So instead of refreshing the page with all the ticket options for all the shows.... it would be the specific page the show will be on.... where the buy button would appear.
if you dont know/nobody knows and once it opens up and you see that extra step and the specific URL, you cut and paste that in each tab so you skip the step from then on.
so youre refreshing all the tickets.
Then you eventually see your show and you click on it. But get frozen out. You see that specific URL, and you use that one from now on...
if you dont know/nobody knows and once it opens up and you see that extra step and the specific URL, you cut and paste that in each tab so you skip the step from then on.
so youre refreshing all the tickets.
Then you eventually see your show and you click on it. But get frozen out. You see that specific URL, and you use that one from now on...
There is a chrome plugin I use if I'm waiting for a site to refresh - Auto Refresh Plus.
Well, there you have it. Problem I see with this is when does it stop? What if you get through and it continues to refresh?
You stop auto refresh when it hits the page you want. I've never used it for tickets - although I used it to keep an eye on a poster sale, it is just something I use as part of my work when building websites and keeping an eye on things and only set it at long refresh intervals.
But as this is just the consumer level system, I imagine plenty would use purpose build systems with a similar core to hit ticket windows. There is a tool for everything to take the human component out - or minimize it - if you know that and where to look.
One way is by using multiple browsers and multiple platforms - pc, tablet, phone, thus increasing the number of connections and chances you have. You could also run a bot or even a quick auto refresh plugin so you don't even have to hit f5. You could use a server based solution to take your web browser out of the loop entirely.
Really? Run a bot? A server based solution...?
I highly doubt even 1% of Ten Club fans a) even know what you're talking about and b) were doing any of that shit. And even if they were, they were worse than cheaters, they were idiots because it wasn't even necessary.
That is an extremely generic description that reads like you were just throwing things out to see what sticks. I'm asking for the method that some people on here claim they have been told first hand yet never used because of their superior moral compass.
Also, citing "multiple browsers" as an example of cheating is ridiculous and goes further to prove the entire theory is a red herring.
I wasn't making a moral stand on the ethics of these techniques. I'm not buying into the whole cheating v non cheating or 'gaining advantage 'thing. I don't see them as 'cheating', it is just knowing how to maximise your connections to the store.
I was just articulating some of the things you could to to give yourself an advantage when trying to ensure you get a connection to the store or sales, not just 10c sales. And yes, I'd be surprised if even 1% even know what a bot is let alone how to set it up or use it or how to set up server level scripts, again, just speaking in generalities.
However, If I and a heap of other people are using similar techniques from hitting F5 over and over up, we're all placing many times the load on the server as we should be using one browser (what many probably consider "non-cheating"), we are making it harder for other people by being a big part of why the site bogs down and crashes under the load. If in some dream world everyone just logged in once, did not hit refresh and was patient, the site would probably cope, but that's not going to happen any time soon.
To me cheating would be server level things and bots, which is why we have recapthca and other verification tools.
One way is by using multiple browsers and multiple platforms - pc, tablet, phone, thus increasing the number of connections and chances you have. You could also run a bot or even a quick auto refresh plugin so you don't even have to hit f5. You could use a server based solution to take your web browser out of the loop entirely.
Really? Run a bot? A server based solution...?
I highly doubt even 1% of Ten Club fans a) even know what you're talking about and b) were doing any of that shit. And even if they were, they were worse than cheaters, they were idiots because it wasn't even necessary.
That is an extremely generic description that reads like you were just throwing things out to see what sticks. I'm asking for the method that some people on here claim they have been told first hand yet never used because of their superior moral compass.
Also, citing "multiple browsers" as an example of cheating is ridiculous and goes further to prove the entire theory is a red herring.
I wasn't making a moral stand on the ethics of these techniques. I'm not buying into the whole cheating v non cheating or 'gaining advantage 'thing. I don't see them as 'cheating', it is just knowing how to maximise your connections to the store.
I was just articulating some of the things you could to to give yourself an advantage when trying to ensure you get a connection to the store or sales, not just 10c sales. And yes, I'd be surprised if even 1% even know what a bot is let alone how to set it up or use it or how to set up server level scripts, again, just speaking in generalities.
However, If I and a heap of other people are using similar techniques from hitting F5 over and over up, we're all placing many times the load on the server as we should be using one browser (what many probably consider "non-cheating"), we are making it harder for other people by being a big part of why the site bogs down and crashes under the load. If in some dream world everyone just logged in once, did not hit refresh and was patient, the site would probably cope, but that's not going to happen any time soon.
To me cheating would be server level things and bots, which is why we have recapthca and other verification tools.
Ok, cool. I agree with all that. Didn't mean to come down too hard on what you originally wrote by the way.
However, If I and a heap of other people are using similar techniques from hitting F5 over and over up, we're all placing many times the load on the server as we should be using one browser (what many probably consider "non-cheating"), we are making it harder for other people by being a big part of why the site bogs down and crashes under the load. If in some dream world everyone just logged in once, did not hit refresh and was patient, the site would probably cope, but that's not going to happen any time soon.
