confederate flag: offensive or historical?

riotgrl

Cosmo wrote:

Shawshank wrote:

If anyone thinks for a moment that a single drop of Union blood was willingly shed with the mindset of freeing slaves, then they definitely need to research the subject a bit more.

It could easily be argued that the Union flag is even more "offensive" for even greater reasons.

...
The Union soldiers were following the marching orders of the United States of America. The goal was to preserve the Union and prevent the South from becoming a competative nation.
Most of America (including many in the North) at that time didn't give a shit about the slaves.

Long term though I don't think the South would have remained very competitive with a one note economy based entirely on single crop agriculture. Perhaps the North understood that while the South was really trying to preserve their way of life?

Cosmo

riotgrl wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

Shawshank wrote:

If anyone thinks for a moment that a single drop of Union blood was willingly shed with the mindset of freeing slaves, then they definitely need to research the subject a bit more.

It could easily be argued that the Union flag is even more "offensive" for even greater reasons.

...
The Union soldiers were following the marching orders of the United States of America. The goal was to preserve the Union and prevent the South from becoming a competative nation.
Most of America (including many in the North) at that time didn't give a shit about the slaves.

Long term though I don't think the South would have remained very competitive with a one note economy based entirely on single crop agriculture. Perhaps the North understood that while the South was really trying to preserve their way of life?

...
But, they did not know that the agricultural South not be able to compete in the impending industrial boom... at that time. One of the contributing factors that lead to the Civil War was a land grab for the Louisianna Territory and how to govern the territories.
It was not solely about the slavery issue... although slavery did play a large role in it. The Civile War was not a war to 'Free The Slaves'... it was a war to control the massive potential of agricultural fortunes in the mid-Western plains of this fairly recently acquired land.

BinauralJam

Cosmo wrote:

This is the enemy flag of the Confederates:

Not just them

vant0037

Shawshank wrote:

If anyone thinks for a moment that a single drop of Union blood was willingly shed with the mindset of freeing slaves, then they definitely need to research the subject a bit more.

It could easily be argued that the Union flag is even more "offensive" for even greater reasons.

I'll take you up on that. There are plenty of union soldiers journals that have survived in which the authors state that they are fighting for the preservation of the Union and for the "dignity of all men." John Brown waged an insurrection for that very cause, one in which dozens were killed and he himself was ultimately hanged. Hanging doesn't usually result in a "drop of blood" being shed...but I know you're not nitpicking.

STAYSEA

It's meant to be for southern pride. Nothing more.

The Germans used


for that thing.


The Japanese have used the same symbol for thousands of years before. Cultures older than them used it.

The swastika, in the Japanese sense, can mean a number of positive things from strength to compassion.

The bottom line is that when you see a swastika in Japan, it’s not some anti-Semitic symbol; it’s usually used as a positive symbol of Buddhism. I definitely understand why the swastika has such an incredibly negative connotation in the West, but the thousands of years of history that Japan has with the swastika overrides the awful associations that much of the Western world has with it.





And, with all the horrific things that the Nazis/Racists did, it's hard not to associate the swastika/confederate symbols as the brand of terror and hate. Images on a flag.... plastered over anything you can think of – cars, banners, uniforms, arm bands, and so on.

It’s kind of amazing, really a wonderful peaceful symbol can be transformed, a symbol that had been around for hundreds/ thousands of years from something positive to something negative.








For me, the confederate flag reminds me that the United States fought a horrible, bloody, ugly battle. So many of Americans died for stupid reasons. It is a reminder to love and respect your neighbor. Never let it happen again.

JTH

mcgruff10 wrote:

A kid in my last period class asked what I thought about the kid being suspended.....

So where, exactly, did this suspension take place? Because I can't find any credible news source that makes mention of it.

