I just can't understand in an economy that is struggling at best, a state near bankruptcy (Illinois), and a school system near bankruptcy (Chicago Public Schools) that these teachers feel like they should have leverage to turn down 16% pay increases. They should be happy they have jobs. Sorry, right now the leverage is with the employers in fields where the workforce is larger than the jobs available.
If I were a Chicago parent who was working two jobs for half the pay of the teachers, or didn't have a job at all, I would be livid at these teachers. I just can never understand how these union employees can't figure out they are pushing themselves out of jobs by forcing these high salaries and pensions. The auto industry was going bankrupt because the union employees were getting paid way too much.
There seems to be some disinformation about. From what I read, the teacher's union turned down 2%. An independent arbitrator suggested 15-20%.
I suggested that if people are so strongly opposed to teachers making a good living... then maybe we should adopt a 2 year diploma program at community colleges for people to receive their accreditation instead of 5-6 years at a university. Then we could pay them an 'okay' wage without the pension and other benefits that so many people seem to be opposed to as well!
This way, to become a teacher... you wouldn't have to: forgo 5-6 years of working and earning a wage; spend obscene amounts of cash at a university to receive your accreditation; and enter a job that typically pays $40-45,000 in its first year. It's tough to be down approximately $300,000 out of the gates (years sacrificed at school not being able to work combined with debts accumulated at university) and earn $40,000 for your efforts. The wage of $70,000 has been tossed around- without having looked at the CPS pay grid... I can confidently tell you that is the wage a teacher makes after (typically) 7-8 years of service.
I'm not sure you would be motivating good people to seek careers in teaching, but your 'economic' problem is solved right? It seems as if people on this forum might prefer such a model. Am I correct?
Nobody gets into teaching to become rich. Most get into teaching for the right reasons.
Don't get me wrong- there are plenty of problems within the education system. Accountability being a major one, but let's get real... there are plenty of excellent teachers who more than deserve their wages and benefits. People should not forget about them by ruthlessly slamming the teaching profession and calling them nothing more than greedy.
Im not slamming the teaching profession at all. If this was the local plumbers union wanting these demands would we be talking?, probably not. However, its not the toilet thats broken right now..... its my kids education, my daughters future were playing with here. Its time to get the fuck back in the classroom. NOW!
I just can't understand in an economy that is struggling at best, a state near bankruptcy (Illinois), and a school system near bankruptcy (Chicago Public Schools) that these teachers feel like they should have leverage to turn down 16% pay increases. They should be happy they have jobs. Sorry, right now the leverage is with the employers in fields where the workforce is larger than the jobs available.
If I were a Chicago parent who was working two jobs for half the pay of the teachers, or didn't have a job at all, I would be livid at these teachers. I just can never understand how these union employees can't figure out they are pushing themselves out of jobs by forcing these high salaries and pensions. The auto industry was going bankrupt because the union employees were getting paid way too much.
There seems to be some disinformation about. From what I read, the teacher's union turned down 2%. An independent arbitrator suggested 15-20%.
I suggested that if people are so strongly opposed to teachers making a good living... then maybe we should adopt a 2 year diploma program at community colleges for people to receive their accreditation instead of 5-6 years at a university. Then we could pay them an 'okay' wage without the pension and other benefits that so many people seem to be opposed to as well!
This way, to become a teacher... you wouldn't have to: forgo 5-6 years of working and earning a wage; spend obscene amounts of cash at a university to receive your accreditation; and enter a job that typically pays $40-45,000 in its first year. It's tough to be down approximately $300,000 out of the gates (years sacrificed at school not being able to work combined with debts accumulated at university) and earn $40,000 for your efforts. The wage of $70,000 has been tossed around- without having looked at the CPS pay grid... I can confidently tell you that is the wage a teacher makes after (typically) 7-8 years of service.
I'm not sure you would be motivating good people to seek careers in teaching, but your 'economic' problem is solved right? It seems as if people on this forum might prefer such a model. Am I correct?
Nobody gets into teaching to become rich. Most get into teaching for the right reasons.
Don't get me wrong- there are plenty of problems within the education system. Accountability being a major one, but let's get real... there are plenty of excellent teachers who more than deserve their wages and benefits. People should not forget about them by ruthlessly slamming the teaching profession and calling them nothing more than greedy.
And if you look at the CPS pay scale, which is public knowledge, then you would see that a teacher, with a master's degree, having taught 11 years would be making less that $70,000 which includes pension contributions. I'm not familiar with the cost of living in Chicago but that seems like it would be difficult to live on compared to the state I live in - which is a high poverty state. Check your own school district, in my state it is public knowledge what I make. Meaning our local paper has my name listed and my salary not just a generic pay scale.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Let me go on record as saying I don't know enough of the CPS situation to accurately weigh in on the situation. But I think people need to be careful when casting broad-based, hurtful comments about individual teachers when perhaps they are more disappointed with the movement the union has placed teachers in.
