MoonPig, this topic was /is about the muslims actions in Cairo and I have stated I'm tired of their shit, The Christain faith is always attacked on this forum by a few people and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forun the first thing some train members do is compare them to Christains and in a round about way condone the actions of these people in Cairo and it gets a little tiring, so have at it and say what you will.
Godfather.
I've condoned nothing, those involved are scum, again who happen to be Muslims.
As a sidenote, the Muslim faith is always attacked by some on this forum and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forum. (see I literally just copied what you said and changed one word, and hey presto it applies to you - perspective Godfather, perspective)
If you're tired go to sleep, if you want to get involved in any type of debate then realise that there are 2 sides to every story, and neither side might be in line with your opinion.
awesome man ! that was great (perspective)
but still I will have keep my prespective opinion, thanks for the schooling tho.
MoonPig, this topic was /is about the muslims actions in Cairo and I have stated I'm tired of their shit, The Christain faith is always attacked on this forum by a few people and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forun the first thing some train members do is compare them to Christains and in a round about way condone the actions of these people in Cairo and it gets a little tiring, so have at it and say what you will.
Godfather.
I've condoned nothing, those involved are scum, again who happen to be Muslims.
As a sidenote, the Muslim faith is always attacked by some on this forum and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forum. (see I literally just copied what you said and changed one word, and hey presto it applies to you - perspective Godfather, perspective)
If you're tired go to sleep, if you want to get involved in any type of debate then realise that there are 2 sides to every story, and neither side might be in line with your opinion.
awesome man ! that was great (perspective) but still I will have keep my prespective opinion, thanks for the schooling tho.
Godfather.
Condesend and deflect, without addressing any of the points raised, why am I not suprised.
Tell you what, if you do ever want to have a real discussion around these type of issues let me know. Until that point though, I don't see why you would want to throw out such opinions without any substance what so ever. It comes across as very close minded and ignorant.
However the bolded statement above is another story. Not sure what you are trying to say there, if you want though please feel free to try again.
MoonPig, this topic was /is about the muslims actions in Cairo and I have stated I'm tired of their shit, The Christain faith is always attacked on this forum by a few people and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forun the first thing some train members do is compare them to Christains and in a round about way condone the actions of these people in Cairo and it gets a little tiring, so have at it and say what you will.
Godfather.
I've condoned nothing, those involved are scum, again who happen to be Muslims.
As a sidenote, the Muslim faith is always attacked by some on this forum and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forum. (see I literally just copied what you said and changed one word, and hey presto it applies to you - perspective Godfather, perspective)
If you're tired go to sleep, if you want to get involved in any type of debate then realise that there are 2 sides to every story, and neither side might be in line with your opinion.
I really don't get this "happen to be Muslim" thing. The fact that they're Muslim is the entire point behind their actions. That they're Muslim is not just a coincidence, or irrelevant to the issue. Muslim extremism is a HUGE problem in the world right now. Saying so doesn't not mean you are crapping on the head of every single Muslim in the world, but it's clear, as many Muslims would tell you, that there are PROFOUND issues within the Muslim faith that are lending to these kinds of extremist actions.
What I think, and I've discussed this with Muslims that I know, is that the moderate Muslim majority needs to become MUCH more involved in condemning extremists. As it stands now, even moderates feel obligated to first give their allegiance to their faith, and that leads to a sever hesitation to speak against extremists who act in the name of Islam. The Muslim community needs to stand up and act, and so far, they haven't in any significant way that will stem the growth of the extremist minority. I mentioned before, it's estimated that it's now 30% of the Middle Eastern community that could be considered to have extremist views. That is a HUGE number considering that they are the ones who stand up and take action, while the other 70% do very little to nothing to really condemn or stand up against this movement, partly because of fear, since these people will kill other Muslims who aren't on board, and partly because of an ingrained sense that they need to side with those of their own faith and with the ideas of Imams, many of whom are extremist themselves. And that isn't aided by the fact that even moderates still feel pretty pissed off at the West and the US in particular. It is a scary trend, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they are Muslim, because that's what's driving them, it's through their faith that they spread the word, it's because of their faith that others don't fight it, and it's the skewed ideas of their faith that are fueling emotions. They don't just "happen to be" Muslim. It is the number one defining factor of their actions.
And a final note: this is the topic at hand here. I don't get why bringing up atrocities committed in the name of Christianity or any other religion comes into play. Talking about this doesn't downplay the actions of these folks, and it doesn't suggest that Christians have been any better in the past (but let's face it - at this time in the history, the religious group that is at the forefront of scary-ass extremism is that of Islam, and the movement is growing, not shrinking). It's just not what we're talking about here. This is not a thread against every Muslim person. It's a thread about a serious and growing problem of Islamic extremism that is not being dealt with by the moderates of that faith, which is why it continues to grow. I think that some of the actions by the US and others are stoking the flames is an absolute given... but some stupid YouTube video made by a freak is not one of those actions.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
I really don't get this "happen to be Muslim" thing. The fact that they're Muslim is the entire point behind their actions. That they're Muslim is not just a coincidence, or irrelevant to the issue. Muslim extremism is a HUGE problem in the world right now. Saying so doesn't not mean you are crapping on the head of every single Muslim in the world, but it's clear, as many Muslims would tell you, that there are PROFOUND issues within the Muslim faith that are lending to these kinds of extremist actions.
What I think, and I've discussed this with Muslims that I know, is that the moderate Muslim majority needs to become MUCH more involved in condemning extremists. As it stands now, even moderates feel obligated to first give their allegiance to their faith, and that leads to a sever hesitation to speak against extremists who act in the name of Islam. The Muslim community needs to stand up and act, and so far, they haven't in any significant way that will stem the growth of the extremist minority. I mentioned before, it's estimated that it's now 30% of the Middle Eastern community that could be considered to have extremist views. That is a HUGE number considering that they are the ones who stand up and take action, while the other 70% do very little to nothing to really condemn or stand up against this movement, partly because of fear, since these people will kill other Muslims who aren't on board, and partly because of an ingrained sense that they need to side with those of their own faith and with the ideas of Imams, many of whom are extremist themselves. And that isn't aided by the fact that even moderates still feel pretty pissed off at the West and the US in particular. It is a scary trend, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they are Muslim, because that's what's driving them, it's through their faith that they spread the word, it's because of their faith that others don't fight it, and it's the skewed ideas of their faith that are fueling emotions. They don't just "happen to be" Muslim. It is the number one defining factor of their actions.