Exactly what I meant by saying it is essentially a DD0s attack. Same thing hackers do to take down sites.
However, If I and a heap of other people are using similar techniques from hitting F5 over and over up, we're all placing many times the load on the server as we should be using one browser (what many probably consider "non-cheating"), we are making it harder for other people by being a big part of why the site bogs down and crashes under the load. If in some dream world everyone just logged in once, did not hit refresh and was patient, the site would probably cope, but that's not going to happen any time soon.
Exactly what I meant by saying it is essentially a DD0s attack. Same thing hackers do to take down sites.
Yes, I've said this a number of times - I sometimes have to deal with them against sites I host. Club members are their own worst enemy when it comes to this. Unknowingly 'sabotaging' their own ticket sales.
Ok, cool. I agree with all that. Didn't mean to come down too hard on what you originally wrote by the way.
All good mate, we all speak with passion, doesn't imply a personal attack - I didn't take it this way and my original post did appear to call these things 'cheating' which was not my intent.
I'm a fan of the lottery, as I've discussed in other threads. There were definitely back doors with the old system, and the playing field needed to be leveled. I wouldn't go as far as to call it "cheating", but I certainly wouldn't call it "fair". I'm sure there were several, but the one I was told of worked like this:
Every product in the old cart system had a unique product id and a separate "hidden id" associated with it.
The product id was on the page, but you had to view the page source to see the hidden id. It was in a line of code that looked like this, where xxxx was the number:
<input type="hidden" name="unitId" value="xxxx"/>
Now, every buy button was just an image with a add-to-cart link associated with it. That link was in the form, where xxxx was the product's hidden id (NOT the product id):
So all people had to do was grab the hidden id once they saw the buy button the first time, make a quick bookmark in the toolbar using the above link, and then click it until the tickets were added to the cart.
This meant that people using this method were not refreshing anything - no F5 ever, no browser maximization. Guaranteed results.
They just were constantly clicking a BUY button of their own creation. No race to refresh, then click BUY, then pray. If a show was "temporarily out of stock" people doing this were guaranteed to get the first tickets put back into the system. Not at all fair, obviously.
Thankfully, they have changed their cart system, and closed the back doors. And the lottery closes them for good. I promise you scalpers are in the club, and are WAY more likely to know about and employ these methods than your average fan.
I would also offer a counter-argument to the claim that because it's easy more people will enter and therefore everyone's odds are worse. While this is absolutely true for a 1 or 2 show sale like London/Chicago, I think this won't be a real issue with a more extended tour, assuming they all go on "sale" at once.
For one, you have to pony up in advance for every show you enter, so are more people than usual really going to enter for like 10 shows when they have to put a $1600 hold on their cards/bank accounts in order to do so? I don't see it happening.
It also seems pretty clear that you only have a realistic shot at getting your 1st choice. So on a show-by-show basis you are essentially only competing against the people who have also listed that show as their 1st choice.
In the old system, sale times were staggered and people would hop around and everyone would be in the scrum for every show. I actually think come tour time your odds will improve for your 1st choice, because people will really have to think and hedge their bets. Your odds will be terrible for 2nd choice, and I would say no shot for 3rd choice and below.
The con of this is that obviously you will only get lucky for one or two shows max per tour. I think the days of getting 10c tickets to every show are gone.
a potential benefit is that your seats should improve, because the super hard core old fans won't be able to score their 10c tix to every show.
All conjecture of course, but I don't really think the new system hurts your odds in a multi-show lottery. I think it helps you get the ONE show you really want...
Being new to 10C and this being the first time I have entered the lottery, I think it was great. What I don't like is that "local" ChiTown people did not get them. That is just wrong. Locals should get first. Within a 100 mile radius too.
Just my 2cents.
Being new to 10C and this being the first time I have entered the lottery, I think it was great. What I don't like is that "local" ChiTown people did not get them. That is just wrong. Locals should get first. Within a 100 mile radius too.
Just my 2cents.
Being new to 10C and this being the first time I have entered the lottery, I think it was great. What I don't like is that "local" ChiTown people did not get them. That is just wrong. Locals should get first. Within a 100 mile radius too.
Just my 2cents.
Thank you...and good nite.
Welcome to the real world.
Hopefully PJ will read these forums and act/react. I'm stoked to go to a show, but there are people who are mad. Granted you can't please everyone...
Being new to 10C and this being the first time I have entered the lottery, I think it was great. What I don't like is that "local" ChiTown people did not get them. That is just wrong. Locals should get first. Within a 100 mile radius too.
Just my 2cents.
Thank you...and good nite.
Welcome to the real world.
Hopefully PJ will read these forums and act/react. \.
This is getting exhausting, not because responding to you is difficult, it’s because I’m extremely busy and no matter how well thought out an argument I make, you will just ignore it and veer towards irrelevant points and personal attacks. Yet I take the time to address nearly every aspect of your posts. In my last post alone you didn’t address most of it, you just honed in on one part. You have completely derailed our discussion and the thread. The only thing close to a discussion of the ticket system in your last post is your talk of cheating, which is F5 specific. So I suggest you go back to my previous post and address my on topic points about the new lottery system, or just stop. But I'm guessing you will just want to respond to this thread and take the post even further off course. Prove me right.
