i asked how you suggest handling that because test scores is a b.s method of doing that.
Why?
Now, it shouldn't be the only thing, but shouldn't it be part of it? Why are you teaching them?
i'm teaching them to help them become successful members of society. Certainly not to pass a test. Secondly many factors come in to play. The students at my school tend to perform horribly on the state tests and it has little to do with the efforts, hard work, dedication, skill or professionalism of myself or any other teacher in my school. Its completely unfair to assess my performance based on these test scores.
How should a teacher's perrformance be assessed then? And I'm being serious. If we're not supposed to look at graduation rates, standardized test scoring, college admission rates, etc. what should we be looking at?
seriously, if you want to fix the school system, you need to fix the parents.
now, i'm a bit screwy, maybe because i came from small town rural america where it was expected that you go to school and for the most part, parents cared if you were skipping.
i don't sense that alot of parents here care what their kids are doing.....
I think that's an excellent starting place. Just one factor, but I think the most important.
And small-town has nothing to do with it! I grew up in the heart of Los Angeles and my parents had the same expectations of my sister and me.
(for the most part, we did not disappoint )
While parents are part of the problem, the real problem is the union. Kill the unions!
Well let's stop educating those who cannot afford it and see what the crime rate is then. The fact of the matter is we live in the most corrupt state in the nation. We are 49th in spending for education. The education system here and across the country is a mess. I don't think there are any easy answers or alternatives.
cut 25% of the admininstrative system....and then cut pensions.
Certainly, administrative positions at the central office level, in my district at least, are severely bloated. That would be the first place to cut. In addition, I have to think some misallocation of Title I funding occurs when we have schools receiving $400,000 for professional development while other schools receive $2000. Perhaps a full audit of each district is definitely in order. Also, we have a large amount of baby boomers retiring which is going to increase pensions costs for the foreseeable future. My district does not have a pension but rather a defined benefit plan. I contribute 10% per paycheck just the same as my husband at his Fortune 500 company. I receive a percentage of my base salary based on the last 5 years of employment as a "match" by the state. I wonder how many districts around the country use this model rather than a true pension system?
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Well let's stop educating those who cannot afford it and see what the crime rate is then. The fact of the matter is we live in the most corrupt state in the nation. We are 49th in spending for education. The education system here and across the country is a mess. I don't think there are any easy answers or alternatives.
cut 25% of the admininstrative system....and then cut pensions.
Certainly, administrative positions at the central office level, in my district at least, are severely bloated. That would be the first place to cut. In addition, I have to think some misallocation of Title I funding occurs when we have schools receiving $400,000 for professional development while other schools receive $2000. Perhaps a full audit of each district is definitely in order. Also, we have a large amount of baby boomers retiring which is going to increase pensions costs for the foreseeable future. My district does not have a pension but rather a defined benefit plan. I contribute 10% per paycheck just the same as my husband at his Fortune 500 company. I receive a percentage of my base salary based on the last 5 years of employment as a "match" by the state. I wonder how many districts around the country use this model rather than a true pension system?
The governor of NY has slashed funding for all public schools. So because of the statewide union involvement, the only things that get cut out of budgets are student programs. While my district (or rather, the tax payers) continues to pay multiple step pay raises per year for teachers in addition to hefty retirements first and foremost because of the union contracts, art and music were scrapped from the curriculum. Yeah, now remind me who is the priority of the education system again? Certainly not the students.
Now, it shouldn't be the only thing, but shouldn't it be part of it? Why are you teaching them?
i'm teaching them to help them become successful members of society. Certainly not to pass a test. Secondly many factors come in to play. The students at my school tend to perform horribly on the state tests and it has little to do with the efforts, hard work, dedication, skill or professionalism of myself or any other teacher in my school. Its completely unfair to assess my performance based on these test scores.
How should a teacher's perrformance be assessed then? And I'm being serious. If we're not supposed to look at graduation rates, standardized test scoring, college admission rates, etc. what should we be looking at?
