Not one person who claims the old way (e.g. the F5 method) is better than a lottery has provided a solid, irrefutable link that their "effort" during that ticket buying process resulted in tickets. Even more, the F5 defenders can't provide that evidence, because none of us have access to the internal processes that occurred during those sales! So if we can't be sure that the F5 method wasn't also luck, then how can anyone persist in saying it's better than the lottery?
I think some people are using this issue - a rock band's fan club ticketing policy, mind you - as a way to grind their own political ax.
Such political extrapolation, without evidence that the F5 method rewarded your effort, is downright ridiculous.
Dude, you and I have been back and forth with this countless times. I know you're coming from an good place with your argument but I don't know what "proof" you're looking for exactly. I got tickets for every show I wanted for years. There is no way I was just lucky. I am not the only one with this experience either. Plenty of people have testified to the same experience. Why can't you just accept that?
I point this out because when people are willing to take a ticket lottery and draw some political conclusion about fairness and effort and just desserts, I think that ratchets up the discussion some. If people (not you) are going to do that, then I think it's only appropriate that we get our facts straight.
Yes, it's certainly curious that you got tickets every year, but without anything else, it's just an assumption. Like I said, I make this point again here, in this thread, more as a response to the idea that the lottery somehow has political lessons we can draw about the people supporting either side.
So like I said, if we're going to persist in having the discussion about the lottery in that regard (again, you aren't), then let's get our facts straight. The most anyone who supports the F5 experience can point to as why it worked "better" is that they always got tickets. No one can point to anything else, such as the number of refreshes or the strength of their connection etc etc etc, as to how the F5 process was related to effort.
I'm not even interested in whether the lottery or F5 was better. I'm just sick of people drawing this unrelated conclusions about the people who support one side or another. Let's call a spade a spade: no one knows for sure if F5 was luck or effort. So let's stop talking about it in those terms.
The debate you and I had went around and around, but not really on this point.
1998-06-30 Minneapolis
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2 2018-06-18 London 1 2018-08-18 Wrigley 1 2018-08-20 Wrigley 2 2022-09-16 Nashville 2023-08-31 St. Paul 2023-09-02 St. Paul 2023-09-05 Chicago 1
yeah, I was about 12-0 on the old system, and 0-2 in the new as well.
it has nothing to do with politics either as Im pretty liberal
Yes, but you're also not one of the people who has advanced, time and time again, your support of the F5 system based on the politics of it. My argument about the "proof of the F5-effort relationship" is more to call out those who do continue in that line of argument.
1998-06-30 Minneapolis
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2 2018-06-18 London 1 2018-08-18 Wrigley 1 2018-08-20 Wrigley 2 2022-09-16 Nashville 2023-08-31 St. Paul 2023-09-02 St. Paul 2023-09-05 Chicago 1
I could either go to London or Wrigley. Couldnt afford to travel both. Figured London would be an easier drive and could do the trip in 1 night. Only put in for London, as if I got both non-transferrable pairs, I likely could only attend one.
However, knowing I was denied for London, it would be nice to have had a chance for Wrigs.
Same thing kind of goes for the tiers such as Wrigley. I would love a shot at GA, but also a chance at lower/reserved if that fails. I think it is kind of shitty and torturous to make separate pools.
I can see these scenarios repeating themselves frequently, especially with the patterns they announce and play shows.
I could either go to London or Wrigley. Couldnt afford to travel both. Figured London would be an easier drive and could do the trip in 1 night. Only put in for London, as if I got both non-transferrable pairs, I likely could only attend one.
However, knowing I was denied for London, it would be nice to have had a chance for Wrigs.
Same thing kind of goes for the tiers such as Wrigley. I would love a shot at GA, but also a chance at lower/reserved if that fails. I think it is kind of shitty and torturous to make separate pools.
I can see these scenarios repeating themselves frequently, especially with the patterns they announce and play shows.
That all may be true, and I'm inclined to agree on the pools thing (although I don't think that pools will be the case for every show). But I'm not even arguing about the F5 vs. lottery anymore. I understand why people are upset. I'm only saying that if we're going to make nonsense arguments that F5 was better because it rewarded X and that has some sort of political lesson for all of us to learn (re-read this thread, you'll see what I'm talking about), then let's be clear about whether F5 really did reward effort. While it might be the case, no one can prove that.
I argue that point only to point out the flawed logic in drawing political conclusions about a fan club's ticketing policies. There are some who continue to do so.
