The church system is full of evil men

1234568

Comments

  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    redrock wrote:
    This is not a god/belief thread - let's not make it that way again. It's about the church, the deceit, the cover up, the ramifications. Not about cate's beliefs or yours or mine or TA's. Let's keep it that way. Start a new thread with the quote if you wish it to go in another direction.

    Job's quote is about life, not about god and to me seemed quite appropriate seeing where the thread was going.

    I guess one does not wish to draw the line on this 'thread deviation' , as per the OP's clearly expressed wishes, to bring it back on track.

    :thumbup:
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    edited November 2012
    redrock wrote:
    This is not a god/belief thread - let's not make it that way again. It's about the church, the deceit, the cover up, the ramifications. Not about cate's beliefs or yours or mine or TA's. Let's keep it that way. Start a new thread with the quote if you wish it to go in another direction.

    Job's quote is about life, not about god and to me seemed quite appropriate seeing where the thread was going.

    I guess one does not wish to draw the line on this 'thread deviation' , as per the OP's clearly expressed wishes, to bring it back on track.


    Well.. some of these abusers are 'public' - though admittedly some quite old. I'm sure there must be more on the internet. Reading quickly through this, I do note that a number just continued to teach/practice, etc.

    http://bishop-accountability.org/priest ... ame-A.html
    I responded to cate's quote as others have...
    am I allowed to do that? Are you the boss now I missed that memo :?
    Post edited by pandora on
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Edited. On second thought, I should have done the 'preview' before submitting! Hopefully caught it in time! ;)

    Just trying to get the thread back on track to what could be an interesting discussion about the church, the deceit, the cover up, the ramifications.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:


    Love this.

    For all it's worth, I'm happy I have stood my ground towards my family (well... my mother) regarding something that was very important to her and completely out of the question for me and my husband (yes... church related). So is my daughter - a lovely 'tribute' from her to us, she is getting a tattoo with (amongst other 'design' stuff) the words 'All that I am, you let me be' (lyrics from an AB song). Whilst guiding her, I shall endeavour never to impose my 'life' upon her.

    I enjoy the children guiding me as well, as I guide them.
    Our loving connection that is bigger than this world.

    I finally listened to my Mama and she hers.
    She and I were glad to share this before she left this world.

    Unfortunately my Mama and hers did not. A regret she often spoke of.
    Her mother deeply religious my Mother rebellious and stubborn.
    The importance in that faded quickly as she approached death.
    She realized what was of true importance in life
    often not seen until death's door.

    From this I learned much...

    Dying with your mother is a big life's lesson.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    Edited. On second thought, I should have done the 'preview' before submitting! Hopefully caught it in time! ;)

    Just trying to get the thread back on track to what could be an interesting discussion about the church, the deceit, the cover up, the ramifications.
    ^^^^ oh yes just had to reply to your off topic there as it has great meaning
    to my life.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Catching up on the thread, one thing that does puzzle me are the other organised religions.

    We speak a lot of abuse within the catholic church, some of it coming to light but most still swept under the carpet but what of the other major religions? We don't hear much about such goings on in say, judaism or islam. Is it to say that it's not happening? Or maybe not to the extent of the catholic church. Or are they better at 'sweeping under the carpet'? Has the catholic church been singled out for some reason?

    Abuse is a power thing - are catholic clergy more into this 'show of power' than others? Or maybe it could be a culture issue as well. Just wondering what people's thoughts were.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    redrock wrote:
    Catching up on the thread, one thing that does puzzle me are the other organised religions.

    We speak a lot of abuse within the catholic church, some of it coming to light but most still swept under the carpet but what of the other major religions? We don't hear much about such goings on in say, judaism or islam. Is it to say that it's not happening? Or maybe not to the extent of the catholic church. Or are they better at 'sweeping under the carpet'? Has the catholic church been singled out for some reason?

    Abuse is a power thing - are catholic clergy more into this 'show of power' than others? Or maybe it could be a culture issue as well. Just wondering what people's thoughts were.

    it depends. do those religions make celibacy a rule for their religious leaders?
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Is celibacy the root of this issue though? If so, wouldn't they just have it off with random women and not young children?
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,675
    In his excellent book The Lost Gospel of the Earth, Tom Hayden explores the idea "the basis of our present environmental crisis was laid long ago, when tribal systems of belief were replaced by formal religions. Nature-based mysticism gave way to human-centered theologies that sanctified the earth and taught people to see themselves as dominant over nature."

    My own belief is that all human-centered organized religions exploit the earth which sustains us and is all to often used as an excuse to exploit groups of people who do not follow the particular doctrine of any particular organized religion.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    brianlux wrote:
    In his excellent book The Lost Gospel of the Earth, Tom Hayden explores the idea "the basis of our present environmental crisis was laid long ago, when tribal systems of belief were replaced by formal religions. Nature-based mysticism gave way to human-centered theologies that sanctified the earth and taught people to see themselves as dominant over nature."

    My own belief is that all human-centered organized religions exploit the earth which sustains us and is all to often used as an excuse to exploit groups of people who do not follow the particular doctrine of any particular organized religion.
    human centered ? can you define what you mean by this?
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,675
    pandora wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    In his excellent book The Lost Gospel of the Earth, Tom Hayden explores the idea "the basis of our present environmental crisis was laid long ago, when tribal systems of belief were replaced by formal religions. Nature-based mysticism gave way to human-centered theologies that sanctified the earth and taught people to see themselves as dominant over nature."

    My own belief is that all human-centered organized religions exploit the earth which sustains us and is all to often used as an excuse to exploit groups of people who do not follow the particular doctrine of any particular organized religion.
    human centered ? can you define what you mean by this?