I have been on strike twice as a teacher. Sucked. Hated it. The first time, I felt it was right and did my duty on a picket line. The second time I just sat at home looking for an exit strategy from the profession I am very fond of. I can tell you that there are several teachers who are powerless in this struggle and are affected greatly by it. The venomous comments are hardly helpful.
The following article is an interesting piece on the economics of teacher turnover rates:
It suggests some startling numbers that one might not have considered without probing attrition rates of teachers in any detail.
Of particular note, the statistics reveal 46% of new teachers leave the profession within their first five years. It's not a cakewalk as some have suggested.
Bottom line:
If we value a strong education system... then we need to support it- not just with pats on the back and Starbucks coffee (don't get me wrong... these are nice!). Teachers need to feel respected and valued or they may quit or lose enthusiasm for the task. This would be no different in any other occupation. With this said, as I have said before, I support the implementation of a teacher accountability model. The public should get what they pay for!
If we don't value a strong education system... then dial it back. Less time for accreditation. Less wages. Fewer benefits.
This way, to become a teacher... you wouldn't have to: forgo 5-6 years of working and earning a wage; spend obscene amounts of cash at a university to receive your accreditation; and enter a job that typically pays $40-45,000 in its first year. It's tough to be down approximately $300,000 out of the gates (years sacrificed at school not being able to work combined with debts accumulated at university) and earn $40,000 for your efforts. The wage of $70,000 has been tossed around- without having looked at the CPS pay grid... I can confidently tell you that is the wage a teacher makes after (typically) 7-8 years of service.
I'm confused. When did it take 5-6 years to get a teaching license to teach high school math or elementary school? Also, $300,000 in school debt? That is $75,000 for four years, or $50,000 for 6 years. I went to a nice private university and paid $25,000 a year for a business degree. A public university would cost considerably less. I had several friends go into teaching and immediate family members too, and none went to school for more than 4 years. I can understand taking grad classes for college level teaching. It is ridiculous to think you need to pay $300,000 to be qualified to teach high school algebra.
I don't know the current requirements, but pharmacists have 6 year degrees. I don't think getting a teaching degree should take as many classes as a pharmacy degree.
According to CNN Money the average starting salary for 2011 was $41,701. So a starting teacher salary of $40,000 isn't any different than the average college graduate.
My biggest problem with some of the unions is for example: a lot of school districts base layoffs on seniority. Therefore as long as you've been there for a long time you stay. Doesn't matter if you're doing a great or terrible job. You get to stay simply because you've been there a long time.
Doesn't really address the question...it seems to me more and more people have this attitude "if I don't have those perks, then they shouldn't". Why do so many people care about the perks of others? Where not talking about wealthy people, mostly middle class.
As for layoffs based on seniority...I much prefer that system as to "he/she is a better ass kisser" so he/she doesn't get laid off.
These perks are bankrupting the school systems and auto industries. That is why some people are commenting. Teachers with these perks that many Americans do not have are on strike because they want more. The taxpayers have to pay for all of these perks. You may have noticed that the US and most municipalities are cruising to bankruptcy.
So the high paid salaries, bonus's and perks that the executives at the Detroit 3 didn't contributing to their demise, the high paid engineers who suppose to design cars people want to buy, marketing department...etc.
As for the school board check the salary and perks of the politicians and administrators..
It's really not fair to always blame the worker for the problems.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
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81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
Why do i care about these perks? Really? You asked that?
Who do you think pays for the perks? Let me give you a hint. Joe Taxpayer
And I pay a ton of taxes for our medical system. None in my family are sick. We don't smoke. We maintain as healthy a lifestyle as possible. Yet... I pay for the people that cannot stay away from the trough at the Golden Corral and for the people that smoke two packs a day.
I pay a ton of taxes for publically funded defence lawyer teams going through multiple appeals for the pedophile rapist.
I can give you a dozen more examples of taxpayers' wasted money. You think that the teachers and the schools are the leeches? Know your enemy.
You don't support a strong education system? Don't you think it might be our best bet at proactively curbing many of the problems we face today?
Yes it is full of wasted $'s starting with the $32M in union dues
Yes there are lots of other tax wasting programs out there. However the topic at hand is chicago public schools.
This way, to become a teacher... you wouldn't have to: forgo 5-6 years of working and earning a wage; spend obscene amounts of cash at a university to receive your accreditation; and enter a job that typically pays $40-45,000 in its first year. It's tough to be down approximately $300,000 out of the gates (years sacrificed at school not being able to work combined with debts accumulated at university) and earn $40,000 for your efforts. The wage of $70,000 has been tossed around- without having looked at the CPS pay grid... I can confidently tell you that is the wage a teacher makes after (typically) 7-8 years of service.
I'm confused. When did it take 5-6 years to get a teaching license to teach high school math or elementary school? Also, $300,000 in school debt? That is $75,000 for four years, or $50,000 for 6 years. I went to a nice private university and paid $25,000 a year for a business degree. A public university would cost considerably less. I had several friends go into teaching and immediate family members too, and none went to school for more than 4 years. I can understand taking grad classes for college level teaching. It is ridiculous to think you need to pay $300,000 to be qualified to teach high school algebra.
I don't know the current requirements, but pharmacists have 6 year degrees. I don't think getting a teaching degree should take as many classes as a pharmacy degree.
According to CNN Money the average starting salary for 2011 was $41,701. So a starting teacher salary of $40,000 isn't any different than the average college graduate.
Stick with me here:
Going to school is time spent when you could have been earning a wage. Going to school, for most, means debt. Combine the sacrificed opportunity at earning wages while going to school with the debt the schooling usually generates and I came up with a 'conservative' number of $300,000 spent before earning a dollar as a teacher.
The minimum requirements for becoming a teacher in British Columbia are 5 years: a Bachelor Degree of four years and either a 1 or 2 year certificate (2 years for elementary and 1 year for secondary). If they aren't the same elsewhere... I wouldn't know.
The starting salaries for college graduates you posted would appear to be accurate. I'd be curious what the ceilings look like for various professions included in such data.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
Y ou can work and go to school at the same time. Just sayin
Why do i care about these perks? Really? You asked that?
Who do you think pays for the perks? Let me give you a hint. Joe Taxpayer
And I pay a ton of taxes for our medical system. None in my family are sick. We don't smoke. We maintain as healthy a lifestyle as possible. Yet... I pay for the people that cannot stay away from the trough at the Golden Corral and for the people that smoke two packs a day.
I pay a ton of taxes for publically funded defence lawyer teams going through multiple appeals for the pedophile rapist.
I can give you a dozen more examples of taxpayers' wasted money. You think that the teachers and the schools are the leeches? Know your enemy.
You don't support a strong education system? Don't you think it might be our best bet at proactively curbing many of the problems we face today?
Yes it is full of wasted $'s starting with the $32M in union dues
Yes there are lots of other tax wasting programs out there. However the topic at hand is chicago public schools.
The $32M in union dues is what they choose to do with their negotiated salary. They might be paying too much, but that is their business. If they weren't paying it... it wouldn't be going to textbooks... it would be going in their pockets and rightfully so.
We can't discuss this issue in a slightly bigger context? You could look at a lot of things under a microscope and notice the imperfections.
You keep going on about the $32 million and other items... how about you answer a few of the questions that have been asked of you: Do you support a 'watered-down' education system that demands much less in terms of accreditation for teachers and, as such, delivers much less in terms of money and benefits in return?
Y ou can work and go to school at the same time. Just sayin
I bartended and went to school. I'm aware of this possibility. I was still in debt when I left school without anything to show for the time I spent there.
That's actually kind of funny. I honestly laughed out loud.
I feel for you- I truly do.
Regardless of whether this union is right or wrong in this particular situation... can you make a suggestion as to how teachers might fight for improvements without disrupting the daily school lives of the kids they teach?
Stick with me here:
Going to school is time spent when you could have been earning a wage. Going to school, for most, means debt. Combine the sacrificed opportunity at earning wages while going to school with the debt the schooling usually generates and I came up with a 'conservative' number of $300,000 spent before earning a dollar as a teacher.
The minimum requirements for becoming a teacher in British Columbia are 5 years: a Bachelor Degree of four years and either a 1 or 2 year certificate (2 years for elementary and 1 year for secondary). If they aren't the same elsewhere... I wouldn't know.
The starting salaries for college graduates you posted would appear to be accurate. I'd be curious what the ceilings look like for various professions included in such data.
I'm familiar with opportunity costs. Since all college graduates have to deal with the opportunity cost of not working full-time I wouldn't factor in the lost salaries as a debt out of college when comparing teaching to any other profession.
Do you think you need 5 years or 6 years to be a teacher? I'm just curious what you think. I personally didn't think I needed to go to school for four years to be an accountant. I think 2-3 years max was all I would have needed. I am not a fan of the current college system that costs way too much for the value in return.
Stick with me here:
Going to school is time spent when you could have been earning a wage. Going to school, for most, means debt. Combine the sacrificed opportunity at earning wages while going to school with the debt the schooling usually generates and I came up with a 'conservative' number of $300,000 spent before earning a dollar as a teacher.
The minimum requirements for becoming a teacher in British Columbia are 5 years: a Bachelor Degree of four years and either a 1 or 2 year certificate (2 years for elementary and 1 year for secondary). If they aren't the same elsewhere... I wouldn't know.
The starting salaries for college graduates you posted would appear to be accurate. I'd be curious what the ceilings look like for various professions included in such data.
I'm familiar with opportunity costs. Since all college graduates have to deal with the opportunity cost of not working full-time I wouldn't factor in the lost salaries as a debt out of college when comparing teaching to any other profession.
Do you think you need 5 years or 6 years to be a teacher? I'm just curious what you think. I personally didn't think I needed to go to school for four years to be an accountant. I think 2-3 years max was all I would have needed. I am not a fan of the current college system that costs way too much for the value in return.