1998-06-30 Minneapolis
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2 2018-06-18 London 1 2018-08-18 Wrigley 1 2018-08-20 Wrigley 2 2022-09-16 Nashville 2023-08-31 St. Paul 2023-09-02 St. Paul 2023-09-05 Chicago 1
Not one person who claims the old way (e.g. the F5 method) is better than a lottery has provided a solid, irrefutable link that their "effort" during that ticket buying process resulted in tickets. Even more, the F5 defenders can't provide that evidence, because none of us have access to the internal processes that occurred during those sales! So if we can't be sure that the F5 method wasn't also luck, then how can anyone persist in saying it's better than the lottery?
I think some people are using this issue - a rock band's fan club ticketing policy, mind you - as a way to grind their own political ax.
Such political extrapolation, without evidence that the F5 method rewarded your effort, is downright ridiculous.
Dude, you and I have been back and forth with this countless times. I know you're coming from an good place with your argument but I don't know what "proof" you're looking for exactly. I got tickets for every show I wanted for years. There is no way I was just lucky. I am not the only one with this experience either. Plenty of people have testified to the same experience. Why can't you just accept that?
Well said october22. The proof that vant0037 calls for has been provided... many people with perfect F5 records. Statistically speaking, that is impossible if it was just random. Case closed. But I will go one step further, I ask him to provide a solid, irrefutable link that our "effort" during that ticket buying process had no contribution to the results. Much harder to prove, but good luck. :corn:
But I will go one step further, I ask him to provide a solid, irrefutable link that our "effort" during that ticket buying process had no contribution to the results. Much harder to prove, but good luck. :corn:
I don't think you can logically prove that kind of relationship.
vant0037 does have a point about our internal politics. The argument over egalitarianism in outcomes is at the core of political debate over economics worldwide ("should I receive more for expending greater effort than someone else?") and the affirmative answer is a fundamental pillar of America's WASP-y middle class, which just happens to the majority of PJ's domestic fan base whom are those most effected by the lottery.
Let me put on my old-white-guy-hat here for a second and say those of us who camped out in the rain to get tickets back in the 90's felt we earned those tickets and felt a kinship to the fans around us because we knew they had earned them as well. We valued them and the concert experience more because we sacrificed and were rewarded. The psychological reward was a sense of validation and justice, even with the knowledge that not everyone was able to sacrifice like that for a whole host of reasons.
The F5 system although flawed, mostly because they insisted on running sales on a work/school day and not properly staggering them, had that same psychological effect. The lotto has the opposite psychological effect. There is no link between a positive behavior and the benefit. It conveys effortless rewards and condones a sense of entitlement ("I am entitled to the same benefit regardless of my willingness to work for it"), thus it mocks those who value working-to-earn-it. This is a political value, as vant noted, and not universally held in modern society so the debate will never be settled partially because the lotto side (effortless rewards) are correct when they say it's more "fair" since there will always be those who cannot work to earn a benefit no matter how much they may desire to.
It is somewhat ironic that songs like Bushleaguer and WMA bemoan the benefits of birth lottery and the entitlements given to those who do nothing to earn them, yet the same philosophy is no longer carried over into fan club ticketing.
Well said october22. The proof that vant0037 calls for has been provided... many people with perfect F5 records. Statistically speaking, that is impossible if it was just random. Case closed. But I will go one step further, I ask him to provide a solid, irrefutable link that our "effort" during that ticket buying process had no contribution to the results. Much harder to prove, but good luck. :corn:
Not so fast.
You make the assertion, then the burden is on YOU to provide the evidence. If F5 was effort, where's the proof?
That selected posters on here have all said they had perfect track records? That's still an assumption.
What about people that expended little effort and got tickets?
And where the hell did "effort" and just desserts get mixed up in this?
Has anyone ever considered that maybe, just maybe, the amount of effort required (assuming that had anything to do with it) was exactly why 10c made the change? Sure, it might not fit your political view of the world, but maybe 10c said, "if buying tickets isn't as simple as putting them in your cart and clicking 'submit', we need to change." Ever think of that?
So for now, the burden remains on you, the proponent of a position - namely, that the F5 system was based on effort - to provide proof that it was. You can't, unless of course you're privy to the internal ticketing process during those past sales, which means, you should probably stop advancing political arguments based on things you cannot prove.
1998-06-30 Minneapolis
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2 2018-06-18 London 1 2018-08-18 Wrigley 1 2018-08-20 Wrigley 2 2022-09-16 Nashville 2023-08-31 St. Paul 2023-09-02 St. Paul 2023-09-05 Chicago 1
F5 was unfair to the entire membership and unfairly benefited a small number. It is as simple as that.
