these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...
While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.
no,i dont..
teachers spent the same hours with kids per day as their parent..8 hours scholl,8 hours sleep 8 hours with family,nanny,grandparents..etc
teachers are very important role in kids life,grow up,and create their personality..
its not just a job that helps...for me its so inportant as serving your country..
this isn't about the importance of teachers, it's about employment contracts and teachers trying to bend over Joe Taxpayer
this isn't about the importance of teachers, it's about employment contracts and teachers trying to bend over Joe Taxpayer
yep,i know,just answering to cincybearcat opinion
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
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2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
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10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
I quickly read the actual study. It's not worth much to me. As I said before, the sciences and a few other fields are more difficult, but this study is based on GPA and there are far too many variables that are left out.
And, as it says in the link you provided, a lot relies on the individual. An individual earning a degree in Eduaction can put the same number of hours and the same level of hard work into their degree as someone earning their degree in Econ.
Yeah I don't make much of the study either. It largely depends on your particular learning style (the study acknowledges this). Some people can excel at Chem 4, but would struggle with a visual arts class. Psychology harder than Physics? I think there are probably other factors that account for the lower GPAs and attrition rates. A lot of psychology majors are drawn to the field because of their own personal difficulties...those same difficulties can often get in the way of their education and lead to higher attrition rates. Education majors at my college have to have a double major - i.e. Education/math, Education/chem, etc., so that has to be taken into account. They have to enter the teacher certification program after they finish their BA/BS, adding at least an additional year to the required education. It's also important to remember that not all Master Degrees are created equal - some are 30 credits, some 45, some 60. Maybe Chem/Math/Econ majors just like to party a lot, hence the lower GPAs/higher attrition rates :think: hmmmm...probably not I have seen some students pursue teaching for the "perks" rather than the passion for teaching; they usually self-select out after student teaching or a year or two on the job.
There was a post earlier in the thread about college professors making less than public school teachers; in NJ higher ed faculty and professional staff are in the same union as pre-k - 12 teachers (AFT), so there would be similar pay scales, benefits. I'm not sure how that works in other states, including Illinois.
Anyway...I understand debating union spending, employment contracts, accountability and taxes, and exploring if the system could/should be changed. I don't think there's a need to debate the teaching profession or those who choose to pursue it; most pursue it for the passion of the work. It bothers me that when discussions on these topic comes up it often devolves into a debate of the professionals themselves.
Post edited by comebackgirl on
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
Either times have changed considerably since I was in college in the 70s or that article is a crock. I have 2 degrees in English and I worked my ass off to earn them.
Back to thread integrity: I would not have imagined that a teacher's strike would have generated this much response in such a short amount of time. Things are very different here in Texas, which is a right to work state. Teachers don't have this kind of union and they don't have these kinds of salaries. Their retirement is pathetic. However, they still receive the same lack of respect I'm seeing expressed here.
Very tough job. I love to teach but I wouldn't be a public school teacher for anything.
Teachers should be held accountable, just like everyone else.
How about this. Create a standardized end of the year test for students.
Student improvement will be based off of their first year scores, so kindergarten teachers luck out on this evaluation system..
If students make comparable, expected improvements over their previous score you get to keep your job with a pay increase adjusted for inflation.
If, over all, your students show improvement over their trends, you get a well earned raise based on average student improvements.. If you can pull a Stand and Deliver every year, you will be the highest paid, most sought after teacher. If you just get the kids by, you will just get by with your pay adjusted for inflation.
Seems fair to me.. And the higher rated teachers get hired first if they get laid off.
Of course, if we end up having a lot of teachers turning gangbangers into scientists, tax payers better be ready to cough up the money, which they won't.. So we are back to leaving students to their own motivations..
Why Do People Hate Teachers Unions? Because They Hate Teachers.
12
SEP
Like Doug Henwood, I’ve spent the last few days trying to figure out why people—particularly liberals and pseudo-liberals in the chattering classes—hate teachers unions. One could of course take these people at their word—they care about the kids, they worry that strikes hurt the kids, and so on—but since we never hear a peep out of them about the fact that students have to swelter through 98-degree weather in jam-packed classes without air conditioning, I’m not so inclined.
Forgive me then if I essay an admittedly more impressionistic analysis drawn from my own experience.
Like many of these journalists, I hail from an upper middle class background. I grew up in Chappaqua, an affluent suburb of New York. My parents moved there in 1975 for the schools, which were—and I believe still are—terrific. From elementary school through senior year, I had some of the best teachers I’ve ever encountered.
Two of my social studies teachers—Allan Damon and Tom Corwin—had more of an impact on me than any professor I ever had in college or grad school. In their classes, I read Richard Hofstadter’s Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, E.H. Carr’s What Is History?, Michael Kammen’s People of Paradox, Hobbes, Locke, Richard Hakluyt, Albert Thayer Mahan, and more. When I got to college, I found that I was considerably better prepared than my classmates, many of whom had gone to elite private schools in Manhattan and elsewhere. It’s safe to say I would never have become an academic were it not for these two men.
We also had a terrific performing arts program. Phil Stewart, Chappaqua’s legendary acting teacher, trained Vanessa Williams, Roxanne Hart, Dar Williams, and more. We put on obscure musicals and destabilizing plays like The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. Ronald Dunn, our choral teacher, had us singing Leonard Bernstein’s Chichester Psalms, Vivaldi’s Gloria, and the works of Fauré. So inspiring were these teachers that many of us went onto organize our own plays, musicals, and a cappella groups, while we were still in high school.
Despite this, many kids and their parents held teachers in contempt. Teachers were not figures of respect or gratitude; they were incompetents and buffoons. Don’t get me wrong: like most people, I had some terrible teachers. Incompetents and worse. But like most people I’ve also had some terrible friends, some terrible co-workers, some terrible neighbors, some terrible doctors, some terrible editors, and some terrible professors. Mediocrity, I’d venture, is a more or less universal feature of the human condition. But among the upper classes it’s treated as the exclusive preserve of teachers.
It’s odd. Even if you’re the most toolish striver—i.e., many of the people I grew up with—teachers are your ticket to the Ivy League. And if you’re an intellectually ambitious academic type like me, they’re even more critical. Like I said, people move to Chappaqua for the schools, and if the graduation and post-graduate statistics are any indication—in my graduating class of 270, I’d guess about 50 of us went onto an Ivy League school—they’re getting their money’s worth. Yet many people I grew up with treated teachers as bumptious figures of ridicule—and not in your anarchist-critique-of-all-social-institutions kind of way.
It’s clear where the kids got it from: the parents. Every year there’d be a fight in the town over the school budget, and every year a vocal contingent would scream that the town was wasting money (and raising needless taxes) on its schools. Especially on the teachers (I never heard anyone criticize the sports teams). People hate paying taxes for any number of reasons—though financial hardship, in this case, was hardly one of them—but there was a special pique reserved for what the taxes were mostly going to: the teachers.
In my childhood world, grown ups basically saw teachers as failures and fuck-ups. “Those who can’t do, teach” goes the old saw. But where that traditionally bespoke a suspicion of fancy ideas that didn’t produce anything concrete, in my fancy suburb, it meant something else. Teachers had opted out of the capitalist game; they weren’t in this world for money. There could be only one reason for that: they were losers. They were dimwitted, unambitious, complacent, unimaginative, and risk-averse. They were middle class.
No one, we were sure, became a teacher because she loved history or literature and wanted to pass that on to the next generation. All of them simply had no other choice. How did we know that? Because they weren’t lawyers or doctors or “businessmen”—one of those words, even in the post-Madmen era, still spoken with veneration and awe. It was a circular argument, to be sure, but its circularity merely reflected the closed universe of assumption in which we operated.
Like my teachers, I have chosen a career in education and don’t make a lot of money. Unlike them, I’m a professor. I’m continuously astonished at the pass that gets me among the people I grew up with. Had I chosen to be a high-school teacher, I’d be just another loser. But tenured professors are different. Especially if we teach in elite schools (which I don’t.) We’re more talented, more refined, more ambitious—more like them. We’re capitalist tools, too.
So that’s where and how I grew up. And when I hear journalists and commentators, many of them fresh out of the Ivy League, talking to teachers as if they were servants trying to steal the family silver, that’s what I hear. It’s an ugly tone from ugly people.
Every so often I want to ask them, “Didn’t your parents teach you better manners?” Then I remember whom I’m dealing with.
Update (September 13, 12:45 am)
I’ve gotten a fair amount of flak from liberals, on Twitter and in the comments, who claim I’m being unfair to liberal critics of the teachers union—I’m not taking their arguments seriously, making assumptions about their elitism, etc.
I want you all to have a listen to one liberal critic—Andy Rotherham, who has a column at Time— on the Diane Rehm Show. This is what he says (at 50:30):
Part of this strike, it’s pretty clear, is that the union needed to have some theater for its members, let them blow off some steam, and that’s increasingly obvious.
Remember, he’s talking about a union led by an African-American woman, in a school district where 40 percent of the kids are black. Look at ‘em all, blowing off steam.
Yeah, I was really being unfair.
(Also on the show is the indispensable Diane Ravitch, who does a pretty excellent job — when Rehm lets her speak — of debunking the liberal shibboleths in this debate. If you’re wondering why I don’t engage the arguments more, it’s because Ravitch already has. Again and again and again and again.)
these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...
While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.
no,i dont..
teachers spent the same hours with kids per day as their parent..8 hours scholl,8 hours sleep 8 hours with family,nanny,grandparents..etc
teachers are very important role in kids life,grow up,and create their personality..
its not just a job that helps...for me its so inportant as serving your country..
I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that the parents need to step up and do all that for their kids. The teacher are there to educate, they shouldn;t be doing all that other stuff.
1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
I quickly read the actual study. It's not worth much to me. As I said before, the sciences and a few other fields are more difficult, but this study is based on GPA and there are far too many variables that are left out.
And, as it says in the link you provided, a lot relies on the individual. An individual earning a degree in Eduaction can put the same number of hours and the same level of hard work into their degree as someone earning their degree in Econ.
Where are the majors that actually get you jobs on that list? Engineering, etc.?
Why Do People Hate Teachers Unions? Because They Hate Teachers.
After that title, not even going to read that stupid shit.
i'll paraphrase...people look down at teacher's because they opted out of the capitalist game so there's an assumption that there's something wrong with them. why else would you go on to teach if you could be important - like a businessman or woman? of course none of those people got there without teachers, but its easy to hate them and assume that they suck at their jobs.
Why Do People Hate Teachers Unions? Because They Hate Teachers.
After that title, not even going to read that stupid shit.
i'll paraphrase...people look down at teacher's because they opted out of the capitalist game so there's an assumption that there's something wrong with them. why else would you go on to teach if you could be important - like a businessman or woman? of course none of those people got there without teachers, but its easy to hate them and assume that they suck at their jobs.
I'll summarize for you, disliking a union that provides bad teachers a lifetime job at the cost of good teachers and children doesn't mean you hate teachers.
I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that the parents need to step up and do all that for their kids. The teacher are there to educate, they shouldn;t be doing all that other stuff.
oh,,ok..now i got it..thanks
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
in what way do you propose could anyone evaluate how good a job a teacher is doing? you have this idea that tracking students from the start of the year to the end is a fair way to "grade" teachers, but that's so shortsighted. First, saying a teacher that got students to pass a test at a better rate than others is like saying that Phil Knight is successful because his company makes a shit ton of money, but doesn't look at the damage Nike has done to the environment, to US wage labor, to overseas sweathshop labor and more. Phil Knight should be in jail for what he's done, not celebrated for being a success. Teachers who can teach to a test but can't teach kids how to think are doing a huge disservice to our society. They are forced to produce mindless drones that have little to offer other than the ability to take a test when they get out of school.
Second, how do you quantify learning? How do you quantify anything without biasing the outcome by asking the questions that some "board" thinks is important? What if they aren't asking the right question(s) on the standardized tests? What if they don't take into account the various contexts from which students emerge? Won't that dramatically effect the outcomes of your evaluation criteria. As such, wouldn't there be a good chance that good teachers get punished and bad get handed raises? Doesn't that just put us right back where we are?
1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
I quickly read the actual study. It's not worth much to me. As I said before, the sciences and a few other fields are more difficult, but this study is based on GPA and there are far too many variables that are left out.
And, as it says in the link you provided, a lot relies on the individual. An individual earning a degree in Eduaction can put the same number of hours and the same level of hard work into their degree as someone earning their degree in Econ.
Where are the majors that actually get you jobs on that list? Engineering, etc.?
I noticed engineering, finance, marketing, etc. missing. I think that means they are middle of the road. Not too high, not too low. They obviously didn't include every major in the list, just the one's that are easiest to get good grades and the one's that are hardest to get good grades. The others were probably included in the study, but not included in the top 10 and bottom 10.
I'll summarize for you, disliking a union that provides bad teachers a lifetime job at the cost of good teachers and children doesn't mean you hate teachers.
The author is an idiot pure and simple.
So you're worried about people getting lifetime jobs doing something very few want to do for very little reimbursement with regard to the amount of work put in becoming a teacher vs. other jobs? without tenure, time to be with family in the summer, or the other "benefits" of being a teacher who would become one? not saying it's perfect but if you do away with teacher's unions and turn the job into a free market free-for-all (more so than W. and Obama have made it) this country is more fucked than it already is, because even fewer people are going to want to teach.
So you're worried about people getting lifetime jobs doing something very few want to do for very little reimbursement with regard to the amount of work put in becoming a teacher vs. other jobs? without tenure, time to be with family in the summer, or the other "benefits" of being a teacher who would become one? not saying it's perfect but if you do away with teacher's unions and turn the job into a free market free-for-all (more so than W. and Obama have made it) this country is more fucked than it already is, because even fewer people are going to want to teach.
and who would want to teach considering the lack of support teachers get. theyre expected to be some sort of super hero lifting all children to a level of knowledge and skill thats just not possible considering.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Why Do People Hate Teachers Unions? Because They Hate Teachers.
After that title, not even going to read that stupid shit.
Why not? It's not a massive piece that wears your finger out while pressing the down button.
RW took the time to offer a contribution to a thread that has been somewhat heated. He obviously felt the piece offered something to the discussion. You dismiss his effort that easily- because you know what the piece might be about given the title?
Cincy... I think you have been somewhat of a moderate on this board. You've contributed to this thread in a relatively fair- and productive- manner; however, I think your response was really disrespectful to say the least. I'm kind of surprised to be honest.
I would like to think of threads such as this as opportunities to challenge our ways of thinking. I have advocated for teachers, but I have listened to what others have had to say. I have reflected on my own practice and the state of affairs where I live. I would like to think as a result of doing so, I have become even the slightest bit better. If I closed my mind to the opposing point of view, well, then what I have just said could not be uttered. I would be the same as I was before I entered into this discussion and not the better for it.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
so my conclusion is, all the teachers support the chicago teacher union, everyone else thinks they are a waste
Cincy... I think you have been somewhat of a moderate on this board. You've contributed to this thread in a relatively fair- and productive- manner; however, I think your response was really disrespectful to say the least. I'm kind of surprised to be honest.
yeah, fair enough. My anger was at the author, not the poster.
I think blank statements like "If you hate the teachers union, it's because you hate teachers" are one of the biggest problems. It stifles actual discussion. It;s the old, you're either with us or against us mentality that I bet most teachers here were pissed off about when GW said it. If you hate something...
Cincy... I think you have been somewhat of a moderate on this board. You've contributed to this thread in a relatively fair- and productive- manner; however, I think your response was really disrespectful to say the least. I'm kind of surprised to be honest.
yeah, fair enough. My anger was at the author, not the poster.
I think blank statements like "If you hate the teachers union, it's because you hate teachers" are one of the biggest problems. It stifles actual discussion. It;s the old, you're either with us or against us mentality that I bet most teachers here were pissed off about when GW said it. If you hate something...
Wasn't trying to beat you down- just pointing it out to you in the event you never considered it. I'd expect you to do the same for me.
You've posed a few questions for me that I never responded to. In particular:
"Someone mentioned that the retention of teachers is an issue. If it was performance based, and you could earn more $ than bad teachers...would that keep them in the system? I think so".
My thoughts are in progress over this one. I'm a little unwilling to respond without formulating a solid idea relevant to it. I meant to get back to you- I haven't ignored this and thank you for it.
so my conclusion is, all the teachers support the chicago teacher union, everyone else thinks they are a waste
:corn:
I'd be one teacher who would violate this premise, but then again I don't teach grade school or high school. So, yeh - I agree. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
I kinda wish the teachers on here and protesting would actually think out what those opposed are saying. Basically - look you made the choice to be a teacher. We admire that choice - it's a great and important job. There was a reason you made that choice - hopefully it wasn't a strict monetary/lifestyle decision - instead you really wanted to educate. At this point, we just can't afford to give you more and more money (or benefits) because of the downturn in the national and regional economies and the gov't coffers being pretty much broke. Lots of folks are having hard times right now. Many are losing their jobs. Just like anyone in the private sector is lucky to have a job right now, you are too. Those private sector folks have a tough time looking at friends and family losing jobs, jobs being downsized, etc. when you're out clamoring for higher pay and better benefits. Many think, we're all making sacrifices - and since you're a public employee being paid tax money, public school teachers probably should too. Now please go back to teaching. Thank you for your service.
I'll summarize for you, disliking a union that provides bad teachers a lifetime job at the cost of good teachers and children doesn't mean you hate teachers.
The author is an idiot pure and simple.
So you're worried about people getting lifetime jobs doing something very few want to do for very little reimbursement with regard to the amount of work put in becoming a teacher vs. other jobs? without tenure, time to be with family in the summer, or the other "benefits" of being a teacher who would become one? not saying it's perfect but if you do away with teacher's unions and turn the job into a free market free-for-all (more so than W. and Obama have made it) this country is more fucked than it already is, because even fewer people are going to want to teach.
No, I;'m worried about the kids and our school system and don;t think it works with the teachers union.
I've thought about teaching a lot. And it's something I may still end up doing in the future. The one thing that holds me back is I don;t want to be in a teacher's union and I dislike school boards and PTOs more than I do manufacturing leadership teams and industrial unions.
Comments
this isn't about the importance of teachers, it's about employment contracts and teachers trying to bend over Joe Taxpayer
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
There was a post earlier in the thread about college professors making less than public school teachers; in NJ higher ed faculty and professional staff are in the same union as pre-k - 12 teachers (AFT), so there would be similar pay scales, benefits. I'm not sure how that works in other states, including Illinois.
Anyway...I understand debating union spending, employment contracts, accountability and taxes, and exploring if the system could/should be changed. I don't think there's a need to debate the teaching profession or those who choose to pursue it; most pursue it for the passion of the work. It bothers me that when discussions on these topic comes up it often devolves into a debate of the professionals themselves.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
Yes indeed.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
Oh Lord, the reading required for those Majors..
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
They really shit on you at the 300 level.
"I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
Either times have changed considerably since I was in college in the 70s or that article is a crock. I have 2 degrees in English and I worked my ass off to earn them.
Back to thread integrity: I would not have imagined that a teacher's strike would have generated this much response in such a short amount of time. Things are very different here in Texas, which is a right to work state. Teachers don't have this kind of union and they don't have these kinds of salaries. Their retirement is pathetic. However, they still receive the same lack of respect I'm seeing expressed here.
Very tough job. I love to teach but I wouldn't be a public school teacher for anything.
How about this. Create a standardized end of the year test for students.
Student improvement will be based off of their first year scores, so kindergarten teachers luck out on this evaluation system..
If students make comparable, expected improvements over their previous score you get to keep your job with a pay increase adjusted for inflation.
If, over all, your students show improvement over their trends, you get a well earned raise based on average student improvements.. If you can pull a Stand and Deliver every year, you will be the highest paid, most sought after teacher. If you just get the kids by, you will just get by with your pay adjusted for inflation.
Seems fair to me.. And the higher rated teachers get hired first if they get laid off.
Of course, if we end up having a lot of teachers turning gangbangers into scientists, tax payers better be ready to cough up the money, which they won't.. So we are back to leaving students to their own motivations..
Why Do People Hate Teachers Unions? Because They Hate Teachers.
12
SEP
Like Doug Henwood, I’ve spent the last few days trying to figure out why people—particularly liberals and pseudo-liberals in the chattering classes—hate teachers unions. One could of course take these people at their word—they care about the kids, they worry that strikes hurt the kids, and so on—but since we never hear a peep out of them about the fact that students have to swelter through 98-degree weather in jam-packed classes without air conditioning, I’m not so inclined.
Forgive me then if I essay an admittedly more impressionistic analysis drawn from my own experience.
Like many of these journalists, I hail from an upper middle class background. I grew up in Chappaqua, an affluent suburb of New York. My parents moved there in 1975 for the schools, which were—and I believe still are—terrific. From elementary school through senior year, I had some of the best teachers I’ve ever encountered.
Two of my social studies teachers—Allan Damon and Tom Corwin—had more of an impact on me than any professor I ever had in college or grad school. In their classes, I read Richard Hofstadter’s Anti-Intellectualism in American Life, E.H. Carr’s What Is History?, Michael Kammen’s People of Paradox, Hobbes, Locke, Richard Hakluyt, Albert Thayer Mahan, and more. When I got to college, I found that I was considerably better prepared than my classmates, many of whom had gone to elite private schools in Manhattan and elsewhere. It’s safe to say I would never have become an academic were it not for these two men.
We also had a terrific performing arts program. Phil Stewart, Chappaqua’s legendary acting teacher, trained Vanessa Williams, Roxanne Hart, Dar Williams, and more. We put on obscure musicals and destabilizing plays like The Prime of Miss Jean Brodie. Ronald Dunn, our choral teacher, had us singing Leonard Bernstein’s Chichester Psalms, Vivaldi’s Gloria, and the works of Fauré. So inspiring were these teachers that many of us went onto organize our own plays, musicals, and a cappella groups, while we were still in high school.
Despite this, many kids and their parents held teachers in contempt. Teachers were not figures of respect or gratitude; they were incompetents and buffoons. Don’t get me wrong: like most people, I had some terrible teachers. Incompetents and worse. But like most people I’ve also had some terrible friends, some terrible co-workers, some terrible neighbors, some terrible doctors, some terrible editors, and some terrible professors. Mediocrity, I’d venture, is a more or less universal feature of the human condition. But among the upper classes it’s treated as the exclusive preserve of teachers.
It’s odd. Even if you’re the most toolish striver—i.e., many of the people I grew up with—teachers are your ticket to the Ivy League. And if you’re an intellectually ambitious academic type like me, they’re even more critical. Like I said, people move to Chappaqua for the schools, and if the graduation and post-graduate statistics are any indication—in my graduating class of 270, I’d guess about 50 of us went onto an Ivy League school—they’re getting their money’s worth. Yet many people I grew up with treated teachers as bumptious figures of ridicule—and not in your anarchist-critique-of-all-social-institutions kind of way.
It’s clear where the kids got it from: the parents. Every year there’d be a fight in the town over the school budget, and every year a vocal contingent would scream that the town was wasting money (and raising needless taxes) on its schools. Especially on the teachers (I never heard anyone criticize the sports teams). People hate paying taxes for any number of reasons—though financial hardship, in this case, was hardly one of them—but there was a special pique reserved for what the taxes were mostly going to: the teachers.
In my childhood world, grown ups basically saw teachers as failures and fuck-ups. “Those who can’t do, teach” goes the old saw. But where that traditionally bespoke a suspicion of fancy ideas that didn’t produce anything concrete, in my fancy suburb, it meant something else. Teachers had opted out of the capitalist game; they weren’t in this world for money. There could be only one reason for that: they were losers. They were dimwitted, unambitious, complacent, unimaginative, and risk-averse. They were middle class.
No one, we were sure, became a teacher because she loved history or literature and wanted to pass that on to the next generation. All of them simply had no other choice. How did we know that? Because they weren’t lawyers or doctors or “businessmen”—one of those words, even in the post-Madmen era, still spoken with veneration and awe. It was a circular argument, to be sure, but its circularity merely reflected the closed universe of assumption in which we operated.
Like my teachers, I have chosen a career in education and don’t make a lot of money. Unlike them, I’m a professor. I’m continuously astonished at the pass that gets me among the people I grew up with. Had I chosen to be a high-school teacher, I’d be just another loser. But tenured professors are different. Especially if we teach in elite schools (which I don’t.) We’re more talented, more refined, more ambitious—more like them. We’re capitalist tools, too.
So that’s where and how I grew up. And when I hear journalists and commentators, many of them fresh out of the Ivy League, talking to teachers as if they were servants trying to steal the family silver, that’s what I hear. It’s an ugly tone from ugly people.
Every so often I want to ask them, “Didn’t your parents teach you better manners?” Then I remember whom I’m dealing with.
Update (September 13, 12:45 am)
I’ve gotten a fair amount of flak from liberals, on Twitter and in the comments, who claim I’m being unfair to liberal critics of the teachers union—I’m not taking their arguments seriously, making assumptions about their elitism, etc.
I want you all to have a listen to one liberal critic—Andy Rotherham, who has a column at Time— on the Diane Rehm Show. This is what he says (at 50:30):
Part of this strike, it’s pretty clear, is that the union needed to have some theater for its members, let them blow off some steam, and that’s increasingly obvious.
Remember, he’s talking about a union led by an African-American woman, in a school district where 40 percent of the kids are black. Look at ‘em all, blowing off steam.
Yeah, I was really being unfair.
(Also on the show is the indispensable Diane Ravitch, who does a pretty excellent job — when Rehm lets her speak — of debunking the liberal shibboleths in this debate. If you’re wondering why I don’t engage the arguments more, it’s because Ravitch already has. Again and again and again and again.)
I think you misunderstood me. I'm saying that the parents need to step up and do all that for their kids. The teacher are there to educate, they shouldn;t be doing all that other stuff.
After that title, not even going to read that stupid shit.
Where are the majors that actually get you jobs on that list? Engineering, etc.?
I'll summarize for you, disliking a union that provides bad teachers a lifetime job at the cost of good teachers and children doesn't mean you hate teachers.
The author is an idiot pure and simple.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Second, how do you quantify learning? How do you quantify anything without biasing the outcome by asking the questions that some "board" thinks is important? What if they aren't asking the right question(s) on the standardized tests? What if they don't take into account the various contexts from which students emerge? Won't that dramatically effect the outcomes of your evaluation criteria. As such, wouldn't there be a good chance that good teachers get punished and bad get handed raises? Doesn't that just put us right back where we are?
I noticed engineering, finance, marketing, etc. missing. I think that means they are middle of the road. Not too high, not too low. They obviously didn't include every major in the list, just the one's that are easiest to get good grades and the one's that are hardest to get good grades. The others were probably included in the study, but not included in the top 10 and bottom 10.
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and who would want to teach considering the lack of support teachers get. theyre expected to be some sort of super hero lifting all children to a level of knowledge and skill thats just not possible considering.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Bottom line.
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Why not? It's not a massive piece that wears your finger out while pressing the down button.
RW took the time to offer a contribution to a thread that has been somewhat heated. He obviously felt the piece offered something to the discussion. You dismiss his effort that easily- because you know what the piece might be about given the title?
Cincy... I think you have been somewhat of a moderate on this board. You've contributed to this thread in a relatively fair- and productive- manner; however, I think your response was really disrespectful to say the least. I'm kind of surprised to be honest.
I would like to think of threads such as this as opportunities to challenge our ways of thinking. I have advocated for teachers, but I have listened to what others have had to say. I have reflected on my own practice and the state of affairs where I live. I would like to think as a result of doing so, I have become even the slightest bit better. If I closed my mind to the opposing point of view, well, then what I have just said could not be uttered. I would be the same as I was before I entered into this discussion and not the better for it.
:corn:
yeah, fair enough. My anger was at the author, not the poster.
I think blank statements like "If you hate the teachers union, it's because you hate teachers" are one of the biggest problems. It stifles actual discussion. It;s the old, you're either with us or against us mentality that I bet most teachers here were pissed off about when GW said it. If you hate something...
Wasn't trying to beat you down- just pointing it out to you in the event you never considered it. I'd expect you to do the same for me.
You've posed a few questions for me that I never responded to. In particular:
"Someone mentioned that the retention of teachers is an issue. If it was performance based, and you could earn more $ than bad teachers...would that keep them in the system? I think so".
My thoughts are in progress over this one. I'm a little unwilling to respond without formulating a solid idea relevant to it. I meant to get back to you- I haven't ignored this and thank you for it.
I'd be one teacher who would violate this premise, but then again I don't teach grade school or high school. So, yeh - I agree. That's pretty much it in a nutshell.
I kinda wish the teachers on here and protesting would actually think out what those opposed are saying. Basically - look you made the choice to be a teacher. We admire that choice - it's a great and important job. There was a reason you made that choice - hopefully it wasn't a strict monetary/lifestyle decision - instead you really wanted to educate. At this point, we just can't afford to give you more and more money (or benefits) because of the downturn in the national and regional economies and the gov't coffers being pretty much broke. Lots of folks are having hard times right now. Many are losing their jobs. Just like anyone in the private sector is lucky to have a job right now, you are too. Those private sector folks have a tough time looking at friends and family losing jobs, jobs being downsized, etc. when you're out clamoring for higher pay and better benefits. Many think, we're all making sacrifices - and since you're a public employee being paid tax money, public school teachers probably should too. Now please go back to teaching. Thank you for your service.
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No, I;'m worried about the kids and our school system and don;t think it works with the teachers union.
I've thought about teaching a lot. And it's something I may still end up doing in the future. The one thing that holds me back is I don;t want to be in a teacher's union and I dislike school boards and PTOs more than I do manufacturing leadership teams and industrial unions.