confederate flag: offensive or historical?

Byrnzie

pandora wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

pandora wrote:

So it seems it is a fail agan for you if indeed you were attempting not to be offensive
to me and others who have known good people who walk proudly with that flag.

Which flag? The Confederate flag, or the Waffen S.S?

The one on topic

My point is; is their any limit at which you would refrain from standing 'by those who honor others today...and not judge them for the flag they love'? Or would you extend the same courtesy to Nazis and Klansmen?

Jeanwah

Jeanwah wrote:

Quick question, Pandora what do you think the Civil War was about?

And I would like to hear a fact-based reply, please.

gimmesometruth27

why do hate groups like skinheads and the national socialist movement fly the confederate battle flag, or a flag that incorporates that flag into it?

if that flag does not represent those things, why do people who fly that flag allow those groups to fly it?

JonnyPistachio

I think the majority of people in the US associate the confederate flag with something negative. And I agree, some folks do this (such as people Pandora has met) who want to show their heritage and respect their fallen family members from 150 years ago. Yes, that's 150+ years ago.. This is a very, very minute percentage. And those folks who chose to fly this flag, do so knowing that they may be tossed in a group of folks who are considered supporters of slavery. Personally, if I was feeling the urge to respect my fallen, great, great, great, great grandfather, I think i could find another way than risk being lumped in with racists and good ol boys.

Every single person i've ever met who proudly displayed a confederate flag had a real problem with black people. Simple as that/ But that's just my experiences.

gimmesometruth27

i don't know why anyone would fly a flag for an army or nation that got destroyed in a war in the first place. why fly a nazi flag? why fly the confederate flag? why, after the american revolution, would any americans fly the union jack? unless you are making some kind of statement.

to me it seems like a bunch of cubs fans who still wear the jerseys with pride given their futility over the years.

Byrnzie

Godfather. wrote:

man really ? why do you even ask and compare these two events ? this line of defense and answering questions with questions sounds like you have run out of ammo ...so to speak.


Godfather.

This is the crux of her argument: 'I will always stand by those who honor others today and try to understand how they all feel,'

I'm simply putting her theory to the test so as to see how it stands up from a wider perspective. Personally, I think it holds no water, and crumbles at the slightest scrutiny.

riotgrl

Did anyone listen to this piece on NPR a few weeks ago about the collaborative song between Brad Paisley and LL Cool J? http://www.npr.org/2013/04/09/176681636/accidental-racist-the-controversy-and-the-conversation

An interesting aside to the song which is about Paisley, in real life, getting judged for wearing a shirt with the Confederate flag on it. The song sucks but this discussion about the underlying problem with the flag itself was really interesting. It was argued that the underlying problem with this entire issue about the flag is our inability, or unwillingness, to discuss the racial tensions that still exist in this country today. Perhaps that's much of our problem within this thread is that what we are really arguing has to do with our view of people as racist or not.

pandora

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

why do hate groups like skinheads and the national socialist movement fly the confederate battle flag, or a flag that incorporates that flag into it?

if that flag does not represent those things, why do people who fly that flag allow those groups to fly it?

There is no denying some people use it to show there prejudice and hate...
but to say that is what everyone is doing is so far off base.
And allow? :?

pandora

Byrnzie wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

man really ? why do you even ask and compare these two events ? this line of defense and answering questions with questions sounds like you have run out of ammo ...so to speak.


Godfather.

This is the crux of her argument: 'I will always stand by those who honor others today and try to understand how they all feel,'

I'm simply putting her theory to the test so as to see how it stands up from a wider perspective. Personally, I think it holds no water, and crumbles at the slightest scrutiny.

My personal experience being here in Georgia for 22 years now has enlightened
both my heart and mind to what we are discussing. As far as your other examples to try
to crumble my theory :? why bother?...
I haven't had any life lessons with Nazi's or the KKK ...
go figure

I have had experiences with many who fly the flag for noble honorable reasons that some
may be too judgmental to recognize. It's important to keep your heart open to other's hearts
and not just assume their motives are negative.

Those who are involved in Civil War reenactments or are history buffs or have ancestors
who bravely fought and gave their lives are not motivated by hate quite the opposite.

Byrnzie

pandora wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

man really ? why do you even ask and compare these two events ? this line of defense and answering questions with questions sounds like you have run out of ammo ...so to speak.


Godfather.

This is the crux of her argument: 'I will always stand by those who honor others today and try to understand how they all feel,'

I'm simply putting her theory to the test so as to see how it stands up from a wider perspective. Personally, I think it holds no water, and crumbles at the slightest scrutiny.

My personal experience being here in Georgia for 22 years now has enlightened
both my heart and mind to what we are discussing. As far as your other examples to try
to crumble my theory :? why bother?...
I haven't had any life lessons with Nazi's or the KKK ...
go figure

I have had experiences with many who fly the flag for noble honorable reasons that some
may be too judgmental to recognize. It's important to keep your heart open to other's hearts
and not just assume their motives are negative.

Those who are involved in Civil War reenactments or are history buffs or have ancestors
who bravely fought and gave their lives are not motivated by hate quite the opposite.