On big shows more people were shut out of ticket sales than who actually made it through. Skill and effort played absolutely no part in getting tickets, only persistence and luck - many members who missed out tried every bit as hard as those who got tickets. The user experience was terrible. Having to spend hours watching your browser time out and the cart fail is unacceptable. If you think you had some kind of magical system then you are seriously deluded. Sure you can optimise your chances with some careful maintenance of your browser and hitting the right links, but that does not guarantee success.
I have only missed out on tickets to one show (MSG2) through hitting F5 and made it to some pretty amazing shows, but those couple of hours were shithouse and the source of constant bitching on here. It was a classic clusterfuck which not only cause great angst among members, but also countless headaches, costs and anxiety to the poor people trying to keep the site up and store open. It had to end.
Now the system is fair - all members get an equal chance to go to the shows they want.
It appears this is the system they've settled on, a system akin to the early 10 Club ticket system. I like it and I'm, sure, I'm going to miss out on tickets to certain shows from time to time, but fuck it, I'll find one somewhere - and probably a 10c spare. And for the times I have to pay a bit extra from a reseller, too bad, it's still better than wasting a whole lot of time in the F5 lottery.
I think there are somethings that could probably be improved, like:
Giving members priority on their home town/regional shows
A multiple show ticket for those who take in the entire tour or certain legs.
Waitlist - where people unable to use their tickets could return them to be issued to the person next on the list
A plus one register where people could list spare singles and be linked up with those looking for singles from the wait list
Within the confines of the new system, some pretty cool things could be done with the resulting databases of ticket requests. Wouldn't it be far more productive to use the passion and energy people have towards refining the new system so it better suits everyone's needs rather than bloody mindedly call for a return to a system that was broken, unfair and toxic to the 10 Club Brand. If your changes have improved - great - if they have dropped - stiff shit - that's the way things go when fairness is the rule - we all have an equal chance now.
No member is any more or less entitled to tickets than any other. I think people need to think about that for a second.
F5 was unfair to the entire membership and unfairly benefited a small number. It is as simple as that.
Now the system is fair - all members get an equal chance to go to the shows they want.
No member is any more or less entitled to tickets than any other. I think people need to think about that for a second.
f5 was a disaster. Not just because it benefited a small number but because the technology failed miserably. To say otherwise demonstrates a lack of cognitive ability.
I don't agree that the new system allows all members to get an equal chance to go to the shows they want. The new "priority" system will prevent that. Members will need to be selective about which shows they select as first priority as in many cases, the second priority shows will be sold out.
However, the new system, in theory, will put 10c tickets in the hands of MORE members. And Id be willing to bet that is the parameter the band established when they went about revising the system.
It will most likely mean I score 10c tickets to less shows. Big deal. I will probably get more than one show, like they did it in the early days, but less than the multiple shows Ive enjoyed during the past tours. I am OK with that. It works. I send an email and find out later if I got tickets. What could be easier for me? Nothing.
I'm loving the new lottery. And for a larger tour it will be even better.
yep..so funny people still dont get it..
1000 pairs 1000 fans want them all score no matter the method
1000 pairs 100.000 want them 1 of 100 fans will score only no matter the method..
lottery fast,easy ,fair,,,..took the "power" from fans hands...
not the same fans now always score...
Gracias 10c
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
That's what makes the argument so moot. Some people feel better off on the f5 method, and some people feel better of with the lottery. We will always argue for the system we think works best for us
When you come down to it, the exact same number of fan members get tickets, so I do try to shrug it off.
The problem isn't the allocation method, its the lack of shows and lack of tickets. PJ does tour very much anymore so alot of people have gone mobile to see their favorite band. When PJ keeps tours small it doesn't matter where they play, because the people come to them.
Secondly Ticketing Agencies continue to make it harder for fan clubs to get tickets. IE the 10c probably gets much smaller allocations than they used too. Smaller tour/Less ticket.
The Real Solution: PJ Needs to Tour Even the backspacer tour seems a litle truncated. There has been a decent sized tour since 2006? Gotta deal with the demand. They've never been a band to do a Foo Fighters sized tour, I'm just hoping they'd do a Yield/Binaural 3 legs tour kind of thing. Two N.A. legs and a foreign leg somewhere.
That's what makes the argument so moot. Some people feel better off on the f5 method, and some people feel better of with the lottery. We will always argue for the system we think works best for us
When you come down to it, the exact same number of fan members get tickets, so I do try to shrug it off.
The problem isn't the allocation method, its the lack of shows and lack of tickets. PJ does tour very much anymore so alot of people have gone mobile to see their favorite band. When PJ keeps tours small it doesn't matter where they play, because the people come to them.
