confederate flag: offensive or historical?

Jeanwah

vant0037 wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I understand what you're saying. But it's textbook fact what the war was about. Are they not teaching factual history in the South in schools, to "preserve heritage"?

I'm not denying what the war was about, and I don't think Binaural is either. I'm merely conceding a point - that being the possibility that there were other reasons in addition to slavery that the war was fought about - to prove my ultimate point: that at the very least, the Confederate flag stands for, whether in full or part, slavery.

I'm agreeing with you. (sorry for any miscommunication)

Last-12-Exit

chadwick wrote:

Last-12-Exit wrote:

That being said, is it not a person's right to fly whatever flag he or she wants in this country?

it antagonizes some people into the desire of bashing someone's skull in.

drunken rednecks at the lake enjoying their campsite & waving their rebel flag. a group of inner city thugs are wanting to enjoy the lake.

conflicting interests

I agree with you.

gimmesometruth27

i had a good friend whose ancestors fought and died for the confederacy and he is also related to civil war vets who were in the klan. he has pictures of those that died hung on his walls along with paintings of confederate soldiers. he has a confederate battle flag in his basement as well. my skin crawls being in his house and how he appeared to celebrate the confederacy. we got in fistfights over it before while drunk a few times. he also does not like african americans and said on several occasions that the south should have won the war. i do not hang out with the guy anymore though, for several reasons, but this is one of the big ones.

chadwick

Last-12-Exit wrote:

chadwick wrote:

Last-12-Exit wrote:

That being said, is it not a person's right to fly whatever flag he or she wants in this country?

it antagonizes some people into the desire of bashing someone's skull in.

drunken rednecks at the lake enjoying their campsite & waving their rebel flag. a group of inner city thugs are wanting to enjoy the lake.

conflicting interests

I agree with you.

finally someone on here agrees with me :evil:

chadwick

gimmesometruth27 wrote:

i had a good friend whose ancestors fought and died for the confederacy and he is also related to civil war vets who were in the klan. he has pictures of those that died hung on his walls along with paintings of confederate soldiers. he has a confederate battle flag in his basement as well. my skin crawls being in his house and how he appeared to celebrate the confederacy. we got in fistfights over it before while drunk a few times. he also does not like african americans and said on several occasions that the south should have won the war. i do not hang out with the guy anymore though, for several reasons, but this is one of the big ones.

thank you for sharing this personal story

riotgrl

Last-12-Exit wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

vant0037 wrote:

Your in-laws sound like nice people, but for the same reasons any group might try to cover up, ignore, distance themselves from or explain away an ugly historical fact, Southerners persist in arguing that the Confederacy wasn't at least in part (a large part, most would argue) about preserving the institution of slavery. In some cases (now, for instance), doing so can serve a political purpose. In others, doing so can allow someone to leave their heritage unstained (your nice in-laws, for example). In all cases, doing so obscures the truth.

I understand what you're saying. But it's textbook fact what the war was about. Are they not teaching factual history in the South in schools, to "preserve heritage"?

What textbook are you referring to? I was raised and educated in northwest Indiana and was taught that the civil war was started over money evolved into a slavery issue. My daughter's are being raised and educated about 50 miles away from fort Sumter and they are being taught the same thing in their school.

That being said, is it not a person's right to fly whatever flag he or she wants in this country?

I understand what you are saying and agree that the civil war was,in part, about taxation. However, I think that saying it was entirely a taxation issue that evolved into an issue about slavery leaves out some very important information about the causes of the Civil War. I'm not doubting what you learned but I am confused as to why a teacher would leave out the issue of manifest destiny and American territorial expansion that led to debate after debate and compromise after compromise which had very little to do with taxation and more to do with slavery.

pandora

riotgrl wrote:

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

Defending someones military service is far different than defending their right to a symbol that denotes slavery and secession. If someone wants to exhibit pride in their southern heritage then I fully support that. But if you are aware of the history of the Confederate flag then I do not see how it can be defended as a symbol of southern heritage. It is a symbol of slavery and secession and I cannot defend those notions.

No you can't but many can who lost family. That symbol denotes something much different
than you can comprehend. It does not denote slavery or secession to many who fly it.
Experiencing this has helped me to understand that.

As a life long resident of the south, I CAN comprehend what that symbol denotes. It does denote slavery and secession. Just because people CHOOSE to make it mean something else, like southern heritage or honoring the dead, does not take away from the original intent of the creation of the flag.

Guess you experience something much different... or CHOOSE to.

Jeanwah

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

As a life long resident of the south, I CAN comprehend what that symbol denotes. It does denote slavery and secession. Just because people CHOOSE to make it mean something else, like southern heritage or honoring the dead, does not take away from the original intent of the creation of the flag.