And a final note: this is the topic at hand here. I don't get why bringing up atrocities committed in the name of Christianity or any other religion comes into play. Talking about this doesn't downplay the actions of these folks, and it doesn't suggest that Christians have been any better in the past (but let's face it - at this time in the history, the religious group that is at the forefront of scary-ass extremism is that of Islam, and the movement is growing, not shrinking). It's just not what we're talking about here. This is not a thread against every Muslim person. It's a thread about a serious and growing problem of Islamic extremism that is not being dealt with by the moderates of that faith, which is why it continues to grow. I think that some of the actions by the US and others are stoking the flames is an absolute given... but some stupid YouTube video made by a freak is not one of those actions.
I really don't get this "happen to be Muslim" thing. The fact that they're Muslim is the entire point behind their actions. That they're Muslim is not just a coincidence, or irrelevant to the issue. Muslim extremism is a HUGE problem in the world right now.
Yeah I agree. I already said as much. But no answer, just keeps touting this really weird coincidence that they just happen to be muslim. Now way I buying it. Perhaps they just happen to be wearing jeans that day, but being muslim is a way bigger part then "just happen".
MoonPig, this topic was /is about the muslims actions in Cairo and I have stated I'm tired of their shit, The Christain faith is always attacked on this forum by a few people and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forun the first thing some train members do is compare them to Christains and in a round about way condone the actions of these people in Cairo and it gets a little tiring, so have at it and say what you will.
Godfather.
I've condoned nothing, those involved are scum, again who happen to be Muslims.
As a sidenote, the Muslim faith is always attacked by some on this forum and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forum. (see I literally just copied what you said and changed one word, and hey presto it applies to you - perspective Godfather, perspective)
If you're tired go to sleep, if you want to get involved in any type of debate then realise that there are 2 sides to every story, and neither side might be in line with your opinion.
I really don't get this "happen to be Muslim" thing. The fact that they're Muslim is the entire point behind their actions. That they're Muslim is not just a coincidence, or irrelevant to the issue. Muslim extremism is a HUGE problem in the world right now. Saying so doesn't not mean you are crapping on the head of every single Muslim in the world, but it's clear, as many Muslims would tell you, that there are PROFOUND issues within the Muslim faith that are lending to these kinds of extremist actions.
What I think, and I've discussed this with Muslims that I know, is that the moderate Muslim majority needs to become MUCH more involved in condemning extremists. As it stands now, even moderates feel obligated to first give their allegiance to their faith, and that leads to a sever hesitation to speak against extremists who act in the name of Islam. The Muslim community needs to stand up and act, and so far, they haven't in any significant way that will stem the growth of the extremist minority. I mentioned before, it's estimated that it's now 30% of the Middle Eastern community that could be considered to have extremist views. That is a HUGE number considering that they are the ones who stand up and take action, while the other 70% do very little to nothing to really condemn or stand up against this movement, partly because of fear, since these people will kill other Muslims who aren't on board, and partly because of an ingrained sense that they need to side with those of their own faith and with the ideas of Imams, many of whom are extremist themselves. And that isn't aided by the fact that even moderates still feel pretty pissed off at the West and the US in particular. It is a scary trend, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they are Muslim, because that's what's driving them, it's through their faith that they spread the word, it's because of their faith that others don't fight it, and it's the skewed ideas of their faith that are fueling emotions. They don't just "happen to be" Muslim. It is the number one defining factor of their actions.
And a final note: this is the topic at hand here. I don't get why bringing up atrocities committed in the name of Christianity or any other religion comes into play. Talking about this doesn't downplay the actions of these folks, and it doesn't suggest that Christians have been any better in the past (but let's face it - at this time in the history, the religious group that is at the forefront of scary-ass extremism is that of Islam, and the movement is growing, not shrinking). It's just not what we're talking about here. This is not a thread against every Muslim person. It's a thread about a serious and growing problem of Islamic extremism that is not being dealt with by the moderates of that faith, which is why it continues to grow. I think that some of the actions by the US and others are stoking the flames is an absolute given... but some stupid YouTube video made by a freak is not one of those actions.
I really don't get this "happen to be Muslim" thing. The fact that they're Muslim is the entire point behind their actions. That they're Muslim is not just a coincidence, or irrelevant to the issue. Muslim extremism is a HUGE problem in the world right now. Saying so doesn't not mean you are crapping on the head of every single Muslim in the world, but it's clear, as many Muslims would tell you, that there are PROFOUND issues within the Muslim faith that are lending to these kinds of extremist actions.
What I think, and I've discussed this with Muslims that I know, is that the moderate Muslim majority needs to become MUCH more involved in condemning extremists. As it stands now, even moderates feel obligated to first give their allegiance to their faith, and that leads to a sever hesitation to speak against extremists who act in the name of Islam. The Muslim community needs to stand up and act, and so far, they haven't in any significant way that will stem the growth of the extremist minority. I mentioned before, it's estimated that it's now 30% of the Middle Eastern community that could be considered to have extremist views. That is a HUGE number considering that they are the ones who stand up and take action, while the other 70% do very little to nothing to really condemn or stand up against this movement, partly because of fear, since these people will kill other Muslims who aren't on board, and partly because of an ingrained sense that they need to side with those of their own faith and with the ideas of Imams, many of whom are extremist themselves. And that isn't aided by the fact that even moderates still feel pretty pissed off at the West and the US in particular. It is a scary trend, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they are Muslim, because that's what's driving them, it's through their faith that they spread the word, it's because of their faith that others don't fight it, and it's the skewed ideas of their faith that are fueling emotions. They don't just "happen to be" Muslim. It is the number one defining factor of their actions.
And a final note: this is the topic at hand here. I don't get why bringing up atrocities committed in the name of Christianity or any other religion comes into play. Talking about this doesn't downplay the actions of these folks, and it doesn't suggest that Christians have been any better in the past (but let's face it - at this time in the history, the religious group that is at the forefront of scary-ass extremism is that of Islam, and the movement is growing, not shrinking). It's just not what we're talking about here. This is not a thread against every Muslim person. It's a thread about a serious and growing problem of Islamic extremism that is not being dealt with by the moderates of that faith, which is why it continues to grow. I think that some of the actions by the US and others are stoking the flames is an absolute given... but some stupid YouTube video made by a freak is not one of those actions.
Obama addressed the United States' relationship with Egypt on Wednesday night in an interview with Telemundo.
"I don't think that we would consider them [Egypt] an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy," Obama said.
Obama characterized the relationship with Egypt as a "work in progress," expressing hope that the fledgling Egyptian government would be "responsive" to U.S. security concerns.
.....
So ... if they are not an ally ... why are we giving them billions of dollars?
Obama addressed the United States' relationship with Egypt on Wednesday night in an interview with Telemundo.
"I don't think that we would consider them [Egypt] an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy," Obama said.