Secondly Ticketing Agencies continue to make it harder for fan clubs to get tickets. IE the 10c probably gets much smaller allocations than they used too. Smaller tour/Less ticket.
The Real Solution: PJ Needs to Tour Even the backspacer tour seems a litle truncated. There has been a decent sized tour since 2006? Gotta deal with the demand. They've never been a band to do a Foo Fighters sized tour, I'm just hoping they'd do a Yield/Binaural 3 legs tour kind of thing. Two N.A. legs and a foreign leg somewhere.
This is all true except what annoys me is not having access to more than one show with 10C in the same market. Yes, it means that tickets will be spread out among more fans and that's not a bad thing but I'm used to having great tix for multiple shows in my area. That was the fun of it. Having a group of friends with 10C tickets and hitting the road together. That will never happen again. And yes, under the old system we all scored tickets so it's complete bs to claim that was luck. Those days were so much fun but sadly they're gone as most of us will get shut out and may not want to shell out for tickets from a third party for shitty seats.
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Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
where are the saboteur's when you need them to sabotage the lotto
there are companies out there that can handle ticket sales without crashing
where are the saboteur's when you need them to sabotage the lotto
there are companies out there that can handle ticket sales without crashing
You're opening up another can of worms there, bro. People don't like the idea of outsourcing 10C.
What are you doing up anyway? Isn't it past your bedtime? Unless you're working on securing that date for me. Any pictures of this chick by the way? Do I need to send you a link for Taylor Swift so you don't fuck this up?
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81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
where are the saboteur's when you need them to sabotage the lotto
there are companies out there that can handle ticket sales without crashing
You're opening up another can of worms there, bro. People don't like the idea of outsourcing 10C.
What are you doing up anyway? Isn't it past your bedtime? Unless you're working on securing that date for me. Any pictures of this chick by the way? Do I need to send you a link for Taylor Swift so you don't fuck this up?
i need to text her and see what she's been up to. we're suppose to do bong rips one of these days
where are the saboteur's when you need them to sabotage the lotto
there are companies out there that can handle ticket sales without crashing
You're opening up another can of worms there, bro. People don't like the idea of outsourcing 10C.
What are you doing up anyway? Isn't it past your bedtime? Unless you're working on securing that date for me. Any pictures of this chick by the way? Do I need to send you a link for Taylor Swift so you don't fuck this up?
i need to text her and see what she's been up to. we're suppose to do bong rips one of these days
Alright, just don't cause too much brain damage before Wrigley. Cross eyed girls aren't (as) attractive.
That's what makes the argument so moot. Some people feel better off on the f5 method, and some people feel better of with the lottery. We will always argue for the system we think works best for us
When you come down to it, the exact same number of fan members get tickets, so I do try to shrug it off.
The problem isn't the allocation method, its the lack of shows and lack of tickets. PJ does tour very much anymore so alot of people have gone mobile to see their favorite band. When PJ keeps tours small it doesn't matter where they play, because the people come to them.
Secondly Ticketing Agencies continue to make it harder for fan clubs to get tickets. IE the 10c probably gets much smaller allocations than they used too. Smaller tour/Less ticket.
The Real Solution: PJ Needs to Tour Even the backspacer tour seems a litle truncated. There has been a decent sized tour since 2006? Gotta deal with the demand. They've never been a band to do a Foo Fighters sized tour, I'm just hoping they'd do a Yield/Binaural 3 legs tour kind of thing. Two N.A. legs and a foreign leg somewhere.
This is all true except what annoys me is not having access to more than one show with 10C in the same market. Yes, it means that tickets will be spread out among more fans and that's not a bad thing but I'm used to having great tix for multiple shows in my area. That was the fun of it. Having a group of friends with 10C tickets and hitting the road together. That will never happen again. And yes, under the old system we all scored tickets so it's complete bs to claim that was luck. Those days were so much fun but sadly they're gone as most of us will get shut out and may not want to shell out for tickets from a third party for shitty seats.
I don't know if this is true. Depending on the market(s), I don't foresee having trouble getting tickets to all the shows.
For this very limited run of shows (Wrigley and London), It has been almost an embarrassment of riches for my two Pearl Jam Ten club buddies who I travel to all the shows together.
We all put in for the London/Wrigley pre-sale. One of us got tickets to Wrigley. The other guy got a single from the Tickemaster (or whomever) in the general sale. I then put in for the Wrigley 2nd chance sale and got a pair, and my other two travelling buds are going. That is five of us with no problems going to this great show.
For London, I got a single from the public sale, my buddy got an extra from another ten club fan, and then two of us just won the London 2nd chance sale.
