U.S. embassy in Cairo apologizes

cincybearcat

butterjam wrote:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

Exactly. Love the onion.

I can't believe anyone would say "they just happen to be muslim". That is ridiculous. Their faith is the entire reason the act occurred. And again, doesn't mean all Muslims are bad, but these religious zealots of the muslim faith are human scum.

cincybearcat

Moonpig wrote:

If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.

Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??

Most of those shooters aren't shooting because someone offended their religion or their religious leader told them to kill all infidels.

I don't believe your argument holds any weight.

cincybearcat

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/14/opinion/h ... ?hpt=hp_t2

Here's the "no shit" article of the day.

butterjam

peacefrompaul wrote:

butterjam wrote:

But how about the innocent civilians killed by our government in drone attacks? Do their lives matter less? Where is the outrage over their deaths?

Right here... you are not alone.

I'm speaking of anything in the media, protests by the "anti-war" movement, code pink, etc. It seems like they are given this administration a free pass on this issue.

hedonist

cincybearcat wrote:

I can't believe anyone would say "they just happen to be muslim". That is ridiculous. Their faith is the entire reason the act occurred. And again, doesn't mean all Muslims are bad, but these religious zealots of the muslim faith are human scum.

Thank you; that's a huge point and isn't applicable to Muslims only.

How many times does that bolded part keep getting missed?

(I'm also trying to comprehend the earlier comment in this thread that Orthodox Jews are extremists. I hope I misunderstood, misread. I sure hope I don't have to inform some of my family that they're considered nutjobs)

Godfather.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/world/ara ... ?hpt=hp_t2

CNN) -- The United States has been clear about how it thinks leaders should react to the anti-American violence in Libya, Yemen and Egypt this week. The chaos has been spurred on in part by a movie posted on YouTube that unflatteringly portrays Islam's Prophet Mohammed.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday there should be no debate that bloodshed in response to speech is not acceptable.

"Any responsible leader should be standing up now and drawing that line," she said.

But is it really that simple?



Godfather.

PJ_Soul

Moonpig wrote:

If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.

Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??

Sorry, but I disagree... actually... you're wrong. The Muslim extremist issue is not comparable to random crime AT ALL. It's an ORGANIZED MOVEMENT which includes RECRUITMENT and TERRORISM. I can tell you're not Muslim, because no MUSLIM I've ever known (and I know several, and have been very close to a couple) would EVER deny that Muslim extremism is an organized threat in the world. They also wouldn't deny that there is a contingent in North American and Europe that does indeed want to live by Sharia Law and actually do so, and challenge local law when they are confronted (luckily they fail in these efforts) - this is a fact, not an opinion. No one in this whole thread has said that this is widespread. Just that it is something that goes on among a minority, and that the actions of that minority are a problem, as Muslims and non-Muslims alike who aren't stricken by a bad case of the PCs will tell you.

I really don't understand what it is you're trying to defend here.

whygohome

Godfather. wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/world/arab-leaders-reactions/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

CNN) -- The United States has been clear about how it thinks leaders should react to the anti-American violence in Libya, Yemen and Egypt this week. The chaos has been spurred on in part by a movie posted on YouTube that unflatteringly portrays Islam's Prophet Mohammed.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday there should be no debate that bloodshed in response to speech is not acceptable.

"Any responsible leader should be standing up now and drawing that line," she said.

But is it really that simple?



Godfather.

Simple? Not with these brainwashed, fanatical zealots who riot with murderous rage when their invisible man in the sky is "insulted" in a made for Youtube "film."

dignin

PJ_Soul wrote:

Moonpig wrote:

If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.

Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??

Sorry, but I disagree... actually... you're wrong. The Muslim extremist issue is not comparable to random crime AT ALL. It's an ORGANIZED MOVEMENT which includes RECRUITMENT and TERRORISM. I can tell you're not Muslim, because no MUSLIM I've ever known (and I know several, and have been very close to a couple) would EVER deny that Muslim extremism is an organized threat in the world. They also wouldn't deny that there is a contingent in North American and Europe that does indeed want to live by Sharia Law and actually do so, and challenge local law when they are confronted (luckily they fail in these efforts) - this is a fact, not an opinion. No one in this whole thread has said that this is widespread. Just that it is something that goes on among a minority, and that the actions of that minority are a problem, as Muslims and non-Muslims alike who aren't stricken by a bad case of the PCs will tell you.