A civil war reenactment isn't quite the same thing as someone wearing a t-shirt with it on, or as a bunch of goons driving around with the flag on their car. The flag represents racism and slavery. And though not every Confederate soldier fought for those reasons, the remembering and/or honouring of those soldiers doesn't require any flying of that flag.

pandora

Byrnzie wrote:

A civil war reenactment isn't quite the same thing as someone wearing a t-shirt with it on, or as a bunch of goons driving around with the flag on their car. The flag represents racism and slavery. And though not every Confederate soldier fought for those reasons, the remembering and/or honouring of those soldiers doesn't require any flying of that flag.

The people I know wear, display, march with the flag in reenactments proudly
not based in hate or any prejudice.
But you will assume what you will because you know best about people, I guess.

mikepegg44

It is a symbol.

Symbols meanings change over time. The swastika didn't always come with Nazis. This one changed when it became synonymous with White supremacy after the civil war. This flag may have represented the south in a war, and some may still choose to look at it historically, but the symbol for many more is that it represents a feeling of superiority in one race.


The more I have thought about this, the more I realize that symbols are only given power when we choose to give it to them.

mcgruff10

JTH wrote:

mcgruff10 wrote:

A kid in my last period class asked what I thought about the kid being suspended.....

So where, exactly, did this suspension take place? Because I can't find any credible news source that makes mention of it.

We saw it on cnn student news the other day. It was somehwere in missouri. But here's some others:

http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011 ... ed_ov.html

http://www.abc57.com/home/top-stories/R ... 08393.html

http://www.fox23.com/news/local/story/T ... ehYyA.cspx

http://blogs.citypages.com/blotter/2012 ... ension.php

chadwick

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I think the majority of people in the US associate the confederate flag with something negative. And I agree, some folks do this (such as people Pandora has met) who want to show their heritage and respect their fallen family members from 150 years ago. Yes, that's 150+ years ago.. This is a very, very minute percentage. And those folks who chose to fly this flag, do so knowing that they may be tossed in a group of folks who are considered supporters of slavery. Personally, if I was feeling the urge to respect my fallen, great, great, great, great grandfather, I think i could find another way than risk being lumped in with racists and good ol boys.

Every single person i've ever met who proudly displayed a confederate flag had a real problem with black people. Simple as that/ But that's just my experiences.

fact. every single person who displays a rebel flag is a straight up moron & i would not ever call them my friend. every rebel flag waver i have ever known uses the N-word as common talk & they truly dislike dark colored folks & & & rebel flag wavers are extremely uneducated people as well. these are my experiences

chadwick

rebel flag wavers are generally associated with the aryan brotherhood. maybe not every single stupid shit confederate flag waver is associated with the aryan nation but you can bet your butt 82.7% are involved with the hate group.

Cosmo

Godfather. wrote:

man really ? why do you even ask and compare these two events ? this line of defense and answering questions with questions sounds like you have run out of ammo ...so to speak.

Godfather.

...
Actually, sir... it IS consistant with the ongoing conversation.
Both are symbols that have both historical and societal interpretations. The Waffen SS DID wear this insignia on their uniforms, helmets and they had a seperate banner. That is a historical fact.
Now, on the other hand, it represents a time in human history that highlights man's ability to commit horrific acts against other men, in the name of National Pride, racism, etc... When waved today, at a political rally in the streets of a U.S. city... it takes on a completely different meaning that it did by the men who wore this symbol.
The Confederate Battle flag is no different. It represented the Confederacy during a Civil War in 1864... something with historical context. Waving the Confederate battle flag at a political rally in the streets of a U.S. city.. in 2013... takes on a completely different meaning.
...
As for the ancestors of fallen soldiers... many Germans lost their lives in defense of a way of living they wanted to endure. No one can tell me that to see the grandson of an SS officer killed in Stalingrad wearing a t-shirt with the Waffen SS insignia on it would not interpret that as 'honoring his family'.

MotoDC

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

unsung wrote:

Historical.

Then again there's people that believe the civil war was fought over slavery.

are you one of the people that calls it "the war of northern aggression"?

I totally call it that but only because the looks from my yankee friends entertain me.

gimmesometruth27

MotoDC wrote:

I totally call it that but only because the looks from my yankee friends entertain me.

MotoDC

vant wrote:

If you believe the people who fly the Confederate flag are doing so out of support for or reverence for or respect for the Confederate side in a war that fought for states' rights, then why don't those people fly their state flag instead?

That's a good question. You'd rarely see a Texan flying the confederate flag, for example.

chadwick

quick story

i know a dude w/ a rebel flag hanging on his bedroom wall. he was meeting a lady of darker skin at his home to hook her up with a green sack. she had a problem w/ him at an earlier encounter where he used the N-word & not in a hateful manner but casually & it did not make her to thrilled but she blew it off.

once at his place he's getting her hooked up nicely when she sees the flag hanging there on his wall, without a word she slipped out the front door leaving him scratching his head with her green sack in hand.

the rebel flag is a disgusting symbol just exactly like the SS & Nazi symbols. people who are hated upon do not like these shallow ignorant people nor do they enjoy their flags & other memorabilia