Being a part of this community means never having to buy scalper tickets. I've acquired or traded, or sold at face value dozens of tickets to all the shows I've ever wanted to get into.
Hit the Euro tour after my wife gave me the Hall Pass, but didn't anticipate it. Me and three of my friends decided to go. We easily secured for face value tickets to Oslo, Norway, and Sweden. Then my one friend couldn't go and hooked up three fans to the shows he was out of.
I don't know if this is true. Depending on the market(s), I don't foresee having trouble getting tickets to all the shows.
For this very limited run of shows (Wrigley and London), It has been almost an embarrassment of riches for my two Pearl Jam Ten club buddies who I travel to all the shows together.
We all put in for the London/Wrigley pre-sale. One of us got tickets to Wrigley. The other guy got a single from the Tickemaster (or whomever) in the general sale. I then put in for the Wrigley 2nd chance sale and got a pair, and my other two travelling buds are going. That is five of us with no problems going to this great show.
For London, I got a single from the public sale, my buddy got an extra from another ten club fan, and then two of us just won the London 2nd chance sale.
Being a part of this community means never having to buy scalper tickets. I've acquired or traded, or sold at face value dozens of tickets to all the shows I've ever wanted to get into.
Hit the Euro tour after my wife gave me the Hall Pass, but didn't anticipate it. Me and three of my friends decided to go. We easily secured for face value tickets to Oslo, Norway, and Sweden. Then my one friend couldn't go and hooked up three fans to the shows he was out of.
yep..thats was the unfair part,and 10c end it..
no one has any advantage now..
the only advantage you have is the same as the rest...need to be current memebr to have a shot..
your money is the same money rest of the fans..
no faster internet,no multiple bronwzers open,no better rooter,no better free time for job ,no need to change yout whole day to buy tickets,no links that lead you to the buy button ticket,no links to secure tickets already your shoping card and all u need to do is to check out,no links lead directly to the check out page,no links to lead you to have in your card multiple shows tickets the same time..nada..end,caput....
same money paid for memebership,same chances..
all in the bucket ,the lucky wins...
end of story..
the f5 method now is the story we will tell to our kids inthe years will follow..you know..
stories from the past...
thank you 10c... now some will feel how is to play the game 50% -50%..and not 100%-0% always for them..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I don't know if this is true. Depending on the market(s), I don't foresee having trouble getting tickets to all the shows.
For this very limited run of shows (Wrigley and London), It has been almost an embarrassment of riches for my two Pearl Jam Ten club buddies who I travel to all the shows together.
We all put in for the London/Wrigley pre-sale. One of us got tickets to Wrigley. The other guy got a single from the Tickemaster (or whomever) in the general sale. I then put in for the Wrigley 2nd chance sale and got a pair, and my other two travelling buds are going. That is five of us with no problems going to this great show.
For London, I got a single from the public sale, my buddy got an extra from another ten club fan, and then two of us just won the London 2nd chance sale.
Being a part of this community means never having to buy scalper tickets. I've acquired or traded, or sold at face value dozens of tickets to all the shows I've ever wanted to get into.
Hit the Euro tour after my wife gave me the Hall Pass, but didn't anticipate it. Me and three of my friends decided to go. We easily secured for face value tickets to Oslo, Norway, and Sweden. Then my one friend couldn't go and hooked up three fans to the shows he was out of.
This is the story all the time on these boards.
I love this community.
oh yeah buddy...oh yeah..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Because you did. And there was nothing wrong with that.
No matter what dimi says
fuck Dimi..
give me a fuck yeah for Chicago !!!
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I don't know if this is true. Depending on the market(s), I don't foresee having trouble getting tickets to all the shows.
For this very limited run of shows (Wrigley and London), It has been almost an embarrassment of riches for my two Pearl Jam Ten club buddies who I travel to all the shows together.
We all put in for the London/Wrigley pre-sale. One of us got tickets to Wrigley. The other guy got a single from the Tickemaster (or whomever) in the general sale. I then put in for the Wrigley 2nd chance sale and got a pair, and my other two travelling buds are going. That is five of us with no problems going to this great show.
For London, I got a single from the public sale, my buddy got an extra from another ten club fan, and then two of us just won the London 2nd chance sale.
Being a part of this community means never having to buy scalper tickets. I've acquired or traded, or sold at face value dozens of tickets to all the shows I've ever wanted to get into.
Hit the Euro tour after my wife gave me the Hall Pass, but didn't anticipate it. Me and three of my friends decided to go. We easily secured for face value tickets to Oslo, Norway, and Sweden. Then my one friend couldn't go and hooked up three fans to the shows he was out of.
This is the story all the time on these boards.