Obama characterized the relationship with Egypt as a "work in progress," expressing hope that the fledgling Egyptian government would be "responsive" to U.S. security concerns.
.....
So ... if they are not an ally ... why are we giving them billions of dollars?
:fp:
To keep them from becoming an enemy.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
MoonPig, this topic was /is about the muslims actions in Cairo and I have stated I'm tired of their shit, The Christain faith is always attacked on this forum by a few people and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forun the first thing some train members do is compare them to Christains and in a round about way condone the actions of these people in Cairo and it gets a little tiring, so have at it and say what you will.
Godfather.
I've condoned nothing, those involved are scum, again who happen to be Muslims.
As a sidenote, the Muslim faith is always attacked by some on this forum and when ever things like the attacks in Cairo are brought up on this forum. (see I literally just copied what you said and changed one word, and hey presto it applies to you - perspective Godfather, perspective)
If you're tired go to sleep, if you want to get involved in any type of debate then realise that there are 2 sides to every story, and neither side might be in line with your opinion.
I really don't get this "happen to be Muslim" thing. The fact that they're Muslim is the entire point behind their actions. That they're Muslim is not just a coincidence, or irrelevant to the issue. Muslim extremism is a HUGE problem in the world right now. Saying so doesn't not mean you are crapping on the head of every single Muslim in the world, but it's clear, as many Muslims would tell you, that there are PROFOUND issues within the Muslim faith that are lending to these kinds of extremist actions.
What I think, and I've discussed this with Muslims that I know, is that the moderate Muslim majority needs to become MUCH more involved in condemning extremists. As it stands now, even moderates feel obligated to first give their allegiance to their faith, and that leads to a sever hesitation to speak against extremists who act in the name of Islam. The Muslim community needs to stand up and act, and so far, they haven't in any significant way that will stem the growth of the extremist minority. I mentioned before, it's estimated that it's now 30% of the Middle Eastern community that could be considered to have extremist views. That is a HUGE number considering that they are the ones who stand up and take action, while the other 70% do very little to nothing to really condemn or stand up against this movement, partly because of fear, since these people will kill other Muslims who aren't on board, and partly because of an ingrained sense that they need to side with those of their own faith and with the ideas of Imams, many of whom are extremist themselves. And that isn't aided by the fact that even moderates still feel pretty pissed off at the West and the US in particular. It is a scary trend, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they are Muslim, because that's what's driving them, it's through their faith that they spread the word, it's because of their faith that others don't fight it, and it's the skewed ideas of their faith that are fueling emotions. They don't just "happen to be" Muslim. It is the number one defining factor of their actions.
And a final note: this is the topic at hand here. I don't get why bringing up atrocities committed in the name of Christianity or any other religion comes into play. Talking about this doesn't downplay the actions of these folks, and it doesn't suggest that Christians have been any better in the past (but let's face it - at this time in the history, the religious group that is at the forefront of scary-ass extremism is that of Islam, and the movement is growing, not shrinking). It's just not what we're talking about here. This is not a thread against every Muslim person. It's a thread about a serious and growing problem of Islamic extremism that is not being dealt with by the moderates of that faith, which is why it continues to grow. I think that some of the actions by the US and others are stoking the flames is an absolute given... but some stupid YouTube video made by a freak is not one of those actions.
Thank you Moonpig for injecting some knowledge on this thread. There are 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide. The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The “extremists” who are kindly called “orthodox” in Judaism and other faiths, make up a very tiny minority. (I could easily point out sexist, murderous cases, just reported recently by members of Orthodox Judaism and Christanity, but the point of many of these posts is not sexism or murder) If the criminals who killed the ambassador had “EVERTYHING” to do with them being Muslim, then exactly how are the other 99 percent of Muslim practicing their faith, are you saying that have it wrong? So why the urgent need for the moderates to speak up, if you have already tried and judged their faith?
Also the thinly veiled Islamophobic posts on this thread are concentrated on the Arab Muslims, because the litmus test is regarding Israel. The two Muslim countries closest to Israel are Egypt and Jordan, Egypt is adhering to the peace it made with Israel forty years ago and Jordan could not care less either about Israel or the Palestinians. There is more dissent and criticism on the actions of Israel within Israel than in the US.
The US only acts in interest of the US, Saudi Arabia and the US have very close relations. The US funded the Taliban in Afghanistan when it interested them, and let them go when it interested in them. They don’t care about “extremists” , dictators, orthodox, etc. If it is in the interest of the US, then they will support them.
Thank you Moonpig for injecting some knowledge on this thread. There are 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide. The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The “extremists” who are kindly called “orthodox” in Judaism and other faiths, make up a very tiny minority. (I could easily point out sexist, murderous cases, just reported recently by members of Orthodox Judaism and Christanity, but the point of many of these posts is not sexism or murder) If the criminals who killed the ambassador had “EVERTYHING” to do with them being Muslim, then exactly how are the other 99 percent of Muslim practicing their faith, are you saying that have it wrong? So why the urgent need for the moderates to speak up, if you have already tried and judged their faith?
Also the thinly veiled Islamophobic posts on this thread are concentrated on the Arab Muslims, because the litmus test is regarding Israel. The two Muslim countries closest to Israel are Egypt and Jordan, Egypt is adhering to the peace it made with Israel forty years ago and Jordan could not care less either about Israel or the Palestinians. There is more dissent and criticism on the actions of Israel within Israel than in the US.
The US only acts in interest of the US, Saudi Arabia and the US have very close relations. The US funded the Taliban in Afghanistan when it interested them, and let them go when it interested in them. They don’t care about “extremists” , dictators, orthodox, etc. If it is in the interest of the US, then they will support them.
I'm not sure why the is hard to understand and why people feel they need t defend Muslims.
The facts, they did this because of their faith. The ae Muslim. It was the reason.
Now that does not mean all Muslims ae bad or are religious nutjobs any more than the stupidity of a certain stupid church here in the US means all Christians are bad or religious nutjobs. Clear?
No need to defend Muslims as a whole, no one is attacking them.
you ever heard of a Christain suiside bomber,or some group of Christains learning to fly a plane then fly it in to builings in New York or Christains sending videos of themselfs to media outlets decapitating a muslims and screaming death to America,
you guys can cry about this shit all you want but the bottom line is still the same, you can keep comparing muslim radicals to Chrisrtains radicals if that makes you feel better...that's o.k by me.
Police say the Norwegian suspect in the two attacks that left at least 92 dead described himself as a fundamentalist Christian, as evidence emerged that he had flirted with the political far-right.
The 32-year-old, previously unknown to police, was arrested on Friday after a bomb blast in central Oslo killed seven people and a shooting rampage at a youth camp near the capital left at least 85 dead and scores wounded.