Drowned Out

Taking pride in flags is stupid to begin with. Its a state symbol, if you take actual pride in a symbol, and find some kind of your identity in a state symbol, you might want to check yourself.
Coming from that angle, I suppose i have a bias...
but I see it like this...
If you KNOW that a shitload of people find it offensive....and you are multiple generations removed from any kind of meaningful attachment to YOU as an individual....does your supposed pride in your heritage, and whatever kick it gives you to support your ancestors, trump the feelings of the people you are making feel small, angry, and oppressed in the here and now? Or do you just not give a fuck and are a bit of a douche?
I honestly think that some people who fly the flag are just ignorant as fuck and see it as something from the Dukes of Hazard. You people are assuming these dumbasses know history......
(My bro in law had the flag on a license plate in the back window of a truck he bought...he drove around with it for months before I said something to my sister...at which point he took it down, realizing what it meant...yes, even rednecks in Canada fly the flag....further support to the offensive side since it has no possible positive historical value up here)

All said....fly the flag, I appreciate the zero-effort judgment

STAYSEA

Drowned Out wrote:

Taking pride in flags is stupid to begin with. Its a state symbol, if you take actual pride in a symbol, and find some kind of your identity in a state symbol, you might want to check yourself.
Coming from that angle, I suppose i have a bias...
but I see it like this...
If you KNOW that a shitload of people find it offensive....and you are multiple generations removed from any kind of meaningful attachment to YOU as an individual....does your supposed pride in your heritage, and whatever kick it gives you to support your ancestors, trump the feelings of the people you are making feel small, angry, and oppressed in the here and now? Or do you just not give a fuck and are a bit of a douche?
I honestly think that some people who fly the flag are just ignorant as fuck and see it as something from the Dukes of Hazard. You people are assuming these dumbasses know history......
(My bro in law had the flag on a license plate in the back window of a truck he bought...he drove around with it for months before I said something to my sister...at which point he took it down, realizing what it meant...yes, even rednecks in Canada fly the flag....further support to the offensive side since it has no possible positive historical value up here)

All said....fly the flag, I appreciate the zero-effort judgment

I don't fly any flags. Only my Pearl Jam Freak Flag... if they had one. But yes ignorant frucks enjoy the flags and cartoons.

I DO know my history, more than I ever wanted to. The confederate flag is symbolism for respect, and pride.
I don't find it at all offensive. It is only the uneducated that believe it means something else, I find bad.

A small percent of people here will ever dive deep enough to know. You can't ask a music forum. :nono:

Truth lies in truth. It takes some people YEARS, to seek this answer. Knowledge is powerful.


It means rebel to a certain degree... but only because it :fp: I'm not talking about this.

riotgrl

Cosmo wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

Cosmo wrote:

...
The Union soldiers were following the marching orders of the United States of America. The goal was to preserve the Union and prevent the South from becoming a competative nation.
Most of America (including many in the North) at that time didn't give a shit about the slaves.

Long term though I don't think the South would have remained very competitive with a one note economy based entirely on single crop agriculture. Perhaps the North understood that while the South was really trying to preserve their way of life?

...
But, they did not know that the agricultural South not be able to compete in the impending industrial boom... at that time. One of the contributing factors that lead to the Civil War was a land grab for the Louisianna Territory and how to govern the territories.
It was not solely about the slavery issue... although slavery did play a large role in it. The Civile War was not a war to 'Free The Slaves'... it was a war to control the massive potential of agricultural fortunes in the mid-Western plains of this fairly recently acquired land.

I disagree that the North did not know that the South couldn't compete. The North had been moving towards a manufacturing based economy for the entirety of the 19th century while the South continued to focus totally on an agriculture based economy (which is part of the reason for their ultimate defeat in the war). As I stated in a previous post, the massive territorial expansion brought to light the large economic differences between North and South and how to control these new territories - the bulk of the argument over governance was about slavery - Crittenden Compromise, Kansas-Nebraska Act, popular sovereignty, Compromise of 1850, the Wilmot Proviso and on and on. My ultimate point has been not to reduce this war to an argument about economics - that was a part of it, a large part of it, but slavery and states rights played just as large of a role. That argument is why I find the Confederate flag angering.

