can make a credible argument about how exactly a Pearl Jam show with ear protection is in and of itself actually dangerous or harmful.
As a psychologist with years of experience as a mandated reporter I know first hand how idiotic some operators at CPS can be an have often questioned their training over the years. I could list pages of examples of this. Just because you worked for CPS doesn't mean you're right. As someone with expertise in child development I have to hope someone working in an entry level position can make the appropriate affirmation to investigate the concern.
You're taking your 18 month old to rock concerts? Awesome. Good to know we have such highly qualified people working for CPS.
FINALLY we have another professional to weigh in: an experienced psychologist with years of mandated reporter experience! Let's just cut through your petty insults and get to the point: as an experienced mandated reporter, what about the scenario originally presented, if called in to the hotline (3yr old at PJ show, with ear protection, and no other obvious negative factors like parental drug use or leaving the kid alone in the seats) meets the threshold definition for either abuse or neglect? On what basis would you screen it in, and what would your actual "highly qualified entry level person" put down in writing as the "appropriate affirmation to investigate the concern"? And last, just to make sure you're not making anything up, what jurisdiction's child welfare code are you using as your standard?
8 pages later... it's worth noting (but no surprising) that neither Psychologist/Mandated Reporter/Experienced Child Development Guy in the above post nor anyone else in this thread has actually made any reasonable case for this truly being a child abuse or negect issue. I truly do understand why so many people think it's a bad idea. But saying it should be reported to CPS is a very serious thing to say, and an irresponsible one since there is no basis (at least under the scenario that the original poster presented) for a CPS report on this being taken seriously.ud
Object as much as you want, wag fingers and call names (which is what most of these 23 pages has). Go for it. But do not cite your credentials and then try to say with a straight face that a qualified CPS reporter would screen this in, when you know you can't cite one single jurisdiction where, as described here, it would reasonably be investigated. To you it paints a picture of a horrible parenting choice: fair enough, that's your opinion. But CPS only investigates actual child abuse and neglect, not every random person's discomfort with a choice that no one here can make a credible argument about how exactly a Pearl Jam show with ear protection is in and of itself actually dangerous or harmful.
Yeah, I agree that suggesting it should be reported to CPU is ludicrous. I have a feeling anyone who said that was just feeling emotional or passionate about the subject, and didn't really mean it.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I actually agree with all of this. This has happened to me a few times, where I've been at shows and there is a small female in the pit (usually at a festival). I find myself very distracted, worrying about her. I have even saved a few myself. However, this is more my problem than theirs, is it not?
I totally agree, it is your problem (and PJ Soul's re: kids), but I guess a difference is that a small female, as long as it's a small adult female, made a choice about being there. It may be an unwise choice to be in the pit, but it's still her choice. Maybe she's a badass and can hold her own just fine and you don't need to worry about her, but in the end she made an adult decision and it's kind of pointless for you to spend the show worrying if she'll be ok (especially if after a few songs she clearly is ok).
I can see how PJ Soul and others would see a difference because a kid didn't really make a choice, their parent(s) did. And I understand that, especially given the fact that I work for CPS and spend all day dealing with really really awful parent choices that affect kids. What I take exception with in this thread with 23 pages of "You suck as a parent" is the idea that, all by itself, on it's face, taking a 3 yr old to a show with ear protection is inherently dangerous, awful, twisted, horrible. You think it's inappropriate, fine, as has been said already 205 times: you just will never take your own kids. But expecting other parents to be dissauded by pages of general "Oooh, people are drinking and high and it's a horrible thing to expose a child to" but not being able to articulate what is automatically so actually awful about it is just bullshit overall, because to a 3 yr old 95% of the thousands of people in the venue will look like people jumping up and down, screaming, maybe falling, but overall having a good time. And some 3 yr olds actually enjoy the live music and enjoy being there. You have every right to say you disapprove and think it's an awful choice, but don't be surprised that a bunch of general comments and your own worries about cursing (my kids have heard it) and smoking weed (we would just move away, have done it a few times) will traumatize the kid and stunt their development (the level of vitriol has risen to that level in several posts). There's no evidence that that is true, and as long as you're clear about owning your own issues with it, it's all good.