I love this community.
oh yeah buddy...oh yeah..
I'll give a fuck yeah to London and Wrigley!!! :thumbup:
Comments
it has nothing to do with politics either as Im pretty liberal
I point this out because when people are willing to take a ticket lottery and draw some political conclusion about fairness and effort and just desserts, I think that ratchets up the discussion some. If people (not you) are going to do that, then I think it's only appropriate that we get our facts straight.
Yes, it's certainly curious that you got tickets every year, but without anything else, it's just an assumption. Like I said, I make this point again here, in this thread, more as a response to the idea that the lottery somehow has political lessons we can draw about the people supporting either side.
So like I said, if we're going to persist in having the discussion about the lottery in that regard (again, you aren't), then let's get our facts straight. The most anyone who supports the F5 experience can point to as why it worked "better" is that they always got tickets. No one can point to anything else, such as the number of refreshes or the strength of their connection etc etc etc, as to how the F5 process was related to effort.
I'm not even interested in whether the lottery or F5 was better. I'm just sick of people drawing this unrelated conclusions about the people who support one side or another. Let's call a spade a spade: no one knows for sure if F5 was luck or effort. So let's stop talking about it in those terms.
The debate you and I had went around and around, but not really on this point.
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2
2018-06-18 London 1
2018-08-18 Wrigley 1
2018-08-20 Wrigley 2
2022-09-16 Nashville
2023-08-31 St. Paul
2023-09-02 St. Paul
2023-09-05 Chicago 1
Yes, but you're also not one of the people who has advanced, time and time again, your support of the F5 system based on the politics of it. My argument about the "proof of the F5-effort relationship" is more to call out those who do continue in that line of argument.
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2
2018-06-18 London 1
2018-08-18 Wrigley 1
2018-08-20 Wrigley 2
2022-09-16 Nashville
2023-08-31 St. Paul
2023-09-02 St. Paul
2023-09-05 Chicago 1
I could either go to London or Wrigley. Couldnt afford to travel both. Figured London would be an easier drive and could do the trip in 1 night. Only put in for London, as if I got both non-transferrable pairs, I likely could only attend one.
However, knowing I was denied for London, it would be nice to have had a chance for Wrigs.
Same thing kind of goes for the tiers such as Wrigley. I would love a shot at GA, but also a chance at lower/reserved if that fails. I think it is kind of shitty and torturous to make separate pools.
I can see these scenarios repeating themselves frequently, especially with the patterns they announce and play shows.
That all may be true, and I'm inclined to agree on the pools thing (although I don't think that pools will be the case for every show). But I'm not even arguing about the F5 vs. lottery anymore. I understand why people are upset. I'm only saying that if we're going to make nonsense arguments that F5 was better because it rewarded X and that has some sort of political lesson for all of us to learn (re-read this thread, you'll see what I'm talking about), then let's be clear about whether F5 really did reward effort. While it might be the case, no one can prove that.
I argue that point only to point out the flawed logic in drawing political conclusions about a fan club's ticketing policies. There are some who continue to do so.
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2
2018-06-18 London 1
2018-08-18 Wrigley 1
2018-08-20 Wrigley 2
2022-09-16 Nashville
2023-08-31 St. Paul
2023-09-02 St. Paul
2023-09-05 Chicago 1
Well said october22. The proof that vant0037 calls for has been provided... many people with perfect F5 records. Statistically speaking, that is impossible if it was just random. Case closed. But I will go one step further, I ask him to provide a solid, irrefutable link that our "effort" during that ticket buying process had no contribution to the results. Much harder to prove, but good luck. :corn:
I don't think you can logically prove that kind of relationship.
vant0037 does have a point about our internal politics. The argument over egalitarianism in outcomes is at the core of political debate over economics worldwide ("should I receive more for expending greater effort than someone else?") and the affirmative answer is a fundamental pillar of America's WASP-y middle class, which just happens to the majority of PJ's domestic fan base whom are those most effected by the lottery.
Let me put on my old-white-guy-hat here for a second and say those of us who camped out in the rain to get tickets back in the 90's felt we earned those tickets and felt a kinship to the fans around us because we knew they had earned them as well. We valued them and the concert experience more because we sacrificed and were rewarded. The psychological reward was a sense of validation and justice, even with the knowledge that not everyone was able to sacrifice like that for a whole host of reasons.