    Most religions take for granted the idea that humans are dominant over nature. For example, the basis of Christianity begins with the creation story in Genesis. "The fall from grace" in this story is a metaphorical story about the advent of agriculture. Some 10,000 years ago a band of humans split off from the rest of humanity which had been living as hunter-gatherers in tribal groups. This advent of agriculture was the first step in human subjugation of nature. It also ushers in the belief in humans that we are superior to nature. With this belief came the development of what I refer to as human-centered religion as opposed to nature-based mysticism. Thus one of the roles of organized religion today is to subjugate nature and any group of people who do not follow the tenets of those religions.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Many organizations have covered up abuse along with churches.
    Reputation, money, greed all important.

    I am so hopeful times are changing. Very different then when my mother was a kid
    in the 1920's 30's no one spoke of sexual abuse, rape. It was covered up for shame.
    When I was young in the 50's and 60's still very taboo even in families let alone organizations.
    Incest not rare and not addressed.

    Today due to laws and changing awareness we see people finally being held accountable
    and punished, in families, organizations, churches, places of business.
    We see victims being empowered to speak up.

    I feel this will bring less abuse in my children's children's time.
    I also feel people will return to churches in the times of great need
    in our not to distant future. Solace in each other, solace in the peace God's love brings,
    solace in knowing the path that takes us on.
  • hedonist
    hedonist Posts: 24,524
    redrock wrote:
    Catching up on the thread, one thing that does puzzle me are the other organised religions.

    We speak a lot of abuse within the catholic church, some of it coming to light but most still swept under the carpet but what of the other major religions? We don't hear much about such goings on in say, judaism or islam. Is it to say that it's not happening? Or maybe not to the extent of the catholic church. Or are they better at 'sweeping under the carpet'? Has the catholic church been singled out for some reason?

    Abuse is a power thing - are catholic clergy more into this 'show of power' than others? Or maybe it could be a culture issue as well. Just wondering what people's thoughts were.
    I don't know much (or just haven't heard about) rabbis indulging in this behavior...it was never my experience when I attended Hebrew school on Saturdays as a little girl.

    There were, however, family members of mine who DID indulge. That, I'm beyond sorry to say, got very well swept up, up and away.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    brianlux wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    In his excellent book The Lost Gospel of the Earth, Tom Hayden explores the idea "the basis of our present environmental crisis was laid long ago, when tribal systems of belief were replaced by formal religions. Nature-based mysticism gave way to human-centered theologies that sanctified the earth and taught people to see themselves as dominant over nature."

    My own belief is that all human-centered organized religions exploit the earth which sustains us and is all to often used as an excuse to exploit groups of people who do not follow the particular doctrine of any particular organized religion.
    human centered ? can you define what you mean by this?

    Most religions take for granted the idea that humans are dominant over nature. For example, the basis of Christianity begins with the creation story in Genesis. "The fall from grace" in this story is a metaphorical story about the advent of agriculture. Some 10,000 years ago a band of humans split off from the rest of humanity which had been living as hunter-gatherers in tribal groups. This advent of agriculture was the first step in human subjugation of nature. It also ushers in the belief in humans that we are superior to nature. With this belief came the development of what I refer to as human-centered religion as opposed to nature-based mysticism. Thus one of the roles of organized religion today is to subjugate nature and any group of people who do not follow the tenets of those religions.
    thanks for explaining
    I had assumed Christianity would be considered this what other religions are human based?
    I'm wondering if you would consider Buddhism to be also.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    redrock wrote:
    Is celibacy the root of this issue though? If so, wouldn't they just have it off with random women and not young children?


    I have read some literature that some people suggest this is the problem. I also wonder why someone would prey on a child of the same sex if all they want is hetero sex, but maybe because they are vulnerable and easier to keep quiet?
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Not only those who don't follow the tenents but also those that do. You use the word dominance and it is just that. Dominance, control, power. Using the needy and vulnerable to suit them. Let's not forget the power of money as well. We see that with the churches and our governments. Corruption. How else could those priests and the church get away with these awful deeds?
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,675
    edited November 2012
    pandora wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    pandora wrote:

    Most religions take for granted the idea that humans are dominant over nature. For example, the basis of Christianity begins with the creation story in Genesis. "The fall from grace" in this story is a metaphorical story about the advent of agriculture. Some 10,000 years ago a band of humans split off from the rest of humanity which had been living as hunter-gatherers in tribal groups. This advent of agriculture was the first step in human subjugation of nature. It also ushers in the belief in humans that we are superior to nature. With this belief came the development of what I refer to as human-centered religion as opposed to nature-based mysticism. Thus one of the roles of organized religion today is to subjugate nature and any group of people who do not follow the tenets of those religions.
    thanks for explaining
    I had assumed Christianity would be considered this what other religions are human based?
    I'm wondering if you would consider Buddhism to be also.

    This can be best answered by this riddle:

    Q: How many Zen masters does it take to screw in a light bulb?

    A: The plum tree in the garden!
    Post edited by brianlux on
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    I guess the same can be said for Penn State. It's all pretty unbelievable.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    brianlux wrote:
    Q: How manyZen masters does it take to screw in a light bulb?

    A: The plum tree in the garden!
    :D

    How 'bout Wicca? ;)
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,675
    pandora wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    Q: How manyZen masters does it take to screw in a light bulb?

    A: The plum tree in the garden!
    :D

    How 'bout Wicca? ;)

    I believe that is an example of what Edward Abbey once described as "an indoor philosophy".
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

Categories