Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike...

Jeanwah

riotgrl wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

81 wrote:

i think only people with kids should pay for schools/teachers/admins/pensions

I agree

But don't we all benefit from a well educated populace? If you are a small business owner then that means you have a ready and able workforce. If you are an HR manager then you have a large work pool to chose from. If no one else benefited then I could see the rationale but there are thousands of way you benefit from other peoples children getting that education.

riotgrl, you must know that the American Way is to so individualized that taking care of each other would be labeled "Socialist", and no one on the board can even fathom that! :lolno:

peacefrompaul

riotgrl wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

81 wrote:

i think only people with kids should pay for schools/teachers/admins/pensions

I agree

But don't we all benefit from a well educated populace? If you are a small business owner then that means you have a ready and able workforce. If you are an HR manager then you have a large work pool to chose from. If no one else benefited then I could see the rationale but there are thousands of way you benefit from other peoples children getting that education.

True, I still think that there are other ways to do it than through taxes... ultimately left up to each state to decide. I guess I don't fully agree with 81, but, I hate seeing money go to waste on... well, lets say a high school student that doesn't want to be in school at all.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

peacefrompaul wrote:

81 wrote:

i think only people with kids should pay for schools/teachers/admins/pensions

I agree

Incredibly short-sighted line of thinking. Ridiculous to be honest.

So... in the same vein... only those that contributed to an education fund can access the buildings being designed by architects and engineers... or visit doctors... or...?

peacefrompaul

Jeanwah wrote:

riotgrl, you must know that the American Way is to so individualized that taking care of each other would be labeled "Socialist", and no one on the board can even fathom that! :lolno:

Government taking care of YOU: pretty Socialist... not how I'd want it... but, I've had some good chats with actual Socialists. Are there exceptions where I like government? Of course.

Take care of yourself, give money to the charities of your choice, be free... no need to suck on the government's balls if you don't have to.

peacefrompaul

I know a free market is a pretty scary thought.

I'll just bow out now.

comebackgirl

fife wrote:

DS1119 wrote:

Cliffy6745 wrote:

So what is your solution to fix it and educate our poor?

You and others can always donate your money to the educational system instead of it being mandated by ever increasing school taxes. Also educators that feel so strongly about it "being about the kids" can always donate their time.

yes that the right answer. donate your money screw robbing people of their taxes. and if you want to be a teacher then best be prepared to not get paid for your job. :roll:

Oy...yeah I'm a little sick of hearing this on this board (not just from you DS). Why don't we demand this of other professions? Why is it always the teachers, social workers, etc? I think if that's going to be expected of one or 2 professions, it should be expected across the board of every profession. Many people in the helping professions don't do what they do for the money (if they did the joke is on them). Many work as much as is needed to get the job done and willingly donate their time. But if donating time becomes a requirement for the system to work, we might want to take another look at the system.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

The average CPS teacher, who has about 14 years of experience, gets a total compensation equal to about $74,798/year or $34.50/hour. The average percentage of CPS students who meet or exceed state standards is 66%. The percentage of CPS 11th graders who meet college readiness benchmarks is 21% in Reading, 19% in Math, 11% in Science and 38% in English.

The average Chicagoan works a comparable schedule to a CPS teacher, yet earns half as much in total compensation, 33 fewer days off, higher health care costs for lower quality health benefits and either a 401(k) that they contribute heavily into or no retirement package at all.

Thus, under the current union contract, taxpayers are paying teachers double their own salaries in exchange for student achievement that leaves about 80% of graduating CPS high school students below college readiness standards.

I'll preface what I am about to say by stating I am a teacher.

Your posts are ripe with venom and clearly reflect your disdain for a the profession. I will not weigh in too heavily on the CPS teacher's situation, but will reflect on my experience as a teacher in what might be a weak effort to convince you to soften your stance.

I used this link- in the morning- to get a sense of what might be going on in the Chicago area:

http://www.businessinsider.com/chicago- ... ars-2012-9

So let's try a little objectivity here:

Firstly, not being an expert on negotiations... I know that when two parties meet to achieve their ends... they come in swinging hard- ready to make concessions as negotiations commence (not an uncommon practice). So, let's not put too much stock on 'posturing' when we judge anything.

In the provided article, an arbitrator said teachers should receive wages between 15-20%. The district has offered 2%. So, an independent source- looking at the situation- seems to have sided somewhat in favor of teachers.

Teachers need to go to school for 5-6 years at a university before they begin their careers. So, they don't make any money during that time and they go out of pocket to get the credentials to teach. To me... this looks like (and for me was) a $300,000 deficit out of the gate... to enter a profession that pays them around $40-45,000 in their first year. It's only after 8-10 years that teachers make wages close to what you pointed out. They make more if they go earn their masters degree. In short, it's not as lucrative as you seem to imply. Teachers must pay their dues before they begin seeing 'the big money'.

The failure rates to which you and others suggest falls completely in the laps of teachers points to failings on many people's part. Imagine teaching a primary class of 25 or 30 kids where half have received the proper nurturing from their parents and taught the basics of reading and the other half have not. With such a disparity in the learning group... just think of managing such a group. I listen to parents all the time talk of how difficult it was to manage a birthday party. Maybe some talent and skills are needed?

It would be impossible to measure a teacher's value based on test scores. Some on here have suggested so and this shows their lack of thought on the subject. A teacher in the above scenario may have taught their ass off and performed unbelievably given the conditions. Test scores might not reveal this though. Likewise, a teacher within a school in a nice socio-economic setting and test scores might suggest they are awesome. In reality... they are set up for success- they might have done a good or even great job... but conditions were ripe for success. How can you compare the two performances?

With the above stated, I think some model of accountability needs to be established. What this model might look like I have no idea? Regardless, the union tends to circle the wagons around ineffective teachers at bad times and give the overwhelming majority a bad reputation. Teachers, as a whole, cannot do much about this- they are bothered by it too. As good as the union is at times... it most certainly can be a roadblock to great community relations.

Anyways, I can talk forever trying to preserve the dignity of a profession that gets kicked way too easily. I just watched the enthusiasm of my 11 year old daughter today for the news of the teacher she is about to receive for this year. My wife and I couldn't be happier for the news as well- she's going to have a great year with a guy that teaches well and will care for her as a person. Fucking rights!! How do we put a price on Mr. P? That guy is worth a ton when it is my daughter.

Why don't we just shitcan the profession? Drop credentials to a 2 year program. Lower the wages to the average salaries. And just see how that might play out. If you want good teachers (such as Mr. P) and you want good schools... then you need to motivate them to enter the profession and then you need to reward them. If anything... how about a little respect? You spoke in one of your posts and mentioned something completely stupid like, "If I was going by one of those picketing mobs... they'd be taking me away in cuffs!" What were you thinking? You were going to scrap a few of the elementary ladies? Maybe exercise some caution though... not all teachers are meek, pencil-necked geeks.

Hartydog

I'll lead off with saying I haven't read any of the other posts. But why is it in a lot of these union professions(teachers, fire fighters, cops, municipal workers auto workers, etc.) that there is a raise every year no matter how bad the economy is? And no true accountability nor performance measurement? If there are layoffs it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency? ? If there are promotions/raises it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency?

DS1119

peacefrompaul wrote:

That's pretty creepy, big brother.

Ahh, but that's the thing. Big Brother is only creepy when you're doing something wrong. Everyone in a nasty part of town likes to see a cop when they are just passing through...but no one likes to see a cop when they're doing something wrong. Point is, do nothing wrong police presence isn't an issue. Use your job Wil for example. I'm sure if you saw a police officer cruise by every ten minutes you would have no problem with that while working at a convenience store. Now take the guy standing on the corner selling drugs. You think he wants to see that cruiser every tn minutes?

DS1119

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

81 wrote:

i think only people with kids should pay for schools/teachers/admins/pensions

I agree

Incredibly short-sighted line of thinking. Ridiculous to be honest.

So... in the same vein... only those that contributed to an education fund can access the buildings being designed by architects and engineers... or visit doctors... or...?

Moronic.

But we either pay or are being paid to be in those buildings or access those services.

LikeAnOcean

I'm not taking sides on this because I don't know all the facts, but where are you getting your numbers from, Speedy?

I was always under the impression that teachers got paid shitty. My fiancée is telling me in some of the poorer parts of the city they barely get paid and that her friend was barely making 30k a year.

Ive dated a lot of city teachers and I was not under the impression they were very well off in their shitty studio apartments, unless they had a gambling problem or something they were hiding..

Teachers should be held accountable for the performance of their students but with limitations.. Good luck getting a classroom of little gangbangers to pull an Edward James Olmos Stand and Deliver..

peacefrompaul

DS1119 wrote:

peacefrompaul wrote:

That's pretty creepy, big brother.

Ahh, but that's the thing. Big Brother is only creepy when you're doing something wrong. Everyone in a nasty part of town likes to see a cop when they are just passing through...but no one likes to see a cop when they're doing something wrong. Point is, do nothing wrong police presence isn't an issue. Use your job Wil for example. I'm sure if you saw a police officer cruise by every ten minutes you would have no problem with that while working at a convenience store. Now take the guy standing on the corner selling drugs. You think he wants to see that cruiser every tn minutes?

Valid argument, I can see the Logic in it... just not the way I want the American society to be run... not in some kind of a police state.

DS1119

Hartydog wrote:

I'll lead off with saying I haven't read any of the other posts. But why is it in a lot of these union professions(teachers, fire fighters, cops, municipal workers auto workers, etc.) that there is a raise every year no matter how bad the economy is? And no true accountability nor performance measurement? If there are layoffs it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency? ? If there are promotions/raises it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency?

Unions. Plain and simple are a problem.

peacefrompaul

DS1119 wrote:

Hartydog wrote:

I'll lead off with saying I haven't read any of the other posts. But why is it in a lot of these union professions(teachers, fire fighters, cops, municipal workers auto workers, etc.) that there is a raise every year no matter how bad the economy is? And no true accountability nor performance measurement? If there are layoffs it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency? ? If there are promotions/raises it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency?

Unions. Plain and simple are a problem.

And they get their way because:

1. They have a lot of money

2. They lobby the government

81

Key is they are in talks with a .gov vs. a .com

markin ball

How much should a teacher make a year? More or less than a truck driver?

DS1119

markin ball wrote:

How much should a teacher make a year? More or less than a truck driver?

Whatever the market will bear.

usamamasan1

Unions bother me

Woot

Thirty Bills Unpaid

But we either pay or are being paid to be in those buildings or access those services.[/quote]

But you're not a stakeholder. You have made no investment in the future of your country and society. You are promoting something that would make 'leeches' of people: "People. Go reproduce. Raise your children at great expense and none to me so that I might benefit greatly when they come of the age to offer me a service!"

If not moronic... then self-serving. Which is worse?

usamamasan1

"Mayor Emanuel is right today in saying that this teacher's union strike is unnecessary and wrong," Ryan said in Portland, Ore., according to a pool report transcript. "We know that Rahm is not going to support our campaign, but on this issue and this day we stand with Mayor Rahm Emanuel."

Our next VP

Woot