Guess you experience something much different... or CHOOSE to.

Quick question, Pandora what do you think the Civil War was about?

justam

I think it is both! :?

Historic because it existed in the past and represents pride in the South to some people.

Offensive because pride in the old South often means that people are wishing for The Old Ways. The Old Ways included keeping an entire group of people down. It included holding people in slavery. This is the offensive part!! :x

Sorry, but there's no way to look at that flag without the pain of remembering that some people were held as less-than-human during that period. :(

aerial

It is also a symbolizes being a Rebel.....who rebels....kids.

Cosmo

Jeanwah wrote:

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

As a life long resident of the south, I CAN comprehend what that symbol denotes. It does denote slavery and secession. Just because people CHOOSE to make it mean something else, like southern heritage or honoring the dead, does not take away from the original intent of the creation of the flag.

Guess you experience something much different... or CHOOSE to.

Quick question, Pandora what do you think the Civil War was about?

...
Thank Google and Wikipedia in advance for your answer.

Cosmo

aerial wrote:

It is also a symbolizes being a Rebel.....who rebels....kids.

...
Rebels against who/what?

hedonist

Cosmo wrote:

aerial wrote:

It is also a symbolizes being a Rebel.....who rebels....kids.

...
Rebels against who/what?

Whadda you got?

(couldn't resist)

Cosmo

This is the enemy flag of the Confederates:

prism

justam wrote:

I think it is both! :?

Historic because it existed in the past and represents pride in the South to some people.

Offensive because pride in the old South often means that people are wishing for The Old Ways. The Old Ways included keeping an entire group of people down. It included holding people in slavery. This is the offensive part!! :x

Sorry, but there's no way to look at that flag without the pain of remembering that some people were held as less-than-human during that period. :(

exactly!

shown in museums and reinactments etc. in a strictly historical context it's okay

just because one of my great, great grandfathers (he didn't own slaves) fought for the confederacy and spent time held in an Union prison camp doesn't mean i wanna display, see or have a confederate flag. since it does symbolize slavery (to whatever degree) and many are descened from those people that spent their entire lives held as slaves find it highly offensive...i also view it as offensive

besides if displaying it is all about southern family reverance :roll: then i'd have to display the union flag too since another of my great, great grandpa's fought for the union

i grew up in virginia (around many civil war sites and battlefields) it's always been pretty clear to me that those displaying the confederate flag are largely ignorant and bigoted...they do it to show their superority complex with the full intention of offending others

mcgruff10

A very spirited and very intellectual arguement and for that I thank all of you. A kid in my last period class asked what I thought about the kid being suspended..... I thought about it for a few long seconds and I said as much as I don't support the symbolism behind the confederate flag I support our rights in the first amendment.
I personally feel that the confederate flag is a symbol of secession and slavery and don't support it.
And the way I teach history and have been taught is that it was a war to restore the United States. This happened because of the issue of states rights; case in point, the issue of slavery. How can a unified nation exist if states only follow the laws they want to?

riotgrl

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

pandora wrote:

No you can't but many can who lost family. That symbol denotes something much different
than you can comprehend. It does not denote slavery or secession to many who fly it.
Experiencing this has helped me to understand that.

As a life long resident of the south, I CAN comprehend what that symbol denotes. It does denote slavery and secession. Just because people CHOOSE to make it mean something else, like southern heritage or honoring the dead, does not take away from the original intent of the creation of the flag.

Guess you experience something much different... or CHOOSE to.

Choose to experience something different? I don't understand that. I CHOOSE to understand the history of both the flag and unconstitutional secession of 11 states, states that CHOSE to disregard the Constitution.

Shawshank

If anyone thinks for a moment that a single drop of Union blood was willingly shed with the mindset of freeing slaves, then they definitely need to research the subject a bit more.

It could easily be argued that the Union flag is even more "offensive" for even greater reasons.

Cosmo

Shawshank wrote:

If anyone thinks for a moment that a single drop of Union blood was willingly shed with the mindset of freeing slaves, then they definitely need to research the subject a bit more.

It could easily be argued that the Union flag is even more "offensive" for even greater reasons.

...
The Union soldiers were following the marching orders of the United States of America. The goal was to preserve the Union and prevent the South from becoming a competative nation.
Most of America (including many in the North) at that time didn't give a shit about the slaves.

riotgrl

Shawshank wrote:

If anyone thinks for a moment that a single drop of Union blood was willingly shed with the mindset of freeing slaves, then they definitely need to research the subject a bit more.

It could easily be argued that the Union flag is even more "offensive" for even greater reasons.

Oh, absolutely, the North was probably more racist than the South. But I'm not sure I understand your argument that the US flag is more offensive that the Confederate flag - elaborate?