The church system is full of evil men

hedonist

BinFrog wrote:

I am Jewish by ancestry. Many relatives of mine were lost in the atrocities seen in Germany/etc in the 30's and 40's. I'm not downplaying that, AT ALL.

I'm not singling out Judaism, Catholicism, Islam, or any other religions. Organized religion, to me (and many others) is a major problem. I have 100% distanced myself from Judaism as a religion, without losing any sense of historical identity.

Once again, I agree with your last sentence (except that even though I've distanced myself as well, the principles of Judaism are part of the foundation of my life, and perhaps to a different extent, my character as well).

We're not so dissimilar on that front...but don't you think the problem lies with those who abuse religion, manipulate it, go to extremes? -- rather than the tenets of the religion itself.

It's like that old adage - "the love of money is the root of all evil"...money itself isn't evil, it's those who idolize it and skew its purpose. That's kinda how I see religion.

BinFrog

hedonist wrote:

We're not so dissimilar on that front...but don't you think the problem lies with those who abuse religion, manipulate it, go to extremes? -- rather than the tenets of the religion itself.

My problem is with organized religion, not religion or religious principles.

I have no problem if people want to use religious principles as a moral guide (I do however have issue with those who use religion as a crutch...). Religion itself is not for me, but I don't have issues with people who include religion in their lives.

I agree with aspects of religion that should be and/or are just common sense. For example, the ten commandments. I don't need a religion to tell me to follow them. It's just called being a decent human being.

I just have a hard time with these man made ideas/stories/folklore essentially dominating our cultural landscape for several thousand years. The big religions came about in a much different time. The major religions were, unfortunately, brought into being by those in power as a way to keep those without power completely docile. These were entirely uneducated folks with little reason to doubt what was being force fed to them. "Do as your told. Be humble. Don't rise up. Be a part of the herd. Why? Because I am a 'holy man' who has direct access to god. This is how you get into heaven. Trust me, I know. Now, back to my castle." I am just astonished that they have held on as long as they have. Society has progressed so far, completely severing ties with what it used to be in any way, shape or form...and yet these religions still have a grip on billions of people. It makes me sad that we haven't moved on as a society.

pandora

BinFrog wrote:

hedonist wrote:

We're not so dissimilar on that front...but don't you think the problem lies with those who abuse religion, manipulate it, go to extremes? -- rather than the tenets of the religion itself.

My problem is with organized religion, not religion or religious principles.

I have no problem if people want to use religious principles as a moral guide (I do however have issue with those who use religion as a crutch...). Religion itself is not for me, but I don't have issues with people who include religion in their lives.

I agree with aspects of religion that should be and/or are just common sense. For example, the ten commandments. I don't need a religion to tell me to follow them. It's just called being a decent human being.

I just have a hard time with these man made ideas/stories/folklore essentially dominating our cultural landscape for several thousand years. The big religions came about in a much different time. The major religions were, unfortunately, brought into being by those in power as a way to keep those without power completely docile. These were entirely uneducated folks with little reason to doubt what was being force fed to them. "Do as your told. Be humble. Don't rise up. Be a part of the herd. Why? Because I am a 'holy man' who has direct access to god. This is how you get into heaven. Trust me, I know. Now, back to my castle." I am just astonished that they have held on as long as they have. Society has progressed so far, completely severing ties with what it used to be in any way, shape or form...and yet these religions still have a grip on billions of people. It makes me sad that we haven't moved on as a society.

Sounds like you expect to have everyone believe as you do.
What makes you think the billions are wrong and you are right?

hedonist

BinFrog wrote:

My problem is with organized religion, not religion or religious principles.

I have no problem if people want to use religious principles as a moral guide (I do however have issue with those who use religion as a crutch...). Religion itself is not for me, but I don't have issues with people who include religion in their lives.

I agree with aspects of religion that should be and/or are just common sense. For example, the ten commandments. I don't need a religion to tell me to follow them. It's just called being a decent human being.

It's interesting, because I think my moral guide IS based on common sense, but was taught to me via the precepts of my parents' religion. I always saw it as basic decency, as you mentioned.

As to the crutch...well, people rely on them sometimes. I know many who've found strength in it, and the will to get through some fucked up and unimaginable times. To them, I say good on ya - whatever gets you through the night, without waking up the neighbors

I don't believe it's about wrong or right; what works for one won't work for another, and it's no one's place - to me, anyhow - no matter how for/against/in-between one is about organized religion - to give anyone a hard time on their stance.

(This of course omits extremists, pedophiles, and the like.)