Local media have identified him as Anders Behring Breivik, whose picture on his Facebook page shows a man with longish blonde hair and piercing eyes.
The posting lists his religion as "fundamentalist Christian" and his political opinions lean "to the right", police said.
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"He has certain political traits that lean to the right and are anti-Muslim but it is too early to say if that was the motive for his actions," police commissioner Sevinung Sponheim told public television NRK on Saturday.
In less than two hours on Friday the suspect allegedly carried out two attacks that appeared to target the ruling Labour Party.
The first strike was a bomb attack near the offices of Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg and those of other ministers in the heart of Oslo's government quarter.
In the second attack, about 40km from the capital, the suspect allegedly masqueraded as a police officer before opening fire on young people attending an island camp run for Labour's youth wing.
The head of the populist right-wing Progress Party (FrP), Siv Jensen, said on Saturday she was sorry to learn that the suspect had been a party member between 1999 and 2006 and for several years a leader in its youth movement.
"Those who knew the suspect when he was a member of the party say that he seemed like a modest person that seldom engaged himself in the political discussions," she said in a statement on the party's website.
He was also a member of a Swedish neo-Nazi Internet forum named Nordisk.
Nordisk hosts discussions rangingfrom white power music to political strategies to crush democracy, according to the Stockholm-based Expo foundation that monitors far-right activity.
Behring Breivik's Facebook profile says he is "conservative", "Christian", and "single", interested in hunting and video games such as World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2.
On an Internet debate site http://www.document.no in 2009, he expressed his frustrations with the Progress Party. In their desperate attempt to satisfy multicultural expectations and "the suicidal ideals of humanism, they have thrown the baby out with the bath water", he wrote.
He also said he was the manager of an organic farm, Breivik Geofarm, which would have given him access to raw materials that could be used to make explosives.
He reportedly bought six tonnes of fertiliser in May, an agriculture cooperative said.
Tax records, which are open to the public in Norway, show that the suspect listed no income for 2009 and modest sums in the previous years.
On his Twitter account, Behring Breivik posted only one message, dated July 17, in English adapted from a quote by British philosopher John Stuart Mill.
"One person with a belief is equal to a force of 100,000 who have only interests," he wrote
Doctor Killed During Abortion Protest
By William Booth
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 11, 1993; Page A01
PENSACOLA, FLA., MARCH 10 -- A doctor was shot to death outside his abortion clinic here today when a man who prayed for the physician's soul stepped forward from a group of antiabortion protesters and opened fire, according to police and witnesses.
David Gunn, 47, was shot three times in the back after he got out of his car at the Pensacola Women's Medical Services clinic, according to Pensacola police. He died during surgery at a local hospital.
While abortion providers routinely are threatened with death, and their clinics have been bombed and vandalized, the killing here is believed to be the first in the nation's ongoing struggle over abortion.
This morning, police initially were called to simply squelch an antiabortion protest at the clinic. When they arrived, police said, Michael Frederick Griffin, 31, of Pensacola told them he had just shot Gunn.
Griffin, dressed in a gray suit, quietly surrendered to police, who said they took his .38-caliber snub-nosed revolver. Griffin was arrested and charged with murder and is being held in Escambia County jail.
Don Treshman, head of the antiabortion group Rescue America in Houston, told the Associated Press that Griffin yelled "Don't kill any more babies," just before the shooting this morning.
Treshman said several members of his group attended the protest and called him afterward to relate details of the incident.
Steve Powell, an employee at an office park where the clinic is located, told reporters that Griffin singled out the physician as his target, chased him and shot him at point-blank range.
Powell said the protesters acted strangely after the shooting. "It looked like they were just happy," he said.
On Sunday, at a service attended by protest organizers and participants, Griffin reportedly asked the congregation to pray for Gunn's soul.
"He asked that the congregation pray, and asked that we would agree with him that Dr. Gunn would give his life to Jesus Christ," said John Burt, an organizer of today's protest and a lay preacher at Whitfield Assembly of God Church.
"He wanted him to stop doing things the Bible says is wrong and start doing what the Bible says was right," Burt told reporters.
"There's talk of making protesting abortion clinics a felony. If you start talking about that, people are just going to find other ways of dealing with it," Burt said.
On Christmas Day 1984, two doctors' offices and a clinic in Pensacola were bombed by abortion foes who were convicted and imprisoned.
Burt emphasized that the protesters today had no intention of harming the doctor.
Gunn opened his clinic here about a month ago. He apparently commuted here from Eufaula, Ala., which is several hundred miles away. His new clinic, nestled among offices for lawyers, doctors and accountants, bore no signs and simply advised patients at Suite 46 to come upstairs and sign in.
Before Gunn arrived, there was only one clinic performing abortions in Pensacola, although there are at least three facilities that offer "abortion counseling" to women, in which antiabortion advocates try to persuade them to seek alternatives to terminating their pregnancies.
It is common for antiabortion activists to pray, chant, whistle and scream at abortion providers and women as they enter abortion clinics. The protesters may ask the women to consider alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, and often accompany their appeals with photos of aborted fetuses. At the Pensacola clinic today, protesters held up signs that said, "David Gunn Kills Babies."
The Supreme Court ruled in January that federal judges cannot stop protesters from trying to block access to clinics, although antiabortion protesters routinely are arrested for trespassing on private property. Congress is considering legislation that would outlaw the protests.
"We call on Congress to immediately enact the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances bill to combat antichoice terrorism and enact the Freedom of Choice Act to guarantee American women their legal right to choose," National Abortion Rights Action League President Kate Michelman said in a statement after the shooting.
Gunn had been receiving death threats for several years but they had recently become more blatant and vicious, Susan Hill, who employed the doctor at some of the National Women's Health Organization clinics she runs in the Southeast, told AP. The Pensacola facility was not one of hers.
Last summer in Montgomery, Ala., an old-fashioned "wanted" poster of Gunn was distributed at a rally for Operation Rescue leader Randall Terry, AP said. The poster included a picture of Gunn, his home phone number and other identifying information. The posters were designed to encourage abortion opponents to harass doctors working at clinics operated by Gunn in Alabama.
Margeaux Farrar, a spokeswoman for Operation Rescue, told AP the antiabortion organization knew nothing about the posters and had not printed them.
"Our commitment to the dignity of life stands for the born as well as the unborn," Keith Tucci, executive director of Operation Rescue, said in a news release expressing sorrow over Gunn's death.
The Rev. Joseph Foreman, an Operation Rescue founder, said the shooting could be the tip of the iceberg if the government silences abortion protesters.
"I've been saying for years that if the government insists on suppressing normal and time-honored dissent through injunctions, it turns the field over to the rock-throwers, the bombers and the assassins," AP quoted Foreman as saying
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.
Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??
If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.
Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??
:fp:
The Obama administration is bracing for the possibility of more violent anti-American protests after Friday's weekly prayers, traditionally a time of protest in the Middle East and North Africa, following protests outside of several U.S. embassies and a Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya that left four, including the U.S. ambassador to the country, dead.
If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.
Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??
:fp:
The Obama administration is bracing for the possibility of more violent anti-American protests after Friday's weekly prayers, traditionally a time of protest in the Middle East and North Africa, following protests outside of several U.S. embassies and a Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya that left four, including the U.S. ambassador to the country, dead.
do you have any excuses you can give for this ? or maybe a comparisson that happened here in the states ?
that would make their actions justifide ?
Godfather.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at. The actions of these people is not justifiable, did you not read my posts??
Also, why does it have to have happened in America for it to be comparable, does the rest of the world not count, or do problems only become problems when they begin to effect you.
But seriously though, what are you not getting here - what these people have done is deplorable, unjustifiable. These people are nut jobs. They do not represent Muslims however - and this is what I think your problem is.
These people represent Islam as much as your West Boro Baptist church represent Christianity - ok??, does that clear it up for you?
my whole point is that you keep comparing ..or mentioning other churches while we talk about this issue
and I don't think doing that will give any answers one way or another.
'These people represent Islam as much as your West Boro Baptist church represent Christianity - ok??, does that clear it up for you?'
I don't want to argue with you I just want to say what ever else has happened has no bearing on the conflict in cairo.
my whole point is that you keep comparing ..or mentioning other churches while we talk about this issue
and I don't think doing that will give any answers one way or another.
'These people represent Islam as much as your West Boro Baptist church represent Christianity - ok??, does that clear it up for you?'
I don't want to argue with you I just want to say what ever else has happened has no bearing on the conflict in cairo.
Godfather.
The reason for me making those comparisons Godfather is because of the over generalisations that have been made about the Muslim religion, which are blatently false.
It was your insistance that I was somehow justifying what these people had done that I took exception to.
These people happen to be Muslim, they did not do this because they are Muslim. There are many more factors which no one has mentioned, which drives people to these horrible acts, but hey it seems to be easliy packaged when it's pitched as Islam vs America - sensationalised crap.
my whole point is that you keep comparing ..or mentioning other churches while we talk about this issue
and I don't think doing that will give any answers one way or another.
'These people represent Islam as much as your West Boro Baptist church represent Christianity - ok??, does that clear it up for you?'
I don't want to argue with you I just want to say what ever else has happened has no bearing on the conflict in cairo.
Godfather.
The reason for me making those comparisons Godfather is because of the over generalisations that have been made about the Muslim religion, which are blatently false.
It was your insistance that I was somehow justifying what these people had done that I took exception to.
These people happen to be Muslim, they did not do this because they are Muslim. There are many more factors which no one has mentioned, which drives people to these horrible acts, but hey it seems to be easliy packaged when it's pitched as Islam vs America - sensationalised crap.
But hey man, I'm not here to argue either.
but diden't this all start because of a movie they say was an insult to islam ?
I can't believe anyone would say "they just happen to be muslim". That is ridiculous. Their faith is the entire reason the act occurred. And again, doesn't mean all Muslims are bad, but these religious zealots of the muslim faith are human scum.
If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.
Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??
Most of those shooters aren't shooting because someone offended their religion or their religious leader told them to kill all infidels.
But how about the innocent civilians killed by our government in drone attacks? Do their lives matter less? Where is the outrage over their deaths?
Right here... you are not alone.
I'm speaking of anything in the media, protests by the "anti-war" movement, code pink, etc. It seems like they are given this administration a free pass on this issue.
I can't believe anyone would say "they just happen to be muslim". That is ridiculous. Their faith is the entire reason the act occurred. And again, doesn't mean all Muslims are bad, but these religious zealots of the muslim faith are human scum.
Thank you; that's a huge point and isn't applicable to Muslims only.
How many times does that bolded part keep getting missed?
(I'm also trying to comprehend the earlier comment in this thread that Orthodox Jews are extremists. I hope I misunderstood, misread. I sure hope I don't have to inform some of my family that they're considered nutjobs)
CNN) -- The United States has been clear about how it thinks leaders should react to the anti-American violence in Libya, Yemen and Egypt this week. The chaos has been spurred on in part by a movie posted on YouTube that unflatteringly portrays Islam's Prophet Mohammed.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday there should be no debate that bloodshed in response to speech is not acceptable.
"Any responsible leader should be standing up now and drawing that line," she said.
If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.
Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??
Sorry, but I disagree... actually... you're wrong. The Muslim extremist issue is not comparable to random crime AT ALL. It's an ORGANIZED MOVEMENT which includes RECRUITMENT and TERRORISM. I can tell you're not Muslim, because no MUSLIM I've ever known (and I know several, and have been very close to a couple) would EVER deny that Muslim extremism is an organized threat in the world. They also wouldn't deny that there is a contingent in North American and Europe that does indeed want to live by Sharia Law and actually do so, and challenge local law when they are confronted (luckily they fail in these efforts) - this is a fact, not an opinion. No one in this whole thread has said that this is widespread. Just that it is something that goes on among a minority, and that the actions of that minority are a problem, as Muslims and non-Muslims alike who aren't stricken by a bad case of the PCs will tell you.
I really don't understand what it is you're trying to defend here.
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
CNN) -- The United States has been clear about how it thinks leaders should react to the anti-American violence in Libya, Yemen and Egypt this week. The chaos has been spurred on in part by a movie posted on YouTube that unflatteringly portrays Islam's Prophet Mohammed.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday there should be no debate that bloodshed in response to speech is not acceptable.
"Any responsible leader should be standing up now and drawing that line," she said.
But is it really that simple?
Godfather.
Simple? Not with these brainwashed, fanatical zealots who riot with murderous rage when their invisible man in the sky is "insulted" in a made for Youtube "film."
If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.
Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??
Sorry, but I disagree... actually... you're wrong. The Muslim extremist issue is not comparable to random crime AT ALL. It's an ORGANIZED MOVEMENT which includes RECRUITMENT and TERRORISM. I can tell you're not Muslim, because no MUSLIM I've ever known (and I know several, and have been very close to a couple) would EVER deny that Muslim extremism is an organized threat in the world. They also wouldn't deny that there is a contingent in North American and Europe that does indeed want to live by Sharia Law and actually do so, and challenge local law when they are confronted (luckily they fail in these efforts) - this is a fact, not an opinion. No one in this whole thread has said that this is widespread. Just that it is something that goes on among a minority, and that the actions of that minority are a problem, as Muslims and non-Muslims alike who aren't stricken by a bad case of the PCs will tell you.