riotgrl

STAYSEA wrote:

Drowned Out wrote:

Taking pride in flags is stupid to begin with. Its a state symbol, if you take actual pride in a symbol, and find some kind of your identity in a state symbol, you might want to check yourself.
Coming from that angle, I suppose i have a bias...
but I see it like this...
If you KNOW that a shitload of people find it offensive....and you are multiple generations removed from any kind of meaningful attachment to YOU as an individual....does your supposed pride in your heritage, and whatever kick it gives you to support your ancestors, trump the feelings of the people you are making feel small, angry, and oppressed in the here and now? Or do you just not give a fuck and are a bit of a douche?
I honestly think that some people who fly the flag are just ignorant as fuck and see it as something from the Dukes of Hazard. You people are assuming these dumbasses know history......
(My bro in law had the flag on a license plate in the back window of a truck he bought...he drove around with it for months before I said something to my sister...at which point he took it down, realizing what it meant...yes, even rednecks in Canada fly the flag....further support to the offensive side since it has no possible positive historical value up here)

All said....fly the flag, I appreciate the zero-effort judgment

I don't fly any flags. Only my Pearl Jam Freak Flag... if they had one. But yes ignorant frucks enjoy the flags and cartoons.

I DO know my history, more than I ever wanted to. The confederate flag is symbolism for respect, and pride.
I don't find it at all offensive. It is only the uneducated that believe it means something else, I find bad.

A small percent of people here will ever dive deep enough to know. You can't ask a music forum. :nono:

Truth lies in truth. It takes some people YEARS, to seek this answer. Knowledge is powerful.


It means rebel to a certain degree... but only because it :fp: I'm not talking about this.

How is this flag a symbol for respect and pride? If you understand the history of the South and you understand the history of the Civil War then you know that, in part, this war was fought so that Southerners could protect their way of life. A way of life built on agriculture. A way of life built on a farming system that required nominal cash input to maintain the life (food, shelter, clothing and that is pretty much it) of a slave.

pandora

riotgrl wrote:

Choose to experience something different? I don't understand that. I CHOOSE to understand the history of both the flag and unconstitutional secession of 11 states, states that CHOSE to disregard the Constitution.

Are you only understanding that though and perhaps not how individual people feel?
I ask because of my life experience.
I might have once been this judgmental to assume no one should proudly fly that flag
then I met some folks and learned the reason they fly it.

I learned why they dress like their ancestors and walk in pride in reenactments, honoring
people not the event nor what brought it, but souls whose lives were cut short.

Whether I agree with what happened those many years ago or not I will always stand by those
who honor others today and try to understand how they all feel and not judge them
for the flag they love.

riotgrl

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

Choose to experience something different? I don't understand that. I CHOOSE to understand the history of both the flag and unconstitutional secession of 11 states, states that CHOSE to disregard the Constitution.

Are you only understanding that though and perhaps not how individual people feel?
I ask because of my life experience.
I might have once been this judgmental to assume no one should proudly fly that flag
then I met some folks and learned the reason they fly it.

I learned why they dress like their ancestors and walk in pride in reenactments, honoring
people not the event nor what brought it, but souls whose lives were cut short.

Whether I agree with what happened those many years ago or not I will always stand by those
who honor others today and try to understand how they all feel and not judge them
for the flag they love.

Kind of like you are judging me? Please put me on ignore and stop responding to my posts and I will extend you the same courtesy.

pandora

riotgrl wrote:

pandora wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

Choose to experience something different? I don't understand that. I CHOOSE to understand the history of both the flag and unconstitutional secession of 11 states, states that CHOSE to disregard the Constitution.

Are you only understanding that though and perhaps not how individual people feel?
I ask because of my life experience.
I might have once been this judgmental to assume no one should proudly fly that flag
then I met some folks and learned the reason they fly it.

I learned why they dress like their ancestors and walk in pride in reenactments, honoring
people not the event nor what brought it, but souls whose lives were cut short.