BinFrog

hedonist wrote:

BinFrog wrote:

My problem is with organized religion, not religion or religious principles.

I have no problem if people want to use religious principles as a moral guide (I do however have issue with those who use religion as a crutch...). Religion itself is not for me, but I don't have issues with people who include religion in their lives.

I agree with aspects of religion that should be and/or are just common sense. For example, the ten commandments. I don't need a religion to tell me to follow them. It's just called being a decent human being.

It's interesting, because I think my moral guide IS based on common sense, but was taught to me via the precepts of my parents' religion. I always saw it as basic decency, as you mentioned.

As to the crutch...well, people rely on them sometimes. I know many who've found strength in it, and the will to get through some fucked up and unimaginable times. To them, I say good on ya - whatever gets you through the night, without waking up the neighbors

I don't believe it's about wrong or right; what works for one won't work for another, and it's no one's place - to me, anyhow - no matter how for/against/in-between one is about organized religion - to give anyone a hard time on their stance.

(This of course omits extremists, pedophiles, and the like.)

We're not that different. To each their own, and whatever gets you through the night is alright by me. Amen.

I would never tell anyone to not be religious. To me religion is just silly, but I acknowledge that my opinion is MY opinion only.

hedonist

BinFrog wrote:

We're not that different. To each their own, and whatever gets you through the night is alright by me. Amen.

I would never tell anyone to not be religious. To me religion is just silly, but I acknowledge that my opinion is MY opinion only.

Amen indeed.

And I'll say that it sure was nice to have a rational discussion with someone on a topic that at times has the capacity to turn so...irrational. Thanks

Austicman

This is where most of the talk about Child Molestation in the Catholic Church has stemmed from over the last couple of days:

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/b ... 6515511826

A CATHOLIC brother charged with molesting two young boys at a Sydney school has chosen not to appear in court.
He is one of two teachers charged with assaulting students in the 1980s at a Catholic college and Catholic primary school in the city's west.
Martin Harmata, 59, remained in the holding cells of Wyong Local Court, on the NSW Central Coast, when his matter was briefly mentioned on Tuesday.
Court documents list his address as the school but he was arrested on Monday at a property at The Entrance.
Police charged him with six historical offences relating to two boys who were aged 13 at the time.
The charges include the indecent assault of a person under his authority and committing an indecent act towards a person under his authority.
Harmata allegedly rubbed one boy on the upper thigh and also made the boy touch his penis.
Police also charged him with masturbating in front of the other boy and getting the boy to masturbate Harmata.
He did not apply for bail, which was formally refused, but is expected to apply on Wednesday when he appears before the same court via audio-visual link.
Another former teacher, a 58-year-old man arrested at a Blacktown property on Monday, has been charged with offences relating to one of the boys and an eight-year-old girl.
Police say the charges include sexual assault, indecent assault, committing an indecent act.
He has been granted strict conditional bail and will appear at Blacktown Local Court on December 13.
Sex Crimes Squad commander Detective Acting Superintendent Michael Haddow said there was no evidence to suggest the men were part of a pedophile ring.
"It will be alleged that a number of those incidents occurred on the school grounds at those particular schools," Det Act Supt Michael Haddow said.
He said police alleged that the Harmata worked full-time at the primary school and the teacher was a relief teacher.
"One of those teachers was working as a relief teacher at the college and was also at some time working as a relief teacher at the primary school," he said.
Police would allege that separate offences took place at separate times, although both men have been charged in relation to the same 13-year-old boy.
"The allegations ... relate to separate assaults at different times," he said.
"The evidence before us at the moment is not ... that there is an actual pedophile ring, or was a pedophile ring, at that school.
"There's no allegations in relation to these two offenders committed sex assaults together."


So this piece of Shit was my Year 7( I don't what year in US this is I was 13) Religion and Maths teacher. I think back now at realise what a creepy guy he was but as I was never subjected to anything you don't think about it at the time.
The kids used to call him Brother Minty because sometimes when he shook your hand he would have a Minty in it for you.
When it comes to the kids molested this will be the tip of the ice berg. Hopefully thanks to these very brave people who have come forward and have actually had charges laid successfully aganist him more will have the courage to speak up and ensure this guy and his associates(I gaurantee you there will be more) get what they deserve.

Cosmo

The road I choose is the road of my choosing. I don't have anything against any of the religions of the world... i just choose not to follow any of them. I'll find my own way and where it leads me is where I am supposed to be... i suppose.
As for the big churches... I don't see them as being any different than a business. If the CEO of Monsanto tries to cover up criminal behaviour by one of his managers... he needs to be held accountable to the laws of the land where the victims reside... no more of this 'Living By God's Law' to shelter them from justice. My guess... God does not protect child molestors. If He does... He does not deserve our faith, right?

Hugh Freaking Dillon

organized religion is not evil; man, who runs organized religion, is fatally flawed. there are pedophiles and cover ups of said pedophiles in all walks of life, but the church gets the brunt of the flack because they are in a position of perceived highest moral authority.

earth is full of mentally ill men/women. some of them happen to be involved in organized religion.

I'll never understand why people equate the church with evil. it's some of the people in the church that deserve that label, not the church itself.

that's the same as painting all Muslims with the terrorist brush.

Cosmo

Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:

organized religion is not evil; man, who runs organized religion, is fatally flawed. there are pedophiles and cover ups of said pedophiles in all walks of life, but the church gets the brunt of the flack because they are in a position of perceived highest moral authority.

earth is full of mentally ill men/women. some of them happen to be involved in organized religion.

I'll never understand why people equate the church with evil. it's some of the people in the church that deserve that label, not the church itself.

that's the same as painting all Muslims with the terrorist brush.

...
I totallty agree... I believe that all religions.. in an of themselves, are good.. or at least, have good intentions.
But, i also believe It is the CHURCH that sits atop the religion that is corruptable. Because the church is owned and operated by Man, who is completely flawed. Men will do what it takes to protect the Church... because the Church is a livlihood to the Men who sit at its highest point.
The Church is capable of spreading it's corruption to the people.. who will sit in the pews and defend the pedophile because an attack on him is an attack on the church and an attack on themselves. Similar to the was Penn State students and alumni rallied around Sandusky and Paterno.. and continue to support and defend them today... despite all of the truths and facts set before them. It is an institution.

Thoughts_Arrive

This has been big news here in Australia this week, a Royal Commission has been set up to investigate the abuse.
What has made my blood boil this week is listening to Cardinal George Pell deny the abuse, and others blaming the victims, and God.
I often have heated arguments with my religious mother who calls me evil for not going to Church.
She has told me I am not a Catholic and I am a failure and that I hate God.
My sister has called me selfish for not going Church on Christimas.
I feel like a black sheep in the family but I strongly believe in my values and going to Church isn't one of them.
I will only ever set foot in a Church if necessary, i.e. weddings, funerals, baptisms.
When the time comes for me to get married I don't know if I can bring myself to have it at a Church.

Prince Of Dorkness

New Jersey: Members of the Walking With Christ sect have pleaded not guilty of causing the death of an eight year-old girl after forcing the child to fast in order to achieve holiness. Pastor Emanyel Kris told followers that even to swallow one's own saliva was a "sin" and a violation of his fasting edict. The victim's mother is charged with aggravated manslaughter. Pastor Kris has not been charged with anything.

Nevada: Father Kevin McAuliffe confesses to stealing $650K to support his gambling habit.

Texas: Pastor Francisco Antonio Hernandez arrested for molesting at least four girls, including three who were sisters.

Tennessee: Pastor Rickey Alan Reed arrested for burglarizing the home of a parishioner.

Oklahoma: Pastor Joe Cheater arrested for molestation and child rape of four girls.

New York: Reverend Victor Rosa arrested for fraudulently cashing pension checks of long-deceased neighbor.

New York: Father Brady arrested on two counts of child molestation.

Kansas: Pastor Birger Draget charged with 21 counts of sex crimes against a child.

Texas: Mistress of Pastor Tracy Burleson convicted in his plot to pay his son to murder his wife.

Georgia: Pastor Joshua Drucker convicted on two counts of murder.

Ontario: Father Jose Silva resigns after sexual assault charges.

London: Father Laurence Soper has gone on the lam after being accused of multiple counts of child abuse. Soper is 80.

Belgium: Brussels Archdiocese promises to compensate 500 victims of molestation by church workers. At least 13 suicides are thought to have resulted from the attacks.

North Carolina: Pastor John Jackson charged with additional felony counts of embezzling from his church. Last month Jackson was charged with using church funds to insure his five Cadillacs.

Ontario: Pastor Emmanual Animodi charged with sexual assault on a parishioner.

Alabama: Pastor James Hunter and his wife charged with dealing morphine.

New York: Rabbi Saul Kassin let off with two years probation in massive $50M international bank fraud scheme.

New Mexico: Pastor Steven Perez charged with child molestation.

California: Father William Myers placed on leave after following a minor boy into the changing room at a department store.

Texas: Pastor Theodore Baines sued by congregation for threatening them, abusing alcohol, and making lewd comments to young female parishioners.

Minnesota: Pastor David Radtke charged with molesting a foreign exchange student staying in his home.

Missouri: Diocese of Kansas City sued for covering up the actions of Father Shawn Ratigan, who is accused of taking photos of a nude underage girl.

California: Pastor Carlton Hammonds sentenced to four years in prison for child molestation.

Iowa: Pastor Patrick Eduoard charged with multiple counts of sexual abuse.

New York: Molestation trial of Pastor Joe Flowers delayed due to revelation of a second victim.

Ontario: Father Linus Bastien charged with two counts of indecent assault.

Illinois: Imprisoned felon sues the Pope for childhood sexual abuse by his priest.

Alabama: Pastor Barry Albert Cook charged with sexual abuse and torture of a child.

South Carolina: Pastor Jonathan Roberts charged with felonious theft of church money.

New York: Father Thomas Kreiser charged with using $25K in church donations for online gambling.

Wisconsin: Pastor Philip Caminiti charged with eight felony counts of child abuse for beating children as young as two months old.

Oklahoma: Pastor Vincent Brookfield charged with seven felony counts of molesting a seven year-old girl.

North Carolina: Pastor Paul Burke Johnson charged with four counts of sexual battery on a mentally impaired woman.

Iowa: Pastor Patrick Edouard charged with raping three women in his congregation.

Utah: Pastor Aaron Witcher sentenced to five years to life in prison on two counts of rape of a minor.

Pennsylvania: Father Ralph Johnson sentenced to four years in prison for child molestation. Johnson is 84.

New York: Rabbi Saul Kassin confesses to multimillion dollar money laundering scheme involving sales of human organs and counterfeit handbags.

Florida: Teacher at private Christian school charged with beating a 12 year-old boy unconscious with a broomstick.

Wisconsin: Father Joseph Gibbs charged with fondling a teenage girl. Gibbs allegedly threatened to sue the girl's family if she told.

Illinois: Imprisoned child molester Father Donald McGuire reveals evidence that his parish knew of his crimes and did nothing.

Oregon: In one of the largest settlements ever paid by a religious group, Northwest's Jesuits have agreed to pay $166M to nearly 500 victims of sexual abuse by priests. Most of the victims are Native Americans abused as children at Jesuit parish schools across the Pacific northwest and in Alaska. The settlement, which will largely be paid by an insurance company, is part of a bankruptcy reorganization plan.

Prince Of Dorkness

Ontario: Bishop Raymond Lahey has pleaded guilty to possession and importation of child pornography. Lahey was arrested at the Ottawa airport after nervously denying that he possessed a laptop. Noting that his passport contained stamps from countries infamous for child pornography, customs agents confiscated a computer and a memory stick found to contain over 500 images of young boys being "enslaved and degraded." In 2009, Lahey had brokered a $15M settlement from his diocese to victims of molestation by priests, saying at the time, "I want to formally apologize to every victim and to their families for the sexual abuse that was inflicted upon those young people who were entitled instead to the trust and protection of priests of the church."

Wisconsin: Pastor David E. Radtke charged with sexual assault on a 16 year-old student.

Georgia: Pastor David Pope charged with child molestation.

Wisconsin: Father Michael Nowak charged with making obscene phone calls to underage girls.

Kentucky: Pastor Jeremy Caraway charged with child rape.

Arizona: Two Mormon bishops will not be charged for failing to report a church member who confessed to child molestation.

Missouri: Father Shawn Ratigan pleads not guilty to taking pornographic photos of young girls.

Nevada: Pastor Raymond Mosely charged with compelling a four year-old to touch his genitals.

Michigan: Pastor Christopher Settlemoir sentenced to 15 years in prison for sexual assault on a minor.

Delaware: Father James O'Neill has confessed to molesting a pre-teen boy hundreds of times over several years. The victim, now 43, has settled a lawsuit with the Diocese of Wilmington.

West Virginia: Pastor Matthew Jarrell kills himself in jail after being charged with rape.

New York: The ultra-Orthodox Agudath Israel of America has ruled that rabbis must first be consulted before notifying police about child molestation.

Louisiana: Youth Pastor Angelo Golatt indicted on multiple counts of molesting children as young as nine years old.

South Carolina: Pastor Charles Ledford arrested for embezzling over $250K from his church.

Louisiana: Pastor Elijah Mealancon busted for stealing $100K from an elderly parishioner.

New Brunswick: Father Charles Jean Picot found guilty of child molestation.

Georgia: Pastor Kenneth Terrell pleads guilty to embezzling $200K from his church. Terrell has been arrested 27 times in the past.

Missouri: Father Martin T. Sigillito charged in $52M Ponzi scam.

California: Father Antonio Cortes sentenced for child molestation.

New York: Rabbi Gavriel Bidany found guilty of groping the genitals of a sleeping female on a flight from Tel Aviv to JFK.

North Carolina: Pastor John Jackson arrested for using church money to insure his five Cadillacs.

Nevada: Pastor Raymond Mosley charged with molesting a four year-old girl.

Britain: Father Wojciech Jasinski charged with exhuming the corpse of a child saint in order to move the bones closer to his mother's grave. Happy Mother's Day!

Wisconsin: Pastor Travis Gandy convicted of child molestation and possession of child porn.

Arizona: Christian school teacher Joshua Carroll charged with child molestation.

Arkansas: Pastor Joel Church pleads guilty to possession of child pornography.

Wisconsin: Pastor Leon Piepenbrink charged with embezzling $68K from his church.

Missouri: White supremacist Pastor Robert Joos loses federal appeal on weapons possession conviction.

Virginia: Pastor Steve Dean charged with child molestation.

Netherlands: A Dutch Catholic priest identified as Father Van B. has admitted to serving on the board of directors of a group lobbying for the legalization of pedophilia. The priest's superior says that he was aware of Father Van B's involvement with the group. The church is said to be investigating.

Prince Of Dorkness

I would like to point out that ALL of the above crimes took place over a FOUR WEEK PERIOD from May to June of 2011.


So yeah. I do believe that the majority of religious people are evil to the core.

Not all.

Just most.

catefrances

aerial wrote:

Anyone remember Satan/the Devil? crazy how everything good is bad and bad is good today. Satan is responsible for this not God. These people that sexually abuse children need to get the Death Penalty. I think that would help solve the problem......

as he created everything, before that God created satan(lucifer) and the other angels. if one believes that God is omnipresent and omnipotent then surely he must have foreseen Lucifer's casting from heaven and most definately would have seen the reasons for it. in fact he wouldve created Lucifer, giving him not only all his goodness but also all his faults. why would God create such an angel knowing what was to come? is satan just the scapegoat for all bad behaviour? and if so, is this because God does no bad? where is personal responsibility in all this? for me just as i give zero credence to the God told me to do it excuse, i equally dismiss the binary, the devil made me do it. it is MANKIND that does or doesnt do, no one else. it is OURSELVES we struggle with, not God and certainly not satan. i know there are people who need to attribute their behaviours to mythical beings.. i am not one of them. and i have no time for people who do.

catefrances

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

...When the time comes for me to get married I don't know if I can bring myself to have it at a Church.

you wont have to... afterall God is everywhere is he not?

Thoughts_Arrive

catefrances wrote:

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

...When the time comes for me to get married I don't know if I can bring myself to have it at a Church.

you wont have to... afterall God is everywhere is he not?

I know, but it's the traditional side of it also. Especially in my culture.

polaris_x

Thoughts_Arrive wrote:

This has been big news here in Australia this week, a Royal Commission has been set up to investigate the abuse.
What has made my blood boil this week is listening to Cardinal George Pell deny the abuse, and others blaming the victims, and God.
I often have heated arguments with my religious mother who calls me evil for not going to Church.
She has told me I am not a Catholic and I am a failure and that I hate God.
My sister has called me selfish for not going Church on Christimas.
I feel like a black sheep in the family but I strongly believe in my values and going to Church isn't one of them.
I will only ever set foot in a Church if necessary, i.e. weddings, funerals, baptisms.
When the time comes for me to get married I don't know if I can bring myself to have it at a Church.

this is the thing with the catholic church ... they can't let people be ... they use fear, intimidation and bullying to try and make you conform ... where is the acceptance and tolerance!? ... there is none from an organization that refuses to accept gay marriage amongst other things ... it is fundamentally intolerant ...

Hugh Freaking Dillon

polaris_x wrote:

this is the thing with the catholic church ... they can't let people be ... they use fear, intimidation and bullying to try and make you conform ... where is the acceptance and tolerance!? ... there is none from an organization that refuses to accept gay marriage amongst other things ... it is fundamentally intolerant ...

I don't know any catholic bullies. I only know human ones.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Prince Of Dorkness wrote:

I would like to point out that ALL of the above crimes took place over a FOUR WEEK PERIOD from May to June of 2011.


So yeah. I do believe that the majority of religious people are evil to the core.

Not all.

Just most.

you and your overdramatic posts with sweeping generalizations. come on.