Wife beating? Credit card theft? Insulting my English? What you are doing is not debating.
Hey look, you proved me right! You continued to take the thread further off course, while almost completely ignoring the content of my post.
Wow, so the guy who has been ducking the debate, and got called out on it, decided his only option was to project his behaviors on me! Did you skip the very first paragraph of my post where I called you out for not debating? Oh, and FYI..I guess you've never heard of analogies, they can be used to make points. If you were actually trying to follow the topic, you'd understand why they were relevant to the debate. I'll take this as you throwing in the towel. Good day.
The term "cheating" is tossed around all too easily IMO.
Optimizing one's browser is not cheating the system. Running CCleaner on one's machine is not cheating. Copying & pasting the secure URL for the Tickets section in the Goods shop into one's browser is not cheating.
For the vast majority that was the extent of their "advantage".
Agree 100%. Let's face it, if you earned a slight advantage over someone, they got pissed and called you a cheater. People should be allowed to figure out a method that gives them a better chance. Was it cheating back in the day when you knew of a small ticketmaster outlet that no went to, that got you great seats because there was no line?
I'm a fan of the lottery, as I've discussed in other threads. There were definitely back doors with the old system, and the playing field needed to be leveled. I wouldn't go as far as to call it "cheating", but I certainly wouldn't call it "fair".
Thankfully, they have changed their cart system, and closed the back doors. And the lottery closes them for good. I promise you scalpers are in the club, and are WAY more likely to know about and employ these methods than your average fan.
I didn't know all that stuff and I still got tickets 100% of the time, simply by optimizing what I was doing. I studied the system and looked for advantages, I put in the time hitting F5 until I got the tickets I wanted. Everyone had the exact same opportunity to do the same. Cheating would be if someone got a special link from a buddy at the 10C, and used it to buy tickets the day before we could. Simply earning a slight advantage over your competitors is not cheating. In professional sports, are you a fan of every player getting the same time in the weight room, and every team getting exactly the same practice time? Wouldn't that "level the playing field"?
I see no reason why a scalper would be more likely to employ these methods. In fact, it's logical that a fan who just wanted the tickets for them self would have more motivation to learn and use these methods.
I would also offer a counter-argument to the claim that because it's easy more people will enter and therefore everyone's odds are worse. While this is absolutely true for a 1 or 2 show sale like London/Chicago, I think this won't be a real issue with a more extended tour, assuming they all go on "sale" at once.
The really big shows, like MSG will be much harder to get no matter how many stops are on the tour. The smaller shows were never that big in demand, and generally anyone who wanted them got them. So your point is moot.
Rock Werchter 4 july - 2010, Arras 3 july - 2010, Berlin Wuhlheide - June 30, 2010, Odyssey arena Belfast - 23 june 2010, O2 arena Dublin - june 22 2010, O2 arena London - Aug 18, 2009, Manchester Evening News Arena - Aug 17, 2009, Berlin Wuhlheide - Aug 15, 2009, Copenhagen 2007-06-26 Forum, London 2007-06-18 Wembley Arena, Prague 2006-09-22 Sazka Arena, Denmark 2000-06-30 Roskilde Festival, Stockholm on August 12th Mirrorball tour with Neil Young, Oslo 1993-06-27 Isle of Calf Festival(Kalvoya), Oslo Secret Club Concert 1993-06-26 Sentrum Scene
No one has mentioned EV's 2011 early summer tour. That was another debacle for this website. They had to reschedule the presale through alternate websites beause this site overloaded & crashed. That ended up working in my favor, as I selected pit seats at the Bushnell in Hartford, and got second row! Not too long after that, the Canada 2011 presale had the same results. PJ had to work with TM, or in Montreal's case, Evenko was the ticket company.
I don't know what happened with PJ20, I did not try for tickets, but anyone saying PJ20 was the only problem is misinformed.
I like the lottery because I can not sit at work and ignore my responsibilities. Some people think that because they CAN put the time in, they are more deserving of the tickets, or somehow earned them. That's their opinion, and I respect it. Like other people have mentioned, SCALPERS have time to sit at home all day hitting refresh. Maybe this lottery is to combat them also.
Maybe PJ doesn't give a $hit about fairness. Maybe they just want to be able to facilitate the 10c presale themselves without involving other companies.
As previous people have mentioned, the lottery system is new, let's see it in action for a tour.
This is getting exhausting, not because responding to you is difficult, it’s because I’m extremely busy and no matter how well thought out an argument I make, you will just ignore it and veer towards irrelevant points and personal attacks. Yet I take the time to address nearly every aspect of your posts. In my last post alone you didn’t address most of it, you just honed in on one part. You have completely derailed our discussion and the thread. The only thing close to a discussion of the ticket system in your last post is your talk of cheating, which is F5 specific. So I suggest you go back to my previous post and address my on topic points about the new lottery system, or just stop. But I'm guessing you will just want to respond to this thread and take the post even further off course. Prove me right.