I really don't understand what it is you're trying to defend here.
I'm more in agreement with Moonpig on this. I think these protests have more to do with angry young males, venting mob style. I believe this has little to do with their religion......its an excuse. If you have witnessed a mob in action (i have) you might understand that perfectly sane human beings will lose their fucking minds. Unemployment is high in these countries. They have just went through revolution and are finding their footing, this doesn't happen overnight. If the United States or Canada or anywhere else went through these monumental changes I believe we could very well be doing the same things, we are no different, we are all human....its in our nature. This will flare up and go away. From what I have read, most people participating in these mobs/protests have never seen the trailer/movie. I'm not saying that there are not religious "nutjobs" out there because there are, and no faith is immune. I just think there is something more going on here then them being "crazy" Muslims, something I think as North Americans we are so quick to assume.
If everytime a shooting happened in America, the perpetrator was described on his or her own religious beliefs, it would not be long before others in the world would have the same opinion of North American Christians as some do of Middle Eastern Muslims.
Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things Um Kettle, where's the Pot gone??
Sorry, but I disagree... actually... you're wrong. The Muslim extremist issue is not comparable to random crime AT ALL. It's an ORGANIZED MOVEMENT which includes RECRUITMENT and TERRORISM. I can tell you're not Muslim, because no MUSLIM I've ever known (and I know several, and have been very close to a couple) would EVER deny that Muslim extremism is an organized threat in the world. They also wouldn't deny that there is a contingent in North American and Europe that does indeed want to live by Sharia Law and actually do so, and challenge local law when they are confronted (luckily they fail in these efforts) - this is a fact, not an opinion. No one in this whole thread has said that this is widespread. Just that it is something that goes on among a minority, and that the actions of that minority are a problem, as Muslims and non-Muslims alike who aren't stricken by a bad case of the PCs will tell you.
I really don't understand what it is you're trying to defend here.
I'm more in agreement with Moonpig on this. I think these protests have more to do with angry young males, venting mob style. I believe this has little to do with their religion......its an excuse. If you have witnessed a mob in action (i have) you might understand that perfectly sane human beings will lose there fucking minds. Unemployment is high in these countries. They have just went through revolution and are finding their footing, this doesn't happen overnight. If the United States or Canada or anywhere else went through these monumental changes I believe we could very well be doing the same things, we are no different, we are all human....its in our nature. This will flare up and go away. From what I have read, most people participating in these mobs/protests have never seen the trailer/movie. I'm not saying that there are not religious "nutjobs" out there because there are, and no faith is immune. I just think there is something more going on here then them being "crazy" Muslims, something I think as North Americans we are so quick to assume.
I think that is the line from PCers, and very naive. We're not talking about street gangs here (or perhaps at the outside, fringe white supremacist groups), which is more what you've just described. You really think of the Taliban and the Muslim Brotherhood simply as mostly young angry people using religion as an excuse??? Sorry, that simply is not true (while it is true that the majority of Muslims are moderate and normal, but are not, unfortunately, making a point of affecting change in the world at the moment; their extremist counterparts are). They BELIEVE in Jihad. Their entire beings are consumed by their extreme faith, and God is telling them that what they are doing is right. Yes, some of these people are recruited, and some of those people are young and angry, but don't let that fool you into thinking that are not sincere in their religious fervor once they're in it. Saying that they are mostly disaffected youth who are acting out because they're misguided is very simplistic, and, more than that, a very Western attitude.
As for these more random mob protests... they are men of all ages from many different walks of life (why they aren't women I assume is obvious), and they are pissed off at the west, and the smallest thing will set them off. Some of them are religious extremists, but many many others are making purely political statements. Those aren't the ones who killed the US diplomats the other day I bet.
Post edited by PJ_Soul on
With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
Comments
but still I will have keep my prespective opinion, thanks for the schooling tho.
Godfather.
Condesend and deflect, without addressing any of the points raised, why am I not suprised.
Tell you what, if you do ever want to have a real discussion around these type of issues let me know. Until that point though, I don't see why you would want to throw out such opinions without any substance what so ever. It comes across as very close minded and ignorant.
However the bolded statement above is another story. Not sure what you are trying to say there, if you want though please feel free to try again.
What I think, and I've discussed this with Muslims that I know, is that the moderate Muslim majority needs to become MUCH more involved in condemning extremists. As it stands now, even moderates feel obligated to first give their allegiance to their faith, and that leads to a sever hesitation to speak against extremists who act in the name of Islam. The Muslim community needs to stand up and act, and so far, they haven't in any significant way that will stem the growth of the extremist minority. I mentioned before, it's estimated that it's now 30% of the Middle Eastern community that could be considered to have extremist views. That is a HUGE number considering that they are the ones who stand up and take action, while the other 70% do very little to nothing to really condemn or stand up against this movement, partly because of fear, since these people will kill other Muslims who aren't on board, and partly because of an ingrained sense that they need to side with those of their own faith and with the ideas of Imams, many of whom are extremist themselves. And that isn't aided by the fact that even moderates still feel pretty pissed off at the West and the US in particular. It is a scary trend, and it has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that they are Muslim, because that's what's driving them, it's through their faith that they spread the word, it's because of their faith that others don't fight it, and it's the skewed ideas of their faith that are fueling emotions. They don't just "happen to be" Muslim. It is the number one defining factor of their actions.
And a final note: this is the topic at hand here. I don't get why bringing up atrocities committed in the name of Christianity or any other religion comes into play. Talking about this doesn't downplay the actions of these folks, and it doesn't suggest that Christians have been any better in the past (but let's face it - at this time in the history, the religious group that is at the forefront of scary-ass extremism is that of Islam, and the movement is growing, not shrinking). It's just not what we're talking about here. This is not a thread against every Muslim person. It's a thread about a serious and growing problem of Islamic extremism that is not being dealt with by the moderates of that faith, which is why it continues to grow. I think that some of the actions by the US and others are stoking the flames is an absolute given... but some stupid YouTube video made by a freak is not one of those actions.
Yeah I agree. I already said as much. But no answer, just keeps touting this really weird coincidence that they just happen to be muslim. Now way I buying it. Perhaps they just happen to be wearing jeans that day, but being muslim is a way bigger part then "just happen".
dang ! awesome post.
Godfather.
"I don't think that we would consider them [Egypt] an ally, but we don't consider them an enemy," Obama said.
Obama characterized the relationship with Egypt as a "work in progress," expressing hope that the fledgling Egyptian government would be "responsive" to U.S. security concerns.
.....
So ... if they are not an ally ... why are we giving them billions of dollars?