I really don't understand what it is you're trying to defend here.

I'm more in agreement with Moonpig on this. I think these protests have more to do with angry young males, venting mob style. I believe this has little to do with their religion......its an excuse. If you have witnessed a mob in action (i have) you might understand that perfectly sane human beings will lose their fucking minds. Unemployment is high in these countries. They have just went through revolution and are finding their footing, this doesn't happen overnight. If the United States or Canada or anywhere else went through these monumental changes I believe we could very well be doing the same things, we are no different, we are all human....its in our nature. This will flare up and go away. From what I have read, most people participating in these mobs/protests have never seen the trailer/movie. I'm not saying that there are not religious "nutjobs" out there because there are, and no faith is immune. I just think there is something more going on here then them being "crazy" Muslims, something I think as North Americans we are so quick to assume.

PJ_Soul

dignin wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Moonpig wrote:

If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.

Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??

Sorry, but I disagree... actually... you're wrong. The Muslim extremist issue is not comparable to random crime AT ALL. It's an ORGANIZED MOVEMENT which includes RECRUITMENT and TERRORISM. I can tell you're not Muslim, because no MUSLIM I've ever known (and I know several, and have been very close to a couple) would EVER deny that Muslim extremism is an organized threat in the world. They also wouldn't deny that there is a contingent in North American and Europe that does indeed want to live by Sharia Law and actually do so, and challenge local law when they are confronted (luckily they fail in these efforts) - this is a fact, not an opinion. No one in this whole thread has said that this is widespread. Just that it is something that goes on among a minority, and that the actions of that minority are a problem, as Muslims and non-Muslims alike who aren't stricken by a bad case of the PCs will tell you.

I really don't understand what it is you're trying to defend here.

I'm more in agreement with Moonpig on this. I think these protests have more to do with angry young males, venting mob style. I believe this has little to do with their religion......its an excuse. If you have witnessed a mob in action (i have) you might understand that perfectly sane human beings will lose there fucking minds. Unemployment is high in these countries. They have just went through revolution and are finding their footing, this doesn't happen overnight. If the United States or Canada or anywhere else went through these monumental changes I believe we could very well be doing the same things, we are no different, we are all human....its in our nature. This will flare up and go away. From what I have read, most people participating in these mobs/protests have never seen the trailer/movie. I'm not saying that there are not religious "nutjobs" out there because there are, and no faith is immune. I just think there is something more going on here then them being "crazy" Muslims, something I think as North Americans we are so quick to assume.

I think that is the line from PCers, and very naive. We're not talking about street gangs here (or perhaps at the outside, fringe white supremacist groups), which is more what you've just described. You really think of the Taliban and the Muslim Brotherhood simply as mostly young angry people using religion as an excuse??? Sorry, that simply is not true (while it is true that the majority of Muslims are moderate and normal, but are not, unfortunately, making a point of affecting change in the world at the moment; their extremist counterparts are). They BELIEVE in Jihad. Their entire beings are consumed by their extreme faith, and God is telling them that what they are doing is right. Yes, some of these people are recruited, and some of those people are young and angry, but don't let that fool you into thinking that are not sincere in their religious fervor once they're in it. Saying that they are mostly disaffected youth who are acting out because they're misguided is very simplistic, and, more than that, a very Western attitude.

As for these more random mob protests... they are men of all ages from many different walks of life (why they aren't women I assume is obvious), and they are pissed off at the west, and the smallest thing will set them off. Some of them are religious extremists, but many many others are making purely political statements. Those aren't the ones who killed the US diplomats the other day I bet.

Godfather.

whygohome wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/world/arab-leaders-reactions/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

CNN) -- The United States has been clear about how it thinks leaders should react to the anti-American violence in Libya, Yemen and Egypt this week. The chaos has been spurred on in part by a movie posted on YouTube that unflatteringly portrays Islam's Prophet Mohammed.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday there should be no debate that bloodshed in response to speech is not acceptable.