I'm pretty sure I have not even suggested that you suck as a parent, and have never said anything about the kids being in grave danger, them being traumatized, or anything else you're talking about (other might have, but I haven't). I did say something about not making sure kids that young get to bed EVERY night on time can cause issues, and that's it (and I stand by it - special late bedtimes are not for kids THAT young). I just think bringing a young kid to a show is a bad decision for a bunch of reasons having to do with both the kid and others at the show, and the practice bothers me somewhat. That doesn't make someone the worst parent ever.
I say very clearly that I'm referring to all 23 (now 24) pages of this thread, not just your posts. I mention a lot of things that you in particular didn't say... but then again you didn't write all 24 pages of responses so no, I wasn't talking only about you. You can pretty much click on any of teh 24 pages and find someone saying much worse than "you suck as a parent" so there are a LOT of examples of exactly that sentiment.
The OP has a 3 year old and I doubt he's taking the child in the "pit" which these days is more like a bunch of balding middle aged white guys who barely have enough energy to put a fist in the air every once in awhile. Let the kid enjoy the show, with earplugs, in a seat, from a safe distance. However, if the kid starts fussing and crying, you better take him out so he doesn't ruin the show for anyone in the vicinity.
But overall, lets just agree to disagree. Pearl Jam is awesome, that's what matters on this forum.
The OP has a 3 year old and I doubt he's taking the child in the "pit" which these days is more like a bunch of balding middle aged white guys who barely have enough energy to put a fist in the air every once in awhile. Let the kid enjoy the show, with earplugs, in a seat, from a safe distance. However, if the kid starts fussing and crying, you better take him out so he doesn't ruin the show for anyone in the vicinity.
But overall, lets just agree to disagree. Pearl Jam is awesome, that's what matters on this forum.
We're still allowed to debate shit, right? Please? :P
(oh, and watch some of the youtube vid from the 3 shows so far.... the pit looks pretty rocking... for middle aged white guys )
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
(oh, and watch some of the youtube vid from the 3 shows so far.... the pit looks pretty rocking... for middle aged white guys )
Good idea. If you can recommend any, let me know... but I'll go dig around and see what I can find. I can't wait for my shows on the west... Oakland, Portland, Spokane, and Seattle!!
I actually agree with all of this. This has happened to me a few times, where I've been at shows and there is a small female in the pit (usually at a festival). I find myself very distracted, worrying about her. I have even saved a few myself. However, this is more my problem than theirs, is it not?
On the way to pick up my kids just now I thought of your quote and smiled... I just remembered my 1st PJ show ever, '93, when we got in I left my friends in the back where they wanted to be and went up front: front row, center, literally within arms reach of Ed's feet. In the back, the guys behind my sister were scanning the front and commenting on the front row. Then they said "Check out the little chick in the blue jacket! No way she'll last more than one song!" My sister and friends turned around and said "Dude, you have no idea... She'll be fine and outlast everyone!" I survived so much moshing and so many crowd surges.. And had a blast! So probably at your shows there were a few females who needed help... And a few more who we're just fine!
These days you'd have to pay me to be in the pit. I'll take great side view seats close to the stage any day, when I can get them. But those early shows in the thick of it were awesome too!