:fp:
Thank you Moonpig for injecting some knowledge on this thread. There are 1.5 billion Muslims worldwide. The largest Muslim country in the world is Indonesia. The “extremists” who are kindly called “orthodox” in Judaism and other faiths, make up a very tiny minority. (I could easily point out sexist, murderous cases, just reported recently by members of Orthodox Judaism and Christanity, but the point of many of these posts is not sexism or murder) If the criminals who killed the ambassador had “EVERTYHING” to do with them being Muslim, then exactly how are the other 99 percent of Muslim practicing their faith, are you saying that have it wrong? So why the urgent need for the moderates to speak up, if you have already tried and judged their faith?
Also the thinly veiled Islamophobic posts on this thread are concentrated on the Arab Muslims, because the litmus test is regarding Israel. The two Muslim countries closest to Israel are Egypt and Jordan, Egypt is adhering to the peace it made with Israel forty years ago and Jordan could not care less either about Israel or the Palestinians. There is more dissent and criticism on the actions of Israel within Israel than in the US.
The US only acts in interest of the US, Saudi Arabia and the US have very close relations. The US funded the Taliban in Afghanistan when it interested them, and let them go when it interested in them. They don’t care about “extremists” , dictators, orthodox, etc. If it is in the interest of the US, then they will support them.
I'm not sure why the is hard to understand and why people feel they need t defend Muslims.
The facts, they did this because of their faith. The ae Muslim. It was the reason.
Now that does not mean all Muslims ae bad or are religious nutjobs any more than the stupidity of a certain stupid church here in the US means all Christians are bad or religious nutjobs. Clear?
No need to defend Muslims as a whole, no one is attacking them.
I'm simply anti-religion, a proud agnostic; but, how many Christians stormed the streets with murderous rage after Dogma came out.
In my opinion, these animals are mentally challenged and a product of brainwashing and imprisonment in a backwards culture.
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-wo ... 1huqg.html
Police say the Norwegian suspect in the two attacks that left at least 92 dead described himself as a fundamentalist Christian, as evidence emerged that he had flirted with the political far-right.
The 32-year-old, previously unknown to police, was arrested on Friday after a bomb blast in central Oslo killed seven people and a shooting rampage at a youth camp near the capital left at least 85 dead and scores wounded.
Local media have identified him as Anders Behring Breivik, whose picture on his Facebook page shows a man with longish blonde hair and piercing eyes.
The posting lists his religion as "fundamentalist Christian" and his political opinions lean "to the right", police said.
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"He has certain political traits that lean to the right and are anti-Muslim but it is too early to say if that was the motive for his actions," police commissioner Sevinung Sponheim told public television NRK on Saturday.
In less than two hours on Friday the suspect allegedly carried out two attacks that appeared to target the ruling Labour Party.
The first strike was a bomb attack near the offices of Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg and those of other ministers in the heart of Oslo's government quarter.
In the second attack, about 40km from the capital, the suspect allegedly masqueraded as a police officer before opening fire on young people attending an island camp run for Labour's youth wing.
The head of the populist right-wing Progress Party (FrP), Siv Jensen, said on Saturday she was sorry to learn that the suspect had been a party member between 1999 and 2006 and for several years a leader in its youth movement.
"Those who knew the suspect when he was a member of the party say that he seemed like a modest person that seldom engaged himself in the political discussions," she said in a statement on the party's website.
He was also a member of a Swedish neo-Nazi Internet forum named Nordisk.
Nordisk hosts discussions rangingfrom white power music to political strategies to crush democracy, according to the Stockholm-based Expo foundation that monitors far-right activity.
Behring Breivik's Facebook profile says he is "conservative", "Christian", and "single", interested in hunting and video games such as World of Warcraft and Modern Warfare 2.
On an Internet debate site http://www.document.no in 2009, he expressed his frustrations with the Progress Party. In their desperate attempt to satisfy multicultural expectations and "the suicidal ideals of humanism, they have thrown the baby out with the bath water", he wrote.
He also said he was the manager of an organic farm, Breivik Geofarm, which would have given him access to raw materials that could be used to make explosives.
He reportedly bought six tonnes of fertiliser in May, an agriculture cooperative said.
Tax records, which are open to the public in Norway, show that the suspect listed no income for 2009 and modest sums in the previous years.
On his Twitter account, Behring Breivik posted only one message, dated July 17, in English adapted from a quote by British philosopher John Stuart Mill.
"One person with a belief is equal to a force of 100,000 who have only interests," he wrote
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/na ... s/gunn.htm
Doctor Killed During Abortion Protest
By William Booth
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, March 11, 1993; Page A01
PENSACOLA, FLA., MARCH 10 -- A doctor was shot to death outside his abortion clinic here today when a man who prayed for the physician's soul stepped forward from a group of antiabortion protesters and opened fire, according to police and witnesses.
David Gunn, 47, was shot three times in the back after he got out of his car at the Pensacola Women's Medical Services clinic, according to Pensacola police. He died during surgery at a local hospital.
While abortion providers routinely are threatened with death, and their clinics have been bombed and vandalized, the killing here is believed to be the first in the nation's ongoing struggle over abortion.
This morning, police initially were called to simply squelch an antiabortion protest at the clinic. When they arrived, police said, Michael Frederick Griffin, 31, of Pensacola told them he had just shot Gunn.
Griffin, dressed in a gray suit, quietly surrendered to police, who said they took his .38-caliber snub-nosed revolver. Griffin was arrested and charged with murder and is being held in Escambia County jail.
Don Treshman, head of the antiabortion group Rescue America in Houston, told the Associated Press that Griffin yelled "Don't kill any more babies," just before the shooting this morning.
Treshman said several members of his group attended the protest and called him afterward to relate details of the incident.
Steve Powell, an employee at an office park where the clinic is located, told reporters that Griffin singled out the physician as his target, chased him and shot him at point-blank range.
Powell said the protesters acted strangely after the shooting. "It looked like they were just happy," he said.
On Sunday, at a service attended by protest organizers and participants, Griffin reportedly asked the congregation to pray for Gunn's soul.
"He asked that the congregation pray, and asked that we would agree with him that Dr. Gunn would give his life to Jesus Christ," said John Burt, an organizer of today's protest and a lay preacher at Whitfield Assembly of God Church.
"He wanted him to stop doing things the Bible says is wrong and start doing what the Bible says was right," Burt told reporters.
"There's talk of making protesting abortion clinics a felony. If you start talking about that, people are just going to find other ways of dealing with it," Burt said.
On Christmas Day 1984, two doctors' offices and a clinic in Pensacola were bombed by abortion foes who were convicted and imprisoned.
Burt emphasized that the protesters today had no intention of harming the doctor.
Gunn opened his clinic here about a month ago. He apparently commuted here from Eufaula, Ala., which is several hundred miles away. His new clinic, nestled among offices for lawyers, doctors and accountants, bore no signs and simply advised patients at Suite 46 to come upstairs and sign in.
Before Gunn arrived, there was only one clinic performing abortions in Pensacola, although there are at least three facilities that offer "abortion counseling" to women, in which antiabortion advocates try to persuade them to seek alternatives to terminating their pregnancies.
It is common for antiabortion activists to pray, chant, whistle and scream at abortion providers and women as they enter abortion clinics. The protesters may ask the women to consider alternatives to abortion, such as adoption, and often accompany their appeals with photos of aborted fetuses. At the Pensacola clinic today, protesters held up signs that said, "David Gunn Kills Babies."
The Supreme Court ruled in January that federal judges cannot stop protesters from trying to block access to clinics, although antiabortion protesters routinely are arrested for trespassing on private property. Congress is considering legislation that would outlaw the protests.
"We call on Congress to immediately enact the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances bill to combat antichoice terrorism and enact the Freedom of Choice Act to guarantee American women their legal right to choose," National Abortion Rights Action League President Kate Michelman said in a statement after the shooting.
Gunn had been receiving death threats for several years but they had recently become more blatant and vicious, Susan Hill, who employed the doctor at some of the National Women's Health Organization clinics she runs in the Southeast, told AP. The Pensacola facility was not one of hers.
Last summer in Montgomery, Ala., an old-fashioned "wanted" poster of Gunn was distributed at a rally for Operation Rescue leader Randall Terry, AP said. The poster included a picture of Gunn, his home phone number and other identifying information. The posters were designed to encourage abortion opponents to harass doctors working at clinics operated by Gunn in Alabama.
Margeaux Farrar, a spokeswoman for Operation Rescue, told AP the antiabortion organization knew nothing about the posters and had not printed them.
"Our commitment to the dignity of life stands for the born as well as the unborn," Keith Tucci, executive director of Operation Rescue, said in a news release expressing sorrow over Gunn's death.
The Rev. Joseph Foreman, an Operation Rescue founder, said the shooting could be the tip of the iceberg if the government silences abortion protesters.
"I've been saying for years that if the government insists on suppressing normal and time-honored dissent through injunctions, it turns the field over to the rock-throwers, the bombers and the assassins," AP quoted Foreman as saying
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Oh and this whole coming over here and trying to change our laws to suit themselves argument that some of you have trotted out - surely the irony is not lost. Imagine an American giving out about people coming into their country and trying to change things
:fp:
The Obama administration is bracing for the possibility of more violent anti-American protests after Friday's weekly prayers, traditionally a time of protest in the Middle East and North Africa, following protests outside of several U.S. embassies and a Sept. 11 attack on the U.S. Consulate in Libya that left four, including the U.S. ambassador to the country, dead.
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/09/14 ... z26RUTHgjg
do you have any excuses you can give for this ? or maybe a comparisson that happened here in the states ?
that would make their actions justifide ?
Godfather.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at. The actions of these people is not justifiable, did you not read my posts??
Also, why does it have to have happened in America for it to be comparable, does the rest of the world not count, or do problems only become problems when they begin to effect you.
But seriously though, what are you not getting here - what these people have done is deplorable, unjustifiable. These people are nut jobs. They do not represent Muslims however - and this is what I think your problem is.
These people represent Islam as much as your West Boro Baptist church represent Christianity - ok??, does that clear it up for you?
and I don't think doing that will give any answers one way or another.
'These people represent Islam as much as your West Boro Baptist church represent Christianity - ok??, does that clear it up for you?'
I don't want to argue with you I just want to say what ever else has happened has no bearing on the conflict in cairo.
Godfather.
The reason for me making those comparisons Godfather is because of the over generalisations that have been made about the Muslim religion, which are blatently false.
It was your insistance that I was somehow justifying what these people had done that I took exception to.
These people happen to be Muslim, they did not do this because they are Muslim. There are many more factors which no one has mentioned, which drives people to these horrible acts, but hey it seems to be easliy packaged when it's pitched as Islam vs America - sensationalised crap.
But hey man, I'm not here to argue either.
but diden't this all start because of a movie they say was an insult to islam ?
Godfather.
Exactly. Love the onion.
I can't believe anyone would say "they just happen to be muslim". That is ridiculous. Their faith is the entire reason the act occurred. And again, doesn't mean all Muslims are bad, but these religious zealots of the muslim faith are human scum.
Most of those shooters aren't shooting because someone offended their religion or their religious leader told them to kill all infidels.
I don't believe your argument holds any weight.
Here's the "no shit" article of the day.
I'm speaking of anything in the media, protests by the "anti-war" movement, code pink, etc. It seems like they are given this administration a free pass on this issue.
How many times does that bolded part keep getting missed?
(I'm also trying to comprehend the earlier comment in this thread that Orthodox Jews are extremists. I hope I misunderstood, misread. I sure hope I don't have to inform some of my family that they're considered nutjobs)
CNN) -- The United States has been clear about how it thinks leaders should react to the anti-American violence in Libya, Yemen and Egypt this week. The chaos has been spurred on in part by a movie posted on YouTube that unflatteringly portrays Islam's Prophet Mohammed.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said Thursday there should be no debate that bloodshed in response to speech is not acceptable.
"Any responsible leader should be standing up now and drawing that line," she said.
But is it really that simple?
Godfather.
I really don't understand what it is you're trying to defend here.
Simple? Not with these brainwashed, fanatical zealots who riot with murderous rage when their invisible man in the sky is "insulted" in a made for Youtube "film."
I'm more in agreement with Moonpig on this. I think these protests have more to do with angry young males, venting mob style. I believe this has little to do with their religion......its an excuse. If you have witnessed a mob in action (i have) you might understand that perfectly sane human beings will lose their fucking minds. Unemployment is high in these countries. They have just went through revolution and are finding their footing, this doesn't happen overnight. If the United States or Canada or anywhere else went through these monumental changes I believe we could very well be doing the same things, we are no different, we are all human....its in our nature. This will flare up and go away. From what I have read, most people participating in these mobs/protests have never seen the trailer/movie. I'm not saying that there are not religious "nutjobs" out there because there are, and no faith is immune. I just think there is something more going on here then them being "crazy" Muslims, something I think as North Americans we are so quick to assume.
As for these more random mob protests... they are men of all ages from many different walks of life (why they aren't women I assume is obvious), and they are pissed off at the west, and the smallest thing will set them off. Some of them are religious extremists, but many many others are making purely political statements. Those aren't the ones who killed the US diplomats the other day I bet.