The F5 system although flawed, mostly because they insisted on running sales on a work/school day and not properly staggering them, had that same psychological effect. The lotto has the opposite psychological effect. There is no link between a positive behavior and the benefit. It conveys effortless rewards and condones a sense of entitlement ("I am entitled to the same benefit regardless of my willingness to work for it"), thus it mocks those who value working-to-earn-it. This is a political value, as vant noted, and not universally held in modern society so the debate will never be settled partially because the lotto side (effortless rewards) are correct when they say it's more "fair" since there will always be those who cannot work to earn a benefit no matter how much they may desire to.
It is somewhat ironic that songs like Bushleaguer and WMA bemoan the benefits of birth lottery and the entitlements given to those who do nothing to earn them, yet the same philosophy is no longer carried over into fan club ticketing.
Not so fast.
You make the assertion, then the burden is on YOU to provide the evidence. If F5 was effort, where's the proof?
That selected posters on here have all said they had perfect track records? That's still an assumption.
What about people that expended little effort and got tickets?
And where the hell did "effort" and just desserts get mixed up in this?
Has anyone ever considered that maybe, just maybe, the amount of effort required (assuming that had anything to do with it) was exactly why 10c made the change? Sure, it might not fit your political view of the world, but maybe 10c said, "if buying tickets isn't as simple as putting them in your cart and clicking 'submit', we need to change." Ever think of that?
So for now, the burden remains on you, the proponent of a position - namely, that the F5 system was based on effort - to provide proof that it was. You can't, unless of course you're privy to the internal ticketing process during those past sales, which means, you should probably stop advancing political arguments based on things you cannot prove.
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2
2018-06-18 London 1
2018-08-18 Wrigley 1
2018-08-20 Wrigley 2
2022-09-16 Nashville
2023-08-31 St. Paul
2023-09-02 St. Paul
2023-09-05 Chicago 1
SHOW COUNT: (149) 1990's=3, 2000's=53, 2010/20's=89, US=109, CAN=15, Europe=19 ,New Zealand=2, Australia=2
Mexico=1, Colombia=1
Upcoming: Sacramento, Vegas x2, Manchester, London, Chicago x2, NYC x2, Fenway x2, Aucklandx2, Gold Coast, Melbournex2
On big shows more people were shut out of ticket sales than who actually made it through. Skill and effort played absolutely no part in getting tickets, only persistence and luck - many members who missed out tried every bit as hard as those who got tickets. The user experience was terrible. Having to spend hours watching your browser time out and the cart fail is unacceptable. If you think you had some kind of magical system then you are seriously deluded. Sure you can optimise your chances with some careful maintenance of your browser and hitting the right links, but that does not guarantee success.
I have only missed out on tickets to one show (MSG2) through hitting F5 and made it to some pretty amazing shows, but those couple of hours were shithouse and the source of constant bitching on here. It was a classic clusterfuck which not only cause great angst among members, but also countless headaches, costs and anxiety to the poor people trying to keep the site up and store open. It had to end.
Now the system is fair - all members get an equal chance to go to the shows they want.
It appears this is the system they've settled on, a system akin to the early 10 Club ticket system. I like it and I'm, sure, I'm going to miss out on tickets to certain shows from time to time, but fuck it, I'll find one somewhere - and probably a 10c spare. And for the times I have to pay a bit extra from a reseller, too bad, it's still better than wasting a whole lot of time in the F5 lottery.
I think there are somethings that could probably be improved, like:
Giving members priority on their home town/regional shows
A multiple show ticket for those who take in the entire tour or certain legs.
Waitlist - where people unable to use their tickets could return them to be issued to the person next on the list
A plus one register where people could list spare singles and be linked up with those looking for singles from the wait list
Within the confines of the new system, some pretty cool things could be done with the resulting databases of ticket requests. Wouldn't it be far more productive to use the passion and energy people have towards refining the new system so it better suits everyone's needs rather than bloody mindedly call for a return to a system that was broken, unfair and toxic to the 10 Club Brand. If your changes have improved - great - if they have dropped - stiff shit - that's the way things go when fairness is the rule - we all have an equal chance now.
No member is any more or less entitled to tickets than any other. I think people need to think about that for a second.
I don't agree that the new system allows all members to get an equal chance to go to the shows they want. The new "priority" system will prevent that. Members will need to be selective about which shows they select as first priority as in many cases, the second priority shows will be sold out.
However, the new system, in theory, will put 10c tickets in the hands of MORE members. And Id be willing to bet that is the parameter the band established when they went about revising the system.
It will most likely mean I score 10c tickets to less shows. Big deal. I will probably get more than one show, like they did it in the early days, but less than the multiple shows Ive enjoyed during the past tours. I am OK with that. It works. I send an email and find out later if I got tickets. What could be easier for me? Nothing.
I'm loving the new lottery. And for a larger tour it will be even better.