I have to agree with ds. We have to look at all those factors when assessing a teachers performance and student achievement, IMO. However, we need to create a better system of holding the kids accountable on these tests. My state initiated a new testing system last year which most teachers in my district seem to like. It is a rigorous test and actually measures what we teach and learn during the school year. However, teacher performance in regards to student performance was assessed for teacher evaluations but students were not held accountable at all. They were able to fail the test and there were no repercussions. Those students were obviously thrilled that they passed the class for the year regardless of their performance but the students who worked hard on the test (and during the year!) were pissed that they were held to the same standard as their lesser counterparts. Where is the incentive for the kid to do well when it doesn't count? This is not just a teacher problem - this is an administrative problem. And lets be real, we get directives/mandates from outside our state (i.e., No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top) which force districts to do things that are not beneficial to the kids all for the sake of money.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Well let's stop educating those who cannot afford it and see what the crime rate is then. The fact of the matter is we live in the most corrupt state in the nation. We are 49th in spending for education. The education system here and across the country is a mess. I don't think there are any easy answers or alternatives.
So giving teachers raises is the answer then? I say more police presence is the answer. Make it desirable for that kid to go to school and not hang out on a street corner. Put a cop on every corner instead of more money in teachers pockets and watch what happens to the crime rate.
cut 25% of the admininstrative system....and then cut pensions.
Certainly, administrative positions at the central office level, in my district at least, are severely bloated. That would be the first place to cut. In addition, I have to think some misallocation of Title I funding occurs when we have schools receiving $400,000 for professional development while other schools receive $2000. Perhaps a full audit of each district is definitely in order. Also, we have a large amount of baby boomers retiring which is going to increase pensions costs for the foreseeable future. My district does not have a pension but rather a defined benefit plan. I contribute 10% per paycheck just the same as my husband at his Fortune 500 company. I receive a percentage of my base salary based on the last 5 years of employment as a "match" by the state. I wonder how many districts around the country use this model rather than a true pension system?
The governor of NY has slashed funding for all public schools. So because of the statewide union involvement, the only things that get cut out of budgets are student programs. While my district (or rather, the tax payers) continues to pay multiple step pay raises per year for teachers in addition to hefty retirements first and foremost because of the union contracts, art and music were scrapped from the curriculum. Yeah, now remind me who is the priority of the education system again? Certainly not the students.
I understand that frustration. My state has also cut a great deal of funding but our union agreed to pay freezes at the administrative level and a suspension of step raises and no cost of living increase for the foreseeable future. I am ok with that because the economy sucks for everyone and I don't expect the taxpayers to fund my raise while their pay has not increased. Obviously, the union in NY sounds like they are trying to protect the teachers to the detriment of the students which is wrong. I think union support is stronger in most northern and Midwestern states which usually means that the union doesn't do what it was originally supposed to do - protect workers but not give them things that are unnecessary. However, many southern states (like mine) do not have a strong tradition of union support so we get important protections that benefit us, of course, but that are also beneficial to the kids (like lower class sizes). Too bad there can't be a compromise in states like NY so the union protects but doesn't overreach.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
i think only people with kids should pay for schools/teachers/admins/pensions
I agree
But don't we all benefit from a well educated populace? If you are a small business owner then that means you have a ready and able workforce. If you are an HR manager then you have a large work pool to chose from. If no one else benefited then I could see the rationale but there are thousands of way you benefit from other peoples children getting that education.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Certainly, administrative positions at the central office level, in my district at least, are severely bloated. That would be the first place to cut. In addition, I have to think some misallocation of Title I funding occurs when we have schools receiving $400,000 for professional development while other schools receive $2000. Perhaps a full audit of each district is definitely in order. Also, we have a large amount of baby boomers retiring which is going to increase pensions costs for the foreseeable future. My district does not have a pension but rather a defined benefit plan. I contribute 10% per paycheck just the same as my husband at his Fortune 500 company. I receive a percentage of my base salary based on the last 5 years of employment as a "match" by the state. I wonder how many districts around the country use this model rather than a true pension system?
The governor of NY has slashed funding for all public schools. So because of the statewide union involvement, the only things that get cut out of budgets are student programs. While my district (or rather, the tax payers) continues to pay multiple step pay raises per year for teachers in addition to hefty retirements first and foremost because of the union contracts, art and music were scrapped from the curriculum. Yeah, now remind me who is the priority of the education system again? Certainly not the students.
I understand that frustration. My state has also cut a great deal of funding but our union agreed to pay freezes at the administrative level and a suspension of step raises and no cost of living increase for the foreseeable future. I am ok with that because the economy sucks for everyone and I don't expect the taxpayers to fund my raise while their pay has not increased. Obviously, the union in NY sounds like they are trying to protect the teachers to the detriment of the students which is wrong. I think union support is stronger in most northern and Midwestern states which usually means that the union doesn't do what it was originally supposed to do - protect workers but not give them things that are unnecessary. However, many southern states (like mine) do not have a strong tradition of union support so we get important protections that benefit us, of course, but that are also beneficial to the kids (like lower class sizes). Too bad there can't be a compromise in states like NY so the union protects but doesn't overreach.
Pending on the union representative, some districts agree on a concession with the teachers to pay or step freezes. But the teachers have to join forces and have majority rule on any freezes. The teachers would not jointly agree to conceding in my district for the past two years, as well as the union rep refusing to compromise neither. The kids are the ones who suffer. The only way to overhaul the education system is to get rid of unions. They were created for good reason, and did what they were created to do long ago. But times have changed, the educational quality of the country has changed and unions have not changed. Get rid of them so we can see some real reform (as well as getting rid of NCLB!) Those standardized tests don't teach the kids anything, and teachers are frozen to teach to the test simply because of No Child Left Behind. Why is it still in effect??
i think only people with kids should pay for schools/teachers/admins/pensions
I agree
But don't we all benefit from a well educated populace? If you are a small business owner then that means you have a ready and able workforce. If you are an HR manager then you have a large work pool to chose from. If no one else benefited then I could see the rationale but there are thousands of way you benefit from other peoples children getting that education.
riotgrl, you must know that the American Way is to so individualized that taking care of each other would be labeled "Socialist", and no one on the board can even fathom that! :lolno:
i think only people with kids should pay for schools/teachers/admins/pensions
I agree
But don't we all benefit from a well educated populace? If you are a small business owner then that means you have a ready and able workforce. If you are an HR manager then you have a large work pool to chose from. If no one else benefited then I could see the rationale but there are thousands of way you benefit from other peoples children getting that education.
True, I still think that there are other ways to do it than through taxes... ultimately left up to each state to decide. I guess I don't fully agree with 81, but, I hate seeing money go to waste on... well, lets say a high school student that doesn't want to be in school at all.
i think only people with kids should pay for schools/teachers/admins/pensions
I agree
Incredibly short-sighted line of thinking. Ridiculous to be honest.
So... in the same vein... only those that contributed to an education fund can access the buildings being designed by architects and engineers... or visit doctors... or...?
riotgrl, you must know that the American Way is to so individualized that taking care of each other would be labeled "Socialist", and no one on the board can even fathom that! :lolno:
Government taking care of YOU: pretty Socialist... not how I'd want it... but, I've had some good chats with actual Socialists. Are there exceptions where I like government? Of course.
Take care of yourself, give money to the charities of your choice, be free... no need to suck on the government's balls if you don't have to.
So what is your solution to fix it and educate our poor?
You and others can always donate your money to the educational system instead of it being mandated by ever increasing school taxes. Also educators that feel so strongly about it "being about the kids" can always donate their time.
yes that the right answer. donate your money screw robbing people of their taxes. and if you want to be a teacher then best be prepared to not get paid for your job. :roll:
Oy...yeah I'm a little sick of hearing this on this board (not just from you DS). Why don't we demand this of other professions? Why is it always the teachers, social workers, etc? I think if that's going to be expected of one or 2 professions, it should be expected across the board of every profession. Many people in the helping professions don't do what they do for the money (if they did the joke is on them). Many work as much as is needed to get the job done and willingly donate their time. But if donating time becomes a requirement for the system to work, we might want to take another look at the system.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
The average CPS teacher, who has about 14 years of experience, gets a total compensation equal to about $74,798/year or $34.50/hour. The average percentage of CPS students who meet or exceed state standards is 66%. The percentage of CPS 11th graders who meet college readiness benchmarks is 21% in Reading, 19% in Math, 11% in Science and 38% in English.
The average Chicagoan works a comparable schedule to a CPS teacher, yet earns half as much in total compensation, 33 fewer days off, higher health care costs for lower quality health benefits and either a 401(k) that they contribute heavily into or no retirement package at all.
Thus, under the current union contract, taxpayers are paying teachers double their own salaries in exchange for student achievement that leaves about 80% of graduating CPS high school students below college readiness standards.
I'll preface what I am about to say by stating I am a teacher.
Your posts are ripe with venom and clearly reflect your disdain for a the profession. I will not weigh in too heavily on the CPS teacher's situation, but will reflect on my experience as a teacher in what might be a weak effort to convince you to soften your stance.
I used this link- in the morning- to get a sense of what might be going on in the Chicago area:
Firstly, not being an expert on negotiations... I know that when two parties meet to achieve their ends... they come in swinging hard- ready to make concessions as negotiations commence (not an uncommon practice). So, let's not put too much stock on 'posturing' when we judge anything.
In the provided article, an arbitrator said teachers should receive wages between 15-20%. The district has offered 2%. So, an independent source- looking at the situation- seems to have sided somewhat in favor of teachers.
Teachers need to go to school for 5-6 years at a university before they begin their careers. So, they don't make any money during that time and they go out of pocket to get the credentials to teach. To me... this looks like (and for me was) a $300,000 deficit out of the gate... to enter a profession that pays them around $40-45,000 in their first year. It's only after 8-10 years that teachers make wages close to what you pointed out. They make more if they go earn their masters degree. In short, it's not as lucrative as you seem to imply. Teachers must pay their dues before they begin seeing 'the big money'.
The failure rates to which you and others suggest falls completely in the laps of teachers points to failings on many people's part. Imagine teaching a primary class of 25 or 30 kids where half have received the proper nurturing from their parents and taught the basics of reading and the other half have not. With such a disparity in the learning group... just think of managing such a group. I listen to parents all the time talk of how difficult it was to manage a birthday party. Maybe some talent and skills are needed?
It would be impossible to measure a teacher's value based on test scores. Some on here have suggested so and this shows their lack of thought on the subject. A teacher in the above scenario may have taught their ass off and performed unbelievably given the conditions. Test scores might not reveal this though. Likewise, a teacher within a school in a nice socio-economic setting and test scores might suggest they are awesome. In reality... they are set up for success- they might have done a good or even great job... but conditions were ripe for success. How can you compare the two performances?
With the above stated, I think some model of accountability needs to be established. What this model might look like I have no idea? Regardless, the union tends to circle the wagons around ineffective teachers at bad times and give the overwhelming majority a bad reputation. Teachers, as a whole, cannot do much about this- they are bothered by it too. As good as the union is at times... it most certainly can be a roadblock to great community relations.
Anyways, I can talk forever trying to preserve the dignity of a profession that gets kicked way too easily. I just watched the enthusiasm of my 11 year old daughter today for the news of the teacher she is about to receive for this year. My wife and I couldn't be happier for the news as well- she's going to have a great year with a guy that teaches well and will care for her as a person. Fucking rights!! How do we put a price on Mr. P? That guy is worth a ton when it is my daughter.
Why don't we just shitcan the profession? Drop credentials to a 2 year program. Lower the wages to the average salaries. And just see how that might play out. If you want good teachers (such as Mr. P) and you want good schools... then you need to motivate them to enter the profession and then you need to reward them. If anything... how about a little respect? You spoke in one of your posts and mentioned something completely stupid like, "If I was going by one of those picketing mobs... they'd be taking me away in cuffs!" What were you thinking? You were going to scrap a few of the elementary ladies? Maybe exercise some caution though... not all teachers are meek, pencil-necked geeks.
I'll lead off with saying I haven't read any of the other posts. But why is it in a lot of these union professions(teachers, fire fighters, cops, municipal workers auto workers, etc.) that there is a raise every year no matter how bad the economy is? And no true accountability nor performance measurement? If there are layoffs it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency? ? If there are promotions/raises it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency?
Boston 9-28-04, 5-24-06, 5-25-06, 5-17-10, 8-5-16, 8-7-16, 9-2-18, 9-4-18 Ft Worth 9-15-23
Hartford 5-13-06, 6-27-08, 10-25-13
Mansfield, MA 6-30-08, 6-28-08, 7-2-03, 7-3-03, 7-11-03, 8-29-00, 8-30-00, 9-15-98, 9-16-98
Worcester 10-15-13, 10-16-13
Ahh, but that's the thing. Big Brother is only creepy when you're doing something wrong. Everyone in a nasty part of town likes to see a cop when they are just passing through...but no one likes to see a cop when they're doing something wrong. Point is, do nothing wrong police presence isn't an issue. Use your job Wil for example. I'm sure if you saw a police officer cruise by every ten minutes you would have no problem with that while working at a convenience store. Now take the guy standing on the corner selling drugs. You think he wants to see that cruiser every tn minutes?
i think only people with kids should pay for schools/teachers/admins/pensions
I agree
Incredibly short-sighted line of thinking. Ridiculous to be honest.
So... in the same vein... only those that contributed to an education fund can access the buildings being designed by architects and engineers... or visit doctors... or...?
Moronic.
But we either pay or are being paid to be in those buildings or access those services.
I'm not taking sides on this because I don't know all the facts, but where are you getting your numbers from, Speedy?
I was always under the impression that teachers got paid shitty. My fiancée is telling me in some of the poorer parts of the city they barely get paid and that her friend was barely making 30k a year.
Ive dated a lot of city teachers and I was not under the impression they were very well off in their shitty studio apartments, unless they had a gambling problem or something they were hiding..
Teachers should be held accountable for the performance of their students but with limitations.. Good luck getting a classroom of little gangbangers to pull an Edward James Olmos Stand and Deliver..
Ahh, but that's the thing. Big Brother is only creepy when you're doing something wrong. Everyone in a nasty part of town likes to see a cop when they are just passing through...but no one likes to see a cop when they're doing something wrong. Point is, do nothing wrong police presence isn't an issue. Use your job Wil for example. I'm sure if you saw a police officer cruise by every ten minutes you would have no problem with that while working at a convenience store. Now take the guy standing on the corner selling drugs. You think he wants to see that cruiser every tn minutes?
Valid argument, I can see the Logic in it... just not the way I want the American society to be run... not in some kind of a police state.
I'll lead off with saying I haven't read any of the other posts. But why is it in a lot of these union professions(teachers, fire fighters, cops, municipal workers auto workers, etc.) that there is a raise every year no matter how bad the economy is? And no true accountability nor performance measurement? If there are layoffs it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency? ? If there are promotions/raises it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency?
I'll lead off with saying I haven't read any of the other posts. But why is it in a lot of these union professions(teachers, fire fighters, cops, municipal workers auto workers, etc.) that there is a raise every year no matter how bad the economy is? And no true accountability nor performance measurement? If there are layoffs it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency? ? If there are promotions/raises it's based on seniority/tenure rather than competency?
Unions. Plain and simple are a problem.
And they get their way because:
1. They have a lot of money
2. They lobby the government
0
81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
But we either pay or are being paid to be in those buildings or access those services.[/quote]
But you're not a stakeholder. You have made no investment in the future of your country and society. You are promoting something that would make 'leeches' of people: "People. Go reproduce. Raise your children at great expense and none to me so that I might benefit greatly when they come of the age to offer me a service!"
If not moronic... then self-serving. Which is worse?
"Mayor Emanuel is right today in saying that this teacher's union strike is unnecessary and wrong," Ryan said in Portland, Ore., according to a pool report transcript. "We know that Rahm is not going to support our campaign, but on this issue and this day we stand with Mayor Rahm Emanuel."
Comments
How should a teacher's perrformance be assessed then? And I'm being serious. If we're not supposed to look at graduation rates, standardized test scoring, college admission rates, etc. what should we be looking at?
While parents are part of the problem, the real problem is the union. Kill the unions!
Certainly, administrative positions at the central office level, in my district at least, are severely bloated. That would be the first place to cut. In addition, I have to think some misallocation of Title I funding occurs when we have schools receiving $400,000 for professional development while other schools receive $2000. Perhaps a full audit of each district is definitely in order. Also, we have a large amount of baby boomers retiring which is going to increase pensions costs for the foreseeable future. My district does not have a pension but rather a defined benefit plan. I contribute 10% per paycheck just the same as my husband at his Fortune 500 company. I receive a percentage of my base salary based on the last 5 years of employment as a "match" by the state. I wonder how many districts around the country use this model rather than a true pension system?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
The governor of NY has slashed funding for all public schools. So because of the statewide union involvement, the only things that get cut out of budgets are student programs. While my district (or rather, the tax payers) continues to pay multiple step pay raises per year for teachers in addition to hefty retirements first and foremost because of the union contracts, art and music were scrapped from the curriculum. Yeah, now remind me who is the priority of the education system again? Certainly not the students.
I have to agree with ds. We have to look at all those factors when assessing a teachers performance and student achievement, IMO. However, we need to create a better system of holding the kids accountable on these tests. My state initiated a new testing system last year which most teachers in my district seem to like. It is a rigorous test and actually measures what we teach and learn during the school year. However, teacher performance in regards to student performance was assessed for teacher evaluations but students were not held accountable at all. They were able to fail the test and there were no repercussions. Those students were obviously thrilled that they passed the class for the year regardless of their performance but the students who worked hard on the test (and during the year!) were pissed that they were held to the same standard as their lesser counterparts. Where is the incentive for the kid to do well when it doesn't count? This is not just a teacher problem - this is an administrative problem. And lets be real, we get directives/mandates from outside our state (i.e., No Child Left Behind and Race to the Top) which force districts to do things that are not beneficial to the kids all for the sake of money.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
I agree
That's pretty creepy, big brother.
I understand that frustration. My state has also cut a great deal of funding but our union agreed to pay freezes at the administrative level and a suspension of step raises and no cost of living increase for the foreseeable future. I am ok with that because the economy sucks for everyone and I don't expect the taxpayers to fund my raise while their pay has not increased. Obviously, the union in NY sounds like they are trying to protect the teachers to the detriment of the students which is wrong. I think union support is stronger in most northern and Midwestern states which usually means that the union doesn't do what it was originally supposed to do - protect workers but not give them things that are unnecessary. However, many southern states (like mine) do not have a strong tradition of union support so we get important protections that benefit us, of course, but that are also beneficial to the kids (like lower class sizes). Too bad there can't be a compromise in states like NY so the union protects but doesn't overreach.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
But don't we all benefit from a well educated populace? If you are a small business owner then that means you have a ready and able workforce. If you are an HR manager then you have a large work pool to chose from. If no one else benefited then I could see the rationale but there are thousands of way you benefit from other peoples children getting that education.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
Pending on the union representative, some districts agree on a concession with the teachers to pay or step freezes. But the teachers have to join forces and have majority rule on any freezes. The teachers would not jointly agree to conceding in my district for the past two years, as well as the union rep refusing to compromise neither. The kids are the ones who suffer. The only way to overhaul the education system is to get rid of unions. They were created for good reason, and did what they were created to do long ago. But times have changed, the educational quality of the country has changed and unions have not changed. Get rid of them so we can see some real reform (as well as getting rid of NCLB!) Those standardized tests don't teach the kids anything, and teachers are frozen to teach to the test simply because of No Child Left Behind. Why is it still in effect??
riotgrl, you must know that the American Way is to so individualized that taking care of each other would be labeled "Socialist", and no one on the board can even fathom that! :lolno:
True, I still think that there are other ways to do it than through taxes... ultimately left up to each state to decide. I guess I don't fully agree with 81, but, I hate seeing money go to waste on... well, lets say a high school student that doesn't want to be in school at all.
Incredibly short-sighted line of thinking. Ridiculous to be honest.
So... in the same vein... only those that contributed to an education fund can access the buildings being designed by architects and engineers... or visit doctors... or...?
Government taking care of YOU: pretty Socialist... not how I'd want it... but, I've had some good chats with actual Socialists. Are there exceptions where I like government? Of course.
Take care of yourself, give money to the charities of your choice, be free... no need to suck on the government's balls if you don't have to.
I'll just bow out now.
Oy...yeah I'm a little sick of hearing this on this board (not just from you DS). Why don't we demand this of other professions? Why is it always the teachers, social workers, etc? I think if that's going to be expected of one or 2 professions, it should be expected across the board of every profession. Many people in the helping professions don't do what they do for the money (if they did the joke is on them). Many work as much as is needed to get the job done and willingly donate their time. But if donating time becomes a requirement for the system to work, we might want to take another look at the system.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
I'll preface what I am about to say by stating I am a teacher.
Your posts are ripe with venom and clearly reflect your disdain for a the profession. I will not weigh in too heavily on the CPS teacher's situation, but will reflect on my experience as a teacher in what might be a weak effort to convince you to soften your stance.
I used this link- in the morning- to get a sense of what might be going on in the Chicago area:
http://www.businessinsider.com/chicago- ... ars-2012-9
So let's try a little objectivity here:
Firstly, not being an expert on negotiations... I know that when two parties meet to achieve their ends... they come in swinging hard- ready to make concessions as negotiations commence (not an uncommon practice). So, let's not put too much stock on 'posturing' when we judge anything.
In the provided article, an arbitrator said teachers should receive wages between 15-20%. The district has offered 2%. So, an independent source- looking at the situation- seems to have sided somewhat in favor of teachers.
Teachers need to go to school for 5-6 years at a university before they begin their careers. So, they don't make any money during that time and they go out of pocket to get the credentials to teach. To me... this looks like (and for me was) a $300,000 deficit out of the gate... to enter a profession that pays them around $40-45,000 in their first year. It's only after 8-10 years that teachers make wages close to what you pointed out. They make more if they go earn their masters degree. In short, it's not as lucrative as you seem to imply. Teachers must pay their dues before they begin seeing 'the big money'.
The failure rates to which you and others suggest falls completely in the laps of teachers points to failings on many people's part. Imagine teaching a primary class of 25 or 30 kids where half have received the proper nurturing from their parents and taught the basics of reading and the other half have not. With such a disparity in the learning group... just think of managing such a group. I listen to parents all the time talk of how difficult it was to manage a birthday party. Maybe some talent and skills are needed?
It would be impossible to measure a teacher's value based on test scores. Some on here have suggested so and this shows their lack of thought on the subject. A teacher in the above scenario may have taught their ass off and performed unbelievably given the conditions. Test scores might not reveal this though. Likewise, a teacher within a school in a nice socio-economic setting and test scores might suggest they are awesome. In reality... they are set up for success- they might have done a good or even great job... but conditions were ripe for success. How can you compare the two performances?
With the above stated, I think some model of accountability needs to be established. What this model might look like I have no idea? Regardless, the union tends to circle the wagons around ineffective teachers at bad times and give the overwhelming majority a bad reputation. Teachers, as a whole, cannot do much about this- they are bothered by it too. As good as the union is at times... it most certainly can be a roadblock to great community relations.
Anyways, I can talk forever trying to preserve the dignity of a profession that gets kicked way too easily. I just watched the enthusiasm of my 11 year old daughter today for the news of the teacher she is about to receive for this year. My wife and I couldn't be happier for the news as well- she's going to have a great year with a guy that teaches well and will care for her as a person. Fucking rights!! How do we put a price on Mr. P? That guy is worth a ton when it is my daughter.
Why don't we just shitcan the profession? Drop credentials to a 2 year program. Lower the wages to the average salaries. And just see how that might play out. If you want good teachers (such as Mr. P) and you want good schools... then you need to motivate them to enter the profession and then you need to reward them. If anything... how about a little respect? You spoke in one of your posts and mentioned something completely stupid like, "If I was going by one of those picketing mobs... they'd be taking me away in cuffs!" What were you thinking? You were going to scrap a few of the elementary ladies? Maybe exercise some caution though... not all teachers are meek, pencil-necked geeks.
Ft Worth 9-15-23
Hartford 5-13-06, 6-27-08, 10-25-13
Mansfield, MA 6-30-08, 6-28-08, 7-2-03, 7-3-03, 7-11-03, 8-29-00, 8-30-00, 9-15-98, 9-16-98
Worcester 10-15-13, 10-16-13
Ahh, but that's the thing. Big Brother is only creepy when you're doing something wrong. Everyone in a nasty part of town likes to see a cop when they are just passing through...but no one likes to see a cop when they're doing something wrong. Point is, do nothing wrong police presence isn't an issue. Use your job Wil for example. I'm sure if you saw a police officer cruise by every ten minutes you would have no problem with that while working at a convenience store. Now take the guy standing on the corner selling drugs. You think he wants to see that cruiser every tn minutes?
But we either pay or are being paid to be in those buildings or access those services.
I was always under the impression that teachers got paid shitty. My fiancée is telling me in some of the poorer parts of the city they barely get paid and that her friend was barely making 30k a year.
Ive dated a lot of city teachers and I was not under the impression they were very well off in their shitty studio apartments, unless they had a gambling problem or something they were hiding..
Teachers should be held accountable for the performance of their students but with limitations.. Good luck getting a classroom of little gangbangers to pull an Edward James Olmos Stand and Deliver..
Valid argument, I can see the Logic in it... just not the way I want the American society to be run... not in some kind of a police state.
Unions. Plain and simple are a problem.
And they get their way because:
1. They have a lot of money
2. They lobby the government
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Whatever the market will bear.
Woot
But you're not a stakeholder. You have made no investment in the future of your country and society. You are promoting something that would make 'leeches' of people: "People. Go reproduce. Raise your children at great expense and none to me so that I might benefit greatly when they come of the age to offer me a service!"
If not moronic... then self-serving. Which is worse?
Our next VP
Woot