I had friends step into abundant jobs at the local mills and mines working for $50,000 per year plus overtime opportunities. I decided to pursue post secondary education. By the time I was done college, they had already purchased houses and had nice vehicles while I had my UBC sweatshirt and a student loan. Don't get me wrong, I am okay with my choice and have no regrets; however, I think it is fair to factor in 'opportunity costs' when determining the level of sacrifice demanded by society for certifying teachers.
I cannot confidently answer your last question. I can say this though: teachers need a base of knowledge to draw from. A bachelor degree might be enough with some sort of practicum built into it- I didn't need most of my third and fourth year electives. They could have been replaced with a meaningful job shadowing/practical experience.
I will agree with you that universities are exceptional businesses as the 'gateways' to careers that cannot be accessed in any way outside of their realm. I am plugging away RESPs for my kids, but I question the value of doing so given the state of things and the direction the earth is moving. Trades look pretty damn appealing.
Y ou can work and go to school at the same time. Just sayin
I bartended and went to school. I'm aware of this possibility. I was still in debt when I left school without anything to show for the time I spent there.
And I worked when I was in college and left in debt as well without anything to show for the time I spent there. Now I manage a car dealership. My job is on the line month to month. I'm accountable every single month for my productivity. I get judged every month by how many units get sold. When the day comes I get fired...and it always comes...I can't look my boss in the face and say you can't judge me becasue "the quality of customer coming in the door wasn't prepared to buy" or you can't judge me beacuse "the customers didn't have the money to buy" or "I did everything I could possibly do, you can't judge me on results but judge my efforts". There needs to be accountablity here as well as in any other industry. In the case of the CHicago teachers they are simply failing. Why get a raise? :? Make your success rates go up and then ask for a raise.
Y ou can work and go to school at the same time. Just sayin
I bartended and went to school. I'm aware of this possibility. I was still in debt when I left school without anything to show for the time I spent there.
And I worked when I was in college and left in debt as well without anything to show for the time I spent there. Now I manage a car dealership. My job is on the line month to month. I'm accountable every single month for my productivity. I get judged every month by how many units get sold. When the day comes I get fired...and it always comes...I can't look my boss in the face and say you can't judge me becasue "the quality of customer coming in the door wasn't prepared to buy" or you can't judge me beacuse "the customers didn't have the money to buy" or "I did everything I could possibly do, you can't judge me on results but judge my efforts". There needs to be accountablity here as well as in any other industry. In the case of the CHicago teachers they are simply failing. Why get a raise? :? Make your success rates go up and then ask for a raise.
So... we're on the same page? If you have read any of my posts... I have advocated for a model of accountability!
Now... to some of your other stuff. Come on now. You think all Chicago teachers are failing? And, if we are going to hold teachers to a baseline standard... then it goes without saying that there will be incentives for doing well, correct? I mean... you can't have it all one way now, right?
Just as you have your good months 'pushing metal' (as my lifelong friend who is a car dealership manager has put it) and get rewarded for it... the model of accountability that you and others have suggested for teachers must reward strong performances too, right?
I'm willing to have someone find an alternative career if teaching is not for them. Are you willing to 'buck up' when a talented teacher performs admirably?
So... we're on the same page? If you have read any of my posts... I have advocated for a model of accountability!
Now... to some of your other stuff. Come on now. You think all Chicago teachers are failing? And, if we are going to hold teachers to a baseline standard... then it goes without saying that there will be incentives for doing well, correct? I mean... you can't have it all one way now, right?
Just as you have your good months 'pushing metal' (as my lifelong friend who is a car dealership manager has put it) and get rewarded for it... the model of accountability that you and others have suggested for teachers must reward strong performances too, right?
I'm willing to have someone find an alternative career if teaching is not for them. Are you willing to 'buck up' when a talented teacher performs admirably?
Yes. It's called keeping your job. There are plenty of out of work teachers and substitutes nationwide who can move in. Pretty much like any other industry. You do a good job...you keep your job. You do a poor job...you lose your job. Fairly good incentive I would say for a teacher to perform admirably.
So... we're on the same page? If you have read any of my posts... I have advocated for a model of accountability!
Now... to some of your other stuff. Come on now. You think all Chicago teachers are failing? And, if we are going to hold teachers to a baseline standard... then it goes without saying that there will be incentives for doing well, correct? I mean... you can't have it all one way now, right?
Just as you have your good months 'pushing metal' (as my lifelong friend who is a car dealership manager has put it) and get rewarded for it... the model of accountability that you and others have suggested for teachers must reward strong performances too, right?
I'm willing to have someone find an alternative career if teaching is not for them. Are you willing to 'buck up' when a talented teacher performs admirably?
Yes. It's called keeping your job. There are plenty of out of work teachers and substitutes nationwide who can move in. Pretty much like any other industry. You do a good job...you keep your job. You do a poor job...you lose your job. Fairly good incentive I would say for a teacher to perform admirably.
So you are on a fixed salary? You do not receive incentives for strong months? Sounds as if you need to negotiate a little better for yourself.
I'm sure your compensation strategy for the teaching profession will make it incredibly attractive for potential educators and not only that- ensure a viable and sound system for decades that you can be so proud of. Allow me to use some of your signature emoticons (I think they are called that?) that you continually use to try and fancy up some of your points.
With over half of the new teachers quitting within 5 years of trying the job in the US... are you sure that this bold, new, 'iron balls' strategy is the best one there is? Half the people who sacrificed to get the job under it's current structure don't even want it once they get it, start working at it, and realize what it's about.
seems this type of converstation are the same all over the world..
asking 30% raise,sure seems crazy..
here in Greece,teachers,lets say with 10 years teaching take,15-17k $ per year,and most of them now begging not get fired cos of the cuts..
same things,work only 8 months,etc..all have the same opinions here
this is one side of the story....
there is another side..
these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...
isnt a easy job as all think,cos work 8 months and have sick days off and weeks at holidays..
can u imagine yourself 2-3 hours with 30 kids,lets say age 6-7 years old??
sorry,but for me,would be so hard to handle this.cant even imagine to teach them anything..
im teaching the new guys in Airforce and even they dont even move during the class,cos of military and how need to react,the even talk in plural,they ask me even permition to take a pencil from another student,
well,isnt easy at all to stand there and deal with so many different personalities and make them learn what you suppose to learn them..
im doing a difficult ,dangerous job,in Airforce,work double hours than teachers does..
but..that doesnt make easier their job.
i work and handle millions of dollars Aircraft,its very responsible work,its so unhealthy..
but teachers dealing with humans and very young,that is so hard even to listen you,imagine how hard is to teach them..
critisism is good,but when comes to teachers we all do it easy..
30% is sound and is crazy to ask imo..and union lost the way created in the first place..
but is very hard work...how hard and difficult is a job,isnt of how many hours or months per year u work..
has to do,how responsible is,what u need to study to do it,and what affect has at the society...
and the last one is very important...
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
This way, to become a teacher... you wouldn't have to: forgo 5-6 years of working and earning a wage; spend obscene amounts of cash at a university to receive your accreditation; and enter a job that typically pays $40-45,000 in its first year. It's tough to be down approximately $300,000 out of the gates (years sacrificed at school not being able to work combined with debts accumulated at university) and earn $40,000 for your efforts. The wage of $70,000 has been tossed around- without having looked at the CPS pay grid... I can confidently tell you that is the wage a teacher makes after (typically) 7-8 years of service.
I'm confused. When did it take 5-6 years to get a teaching license to teach high school math or elementary school? Also, $300,000 in school debt? That is $75,000 for four years, or $50,000 for 6 years. I went to a nice private university and paid $25,000 a year for a business degree. A public university would cost considerably less. I had several friends go into teaching and immediate family members too, and none went to school for more than 4 years. I can understand taking grad classes for college level teaching. It is ridiculous to think you need to pay $300,000 to be qualified to teach high school algebra.
I don't know the current requirements, but pharmacists have 6 year degrees. I don't think getting a teaching degree should take as many classes as a pharmacy degree.
According to CNN Money the average starting salary for 2011 was $41,701. So a starting teacher salary of $40,000 isn't any different than the average college graduate.
I can only speak for my state - KY. But we are required to have a masters degree before we can get our teaching certificate. That is 30 hours beyond a bachelor's which should put me making the equivalent of other professions that have the same amount of education (lawyers and pharmacists for instance). I am also currently working on a second masters degree (typically called a Rank I) which many teachers also choose to get. I have to agree with thirtybillsunpaid that we can decrease the salary for teachers by decreasing the amount of education and responsbility required but we'll end up with babysitters not educators. I am all for accountability and I disagree with my union on a great deal but there has to be some level of compromise on both sides or we're never going to change the system.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
At no point here have I grouped the teachers of this nation, with THE CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS.
This thread was titled THE Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike.
Here is a little background on the Chicago Public School System.
Since this article was posted, I would love to know how much change there has been.
We are talking about a school system where the children consistently rank at the bottom of the barrel, as far as test scores.
We are talking about a system where almost half, if not more, of the 8th graders, DO NOT read at the 8th grade level.
We are talking about a system where the dropout level of students is at almost 50%.
We are talking about a system where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the nation.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Kentucky.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Washington DC.
I was discussing The Chicago Public Teachers, Their Union, and The Chicago Public School Sysem.
So why not keep on topic?
The Chicago Public Teachers Strike.
Post edited by SPEEDY MCCREADY on
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
At no point here have I grouped the teachers of this nation, with THE CHICAO PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS.
This thread was titled THE Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike.
Here is a little background on the Chicago Public School System.
Since this article was posted, I would love to know how much change there has been.
We are talking about a school system where the children consistently rank at the bottom of the barrel, as far as test scores.
We are talking about a system where almost half, if not more, of the 8th graders, DO NOT read at the 8th grade level.
We are talking about a system where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the nation.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Kentucky.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Washington DC.
I was discussing The Chicago Public Teachers, Their Union, and The Chicago Public School Sysem.
So why not keep on topic?
The Chicago Public Teachers Strike.
I've heard, generally, the education is poorer because good teachers leave for higher paying suburban opportunities..
At no point here have I grouped the teachers of this nation, with THE CHICAO PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS.
This thread was titled THE Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike.
Here is a little background on the Chicago Public School System.
Since this article was posted, I would love to know how much change there has been.
We are talking about a school system where the children consistently rank at the bottom of the barrel, as far as test scores.
We are talking about a system where almost half, if not more, of the 8th graders, DO NOT read at the 8th grade level.
We are talking about a system where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the nation.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Kentucky.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Washington DC.
I was discussing The Chicago Public Teachers, Their Union, and The Chicago Public School Sysem.
So why not keep on topic?
The Chicago Public Teachers Strike.
I've heard, generally, the education is poorer because good teachers leave for higher paying suburban opportunities..
So is it safe to say, for those teachers, it is not all about the children.
It is about the money.
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
At no point here have I grouped the teachers of this nation, with THE CHICAO PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS.
This thread was titled THE Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike.
Here is a little background on the Chicago Public School System.
Since this article was posted, I would love to know how much change there has been.
We are talking about a school system where the children consistently rank at the bottom of the barrel, as far as test scores.
We are talking about a system where almost half, if not more, of the 8th graders, DO NOT read at the 8th grade level.
We are talking about a system where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the nation.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Kentucky.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Washington DC.
I was discussing The Chicago Public Teachers, Their Union, and The Chicago Public School Sysem.
So why not keep on topic?
The Chicago Public Teachers Strike.
I've heard, generally, the education is poorer because good teachers leave for higher paying suburban opportunities..
So is it safe to say, for those teachers, it is not all about the children.
It is about the money.
I think for most people it is. You could argue, they are still doing what they love. If you had an opportunity to do what you do, but for higher pay, would you take the lower pay just because? Wouldn't you rather work for an employer that shows more appreciation?
I can only speak for my state - KY. But we are required to have a masters degree before we can get our teaching certificate. That is 30 hours beyond a bachelor's which should put me making the equivalent of other professions that have the same amount of education (lawyers and pharmacists for instance). I am also currently working on a second masters degree (typically called a Rank I) which many teachers also choose to get. I have to agree with thirtybillsunpaid that we can decrease the salary for teachers by decreasing the amount of education and responsbility required but we'll end up with babysitters not educators. I am all for accountability and I disagree with my union on a great deal but there has to be some level of compromise on both sides or we're never going to change the system.
In PA many teachers also have Master's degrees. Yet, many, if not the heavy majority, don't pay for these out of their pocket - the school assists. Did you pay for yours?
The $32M in union dues is what they choose to do with their negotiated salary. They might be paying too much, but that is their business. If they weren't paying it... it wouldn't be going to textbooks... it would be going in their pockets and rightfully so.
We can't discuss this issue in a slightly bigger context? You could look at a lot of things under a microscope and notice the imperfections.
You keep going on about the $32 million and other items... how about you answer a few of the questions that have been asked of you: Do you support a 'watered-down' education system that demands much less in terms of accreditation for teachers and, as such, delivers much less in terms of money and benefits in return?
and you are telling me that $32M isn't considered when the union comes up with salary demands? you know damn well they are planning for their pocket padding
as for watered down education system...i never said that....nor do i want that. i do want admin's cut and unions deleted from chicago schools.
i'm still waiting for someone to tell me what that $32M buys me. obviously, not a t shirt.
these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...
While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.
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these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...
While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.
i don't recall picking up much of my character from teachers...more from friends and family...not to mention, we are sort of born with a predetermined mindset, although it can be influnced some.
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one of the local radio stations had a teacher on this AM. she was saying the picketers were getting a lot of thumb downs from passerby's.
Comments
Im not slamming the teaching profession at all. If this was the local plumbers union wanting these demands would we be talking?, probably not. However, its not the toilet thats broken right now..... its my kids education, my daughters future were playing with here. Its time to get the fuck back in the classroom. NOW!
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And if you look at the CPS pay scale, which is public knowledge, then you would see that a teacher, with a master's degree, having taught 11 years would be making less that $70,000 which includes pension contributions. I'm not familiar with the cost of living in Chicago but that seems like it would be difficult to live on compared to the state I live in - which is a high poverty state. Check your own school district, in my state it is public knowledge what I make. Meaning our local paper has my name listed and my salary not just a generic pay scale.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I have been on strike twice as a teacher. Sucked. Hated it. The first time, I felt it was right and did my duty on a picket line. The second time I just sat at home looking for an exit strategy from the profession I am very fond of. I can tell you that there are several teachers who are powerless in this struggle and are affected greatly by it. The venomous comments are hardly helpful.
The following article is an interesting piece on the economics of teacher turnover rates:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/20 ... c-schools/
It suggests some startling numbers that one might not have considered without probing attrition rates of teachers in any detail.
Of particular note, the statistics reveal 46% of new teachers leave the profession within their first five years. It's not a cakewalk as some have suggested.
Bottom line:
If we value a strong education system... then we need to support it- not just with pats on the back and Starbucks coffee (don't get me wrong... these are nice!). Teachers need to feel respected and valued or they may quit or lose enthusiasm for the task. This would be no different in any other occupation. With this said, as I have said before, I support the implementation of a teacher accountability model. The public should get what they pay for!
If we don't value a strong education system... then dial it back. Less time for accreditation. Less wages. Fewer benefits.
I'm confused. When did it take 5-6 years to get a teaching license to teach high school math or elementary school? Also, $300,000 in school debt? That is $75,000 for four years, or $50,000 for 6 years. I went to a nice private university and paid $25,000 a year for a business degree. A public university would cost considerably less. I had several friends go into teaching and immediate family members too, and none went to school for more than 4 years. I can understand taking grad classes for college level teaching. It is ridiculous to think you need to pay $300,000 to be qualified to teach high school algebra.
I don't know the current requirements, but pharmacists have 6 year degrees. I don't think getting a teaching degree should take as many classes as a pharmacy degree.
According to CNN Money the average starting salary for 2011 was $41,701. So a starting teacher salary of $40,000 isn't any different than the average college graduate.
http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/12/pf/coll ... /index.htm
So the high paid salaries, bonus's and perks that the executives at the Detroit 3 didn't contributing to their demise, the high paid engineers who suppose to design cars people want to buy, marketing department...etc.
As for the school board check the salary and perks of the politicians and administrators..
It's really not fair to always blame the worker for the problems.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Yes there are lots of other tax wasting programs out there. However the topic at hand is chicago public schools.
Stick with me here:
Going to school is time spent when you could have been earning a wage. Going to school, for most, means debt. Combine the sacrificed opportunity at earning wages while going to school with the debt the schooling usually generates and I came up with a 'conservative' number of $300,000 spent before earning a dollar as a teacher.
The minimum requirements for becoming a teacher in British Columbia are 5 years: a Bachelor Degree of four years and either a 1 or 2 year certificate (2 years for elementary and 1 year for secondary). If they aren't the same elsewhere... I wouldn't know.
The starting salaries for college graduates you posted would appear to be accurate. I'd be curious what the ceilings look like for various professions included in such data.
The $32M in union dues is what they choose to do with their negotiated salary. They might be paying too much, but that is their business. If they weren't paying it... it wouldn't be going to textbooks... it would be going in their pockets and rightfully so.
We can't discuss this issue in a slightly bigger context? You could look at a lot of things under a microscope and notice the imperfections.
You keep going on about the $32 million and other items... how about you answer a few of the questions that have been asked of you: Do you support a 'watered-down' education system that demands much less in terms of accreditation for teachers and, as such, delivers much less in terms of money and benefits in return?
I bartended and went to school. I'm aware of this possibility. I was still in debt when I left school without anything to show for the time I spent there.
That's actually kind of funny. I honestly laughed out loud.
I feel for you- I truly do.
Regardless of whether this union is right or wrong in this particular situation... can you make a suggestion as to how teachers might fight for improvements without disrupting the daily school lives of the kids they teach?
I'm familiar with opportunity costs. Since all college graduates have to deal with the opportunity cost of not working full-time I wouldn't factor in the lost salaries as a debt out of college when comparing teaching to any other profession.
Do you think you need 5 years or 6 years to be a teacher? I'm just curious what you think. I personally didn't think I needed to go to school for four years to be an accountant. I think 2-3 years max was all I would have needed. I am not a fan of the current college system that costs way too much for the value in return.
I had friends step into abundant jobs at the local mills and mines working for $50,000 per year plus overtime opportunities. I decided to pursue post secondary education. By the time I was done college, they had already purchased houses and had nice vehicles while I had my UBC sweatshirt and a student loan. Don't get me wrong, I am okay with my choice and have no regrets; however, I think it is fair to factor in 'opportunity costs' when determining the level of sacrifice demanded by society for certifying teachers.
I cannot confidently answer your last question. I can say this though: teachers need a base of knowledge to draw from. A bachelor degree might be enough with some sort of practicum built into it- I didn't need most of my third and fourth year electives. They could have been replaced with a meaningful job shadowing/practical experience.
I will agree with you that universities are exceptional businesses as the 'gateways' to careers that cannot be accessed in any way outside of their realm. I am plugging away RESPs for my kids, but I question the value of doing so given the state of things and the direction the earth is moving. Trades look pretty damn appealing.
And I worked when I was in college and left in debt as well without anything to show for the time I spent there. Now I manage a car dealership. My job is on the line month to month. I'm accountable every single month for my productivity. I get judged every month by how many units get sold. When the day comes I get fired...and it always comes...I can't look my boss in the face and say you can't judge me becasue "the quality of customer coming in the door wasn't prepared to buy" or you can't judge me beacuse "the customers didn't have the money to buy" or "I did everything I could possibly do, you can't judge me on results but judge my efforts". There needs to be accountablity here as well as in any other industry. In the case of the CHicago teachers they are simply failing. Why get a raise? :? Make your success rates go up and then ask for a raise.
So... we're on the same page? If you have read any of my posts... I have advocated for a model of accountability!
Now... to some of your other stuff. Come on now. You think all Chicago teachers are failing? And, if we are going to hold teachers to a baseline standard... then it goes without saying that there will be incentives for doing well, correct? I mean... you can't have it all one way now, right?
Just as you have your good months 'pushing metal' (as my lifelong friend who is a car dealership manager has put it) and get rewarded for it... the model of accountability that you and others have suggested for teachers must reward strong performances too, right?
I'm willing to have someone find an alternative career if teaching is not for them. Are you willing to 'buck up' when a talented teacher performs admirably?
Yes. It's called keeping your job.
So you are on a fixed salary? You do not receive incentives for strong months? Sounds as if you need to negotiate a little better for yourself.
I'm sure your compensation strategy for the teaching profession will make it incredibly attractive for potential educators and not only that- ensure a viable and sound system for decades that you can be so proud of. Allow me to use some of your signature emoticons (I think they are called that?) that you continually use to try and fancy up some of your points.
With over half of the new teachers quitting within 5 years of trying the job in the US... are you sure that this bold, new, 'iron balls' strategy is the best one there is? Half the people who sacrificed to get the job under it's current structure don't even want it once they get it, start working at it, and realize what it's about.
No. Just no. Nice try though.
asking 30% raise,sure seems crazy..
here in Greece,teachers,lets say with 10 years teaching take,15-17k $ per year,and most of them now begging not get fired cos of the cuts..
same things,work only 8 months,etc..all have the same opinions here
this is one side of the story....
there is another side..
these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...
isnt a easy job as all think,cos work 8 months and have sick days off and weeks at holidays..
can u imagine yourself 2-3 hours with 30 kids,lets say age 6-7 years old??
sorry,but for me,would be so hard to handle this.cant even imagine to teach them anything..
im teaching the new guys in Airforce and even they dont even move during the class,cos of military and how need to react,the even talk in plural,they ask me even permition to take a pencil from another student,
well,isnt easy at all to stand there and deal with so many different personalities and make them learn what you suppose to learn them..
im doing a difficult ,dangerous job,in Airforce,work double hours than teachers does..
but..that doesnt make easier their job.
i work and handle millions of dollars Aircraft,its very responsible work,its so unhealthy..
but teachers dealing with humans and very young,that is so hard even to listen you,imagine how hard is to teach them..
critisism is good,but when comes to teachers we all do it easy..
30% is sound and is crazy to ask imo..and union lost the way created in the first place..
but is very hard work...how hard and difficult is a job,isnt of how many hours or months per year u work..
has to do,how responsible is,what u need to study to do it,and what affect has at the society...
and the last one is very important...
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
I can only speak for my state - KY. But we are required to have a masters degree before we can get our teaching certificate. That is 30 hours beyond a bachelor's which should put me making the equivalent of other professions that have the same amount of education (lawyers and pharmacists for instance). I am also currently working on a second masters degree (typically called a Rank I) which many teachers also choose to get. I have to agree with thirtybillsunpaid that we can decrease the salary for teachers by decreasing the amount of education and responsbility required but we'll end up with babysitters not educators. I am all for accountability and I disagree with my union on a great deal but there has to be some level of compromise on both sides or we're never going to change the system.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
This thread was titled THE Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike.
Here is a little background on the Chicago Public School System.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... pbXinczLMg
Since this article was posted, I would love to know how much change there has been.
We are talking about a school system where the children consistently rank at the bottom of the barrel, as far as test scores.
We are talking about a system where almost half, if not more, of the 8th graders, DO NOT read at the 8th grade level.
We are talking about a system where the dropout level of students is at almost 50%.
We are talking about a system where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the nation.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Kentucky.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Washington DC.
I was discussing The Chicago Public Teachers, Their Union, and The Chicago Public School Sysem.
So why not keep on topic?
The Chicago Public Teachers Strike.
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
It is about the money.
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
In PA many teachers also have Master's degrees. Yet, many, if not the heavy majority, don't pay for these out of their pocket - the school assists. Did you pay for yours?
<object height="81" width="100%"> <param name="movie" value="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869"></param> <param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param> <embed allowscriptaccess="always" height="81" src="https://player.soundcloud.com/player.swf?url=http://api.soundcloud.com/tracks/28998869" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="100%"></embed> </object> <span><a href=" - In the Fire (demo)</a> by <a href="
and you are telling me that $32M isn't considered when the union comes up with salary demands? you know damn well they are planning for their pocket padding
as for watered down education system...i never said that....nor do i want that. i do want admin's cut and unions deleted from chicago schools.
i'm still waiting for someone to tell me what that $32M buys me. obviously, not a t shirt.
While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.
i don't recall picking up much of my character from teachers...more from friends and family...not to mention, we are sort of born with a predetermined mindset, although it can be influnced some.