1000 pairs 1000 fans want them all score no matter the method
1000 pairs 100.000 want them 1 of 100 fans will score only no matter the method..
lottery fast,easy ,fair,,,..took the "power" from fans hands...
not the same fans now always score...
Gracias 10c
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
1998 - West Palm Beach 1
2000 - West Palm Beach 1&2
2003 - WPB,Tampa,Atlanta,Camden 1&2,MSG 1&2, Boston 3,Hershey Park
2004 - Asheville, Kissimmee
2008 - West Palm Beach,Tampa,Columbia,Virginia Beach, Mansfield 1&2
2010 - Hartford,Boston,Newark, MSG 1&2
2011 - PJ20 1&2, Costa Rica
2013 - Wrigley,Brooklyn 1&2,Seattle
2014 - Denver,Mountain View 1&2
2015 - Bogata, Mexico City
2016 - Ft Lauderdale,Miami,Tampa,NYC 1&2,Telluride,Fenway 1&2,Wrigley 1&2
Because you did. And there was nothing wrong with that.
No matter what dimi says
So did I
That's what makes the argument so moot. Some people feel better off on the f5 method, and some people feel better of with the lottery. We will always argue for the system we think works best for us
When you come down to it, the exact same number of fan members get tickets, so I do try to shrug it off.
The problem isn't the allocation method, its the lack of shows and lack of tickets. PJ does tour very much anymore so alot of people have gone mobile to see their favorite band. When PJ keeps tours small it doesn't matter where they play, because the people come to them.
Secondly Ticketing Agencies continue to make it harder for fan clubs to get tickets. IE the 10c probably gets much smaller allocations than they used too. Smaller tour/Less ticket.
The Real Solution: PJ Needs to Tour
This is all true except what annoys me is not having access to more than one show with 10C in the same market. Yes, it means that tickets will be spread out among more fans and that's not a bad thing but I'm used to having great tix for multiple shows in my area. That was the fun of it. Having a group of friends with 10C tickets and hitting the road together. That will never happen again. And yes, under the old system we all scored tickets so it's complete bs to claim that was luck. Those days were so much fun but sadly they're gone as most of us will get shut out and may not want to shell out for tickets from a third party for shitty seats.
there are companies out there that can handle ticket sales without crashing
You're opening up another can of worms there, bro. People don't like the idea of outsourcing 10C.
What are you doing up anyway? Isn't it past your bedtime? Unless you're working on securing that date for me. Any pictures of this chick by the way? Do I need to send you a link for Taylor Swift so you don't fuck this up?
i need to text her and see what she's been up to. we're suppose to do bong rips one of these days
I don't know if this is true. Depending on the market(s), I don't foresee having trouble getting tickets to all the shows.
For this very limited run of shows (Wrigley and London), It has been almost an embarrassment of riches for my two Pearl Jam Ten club buddies who I travel to all the shows together.
We all put in for the London/Wrigley pre-sale. One of us got tickets to Wrigley. The other guy got a single from the Tickemaster (or whomever) in the general sale. I then put in for the Wrigley 2nd chance sale and got a pair, and my other two travelling buds are going. That is five of us with no problems going to this great show.
For London, I got a single from the public sale, my buddy got an extra from another ten club fan, and then two of us just won the London 2nd chance sale.
Being a part of this community means never having to buy scalper tickets. I've acquired or traded, or sold at face value dozens of tickets to all the shows I've ever wanted to get into.
Hit the Euro tour after my wife gave me the Hall Pass, but didn't anticipate it. Me and three of my friends decided to go. We easily secured for face value tickets to Oslo, Norway, and Sweden. Then my one friend couldn't go and hooked up three fans to the shows he was out of.
This is the story all the time on these boards.
I love this community.
I'm down with that. Nice work
no one has any advantage now..
the only advantage you have is the same as the rest...need to be current memebr to have a shot..
your money is the same money rest of the fans..
no faster internet,no multiple bronwzers open,no better rooter,no better free time for job ,no need to change yout whole day to buy tickets,no links that lead you to the buy button ticket,no links to secure tickets already your shoping card and all u need to do is to check out,no links lead directly to the check out page,no links to lead you to have in your card multiple shows tickets the same time..nada..end,caput....
same money paid for memebership,same chances..
all in the bucket ,the lucky wins...
end of story..
the f5 method now is the story we will tell to our kids inthe years will follow..you know..
stories from the past...
thank you 10c... now some will feel how is to play the game 50% -50%..and not 100%-0% always for them..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
give me a fuck yeah for Chicago !!!
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
FUCK YEAH!
I'll give a fuck yeah to London and Wrigley!!! :thumbup: