CNN) -- The United States has been clear about how it thinks leaders should react to the anti-American violence in Libya, Yemen and Egypt this week. The chaos has been spurred on in part by a movie posted on YouTube that unflatteringly portrays Islam's Prophet Mohammed.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday there should be no debate that bloodshed in response to speech is not acceptable.
"Any responsible leader should be standing up now and drawing that line," she said.
But is it really that simple?
Godfather.
Simple? Not with these brainwashed, fanatical zealots who riot with murderous rage when their invisible man in the sky is "insulted" in a made for Youtube "film."
tell us how you really feel...don't hold back now !
CNN) -- The United States has been clear about how it thinks leaders should react to the anti-American violence in Libya, Yemen and Egypt this week. The chaos has been spurred on in part by a movie posted on YouTube that unflatteringly portrays Islam's Prophet Mohammed.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday there should be no debate that bloodshed in response to speech is not acceptable.
"Any responsible leader should be standing up now and drawing that line," she said.
But is it really that simple?
Godfather.
Simple? Not with these brainwashed, fanatical zealots who riot with murderous rage when their invisible man in the sky is "insulted" in a made for Youtube "film."
tell us how you really feel...don't hold back now !
Godfather.
Well, quite right. I don't understand this strange desire to pussyfoot around about the extremists as though we're afraid of offending someone. It's like being gentle about the KKK because we're afraid of insulting white people. :fp:
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I think that is the line from PCers, and very naive. We're not talking about street gangs here (or perhaps at the outside, fringe white supremacist groups), which is more what you've just described. You really think of the Taliban and the Muslim Brotherhood simply as mostly young angry people using religion as an excuse??? Sorry, that simply is not true (while it is true that the majority of Muslims are moderate and normal, but are not, unfortunately, making a point of affecting change in the world at the moment; their extremist counterparts are). They BELIEVE in Jihad. Their entire beings are consumed by their extreme faith, and God is telling them that what they are doing is right. Yes, some of these people are recruited, and some of those people are young and angry, but don't let that fool you into thinking that are not sincere in their religious fervor once they're in it. Saying that they are mostly disaffected youth who are acting out because they're misguided is very simplistic, and, more than that, a very Western attitude.
As for these more random mob protests... they are men of all ages from many different walks of life (why they aren't women I assume is obvious), and they are pissed off at the west. Some of them are religious extremists, others are making purely political statements.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions here when we don't have all the facts. I think blaming this on being Muslim is very simplistic, but you have the right to believe that.
I think that is the line from PCers, and very naive. We're not talking about street gangs here (or perhaps at the outside, fringe white supremacist groups), which is more what you've just described. You really think of the Taliban and the Muslim Brotherhood simply as mostly young angry people using religion as an excuse??? Sorry, that simply is not true (while it is true that the majority of Muslims are moderate and normal, but are not, unfortunately, making a point of affecting change in the world at the moment; their extremist counterparts are). They BELIEVE in Jihad. Their entire beings are consumed by their extreme faith, and God is telling them that what they are doing is right. Yes, some of these people are recruited, and some of those people are young and angry, but don't let that fool you into thinking that are not sincere in their religious fervor once they're in it. Saying that they are mostly disaffected youth who are acting out because they're misguided is very simplistic, and, more than that, a very Western attitude.
As for these more random mob protests... they are men of all ages from many different walks of life (why they aren't women I assume is obvious), and they are pissed off at the west. Some of them are religious extremists, others are making purely political statements.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions here when we don't have all the facts. I think blaming this on being Muslim is very simplistic, but you have the right to believe that.
:wtf: That's not what I'm doing At ALL. "Blaming this on being Muslim??" Whaaaat? And that you've made that statement after everything I've said shows that you are just on the defense for some reason without really paying attention to what I'm actually saying (with all due respect - sorry, I'm not feeling very tactful today) or what the actual situation is with MUSLIM EXTREMISTS. What exactly do you think Muslim extremists' motivations are if not their crazy fucked up religious beliefs? And saying that's "blaming it on being Muslim" just makes almost no sense at all to me, sorry. The blame is on their extremist religious beliefs (which encompasses a plethora of ideas about pretty much everything). Not the Muslim faith in general.
Also, there are a LOT of facts out there on this subject. It's not a mysterious topic.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
tell us how you really feel...don't hold back now !
Godfather.
Well, quite right. I don't understand this strange desire to pussyfoot around about the extremists as though we're afraid of offending someone. It's like being gentle about the KKK because we're afraid of insulting white people. :fp:
It is an incredible double standard. I think ***Christopher Hitchens was right in his assessment that religious extremism, and he directed this at extremism in Islam, is a global threat to peace.
***this was seen in his initial support of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
A paraphrase of Hitchens' comments:
"The West needs to take the threat of fundamentalist, militant Islam more seriously, controversial British commentator Christopher Hitchens told a predominately older audience at the Geology Corner auditorium last night. ... “You don’t have to be paranoid, racist or a bigot to take alarm,” he said. “There is a civil war within Islam. We are not in a war on terror. We cannot be at war with an expression.” Hitchens, an editor for Vanity Fair, described himself as an atheist and issued a sharp rebuke of the Muslim prophet Muhammad. “Of course, he’s not a prophet,” he said. “He’s an epileptic plagiarist.” He said the Quran — Islam’s holiest book — was full of “evil fairly tales” that were “unimaginably recycled.” “It’s a boring plagiarism of the worst parts of Christianity and Judaism,” he added. "
tell us how you really feel...don't hold back now !
Godfather.
Well, quite right. I don't understand this strange desire to pussyfoot around about the extremists as though we're afraid of offending someone. It's like being gentle about the KKK because we're afraid of insulting white people. :fp:
It is an incredible double standard. I think ***Christopher Hitchens was right in his assessment that religious extremism, and he directed this at extremism in Islam, is a global threat to peace.
***this was seen in his initial support of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
A paraphrase of Hitchens' comments:
"The West needs to take the threat of fundamentalist, militant Islam more seriously, controversial British commentator Christopher Hitchens told a predominately older audience at the Geology Corner auditorium last night. ... “You don’t have to be paranoid, racist or a bigot to take alarm,” he said. “There is a civil war within Islam. We are not in a war on terror. We cannot be at war with an expression.” Hitchens, an editor for Vanity Fair, described himself as an atheist and issued a sharp rebuke of the Muslim prophet Muhammad. “Of course, he’s not a prophet,” he said. “He’s an epileptic plagiarist.” He said the Quran — Islam’s holiest book — was full of “evil fairly tales” that were “unimaginably recycled.” “It’s a boring plagiarism of the worst parts of Christianity and Judaism,” he added. "
Well, I agree with all of this... but would like to add that I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to religion. I think they are ALL crap and full of evil fairy tales. It just so happens that in this point in history, it's Muslims who are taking them into their hearts and acting upon them in the worst way.... The Islamic faith, even considered in a moderate way, is an enemy of women, even more so that Catholicism, and that's saying a lot.
I wish religion in general would wither and die. The world would be better off. That said, I do my best to take normal people's religious beliefs in stride and do my best to respect their apparent need for it in their lives.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Well, I agree with all of this... but would like to add that I'm an equal opportunist when it comes to religion. I think they are ALL crap and full of evil fairy tales. It just so happens that in this point in history, it's Muslims who are taking them into their hearts and acting upon them in the worst way.... The Islamic faith, even considered in a moderate way, is an enemy of women, even more so that Catholicism, and that's saying a lot.
I wish religion in general would wither and die. The world would be better off. That said, I do my best to take normal people's religious beliefs in stride and do my best to respect their apparent need for it in their lives.
As opposed to religious extremists, which was clear from the context of my posts I think.
I don't know...
the clarity there, just not sure you can climb into people's heads to that point,
the point of declaring them not normal. Hating seems pretty normal these days, unfortunately.
Just made me make the family noise ... pfffft ... is all.
so do we think the bomb scares here in the US are linked?
or did someone just not study for a test today kidding
As opposed to religious extremists, which was clear from the context of my posts I think.
I don't know...
the clarity there, just not sure you can climb into people's heads to that point,
the point of declaring them not normal. Hating seems pretty normal these days, unfortunately.
Just made me make the family noise ... pfffft ... is all.
:roll: Whatever. If you're bad at grasping context, that's not my concern. Seems to me you're just itching for a petty argument that means nothing.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
As opposed to religious extremists, which was clear from the context of my posts I think.
I don't know...
the clarity there, just not sure you can climb into people's heads to that point,
the point of declaring them not normal. Hating seems pretty normal these days, unfortunately.
Just made me make the family noise ... pfffft ... is all.
:roll: Whatever. If you're bad at grasping context, that's not my concern. Seems to me you're just itching for a petty argument that means nothing.
No really just pointing out a generalization on your part, one I'm not agreeing with,
the angry and hateful are not necessarily extremists or not normal
they are just really angry and filled with pride for their own and hate for those
who disrespect. Now whose bad
No really just pointing out a generalization on your part, one I'm not agreeing with,
the angry and hateful are not necessarily extremists or not normal
they are just really angry and filled with pride for their own and hate for those
who disrespect. Now whose bad
If those assholes are "normal" then we are in very big trouble. Good thing they are not.
I don't know...
the clarity there, just not sure you can climb into people's heads to that point,
the point of declaring them not normal. Hating seems pretty normal these days, unfortunately.
Just made me make the family noise ... pfffft ... is all.
:roll: Whatever. If you're bad at grasping context, that's not my concern. Seems to me you're just itching for a petty argument that means nothing.