Wife beating? Credit card theft? Insulting my English? What you are doing is not debating.
Hey look, you proved me right! You continued to take the thread further off course, while almost completely ignoring the content of my post.
Wow, so the guy who has been ducking the debate, and got called out on it, decided his only option was to project his behaviors on me! Did you skip the very first paragraph of my post where I called you out for not debating? Oh, and FYI..I guess you've never heard of analogies, they can be used to make points. If you were actually trying to follow the topic, you'd understand why they were relevant to the debate. I'll take this as you throwing in the towel. Good day.
No, I have projected nothing on you. What you were doing was not debate. You chose to make “analogies” about wife beating and credit card theft and attack my English in a thread about the ticket lottery. That kind of behavior is not debating an issue. Far from it. You claimed in an earlier attack that I must live in a different reality than you. If you truly believe that comparing domestic violence to a concert ticket lottery is appropriate then you may be right. We do live in different realities.
This will be my last response to you in this thread. Feel free to take whatever venomous shot you wish as a last word and then claim that as “victory”. I have no desire to continue this unpleasant discussion and further derail what has proven to be an interesting and informative thread.
I didn't know all that stuff and I still got tickets 100% of the time, simply by optimizing what I was doing. I studied the system and looked for advantages, I put in the time hitting F5 until I got the tickets I wanted. Everyone had the exact same opportunity to do the same. Cheating would be if someone got a special link from a buddy at the 10C, and used it to buy tickets the day before we could. Simply earning a slight advantage over your competitors is not cheating. In professional sports, are you a fan of every player getting the same time in the weight room, and every team getting exactly the same practice time? Wouldn't that "level the playing field"?
Yeah, there were many roads to Rome. Lots of different ways to ensure tickets...some widely known, some not. I also agree that none of that was "cheating", just using the tools provided. But I also can see why 10c wanted to close things up...trying to equate 10c ticket benefits to professional sports or, say, college admissions is a just *bit* of a reach and not at all analogous, but that's well trodden ground.
I see no reason why a scalper would be more likely to employ these methods. In fact, it's logical that a fan who just wanted the tickets for them self would have more motivation to learn and use these methods.
What I mean is they are more likely to have discovered the back door, guaranteed methods of securing tickets because it is their business to do such things. I'm not talking about the browser optimization type methods...I mean the more hack-y methods which isn't something the average fan can just learn. Most aren't even aware those methods existed, but scalpers will have known for sure. Like I said, it's their business.
Now they are stuck in the lottery with you and me, where they may or may not get tickets. Seems like a good thing.
The really big shows, like MSG will be much harder to get no matter how many stops are on the tour. The smaller shows were never that big in demand, and generally anyone who wanted them got them. So your point is moot.
You are right that MSG is always going to be the hardest ticket to get of any normal tour, and it will always be a scrum. But consider this very realistic scenario:
Pearl Jam announces an East Coast tour - 1 show in VA Beach, 1 show in DC, 2 shows in Philly, 2 shows in Boston, and 2 shows in NYC. All of these shows except VA Beach are high demand.
Under the old system, if you wanted to get 10c tickets to every single show this could be done by employing any number of the methods we've been discussing. Every person who wanted in was competing with every other person for every single show.
With the lottery system, you are only competing for your 1st choice against other people who have selected that same exact show as their 1st choice. Inevitably this will be a smaller pool of people. NYC is the biggest market, but those shows pull in people who are travelling to see many shows. The lottery makes it much more a game of strategy.
Which show do you select as your first choice? In the new system you must choose wisely, because with an East Coast tour, people are likely ONLY to have a shot at tickets with their first choice.
So if you select Boston 2 as your first choice show, you are only competing against people who selected Boston 2 as their first choice, a much smaller pool of people than going against every 10c member who wants to go to Boston 2.
There are some pros but also cons with this new system, would have to say I over all think its a bunk idea.
1996: Augusta
1998: Montreal, Mansfield I&II
2000: Mansfield I&II, Montreal
2003: Las Vegas, Toronto, Montreal, Mansfield I&III
2005: Montreal, Ottawa, Quebec
2006: Albany, Hartford, Boston I&II
2007: Lollapalooza
2008: Bonnaroo, Camden I&II, Hartford, Mansfield I&II
2009: Philadelphia III&IV
2010: Hartford, Boston, New York City II
2011: Alpine Valley I&II
2013: Buffalo, Worcester I&II, Hartford, Los Angeles I&II
2014: Tulsa, Lincoln
2016: New York City I&II, Quebec City, Boston I&II, Chicago I&II 2017: New York 2018: Seattle I&II, Boston I&II
Hate the lottery, but if it HAS to stay, then get rid of the whole priority thing. Make it an equal lottery shot for every single show. If you want to talk "fairness", then that would be the fairest way. If you want to go to 1 show or 20 shows, you'd have the exact same chance as everyone else for any show you wanted to go to. The priority system really is an injustice to the areas of the country with larger fan pockets such as the Northeast. For example, the Boston and MSG shows would have a much greater pool of people competing for the tickets than say Kansas City or Buffalo. It's almost like wasting your 1st priority choice on one of the big shows since it will be a MUCH harder ticket to get via the lottery, and now you have to rely on your 2nd or 3rd choice for some other show which is only the scraps left after the first choicers. If you had an equal shot to every show you would have a much better chance at securing tickets. Say they announced 2 shows in Boston, 1 in Hartford, and 2 in New York as well as 20 other cities, and you wanted to go to all 5 of those shows plus 1 or 2 somewhere else. In a priority system, you would be very lucky to get even a SINGLE one of those northeast shows as your 1st priority, but you'd have a much better shot with a 1st priority at some random place. More than likely, you're not going to get a 2nd or 3rd priority ticket to anywhere in the northeast, but by using your 1st priority in the northeast it gives you your WORST chance at actually winning the lottery. Without a priority system, anyone can request any show that they want without the worry of THAT choice effecting the chances at obtaining any tickets at all for the whole tour.
1994 Boston 1998 Mansfield 2000 Atlanta & Mansfield 2003 Mansfield (X2) 2004 Boston 2006 Chicago & Boston (x2) 2008 Mansfield (x2) 2009 Chicago 2010 Buffalo & Boston 2011 Toronto 2012 Amsterdam 2013 Wrigley, Worcerster (x2), Philly, & Hartford 2014 Memphis, Moline, Denver 2016 Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Tampa, Hampton, Philly, Fenway (x2), Wrigley Monday 2018 Wrigley (x2), Fenway (x2) 2022 MSG. Nashville
No, I have projected nothing on you. What you were doing was not debate. You chose to make “analogies” about wife beating and credit card theft and attack my English in a thread about the ticket lottery. That kind of behavior is not debating an issue. Far from it. You claimed in an earlier attack that I must live in a different reality than you. If you truly believe that comparing domestic violence to a concert ticket lottery is appropriate then you may be right. We do live in different realities.
This will be my last response to you in this thread. Feel free to take whatever venomous shot you wish as a last word and then claim that as “victory”. I have no desire to continue this unpleasant discussion and further derail what has proven to be an interesting and informative thread.
Wow, even in your "last post" you still have avoided the discussion at hand, and continued to derail the thread.
I'm sure it's getting tough for you to think of ways to continually derail the topic, so you've probably picked a good time to run away with your tail between your legs.
Yeah, there were many roads to Rome. Lots of different ways to ensure tickets...some widely known, some not. I also agree that none of that was "cheating", just using the tools provided. But I also can see why 10c wanted to close things up...trying to equate 10c ticket benefits to professional sports or, say, college admissions is a just *bit* of a reach and not at all analogous, but that's well trodden ground.
Good point, I'm sure there were some methods still unknown to us. Equating an earned ticket buying advantage to any other earned advantage is completely analogous. Effort should always be rewarded... Whether that effort is learning the F5 system, practicing a sport, or studying.
What I mean is they are more likely to have discovered the back door, guaranteed methods of securing tickets because it is their business to do such things. I'm not talking about the browser optimization type methods...I mean the more hack-y methods which isn't something the average fan can just learn. Most aren't even aware those methods existed, but scalpers will have known for sure. Like I said, it's their business.
Now they are stuck in the lottery with you and me, where they may or may not get tickets. Seems like a good thing.
I see your point, it’s highly possible that you are correct due to their experience. I was thinking of it from a desire point of view, would a scalper (someone who by definition is not a very ambitious person) put in the effort to learn the backdoor that a rabid fan would? I think this barrier of entry kept scalpers out of the F5 system, and will invite them in to the lottery.
You are right that MSG is always going to be the hardest ticket to get of any normal tour, and it will always be a scrum. But consider this very realistic scenario:
Pearl Jam announces an East Coast tour - 1 show in VA Beach, 1 show in DC, 2 shows in Philly, 2 shows in Boston, and 2 shows in NYC. All of these shows except VA Beach are high demand.
Under the old system, if you wanted to get 10c tickets to every single show this could be done by employing any number of the methods we've been discussing. Every person who wanted in was competing with every other person for every single show.
With the lottery system, you are only competing for your 1st choice against other people who have selected that same exact show as their 1st choice. Inevitably this will be a smaller pool of people. NYC is the biggest market, but those shows pull in people who are travelling to see many shows. The lottery makes it much more a game of strategy.
Which show do you select as your first choice? In the new system you must choose wisely, because with an East Coast tour, people are likely ONLY to have a shot at tickets with their first choice.
So if you select Boston 2 as your first choice show, you are only competing against people who selected Boston 2 as their first choice, a much smaller pool of people than going against every 10c member who wants to go to Boston 2.
In the specific situation you describe. Most of the shows will be so popular that they will all be in high enough demand that you will be lucky to be chosen for your first choice. People will put thought in to their choice and it will level the load. I think all "big" shows will be gone with first choices. You have nearly no shot at your second choices. So all of your eggs are in one basket for 10C tickets. In the old system, even a 25% success rate with F5 would score you 10C tickets to 2/8 shows.