Whether I agree with what happened those many years ago or not I will always stand by those
who honor others today and try to understand how they all feel and not judge them
for the flag they love.

Kind of like you are judging me? Please put me on ignore and stop responding to my posts and I will extend you the same courtesy.

Our life experiences, our interactions, make us who we are and give us our opinions.
Yours is very different than mine on this subject.

It appears you have made up your mind about all people who display this flag
and choose to ignore their individual motives. They should not for any reason display this flag.
I disagree is all.

We will agree to disagree and if you do not quote me in the future I will not quote you either.

ed243421

That flag from the civil war represents a large group of people who hate anyone that is not a "white, male, American"

It represents ignorance at a level that has allowed politicians to convince their supporters to believe that money is more important than the life of any human being

And the confederate flag is really fucking awful, too

Godfather.

ahhhh and very idea or suspision of hate creates more hate...all are guilty, unless hate for some and not others is o.k.

Godfather.

Byrnzie

pandora wrote:

Whether I agree with what happened those many years ago or not I will always stand by those
who honor others today and try to understand how they all feel and not judge them
for the flag they love.

Do you also stand by those who honour the memory of the Waffen S.S, who fought to wipe all Jews from the face of the Earth?

Do you stand by these people and try to understand how they feel, and not judge them for the flag/symbol they love?



This is the symbol they love, and the Swastika is the flag they love. My question is a serious one and not meant to be offensive. How far does this fluffy notion of yours extend? Or is it merely limited to some (the Confederates), and not others?

Anyone know the flag/symbol of the KKK?

Does your heart reach out to those who honour the memory of these Crucifix-burning gimps too?

Godfather.

Byrnzie wrote:

pandora wrote:

Whether I agree with what happened those many years ago or not I will always stand by those
who honor others today and try to understand how they all feel and not judge them
for the flag they love.

Do you also stand by those who honour the memory of the Waffen S.S, who fought to wipe all Jews from the face of the Earth?

Do you stand by these people and try to understand how they feel, and not judge them for the flag they love?



This is the symbol they love, and the Swastika is the flag they love. My question is a serious one. How far does this fluffy notion of yours extend? Or is it merely limited to some (the Confederates), and not others?

Anyone know the flag/symbol of the KKK?

Does your heart reach out to those who honour the memory of these Crucifix-burning gimps too?

man really ? why do you even ask and compare these two events ? this line of defense and answering questions with questions sounds like you have run out of ammo ...so to speak.


Godfather.

pandora

Byrnzie wrote:

pandora wrote:

Whether I agree with what happened those many years ago or not I will always stand by those
who honor others today and try to understand how they all feel and not judge them
for the flag they love.

Do you also stand by those who honour the memory of the Waffen S.S, who fought to wipe all Jews from the face of the Earth?

Do you stand by these people and try to understand how they feel, and not judge them for the flag/symbol they love?



This is the symbol they love, and the Swastika is the flag they love. My question is a serious one and not meant to be offensive. How far does this fluffy notion of yours extend? Or is it merely limited to some (the Confederates), and not others?

Anyone know the flag/symbol of the KKK?

Does your heart reach out to those who honour the memory of these Crucifix-burning gimps too?

Would you know offensive if it slapped you upside the head :?
I think "fluffy notion" is offensive. I think it belittles my opinion, my life lessons
and the people I have met who fly the flag for loved ones lost,
that you would prejudge for doing so.
So it seems it is a fail agan for you if indeed you were attempting not to be offensive
to me and others who have known good people who walk proudly with that flag.

Byrnzie

pandora wrote:

So it seems it is a fail agan for you if indeed you were attempting not to be offensive
to me and others who have known good people who walk proudly with that flag.

Which flag? The Confederate flag, or the Waffen S.S?

pandora

Byrnzie wrote:

pandora wrote:

So it seems it is a fail agan for you if indeed you were attempting not to be offensive
to me and others who have known good people who walk proudly with that flag.

Which flag? The Confederate flag, or the Waffen S.S?

The one on topic