No really just pointing out a generalization on your part, one I'm not agreeing with,
the angry and hateful are not necessarily extremists or not normal
they are just really angry and filled with pride for their own and hate for those
who disrespect. Now whose bad
Okay, well it wasn't a generalization as I explained to you, so there you go. But leave it to you to defend extremist murderers.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
No really just pointing out a generalization on your part, one I'm not agreeing with,
the angry and hateful are not necessarily extremists or not normal
they are just really angry and filled with pride for their own and hate for those
who disrespect. Now whose bad
If those assholes are "normal" then we are in very big trouble. Good thing they are not.
They seem pretty normal to me.
What's with the cops throwing rocks at them too...
rocks?
Okaaaayyyy, rather than let someone derail the thread, leading to it getting locked, anyone else have any thoughts on the subject, outside of the semantics of the word normal? I think that all of us but one can agree that murderous religious extremists are not normal or justified, so... maybe this discussion has come to a rapid end?
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
:roll: Whatever. If you're bad at grasping context, that's not my concern. Seems to me you're just itching for a petty argument that means nothing.
No really just pointing out a generalization on your part, one I'm not agreeing with,
the angry and hateful are not necessarily extremists or not normal
they are just really angry and filled with pride for their own and hate for those
who disrespect. Now whose bad
Okay, well it wasn't a generalization as I explained to you, so there you go. But leave it to you to defend extremist murderers.
If you look at my other posts you will see I do not defend their actions.
Seems you not only assume about the not normal you assume
about other posters also. :fp:
We won't go into trying to understand others because this might be a concept
you don't understand...
do you have trouble with defend and understand? for me they are not interchangeable at all.
Though I do not defend nor condone those who are resorting to violence, I understand it.
And no I do not think they are not normal, quite the contrary,
they are fighting an enemy, a disrespectful one, so disrespectful they are willing to kill.
No really just pointing out a generalization on your part, one I'm not agreeing with,
the angry and hateful are not necessarily extremists or not normal
they are just really angry and filled with pride for their own and hate for those
who disrespect. Now whose bad
Okay, well it wasn't a generalization as I explained to you, so there you go. But leave it to you to defend extremist murderers.
If you look at my other posts you will see I do not defend their actions.
Seems you not only assume about the not normal you assume
about other posters also. :fp:
We won't go into trying to understand others because this might be a concept
you don't understand...
do you have trouble with defend and understand? for me they are not interchangeable at all.
Though I do not defend nor condone those who are resorting to violence, I understand it.
And no I do not think they are not normal, quite the contrary,
they are fighting an enemy, a disrespectful one, so disrespectful they are willing to kill.
Yeah. Their main enemy being non-Muslims, namely Jews and their allies. It's totally understandable that they would want all Jews and their allies wiped off the face of the planet. I see where you're coming from now.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yeah. Their main enemy being non-Muslims, namely Jews and their allies. It's totally understandable that they would want all Jews and their allies wiped off the face of the planet. I see where you're coming from now.
Yeah. Their main enemy being non-Muslims, namely Jews and their allies. It's totally understandable that they would want all Jews and their allies wiped off the face of the planet. I see where you're coming from now.
actually I think not ...
I'm in a sarcastic kind of mood today.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Yeah. Their main enemy being non-Muslims, namely Jews and their allies. It's totally understandable that they would want all Jews and their allies wiped off the face of the planet. I see where you're coming from now.
actually I think not ...
I'm in a sarcastic kind of mood today.
I pity your folk
sarcasm is catchy but so is kindness ... enjoy your Friday
Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki denounced the film as "insulting" and "racist" but called on Muslims not to react with violence.
"The natural response is to refrain from resorting to violence and demonstrate the principles of Islam and its civilized values," he said in a statement on Thursday.
Well, holy shit ... a leader has spoken up. I don't know how much juice he has, but it's a start. Hopefully one of his bodyguards doesn't gun him down like the Pakistan governor who suggested the blasphemy laws should end.
Now we need to see leaders in the religious community speak up as well.
1-Withdraw all monetary help
2-Invade and take over Egypt
3- Nuke it get ride of all of them ..
4- Be diplomatic
please feel free to add to the list of things you would do as President of the biggest power house in the world ..
5- Find the nut case film maker and asshole florida pastor and tell them to shut the fuck up once and for all ...
Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki denounced the film as "insulting" and "racist" but called on Muslims not to react with violence.
"The natural response is to refrain from resorting to violence and demonstrate the principles of Islam and its civilized values," he said in a statement on Thursday.
Well, holy shit ... a leader has spoken up. I don't know how much juice he has, but it's a start. Hopefully one of his bodyguards doesn't gun him down like the Pakistan governor who suggested the blasphemy laws should end.
Now we need to see leaders in the religious community speak up as well.
