In his excellent book The Lost Gospel of the Earth, Tom Hayden explores the idea "the basis of our present environmental crisis was laid long ago, when tribal systems of belief were replaced by formal religions. Nature-based mysticism gave way to human-centered theologies that sanctified the earth and taught people to see themselves as dominant over nature."
My own belief is that all human-centered organized religions exploit the earth which sustains us and is all to often used as an excuse to exploit groups of people who do not follow the particular doctrine of any particular organized religion.
human centered ? can you define what you mean by this?
Most religions take for granted the idea that humans are dominant over nature. For example, the basis of Christianity begins with the creation story in Genesis. "The fall from grace" in this story is a metaphorical story about the advent of agriculture. Some 10,000 years ago a band of humans split off from the rest of humanity which had been living as hunter-gatherers in tribal groups. This advent of agriculture was the first step in human subjugation of nature. It also ushers in the belief in humans that we are superior to nature. With this belief came the development of what I refer to as human-centered religion as opposed to nature-based mysticism. Thus one of the roles of organized religion today is to subjugate nature and any group of people who do not follow the tenets of those religions.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
Many organizations have covered up abuse along with churches.
Reputation, money, greed all important.
I am so hopeful times are changing. Very different then when my mother was a kid
in the 1920's 30's no one spoke of sexual abuse, rape. It was covered up for shame.
When I was young in the 50's and 60's still very taboo even in families let alone organizations.
Incest not rare and not addressed.
Today due to laws and changing awareness we see people finally being held accountable
and punished, in families, organizations, churches, places of business.
We see victims being empowered to speak up.
I feel this will bring less abuse in my children's children's time.
I also feel people will return to churches in the times of great need
in our not to distant future. Solace in each other, solace in the peace God's love brings,
solace in knowing the path that takes us on.
Catching up on the thread, one thing that does puzzle me are the other organised religions.
We speak a lot of abuse within the catholic church, some of it coming to light but most still swept under the carpet but what of the other major religions? We don't hear much about such goings on in say, judaism or islam. Is it to say that it's not happening? Or maybe not to the extent of the catholic church. Or are they better at 'sweeping under the carpet'? Has the catholic church been singled out for some reason?
Abuse is a power thing - are catholic clergy more into this 'show of power' than others? Or maybe it could be a culture issue as well. Just wondering what people's thoughts were.
I don't know much (or just haven't heard about) rabbis indulging in this behavior...it was never my experience when I attended Hebrew school on Saturdays as a little girl.
There were, however, family members of mine who DID indulge. That, I'm beyond sorry to say, got very well swept up, up and away.
In his excellent book The Lost Gospel of the Earth, Tom Hayden explores the idea "the basis of our present environmental crisis was laid long ago, when tribal systems of belief were replaced by formal religions. Nature-based mysticism gave way to human-centered theologies that sanctified the earth and taught people to see themselves as dominant over nature."
My own belief is that all human-centered organized religions exploit the earth which sustains us and is all to often used as an excuse to exploit groups of people who do not follow the particular doctrine of any particular organized religion.
human centered ? can you define what you mean by this?
Most religions take for granted the idea that humans are dominant over nature. For example, the basis of Christianity begins with the creation story in Genesis. "The fall from grace" in this story is a metaphorical story about the advent of agriculture. Some 10,000 years ago a band of humans split off from the rest of humanity which had been living as hunter-gatherers in tribal groups. This advent of agriculture was the first step in human subjugation of nature. It also ushers in the belief in humans that we are superior to nature. With this belief came the development of what I refer to as human-centered religion as opposed to nature-based mysticism. Thus one of the roles of organized religion today is to subjugate nature and any group of people who do not follow the tenets of those religions.
thanks for explaining
I had assumed Christianity would be considered this what other religions are human based?
I'm wondering if you would consider Buddhism to be also.
Is celibacy the root of this issue though? If so, wouldn't they just have it off with random women and not young children?