"Any responsible leader should be standing up now and drawing that line," she said.

But is it really that simple?



Godfather.

Simple? Not with these brainwashed, fanatical zealots who riot with murderous rage when their invisible man in the sky is "insulted" in a made for Youtube "film."

tell us how you really feel...don't hold back now !

Godfather.

PJ_Soul

Godfather. wrote:

whygohome wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/13/world/arab-leaders-reactions/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

CNN) -- The United States has been clear about how it thinks leaders should react to the anti-American violence in Libya, Yemen and Egypt this week. The chaos has been spurred on in part by a movie posted on YouTube that unflatteringly portrays Islam's Prophet Mohammed.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday there should be no debate that bloodshed in response to speech is not acceptable.

"Any responsible leader should be standing up now and drawing that line," she said.

But is it really that simple?



Godfather.

Simple? Not with these brainwashed, fanatical zealots who riot with murderous rage when their invisible man in the sky is "insulted" in a made for Youtube "film."

tell us how you really feel...don't hold back now !

Godfather.

Well, quite right. I don't understand this strange desire to pussyfoot around about the extremists as though we're afraid of offending someone. It's like being gentle about the KKK because we're afraid of insulting white people. :fp:

dignin

PJ_Soul wrote:

I think that is the line from PCers, and very naive. We're not talking about street gangs here (or perhaps at the outside, fringe white supremacist groups), which is more what you've just described. You really think of the Taliban and the Muslim Brotherhood simply as mostly young angry people using religion as an excuse??? Sorry, that simply is not true (while it is true that the majority of Muslims are moderate and normal, but are not, unfortunately, making a point of affecting change in the world at the moment; their extremist counterparts are). They BELIEVE in Jihad. Their entire beings are consumed by their extreme faith, and God is telling them that what they are doing is right. Yes, some of these people are recruited, and some of those people are young and angry, but don't let that fool you into thinking that are not sincere in their religious fervor once they're in it. Saying that they are mostly disaffected youth who are acting out because they're misguided is very simplistic, and, more than that, a very Western attitude.

As for these more random mob protests... they are men of all ages from many different walks of life (why they aren't women I assume is obvious), and they are pissed off at the west. Some of them are religious extremists, others are making purely political statements.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions here when we don't have all the facts. I think blaming this on being Muslim is very simplistic, but you have the right to believe that.

peacefrompaul

UN Peacekeepers camp was stormed today in Sinai... can't find an article... Al Jazeera is reporting.

PJ_Soul

dignin wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

I think that is the line from PCers, and very naive. We're not talking about street gangs here (or perhaps at the outside, fringe white supremacist groups), which is more what you've just described. You really think of the Taliban and the Muslim Brotherhood simply as mostly young angry people using religion as an excuse??? Sorry, that simply is not true (while it is true that the majority of Muslims are moderate and normal, but are not, unfortunately, making a point of affecting change in the world at the moment; their extremist counterparts are). They BELIEVE in Jihad. Their entire beings are consumed by their extreme faith, and God is telling them that what they are doing is right. Yes, some of these people are recruited, and some of those people are young and angry, but don't let that fool you into thinking that are not sincere in their religious fervor once they're in it. Saying that they are mostly disaffected youth who are acting out because they're misguided is very simplistic, and, more than that, a very Western attitude.

As for these more random mob protests... they are men of all ages from many different walks of life (why they aren't women I assume is obvious), and they are pissed off at the west. Some of them are religious extremists, others are making purely political statements.

I think you are making a lot of assumptions here when we don't have all the facts. I think blaming this on being Muslim is very simplistic, but you have the right to believe that.

:wtf: That's not what I'm doing At ALL. "Blaming this on being Muslim??" Whaaaat? And that you've made that statement after everything I've said shows that you are just on the defense for some reason without really paying attention to what I'm actually saying (with all due respect - sorry, I'm not feeling very tactful today) or what the actual situation is with MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. What exactly do you think Muslim extremists' motivations are if not their crazy fucked up religious beliefs? And saying that's "blaming it on being Muslim" just makes almost no sense at all to me, sorry. The blame is on their extremist religious beliefs (which encompasses a plethora of ideas about pretty much everything). Not the Muslim faith in general.