People always say stuff like "ticket buying shouldn't take effort". It's only a matter of time before we have, "This isn't chess, ticket buying shouldn't take strategy".
Not one person who claims the old way (e.g. the F5 method) is better than a lottery has provided a solid, irrefutable link that their "effort" during that ticket buying process resulted in tickets. Even more, the F5 defenders can't provide that evidence, because none of us have access to the internal processes that occurred during those sales! So if we can't be sure that the F5 method wasn't also luck, then how can anyone persist in saying it's better than the lottery?
I think some people are using this issue - a rock band's fan club ticketing policy, mind you - as a way to grind their own political ax.
Such political extrapolation, without evidence that the F5 method rewarded your effort, is downright ridiculous.
1998-06-30 Minneapolis
2003-06-16 St. Paul
2006-06-26 St. Paul
2007-08-05 Chicago
2009-08-23 Chicago
2009-08-28 San Francisco
2010-05-01 NOLA (Jazz Fest)
2011-07-02 EV Minneapolis
2011-09-03 PJ20
2011-09-04 PJ20
2011-09-17 Winnipeg
2012-06-26 Amsterdam
2012-06-27 Amsterdam
2013-07-19 Wrigley
2013-11-21 San Diego
2013-11-23 Los Angeles
2013-11-24 Los Angeles
2014-07-08 Leeds, UK
2014-07-11 Milton Keynes, UK
2014-10-09 Lincoln
2014-10-19 St. Paul
2014-10-20 Milwaukee
2016-08-20 Wrigley 1
2016-08-22 Wrigley 2 2018-06-18 London 1 2018-08-18 Wrigley 1 2018-08-20 Wrigley 2 2022-09-16 Nashville 2023-08-31 St. Paul 2023-09-02 St. Paul 2023-09-05 Chicago 1
Not one person who claims the old way (e.g. the F5 method) is better than a lottery has provided a solid, irrefutable link that their "effort" during that ticket buying process resulted in tickets. Even more, the F5 defenders can't provide that evidence, because none of us have access to the internal processes that occurred during those sales! So if we can't be sure that the F5 method wasn't also luck, then how can anyone persist in saying it's better than the lottery?
I think some people are using this issue - a rock band's fan club ticketing policy, mind you - as a way to grind their own political ax.
Such political extrapolation, without evidence that the F5 method rewarded your effort, is downright ridiculous.
Dude, you and I have been back and forth with this countless times. I know you're coming from an good place with your argument but I don't know what "proof" you're looking for exactly. I got tickets for every show I wanted for years. There is no way I was just lucky. I am not the only one with this experience either. Plenty of people have testified to the same experience. Why can't you just accept that?
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So instead of refreshing the page with all the ticket options for all the shows.... it would be the specific page the show will be on.... where the buy button would appear.
so say its http://pearljam.com/goods/index.tickets for the ticket page, there would be a sequence and someone would figure out http://pearljam.com/goods/index.tickets/3456 was the particular show.
Of course it could backfire if they are wrong.
it wouldnt be a secret either. People would post that info here.
forgot to add,
if you dont know/nobody knows and once it opens up and you see that extra step and the specific URL, you cut and paste that in each tab so you skip the step from then on.
so youre refreshing all the tickets.
Then you eventually see your show and you click on it. But get frozen out. You see that specific URL, and you use that one from now on...
Got it. Thanks.
You stop auto refresh when it hits the page you want. I've never used it for tickets - although I used it to keep an eye on a poster sale, it is just something I use as part of my work when building websites and keeping an eye on things and only set it at long refresh intervals.
But as this is just the consumer level system, I imagine plenty would use purpose build systems with a similar core to hit ticket windows. There is a tool for everything to take the human component out - or minimize it - if you know that and where to look.
I wasn't making a moral stand on the ethics of these techniques. I'm not buying into the whole cheating v non cheating or 'gaining advantage 'thing. I don't see them as 'cheating', it is just knowing how to maximise your connections to the store.
I was just articulating some of the things you could to to give yourself an advantage when trying to ensure you get a connection to the store or sales, not just 10c sales. And yes, I'd be surprised if even 1% even know what a bot is let alone how to set it up or use it or how to set up server level scripts, again, just speaking in generalities.
However, If I and a heap of other people are using similar techniques from hitting F5 over and over up, we're all placing many times the load on the server as we should be using one browser (what many probably consider "non-cheating"), we are making it harder for other people by being a big part of why the site bogs down and crashes under the load. If in some dream world everyone just logged in once, did not hit refresh and was patient, the site would probably cope, but that's not going to happen any time soon.
To me cheating would be server level things and bots, which is why we have recapthca and other verification tools.
Ok, cool. I agree with all that. Didn't mean to come down too hard on what you originally wrote by the way.
Exactly what I meant by saying it is essentially a DD0s attack. Same thing hackers do to take down sites.
Yes, I've said this a number of times - I sometimes have to deal with them against sites I host. Club members are their own worst enemy when it comes to this. Unknowingly 'sabotaging' their own ticket sales.
All good mate, we all speak with passion, doesn't imply a personal attack - I didn't take it this way and my original post did appear to call these things 'cheating' which was not my intent.
Every product in the old cart system had a unique product id and a separate "hidden id" associated with it.
The product id was on the page, but you had to view the page source to see the hidden id. It was in a line of code that looked like this, where xxxx was the number:
<input type="hidden" name="unitId" value="xxxx"/>
Now, every buy button was just an image with a add-to-cart link associated with it. That link was in the form, where xxxx was the product's hidden id (NOT the product id):
https://secure.pearljam.com/store/buy.s ... nitId=xxxx
So all people had to do was grab the hidden id once they saw the buy button the first time, make a quick bookmark in the toolbar using the above link, and then click it until the tickets were added to the cart.
This meant that people using this method were not refreshing anything - no F5 ever, no browser maximization. Guaranteed results.
They just were constantly clicking a BUY button of their own creation. No race to refresh, then click BUY, then pray. If a show was "temporarily out of stock" people doing this were guaranteed to get the first tickets put back into the system. Not at all fair, obviously.
Thankfully, they have changed their cart system, and closed the back doors. And the lottery closes them for good. I promise you scalpers are in the club, and are WAY more likely to know about and employ these methods than your average fan.
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For one, you have to pony up in advance for every show you enter, so are more people than usual really going to enter for like 10 shows when they have to put a $1600 hold on their cards/bank accounts in order to do so? I don't see it happening.
It also seems pretty clear that you only have a realistic shot at getting your 1st choice. So on a show-by-show basis you are essentially only competing against the people who have also listed that show as their 1st choice.
In the old system, sale times were staggered and people would hop around and everyone would be in the scrum for every show. I actually think come tour time your odds will improve for your 1st choice, because people will really have to think and hedge their bets. Your odds will be terrible for 2nd choice, and I would say no shot for 3rd choice and below.
The con of this is that obviously you will only get lucky for one or two shows max per tour. I think the days of getting 10c tickets to every show are gone.
a potential benefit is that your seats should improve, because the super hard core old fans won't be able to score their 10c tix to every show.
All conjecture of course, but I don't really think the new system hurts your odds in a multi-show lottery. I think it helps you get the ONE show you really want...
PM me with any comments or suggestions for the app - or weigh in <a href="http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=167611
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I completely agree with this.
Just my 2cents.
Thank you...and good nite.
Welcome to the real world.
Hopefully PJ will read these forums and act/react. I'm stoked to go to a show, but there are people who are mad. Granted you can't please everyone...
Hey...go easy on 'im. He'll get it soon enough
Hey look, you proved me right! You continued to take the thread further off course, while almost completely ignoring the content of my post.
Wow, so the guy who has been ducking the debate, and got called out on it, decided his only option was to project his behaviors on me! Did you skip the very first paragraph of my post where I called you out for not debating? Oh, and FYI..I guess you've never heard of analogies, they can be used to make points. If you were actually trying to follow the topic, you'd understand why they were relevant to the debate. I'll take this as you throwing in the towel. Good day.
Agree 100%. Let's face it, if you earned a slight advantage over someone, they got pissed and called you a cheater. People should be allowed to figure out a method that gives them a better chance. Was it cheating back in the day when you knew of a small ticketmaster outlet that no went to, that got you great seats because there was no line?
I didn't know all that stuff and I still got tickets 100% of the time, simply by optimizing what I was doing. I studied the system and looked for advantages, I put in the time hitting F5 until I got the tickets I wanted. Everyone had the exact same opportunity to do the same. Cheating would be if someone got a special link from a buddy at the 10C, and used it to buy tickets the day before we could. Simply earning a slight advantage over your competitors is not cheating. In professional sports, are you a fan of every player getting the same time in the weight room, and every team getting exactly the same practice time? Wouldn't that "level the playing field"?
I see no reason why a scalper would be more likely to employ these methods. In fact, it's logical that a fan who just wanted the tickets for them self would have more motivation to learn and use these methods.
The really big shows, like MSG will be much harder to get no matter how many stops are on the tour. The smaller shows were never that big in demand, and generally anyone who wanted them got them. So your point is moot.
I don't know what happened with PJ20, I did not try for tickets, but anyone saying PJ20 was the only problem is misinformed.
I like the lottery because I can not sit at work and ignore my responsibilities. Some people think that because they CAN put the time in, they are more deserving of the tickets, or somehow earned them. That's their opinion, and I respect it. Like other people have mentioned, SCALPERS have time to sit at home all day hitting refresh. Maybe this lottery is to combat them also.
Maybe PJ doesn't give a $hit about fairness. Maybe they just want to be able to facilitate the 10c presale themselves without involving other companies.
As previous people have mentioned, the lottery system is new, let's see it in action for a tour.