I have read some literature that some people suggest this is the problem. I also wonder why someone would prey on a child of the same sex if all they want is hetero sex, but maybe because they are vulnerable and easier to keep quiet?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Not only those who don't follow the tenents but also those that do. You use the word dominance and it is just that. Dominance, control, power. Using the needy and vulnerable to suit them. Let's not forget the power of money as well. We see that with the churches and our governments. Corruption. How else could those priests and the church get away with these awful deeds?
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brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,090
Most religions take for granted the idea that humans are dominant over nature. For example, the basis of Christianity begins with the creation story in Genesis. "The fall from grace" in this story is a metaphorical story about the advent of agriculture. Some 10,000 years ago a band of humans split off from the rest of humanity which had been living as hunter-gatherers in tribal groups. This advent of agriculture was the first step in human subjugation of nature. It also ushers in the belief in humans that we are superior to nature. With this belief came the development of what I refer to as human-centered religion as opposed to nature-based mysticism. Thus one of the roles of organized religion today is to subjugate nature and any group of people who do not follow the tenets of those religions.
thanks for explaining
I had assumed Christianity would be considered this what other religions are human based? I'm wondering if you would consider Buddhism to be also.
This can be best answered by this riddle:
Q: How many Zen masters does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: The plum tree in the garden!
Post edited by brianlux on
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
Q: How manyZen masters does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: The plum tree in the garden!
How 'bout Wicca?
I believe that is an example of what Edward Abbey once described as "an indoor philosophy".
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
hmmm...
I read a book long ago ...
70's I think
Fire Mountain ... the cobwebs of my mind are getting in the way
Sorry to get off subject-- though Fire was good, I'd go with Fools Progress as E.A.'s best novel and maybe One Life at a Time, Please [which refers to "born again"- so not too far off topic] as a great essay collection.
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
hmmm...
I read a book long ago ...
70's I think
Fire Mountain ... the cobwebs of my mind are getting in the way
Sorry to get off subject-- though Fire was good, I'd go with Fools Progress as E.A.'s best novel and maybe One Life at a Time, Please [which refers to "born again"- so not too far off topic] as a great essay collection.
Is celibacy the root of this issue though? If so, wouldn't they just have it off with random women and not young children?
I have read some literature that some people suggest this is the problem. I also wonder why someone would prey on a child of the same sex if all they want is hetero sex, but maybe because they are vulnerable and easier to keep quiet?
I read a very convincing article several years ago that talked about priests who are pedophiles. The author speculated that celibacy played a part in it but not the way most people might think. Pedophiles are people who are sexually immature. They would be attracted to a profession such as the priesthood where they would not be expected to marry and have an adult sexual relationship. That might be a reason why there is such a high incidence among Catholic priests.
But I used to wonder if it was something unique to Catholicism and a friend who is Methodist assured me that her denomination deals with it as well and that probably other religions do too. There it's more typical with youth ministers or pastors abusing vulnerable women.
Is celibacy the root of this issue though? If so, wouldn't they just have it off with random women and not young children?
I have read some literature that some people suggest this is the problem. I also wonder why someone would prey on a child of the same sex if all they want is hetero sex, but maybe because they are vulnerable and easier to keep quiet?
I read a very convincing article several years ago that talked about priests who are pedophiles. The author speculated that celibacy played a part in it but not the way most people might think. Pedophiles are people who are sexually immature. They would be attracted to a profession such as the priesthood where they would not be expected to marry and have an adult sexual relationship. That might be a reason why there is such a high incidence among Catholic priests.
But I used to wonder if it was something unique to Catholicism and a friend who is Methodist assured me that her denomination deals with it as well and that probably other religions do too. There it's more typical with youth ministers or pastors abusing vulnerable women.
wouldn't the high incidence in the catholic church easily be explained by it being the largest religion on earth? Or is it?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Christianity as a whole is the largest religion on Earth. Not sure the exact percentage of that which is Catholic but Catholicism on its own is not the largest religion on Earth. A big one though, no doubt.
Christianity as a whole is the largest religion on Earth. Not sure the exact percentage of that which is Catholic but Catholicism on its own is not the largest religion on Earth. A big one though, no doubt.
I thought Islam was but according to this, you are correct:
“The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man [or woman] who lives fully is prepared to die at any time.” Variously credited to Mark Twain or Edward Abbey.
I think the Catholic Church draws sexual deviants by virtue of its ridiculous dogma relating to celibacy. Pedophiles and the like join up in droves because they think their vows will help them to not be pedophiles or whatever. Unfortunately, they overestimate the power of their vows to God!
I think the Catholic Church draws assholes because that's how it ALWAYS is when an institution sets up a system of elitism and power rankings.
I think the Catholic Church is disgusting, frankly. I don't mean I think Catholics are. The Church itself, as a corporation and political body and organized hierarchy is disgusting (I also find the fact that they keep on just making up new rules very disturbing). It surprises me that Catholics don't take more issue with it, or follow it at all. Especially with the sex shit and the refusal to get with the times re birth control, etc.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Most religions take for granted the idea that humans are dominant over nature. For example, the basis of Christianity begins with the creation story in Genesis. "The fall from grace" in this story is a metaphorical story about the advent of agriculture. Some 10,000 years ago a band of humans split off from the rest of humanity which had been living as hunter-gatherers in tribal groups. This advent of agriculture was the first step in human subjugation of nature. It also ushers in the belief in humans that we are superior to nature. With this belief came the development of what I refer to as human-centered religion as opposed to nature-based mysticism. Thus one of the roles of organized religion today is to subjugate nature and any group of people who do not follow the tenets of those religions.
Reputation, money, greed all important.
I am so hopeful times are changing. Very different then when my mother was a kid
in the 1920's 30's no one spoke of sexual abuse, rape. It was covered up for shame.
When I was young in the 50's and 60's still very taboo even in families let alone organizations.
Incest not rare and not addressed.
Today due to laws and changing awareness we see people finally being held accountable
and punished, in families, organizations, churches, places of business.
We see victims being empowered to speak up.
I feel this will bring less abuse in my children's children's time.
I also feel people will return to churches in the times of great need
in our not to distant future. Solace in each other, solace in the peace God's love brings,
solace in knowing the path that takes us on.
There were, however, family members of mine who DID indulge. That, I'm beyond sorry to say, got very well swept up, up and away.
I had assumed Christianity would be considered this what other religions are human based?
I'm wondering if you would consider Buddhism to be also.
I have read some literature that some people suggest this is the problem. I also wonder why someone would prey on a child of the same sex if all they want is hetero sex, but maybe because they are vulnerable and easier to keep quiet?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
This can be best answered by this riddle:
Q: How many Zen masters does it take to screw in a light bulb?
A: The plum tree in the garden!
How 'bout Wicca?
I believe that is an example of what Edward Abbey once described as "an indoor philosophy".
I read a book long ago ...
70's I think
Fire Mountain ... the cobwebs of my mind are getting in the way
Sorry to get off subject-- though Fire was good, I'd go with Fools Progress as E.A.'s best novel and maybe One Life at a Time, Please [which refers to "born again"- so not too far off topic] as a great essay collection.
But I used to wonder if it was something unique to Catholicism and a friend who is Methodist assured me that her denomination deals with it as well and that probably other religions do too. There it's more typical with youth ministers or pastors abusing vulnerable women.
wouldn't the high incidence in the catholic church easily be explained by it being the largest religion on earth? Or is it?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"...I changed by not changing at all..."
I think they can not drink so I can not join
I thought Islam was but according to this, you are correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_reli ... _religions
I think the Catholic Church draws assholes because that's how it ALWAYS is when an institution sets up a system of elitism and power rankings.
I think the Catholic Church is disgusting, frankly. I don't mean I think Catholics are. The Church itself, as a corporation and political body and organized hierarchy is disgusting (I also find the fact that they keep on just making up new rules very disturbing). It surprises me that Catholics don't take more issue with it, or follow it at all. Especially with the sex shit and the refusal to get with the times re birth control, etc.