Absolutely. It's something... we'll see if anyone who is flipping out will listen. Since their actions seem rather beyond reason, I am somewhat doubtful that a voice of reason will get through very well, but I guess you never know.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
1-Withdraw all monetary help
2-Invade and take over Egypt
3- Nuke it get ride of all of them ..
4- Be diplomatic
please feel free to add to the list of things you would do as President of the biggest power house in the world ..
5- Find the nut case film maker and asshole florida pastor and tell them to shut the fuck up once and for all ...
I expect number #4, at least for the time being.
#3 ain't gonna happen obviously, and there is no way he would start another war just because some citizens freaked out for a few days. Same for #1. What's going on in Egypt is a big deal, but not THAT big a deal, considering how the region is constantly in some kind of turmoil and a state of outrage over something or other that insulted Mohammed. The consequences of this particular freak out were worse than usual, but not the circumstances. Plus, they suspect that it was just an excuse for extremists to attack the Embassy - terrorists completely separated from the Egyptian government - so no ones going to attack the nation/government because some fuckers went rogue.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
Godfather.
I think you are making a lot of assumptions here when we don't have all the facts. I think blaming this on being Muslim is very simplistic, but you have the right to believe that.
Also, there are a LOT of facts out there on this subject. It's not a mysterious topic.
It is an incredible double standard. I think ***Christopher Hitchens was right in his assessment that religious extremism, and he directed this at extremism in Islam, is a global threat to peace.
***this was seen in his initial support of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan
A paraphrase of Hitchens' comments:
"The West needs to take the threat of fundamentalist, militant Islam more seriously, controversial British commentator Christopher Hitchens told a predominately older audience at the Geology Corner auditorium last night. ... “You don’t have to be paranoid, racist or a bigot to take alarm,” he said. “There is a civil war within Islam. We are not in a war on terror. We cannot be at war with an expression.” Hitchens, an editor for Vanity Fair, described himself as an atheist and issued a sharp rebuke of the Muslim prophet Muhammad. “Of course, he’s not a prophet,” he said. “He’s an epileptic plagiarist.” He said the Quran — Islam’s holiest book — was full of “evil fairly tales” that were “unimaginably recycled.” “It’s a boring plagiarism of the worst parts of Christianity and Judaism,” he added. "
I wish religion in general would wither and die. The world would be better off. That said, I do my best to take normal people's religious beliefs in stride and do my best to respect their apparent need for it in their lives.
Happy Friday all the normal people :fp:
the clarity there, just not sure you can climb into people's heads to that point,
the point of declaring them not normal. Hating seems pretty normal these days, unfortunately.
Just made me make the family noise ... pfffft ... is all.
so do we think the bomb scares here in the US are linked?
or did someone just not study for a test today
the angry and hateful are not necessarily extremists or not normal
they are just really angry and filled with pride for their own and hate for those
who disrespect. Now whose bad
If those assholes are "normal" then we are in very big trouble. Good thing they are not.
What's with the cops throwing rocks at them too...
rocks?
Is this normal?
Seems you not only assume about the not normal you assume
about other posters also. :fp:
We won't go into trying to understand others because this might be a concept
you don't understand...
do you have trouble with defend and understand?
for me they are not interchangeable at all.
Though I do not defend nor condone those who are resorting to violence, I understand it.
And no I do not think they are not normal, quite the contrary,
they are fighting an enemy, a disrespectful one, so disrespectful they are willing to kill.
sarcasm is catchy but so is kindness ... enjoy your Friday
You have a nice weekend too!
"The natural response is to refrain from resorting to violence and demonstrate the principles of Islam and its civilized values," he said in a statement on Thursday.
http://news.yahoo.com/iraqi-militia-threatens-u-interests-over-film-094848079.html
....
Well, holy shit ... a leader has spoken up. I don't know how much juice he has, but it's a start. Hopefully one of his bodyguards doesn't gun him down like the Pakistan governor who suggested the blasphemy laws should end.
Now we need to see leaders in the religious community speak up as well.
1-Withdraw all monetary help
2-Invade and take over Egypt
3- Nuke it get ride of all of them ..
4- Be diplomatic
please feel free to add to the list of things you would do as President of the biggest power house in the world ..
5- Find the nut case film maker and asshole florida pastor and tell them to shut the fuck up once and for all ...
#3 ain't gonna happen obviously, and there is no way he would start another war just because some citizens freaked out for a few days. Same for #1. What's going on in Egypt is a big deal, but not THAT big a deal, considering how the region is constantly in some kind of turmoil and a state of outrage over something or other that insulted Mohammed. The consequences of this particular freak out were worse than usual, but not the circumstances. Plus, they suspect that it was just an excuse for extremists to attack the Embassy - terrorists completely separated from the Egyptian government - so no ones going to attack the nation/government because some fuckers went rogue.