I don't buy the "don't bring your kids around drugs and alcohol" bit. I don't do that in front of my kids, but the Winnipeg Folk Festival is one of the biggest of its kind. Hippies. As far as the eye can see. Weed and beer is everywhere. And it's a major family outing. Everyone is happy, not fighting douchebags.
it's not just the substances present, it's the company. and yes, there are plenty of douchebags at rock shows. sober and otherwise.
but again, I don't get all the incredible judgment so many people have displayed in this thread. it's mind boggling. calling the guy extreme names like "fucking idiot". Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean it's wrong for EVERY kid and his dad. Just because the kid is too young to remember it later is no reason not to do something the kid enjoys. If that were the case people would be leaving their kids in front of the tv until they were 10. But we don't; we go out and do things they like to do. If his kid actually likes going to a rock show, and is well protected, who the fuck are you people to say it's wrong?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I don't buy the "don't bring your kids around drugs and alcohol" bit. I don't do that in front of my kids, but the Winnipeg Folk Festival is one of the biggest of its kind. Hippies. As far as the eye can see. Weed and beer is everywhere. And it's a major family outing. Everyone is happy, not fighting douchebags.
it's not just the substances present, it's the company. and yes, there are plenty of douchebags at rock shows. sober and otherwise.
but again, I don't get all the incredible judgment so many people have displayed in this thread. it's mind boggling. calling the guy extreme names like "fucking idiot". Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean it's wrong for EVERY kid and his dad. Just because the kid is too young to remember it later is no reason not to do something the kid enjoys. If that were the case people would be leaving their kids in front of the tv until they were 10. But we don't; we go out and do things they like to do. If his kid actually likes going to a rock show, and is well protected, who the fuck are you people to say it's wrong?
You are completely on point. And you're so right - what is up with the people saying you shouldn't do it because the kid won't remember it later?? If they won't remember a PJ show, they won't remember those live Barney shows or the Wiggles either. That's a reason not to take them???
I am sad for the kids of the parent that holds "Will they remember this when they grow up?" as a criteria for whether to take them to do something fun. That's gonna be a loooong infancy-through-6 or 8ish sitting home, watching paint dry until you're allowed to have fun because "now, you'll remember it!" :shock:
.. I just remembered my 1st PJ show ever, '93, when we got in I left my friends in the back where they wanted to be and went up front: front row, center, literally within arms reach of Ed's feet. In the back, the guys behind my sister were scanning the front and commenting on the front row. Then they said "Check out the little chick in the blue jacket! No way she'll last more than one song!" My sister and friends turned around and said "Dude, you have no idea... She'll be fine and outlast everyone!" I survived so much moshing and so many crowd surges.. And had a blast! So probably at your shows there were a few females who needed help... And a few more who we're just fine!
Even if I am not of the same opinion with you, I enjoyed reading your posts and appreciated how you laid out your case and responded patiently to each and every counter-opinion, in a respectful and positive way. So
Part of me wants you to be right as I find myself wanting to share PJ love with my new-born daughter as early as possible. The other part of me is worried not because a rock concert is a horrible place for a kid, but mostly because of what cosmo said. The kids might have a tendency to reject their parents' habits and likings when they come to a certain age; which might be one of the first phases of forming own identity in the world.
What's your part, who you are?
2012: Arras, Berlin 1-2
2013: Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires
2014: Milano, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin
2016: NY MSG 1
I don't buy the "don't bring your kids around drugs and alcohol" bit. I don't do that in front of my kids, but the Winnipeg Folk Festival is one of the biggest of its kind. Hippies. As far as the eye can see. Weed and beer is everywhere. And it's a major family outing. Everyone is happy, not fighting douchebags.
it's not just the substances present, it's the company. and yes, there are plenty of douchebags at rock shows. sober and otherwise.
but again, I don't get all the incredible judgment so many people have displayed in this thread. it's mind boggling. calling the guy extreme names like "fucking idiot". Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean it's wrong for EVERY kid and his dad. Just because the kid is too young to remember it later is no reason not to do something the kid enjoys. If that were the case people would be leaving their kids in front of the tv until they were 10. But we don't; we go out and do things they like to do. If his kid actually likes going to a rock show, and is well protected, who the fuck are you people to say it's wrong?
You are completely on point. And you're so right - what is up with the people saying you shouldn't do it because the kid won't remember it later?? If they won't remember a PJ show, they won't remember those live Barney shows or the Wiggles either. That's a reason not to take them???
I am sad for the kids of the parent that holds "Will they remember this when they grow up?" as a criteria for whether to take them to do something fun. That's gonna be a loooong infancy-through-6 or 8ish sitting home, watching paint dry until you're allowed to have fun because "now, you'll remember it!" :shock:
As a parent of two beautiful kids, I want to experience as much as I can with them and age doesn't matter. My son is 4 and my daughter will be 1 on the 25th (Happy Early Birthday Etta!) and I am not going to sit around and wait to do things with my kids so they can fully remember it or it's "age appropriate" be it a sporting event or otherwise. I might not be here in 10 years, so why wait? Not trying to think negatively in that I won't be here, but nothing is ever guaranteed in life. The joy I see on my kids face when we do something he/she wants to do is pricelss! I guess I have a different perspective on kids and my relationship with them than a lot of other poeple on this board and that's ok in my book. I get that people will disagree with this and that's just fine, I only wish people could find a more construcitve waying of expressing their opinion. The OP came on here asking for advice and most people took that as an opportunity to bash and insult him without fear of consequence. He asked for advice, not to be called a fucking idiot. And to those that feel there was a hidden agenda or he was just doing to stir the pot, I call bull shit. People use that as an excuse for their inappropriate behavior and is a weak excuse. Why people feel the need to bash someone or insult them because they don't subscribe to their point of view is unfortunate. Can't we have a healthy discussion on the subject and agree to disagree without getting into name calling and insulting someone when they just wanted some advice?
Comments
Unless they were talking all the time or urinating all over the place....which 9 times out of 10 this is happens with non-3 year olds.
Nuclear fission
- Chances are pretty good that the kid would be squirming and talking and possibly whining, maybe sleeping(!)... That would annoy me and be a bit of a bummer in some cases (i.e. a sleeping child next to me... not exactly conducive to rocking out!!!). Not everyone thinks a restless toddler in an age-inappropriate venue is cute, FYI.
- I would feel distracted by their presence to the point that it would ruin my own experience. I.e. when people are swearing I'd be thinking about the kid (and I'd also feel like I had to watch my own mouth - I swear like a sailor), if people lit up a joint I'd be concerned about the kid, when it was really loud I'd be focused on the kid, when the kid was clearly totally fucking exhausted because it's 10:00 at night I'd be thinking about the kid... A three year old is a major distraction IMO. I don't want my thoughts to be on the well-being of a 3 year old, but I wouldn't be able to help it.
Leave the toddlers at home and let the grown-ups have a night where they don't have to be thinking about what's going on with a toddler next to them.
Some people could, but some are too dug into their firm perspective to even be open to considering this post. I think it's excellent, and I understand that this poster would make a different choice than I did. But at least it's stated reasonably and she explains how she got to her perspective.
Well said. With young children of my own, these would be my thoughts exactly.
Why wouldn't you be able to have a good time? How exactly would that 3 yr old's presence impact you?
Edited to add: Never mind, Is see you already answered this.
Would you feel the same way at a baseball game? I generally hear more swearing there. Also, more drinking. And more ass-grabbery. Granted, most people dont dance with mary jane at a ball game.
Nuclear fission
Nuclear fission
Wow, that is so interesting. I find the majority of how adults act at shows (even PJ shows) 1,000 times more distracting/annoying than the presence of a child. Shoving, yelling out at quiet moments, dancing and hitting people and not caring... that annoys me. A kid who's either quiet or having a good time... I guess I just don't get why that would have a negative impact at all. And just to be clear, you're assuming the kid is NOT ok, the squirming/crying parts are a kid who clearly is not ok with being that. That would not be my kids, never has been, so I get that that is the biggest difference. I just don't understand that, but to each their own.
Meanwhile though, just like someone asking on this site that people not yell out requests, or begging people to rock out more/rock out less, you can request anything you like of other fans... but as long as we each buy a ticket and don't break the law, we get to make our own choices about who we bring and how we enjoy a show. So yup, I WILL still be bringing my kids to shows, and I hope all the parents here who have kids who enjoy shows and know how to protect their ears/take care of their needs keep bringing them out, despite what 22 pages of naysayers say.
See, in chicago, it happens a bit differently...
Nuclear fission
I actually agree with all of this. This has happened to me a few times, where I've been at shows and there is a small female in the pit (usually at a festival). I find myself very distracted, worrying about her. I have even saved a few myself. However, this is more my problem than theirs, is it not?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I totally agree, it is your problem (and PJ Soul's re: kids), but I guess a difference is that a small female, as long as it's a small adult female, made a choice about being there. It may be an unwise choice to be in the pit, but it's still her choice. Maybe she's a badass and can hold her own just fine and you don't need to worry about her, but in the end she made an adult decision and it's kind of pointless for you to spend the show worrying if she'll be ok (especially if after a few songs she clearly is ok).
I can see how PJ Soul and others would see a difference because a kid didn't really make a choice, their parent(s) did. And I understand that, especially given the fact that I work for CPS and spend all day dealing with really really awful parent choices that affect kids. What I take exception with in this thread with 23 pages of "You suck as a parent" is the idea that, all by itself, on it's face, taking a 3 yr old to a show with ear protection is inherently dangerous, awful, twisted, horrible. You think it's inappropriate, fine, as has been said already 205 times: you just will never take your own kids. But expecting other parents to be dissauded by pages of general "Oooh, people are drinking and high and it's a horrible thing to expose a child to" but not being able to articulate what is automatically so actually awful about it is just bullshit overall, because to a 3 yr old 95% of the thousands of people in the venue will look like people jumping up and down, screaming, maybe falling, but overall having a good time. And some 3 yr olds actually enjoy the live music and enjoy being there. You have every right to say you disapprove and think it's an awful choice, but don't be surprised that a bunch of general comments and your own worries about cursing (my kids have heard it) and smoking weed (we would just move away, have done it a few times) will traumatize the kid and stunt their development (the level of vitriol has risen to that level in several posts). There's no evidence that that is true, and as long as you're clear about owning your own issues with it, it's all good.
8 pages later... it's worth noting (but no surprising) that neither Psychologist/Mandated Reporter/Experienced Child Development Guy in the above post nor anyone else in this thread has actually made any reasonable case for this truly being a child abuse or negect issue. I truly do understand why so many people think it's a bad idea. But saying it should be reported to CPS is a very serious thing to say, and an irresponsible one since there is no basis (at least under the scenario that the original poster presented) for a CPS report on this being taken seriously.ud
Object as much as you want, wag fingers and call names (which is what most of these 23 pages has). Go for it. But do not cite your credentials and then try to say with a straight face that a qualified CPS reporter would screen this in, when you know you can't cite one single jurisdiction where, as described here, it would reasonably be investigated. To you it paints a picture of a horrible parenting choice: fair enough, that's your opinion. But CPS only investigates actual child abuse and neglect, not every random person's discomfort with a choice that no one here can make a credible argument about how exactly a Pearl Jam show with ear protection is in and of itself actually dangerous or harmful.
I say very clearly that I'm referring to all 23 (now 24) pages of this thread, not just your posts. I mention a lot of things that you in particular didn't say... but then again you didn't write all 24 pages of responses so no, I wasn't talking only about you. You can pretty much click on any of teh 24 pages and find someone saying much worse than "you suck as a parent" so there are a LOT of examples of exactly that sentiment.
But overall, lets just agree to disagree. Pearl Jam is awesome, that's what matters on this forum.
(oh, and watch some of the youtube vid from the 3 shows so far.... the pit looks pretty rocking... for middle aged white guys
Good idea. If you can recommend any, let me know... but I'll go dig around and see what I can find. I can't wait for my shows on the west... Oakland, Portland, Spokane, and Seattle!!
On the way to pick up my kids just now I thought of your quote and smiled... I just remembered my 1st PJ show ever, '93, when we got in I left my friends in the back where they wanted to be and went up front: front row, center, literally within arms reach of Ed's feet. In the back, the guys behind my sister were scanning the front and commenting on the front row. Then they said "Check out the little chick in the blue jacket! No way she'll last more than one song!" My sister and friends turned around and said "Dude, you have no idea... She'll be fine and outlast everyone!" I survived so much moshing and so many crowd surges.. And had a blast! So probably at your shows there were a few females who needed help... And a few more who we're just fine!
These days you'd have to pay me to be in the pit. I'll take great side view seats close to the stage any day, when I can get them. But those early shows in the thick of it were awesome too!
Nuclear fission
it's not just the substances present, it's the company. and yes, there are plenty of douchebags at rock shows. sober and otherwise.
but again, I don't get all the incredible judgment so many people have displayed in this thread. it's mind boggling. calling the guy extreme names like "fucking idiot". Just because you wouldn't do it doesn't mean it's wrong for EVERY kid and his dad. Just because the kid is too young to remember it later is no reason not to do something the kid enjoys. If that were the case people would be leaving their kids in front of the tv until they were 10. But we don't; we go out and do things they like to do. If his kid actually likes going to a rock show, and is well protected, who the fuck are you people to say it's wrong?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
You are completely on point. And you're so right - what is up with the people saying you shouldn't do it because the kid won't remember it later?? If they won't remember a PJ show, they won't remember those live Barney shows or the Wiggles either. That's a reason not to take them???
I am sad for the kids of the parent that holds "Will they remember this when they grow up?" as a criteria for whether to take them to do something fun. That's gonna be a loooong infancy-through-6 or 8ish sitting home, watching paint dry until you're allowed to have fun because "now, you'll remember it!" :shock:
Even if I am not of the same opinion with you, I enjoyed reading your posts and appreciated how you laid out your case and responded patiently to each and every counter-opinion, in a respectful and positive way. So
Part of me wants you to be right as I find myself wanting to share PJ love with my new-born daughter as early as possible. The other part of me is worried not because a rock concert is a horrible place for a kid, but mostly because of what cosmo said. The kids might have a tendency to reject their parents' habits and likings when they come to a certain age; which might be one of the first phases of forming own identity in the world.
2012: Arras, Berlin 1-2
2013: Sao Paulo, Buenos Aires
2014: Milano, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin
2016: NY MSG 1
As a parent of two beautiful kids, I want to experience as much as I can with them and age doesn't matter. My son is 4 and my daughter will be 1 on the 25th (Happy Early Birthday Etta!) and I am not going to sit around and wait to do things with my kids so they can fully remember it or it's "age appropriate" be it a sporting event or otherwise. I might not be here in 10 years, so why wait? Not trying to think negatively in that I won't be here, but nothing is ever guaranteed in life. The joy I see on my kids face when we do something he/she wants to do is pricelss! I guess I have a different perspective on kids and my relationship with them than a lot of other poeple on this board and that's ok in my book. I get that people will disagree with this and that's just fine, I only wish people could find a more construcitve waying of expressing their opinion. The OP came on here asking for advice and most people took that as an opportunity to bash and insult him without fear of consequence. He asked for advice, not to be called a fucking idiot. And to those that feel there was a hidden agenda or he was just doing to stir the pot, I call bull shit. People use that as an excuse for their inappropriate behavior and is a weak excuse. Why people feel the need to bash someone or insult them because they don't subscribe to their point of view is unfortunate. Can't we have a healthy discussion on the subject and agree to disagree without getting into name calling and insulting someone when they just wanted some advice?