No, I have projected nothing on you. What you were doing was not debate. You chose to make “analogies” about wife beating and credit card theft and attack my English in a thread about the ticket lottery. That kind of behavior is not debating an issue. Far from it. You claimed in an earlier attack that I must live in a different reality than you. If you truly believe that comparing domestic violence to a concert ticket lottery is appropriate then you may be right. We do live in different realities.
This will be my last response to you in this thread. Feel free to take whatever venomous shot you wish as a last word and then claim that as “victory”. I have no desire to continue this unpleasant discussion and further derail what has proven to be an interesting and informative thread.
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
Yeah, there were many roads to Rome. Lots of different ways to ensure tickets...some widely known, some not. I also agree that none of that was "cheating", just using the tools provided. But I also can see why 10c wanted to close things up...trying to equate 10c ticket benefits to professional sports or, say, college admissions is a just *bit* of a reach and not at all analogous, but that's well trodden ground.
What I mean is they are more likely to have discovered the back door, guaranteed methods of securing tickets because it is their business to do such things. I'm not talking about the browser optimization type methods...I mean the more hack-y methods which isn't something the average fan can just learn. Most aren't even aware those methods existed, but scalpers will have known for sure. Like I said, it's their business.
Now they are stuck in the lottery with you and me, where they may or may not get tickets. Seems like a good thing.
You are right that MSG is always going to be the hardest ticket to get of any normal tour, and it will always be a scrum. But consider this very realistic scenario:
Pearl Jam announces an East Coast tour - 1 show in VA Beach, 1 show in DC, 2 shows in Philly, 2 shows in Boston, and 2 shows in NYC. All of these shows except VA Beach are high demand.
Under the old system, if you wanted to get 10c tickets to every single show this could be done by employing any number of the methods we've been discussing. Every person who wanted in was competing with every other person for every single show.
With the lottery system, you are only competing for your 1st choice against other people who have selected that same exact show as their 1st choice. Inevitably this will be a smaller pool of people. NYC is the biggest market, but those shows pull in people who are travelling to see many shows. The lottery makes it much more a game of strategy.
Which show do you select as your first choice? In the new system you must choose wisely, because with an East Coast tour, people are likely ONLY to have a shot at tickets with their first choice.
So if you select Boston 2 as your first choice show, you are only competing against people who selected Boston 2 as their first choice, a much smaller pool of people than going against every 10c member who wants to go to Boston 2.
PM me with any comments or suggestions for the app - or weigh in <a href="http://forums.pearljam.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=167611
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1998: Montreal, Mansfield I&II
2000: Mansfield I&II, Montreal
2003: Las Vegas, Toronto, Montreal, Mansfield I&III
2005: Montreal, Ottawa, Quebec
2006: Albany, Hartford, Boston I&II
2007: Lollapalooza
2008: Bonnaroo, Camden I&II, Hartford, Mansfield I&II
2009: Philadelphia III&IV
2010: Hartford, Boston, New York City II
2011: Alpine Valley I&II
2013: Buffalo, Worcester I&II, Hartford, Los Angeles I&II
2014: Tulsa, Lincoln
2016: New York City I&II, Quebec City, Boston I&II, Chicago I&II
2017: New York
2018: Seattle I&II, Boston I&II
1998 Mansfield
2000 Atlanta & Mansfield
2003 Mansfield (X2)
2004 Boston
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2009 Chicago
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2011 Toronto
2012 Amsterdam
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2014 Memphis, Moline, Denver
2016 Ft. Lauderdale, Miami, Tampa, Hampton, Philly, Fenway (x2), Wrigley Monday
2018 Wrigley (x2), Fenway (x2)
2022 MSG. Nashville
Wow, even in your "last post" you still have avoided the discussion at hand, and continued to derail the thread.
I'm sure it's getting tough for you to think of ways to continually derail the topic, so you've probably picked a good time to run away with your tail between your legs.
Good point, I'm sure there were some methods still unknown to us. Equating an earned ticket buying advantage to any other earned advantage is completely analogous. Effort should always be rewarded... Whether that effort is learning the F5 system, practicing a sport, or studying.
I see your point, it’s highly possible that you are correct due to their experience. I was thinking of it from a desire point of view, would a scalper (someone who by definition is not a very ambitious person) put in the effort to learn the backdoor that a rabid fan would? I think this barrier of entry kept scalpers out of the F5 system, and will invite them in to the lottery.
In the specific situation you describe. Most of the shows will be so popular that they will all be in high enough demand that you will be lucky to be chosen for your first choice. People will put thought in to their choice and it will level the load. I think all "big" shows will be gone with first choices. You have nearly no shot at your second choices. So all of your eggs are in one basket for 10C tickets. In the old system, even a 25% success rate with F5 would score you 10C tickets to 2/8 shows.
People always say stuff like "ticket buying shouldn't take effort". It's only a matter of time before we have, "This isn't chess, ticket buying shouldn't take strategy".
I think some people are using this issue - a rock band's fan club ticketing policy, mind you - as a way to grind their own political ax.
Such political extrapolation, without evidence that the F5 method rewarded your effort, is downright ridiculous.
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