Also, there are a LOT of facts out there on this subject. It's not a mysterious topic.

PJ_Soul

peacefrompaul wrote:

UN Peacekeepers camp was stormed today in Sinai... can't find an article... Al Jazeera is reporting.

Crazy.

whygohome

PJ_Soul wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

tell us how you really feel...don't hold back now !

Godfather.

Well, quite right. I don't understand this strange desire to pussyfoot around about the extremists as though we're afraid of offending someone. It's like being gentle about the KKK because we're afraid of insulting white people. :fp:

It is an incredible double standard. I think ***Christopher Hitchens was right in his assessment that religious extremism, and he directed this at extremism in Islam, is a global threat to peace.

***this was seen in his initial support of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

A paraphrase of Hitchens' comments:

"The West needs to take the threat of fundamentalist, militant Islam more seriously, controversial British commentator Christopher Hitchens told a predominately older audience at the Geology Corner auditorium last night. ... “You don’t have to be paranoid, racist or a bigot to take alarm,” he said. “There is a civil war within Islam. We are not in a war on terror. We cannot be at war with an expression.” Hitchens, an editor for Vanity Fair, described himself as an atheist and issued a sharp rebuke of the Muslim prophet Muhammad. “Of course, he’s not a prophet,” he said. “He’s an epileptic plagiarist.” He said the Quran — Islam’s holiest book — was full of “evil fairly tales” that were “unimaginably recycled.” “It’s a boring plagiarism of the worst parts of Christianity and Judaism,” he added. "

PJ_Soul

whygohome wrote:

PJ_Soul wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

tell us how you really feel...don't hold back now !

Godfather.

Well, quite right. I don't understand this strange desire to pussyfoot around about the extremists as though we're afraid of offending someone. It's like being gentle about the KKK because we're afraid of insulting white people. :fp:

It is an incredible double standard. I think ***Christopher Hitchens was right in his assessment that religious extremism, and he directed this at extremism in Islam, is a global threat to peace.

***this was seen in his initial support of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan

A paraphrase of Hitchens' comments:

"The West needs to take the threat of fundamentalist, militant Islam more seriously, controversial British commentator Christopher Hitchens told a predominately older audience at the Geology Corner auditorium last night. ... “You don’t have to be paranoid, racist or a bigot to take alarm,” he said. “There is a civil war within Islam. We are not in a war on terror. We cannot be at war with an expression.” Hitchens, an editor for Vanity Fair, described himself as an atheist and issued a sharp rebuke of the Muslim prophet Muhammad. “Of course, he’s not a prophet,” he said. “He’s an epileptic plagiarist.” He said the Quran — Islam’s holiest book — was full of “evil fairly tales” that were “unimaginably recycled.” “It’s a boring plagiarism of the worst parts of Christianity and Judaism,” he added. "

Well, I agree with all of this... but would like to add that I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to religion. I think they are ALL crap and full of evil fairy tales. It just so happens that in this point in history, it's Muslims who are taking them into their hearts and acting upon them in the worst way.... The Islamic faith, even considered in a moderate way, is an enemy of women, even more so that Catholicism, and that's saying a lot.

I wish religion in general would wither and die. The world would be better off. That said, I do my best to take normal people's religious beliefs in stride and do my best to respect their apparent need for it in their lives.

whygohome

PJ_Soul wrote:

Well, I agree with all of this... but would like to add that I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to religion. I think they are ALL crap and full of evil fairy tales. It just so happens that in this point in history, it's Muslims who are taking them into their hearts and acting upon them in the worst way.... The Islamic faith, even considered in a moderate way, is an enemy of women, even more so that Catholicism, and that's saying a lot.

I wish religion in general would wither and die. The world would be better off. That said, I do my best to take normal people's religious beliefs in stride and do my best to respect their apparent need for it in their lives.

pandora

normal people :? struck me funny

Happy Friday all the normal people :fp: