one of the local radio stations had a teacher on this AM. she was saying the picketers were getting a lot of thumb downs from passerby's.
Did you happen to see The Lake Forest school teachers this morning?
I guess they are striking to?
It gave me a chuckle.
They were all standing outside of their little school.
All the men were in suits and ties, the ladies in dresses and pant suits.
Calmly holding their little picket signs...
As compared to the red shirt wearing, drum playing, chanting teachers, who are marching in the streets of The Loop.
Hey Hey
Ho Ho
Rahm Emanuel has got to go?
Really?
And I am supposed to take these striking teachers seriously?
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
At the end of the day, the education system is a complete and utter mess. Admittedly, it's not just the teacher's fault. It's the students and parents. It's the system. It's the government.
In many spouts on these issues, I side with the teacher. Because many times personal responsibility isn't accepted from parents and students. Everyone has a job in education and each should accept responsibility. For example, (long ago) if a child got poor grades, parents held most blame to the child, not the teacher. Children probably also accepted responsibility more. Teachers probably felt some more responsibility as well. Now-a-days it's everyone else's fault.
So, what I find ironic, is how the teachers react to this mess. In this thread and elsewhere. In this debate - How THEY react. When discussing "testing" there ability to teach (for example), that can't be done pretty much ever because "of the students". Lines like - "what if the student fails on purpose because they don't like me" are used as rationalizations. When discussing pay, teachers are claiming they don't make enough (although they are making well above the mean wage) and are being asked to work longer days (despite having off for 2 months every summer and working less hours than many other public school systems). Teachers need to accept personal responsibility. Now. Stop with the bullshit. Step up.
The truth is there are problem students. But, that doesn't mean teachers shouldn't be blamed if you're not improving your class' standing. Do you think head coaches make the same excuses? I'd like to see Andy Reid bitch about his shitty players and see how long he'd last.
Our economy is in the doldrums. Private sector is cutting back, and because of our huge debt - public sector is and should too. We're all hurting, yet we're doing the best with what we have. That's what's bothering the common person watching this debate. There's no level-headed aspect to the teacher's side on this issue. It's greed - and it's worse than typical greed. And it's one thing to be greedy when you're in private enterprise - because there, if the money is used incorrectly, the firm goes out of business. That money wasn't public funds. With public money - there's no going out of business - it just results in an increase in our gov't debt, which is one reason we're in the mess we're in. It's our tax money that's being spent. We have a right to say - shut up and go back to work.
This issue is beginning to make me sick to my stomach. The self-centered aspect of what these folks think they "deserve" from tax money is bordering on ridiculous.
The entitlement society has officially bled into public employment. That's a scary, scary thing. But, at the end of the day, the private market which funds those public jobs won't stand for it. It will take a while, but the more these problems erupt, the less likely I see these public sector "entitlements" existing in 25-50 years.
I can only speak for my state - KY. But we are required to have a masters degree before we can get our teaching certificate. That is 30 hours beyond a bachelor's which should put me making the equivalent of other professions that have the same amount of education (lawyers and pharmacists for instance). I am also currently working on a second masters degree (typically called a Rank I) which many teachers also choose to get. I have to agree with thirtybillsunpaid that we can decrease the salary for teachers by decreasing the amount of education and responsbility required but we'll end up with babysitters not educators. I am all for accountability and I disagree with my union on a great deal but there has to be some level of compromise on both sides or we're never going to change the system.
In PA many teachers also have Master's degrees. Yet, many, if not the heavy majority, don't pay for these out of their pocket - the school assists. Did you pay for yours?
What is a majority? Can you give me a percentage and can you explain WHY they didn't pay for their education?
My Masters degree was initially paid for through students loans. After I received my masters and my teaching certificate and got my first job teaching I spent 6 years teaching in a high poverty area which has consistenly scored in the bottom in testing for a very long time. There was (and I assume this program is still in place) a federal program that paid for 40% of my degree after meeting stringent guidelines about when I incurred my loans, meeting teaching guidelines and standards, and being in a high poverty school for a minimum of 5 years. Sounds like your state has a generous plan to help educate teachers. So, did I pay for all of my masters, no. But I did pay for a majority of it and I paid for my bachelors degree out of my own pocket.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
one of the local radio stations had a teacher on this AM. she was saying the picketers were getting a lot of thumb downs from passerby's.
My wife works in a salon and worked with a CPS teacher yesterday. She said she was completely embarrassed to be wearing the red shirt she was forced to buy.....
I can only speak for my state - KY. But we are required to have a masters degree before we can get our teaching certificate. That is 30 hours beyond a bachelor's which should put me making the equivalent of other professions that have the same amount of education (lawyers and pharmacists for instance). I am also currently working on a second masters degree (typically called a Rank I) which many teachers also choose to get. I have to agree with thirtybillsunpaid that we can decrease the salary for teachers by decreasing the amount of education and responsbility required but we'll end up with babysitters not educators. I am all for accountability and I disagree with my union on a great deal but there has to be some level of compromise on both sides or we're never going to change the system.
In PA many teachers also have Master's degrees. Yet, many, if not the heavy majority, don't pay for these out of their pocket - the school assists. Did you pay for yours?
What is a majority? Can you give me a percentage and can you explain WHY they didn't pay for their education?
My Masters degree was initially paid for through students loans. After I received my masters and my teaching certificate and got my first job teaching I spent 6 years teaching in a high poverty area which has consistenly scored in the bottom in testing for a very long time. There was (and I assume this program is still in place) a federal program that paid for 40% of my degree after meeting stringent guidelines about when I incurred my loans, meeting teaching guidelines and standards, and being in a high poverty school for a minimum of 5 years. Sounds like your state has a generous plan to help educate teachers. So, did I pay for all of my masters, no. But I did pay for a majority of it and I paid for my bachelors degree out of my own pocket.
In PA, the school system that they went to work for paid for their master's degree if it was required.
It's simply lying for people to pretend in this thread that they have to pay $300K in educational expenses to secure a teaching position. Sure, one needs to go to college. That's the case for most jobs - particularly jobs in education. Beyond that, some school districts may require Masters, others may not. If they do, there's typically programs to help with educational costs. This just gets into costs - not difficulty of the major, which is another story entirely.
It's simply lying for people to pretend in this thread that they have to pay $300K in educational expenses to secure a teaching position. Sure, one needs to go to college. That's the case for most jobs - particularly jobs in education. Beyond that, some school districts may require Masters, others may not. If they do, there's typically programs to help with educational costs. This just gets into costs - not difficulty of the major, which is another story entirely.
he's including a really nice school PLUS the lost cost of working during those 4 years.
we should discuss the cost of a college education....talk about something that has got out of hand over the last 30+ years.
It's simply lying for people to pretend in this thread that they have to pay $300K in educational expenses to secure a teaching position. Sure, one needs to go to college. That's the case for most jobs - particularly jobs in education. Beyond that, some school districts may require Masters, others may not. If they do, there's typically programs to help with educational costs. This just gets into costs - not difficulty of the major, which is another story entirely.
he's including a really nice school PLUS the lost cost of working during those 4 years.
we should discuss the cost of a college education....talk about something that has got out of hand over the last 30+ years.
If you can do me a favor - please communicate this to him: Waah.
He should try getting a PhD. I suppose that means I was out $1 million when I spent 6 years getting my PhD? ...Then ironically settling for a college teaching position that pays LESS than the average CPS teacher's salary. That's why this issue doesn't make sense. These CPS teachers need to educate themselves on this thing called reality.
The $32M in union dues is what they choose to do with their negotiated salary. They might be paying too much, but that is their business. If they weren't paying it... it wouldn't be going to textbooks... it would be going in their pockets and rightfully so.
We can't discuss this issue in a slightly bigger context? You could look at a lot of things under a microscope and notice the imperfections.
You keep going on about the $32 million and other items... how about you answer a few of the questions that have been asked of you: Do you support a 'watered-down' education system that demands much less in terms of accreditation for teachers and, as such, delivers much less in terms of money and benefits in return?
and you are telling me that $32M isn't considered when the union comes up with salary demands? you know damn well they are planning for their pocket padding
as for watered down education system...i never said that....nor do i want that. i do want admin's cut and unions deleted from chicago schools.
i'm still waiting for someone to tell me what that $32M buys me. obviously, not a t shirt.
I've already told you. You're not hearing the answer. It is their money to spend any way they want. A salary was negotiated. From that negotiated salary they pay their union dues. They could spend it on anything they want... but they choose (or are forced) to spend a small chunk of their salaries on union dues.
If you cannot think of what the union dues are for (I had assumed that it was common sense)... let me enlighten you: union reps salaries; clerical staff; office space; supplies; phone bills; power bills; strike wages; computers; likes Nickleback signs (lol); etc.
Hey... they might be paying too much... it might be a crappy thing... it might even be a corrupt thing (which I highly doubt by the way)... but it shouldn't be your concern... unless:
your point is that teachers are paying too much in union dues if you consider the sum they have accumulated and if they didn't pay so much... they'd have more to put in their pockets and be more satisfied... you might have something. It might be a teacher's concern: "Hey. How do we have $32 M in union dues? I think we pay too much!" But I have never got this sense from you. You keep slamming your fist down on your desk and talking about how many textbooks, air-conditioning units, and extra teachers they could buy with that money.
On that note, some have poked fun at their request for air-conditioning units. Why is that ridiculous? You fill up a room with 25 kids and sit in it for an hour in June... that's not exactly pleasant. If learning is actually an objective, I don't think having kids sweating their nut sacks off in a muggy room is condusive for yielding that. Some have rolled their eyes and suggested this is yet another comfort request all about the teacher- whining as usual- but don't you think your kids are worth an air-conditioned room when at school? Granted the teacher benefits as well... but I am actually shocked that AC isn't in place.
Is Chicago full of public buildings without AC? Or did the buck stop right before the public schools? If it did... I think that alone reflects the attitude the city holds for its school institution and the population it serves. 'Kids don't need AC. Just get in there and be happy you have a there'. Not nice.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.
if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.
i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.
you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.
It's simply lying for people to pretend in this thread that they have to pay $300K in educational expenses to secure a teaching position. Sure, one needs to go to college. That's the case for most jobs - particularly jobs in education. Beyond that, some school districts may require Masters, others may not. If they do, there's typically programs to help with educational costs. This just gets into costs - not difficulty of the major, which is another story entirely.
he's including a really nice school PLUS the lost cost of working during those 4 years.
we should discuss the cost of a college education....talk about something that has got out of hand over the last 30+ years.
If you can do me a favor - please communicate this to him: Waah.
He should try getting a PhD. I suppose that means I was out $1 million when I spent 6 years getting my PhD? ...Then ironically settling for a college teaching position that pays LESS than the average CPS teacher's salary. That's why this issue doesn't make sense. These CPS teachers need to educate themselves on this thing called reality.
I'm not from the CPS. What I pointed out was reality. Is the money spent on university tuitions and lost from the opportunity to be employed during that time spent at school too difficult for you to comprehend? I wasn't complaining about it either. I pointed out that if that is the expectation... then people should be compensated for this.
In BC, over 80% of our teaching force are women now. Men can make more money right out of the gates doing a number of good jobs that require no education and offer great benefits. The profession is no longer appealing to some who need a bit more motivation to commit themselves to pursuing a career in the field. This might be good, but I think it is bad. I'm not suggesting anything about women teachers, but I can say that strong male influences in the school system are a positive thing.
If you have a PhD... and I'm doubting this somewhat- or at a minimum wondering what it is- given your 'waah' comment, I would think you are making a generous wage and have a good lifestyle. Society needs educated people to lead us into the future. While I want blue collar workers to earn a very good living, I want- we need- people to do some of the things that require time at school. For their sacrifice... I want to reward them. So thank you for your sacrifice and I hope that PhD is helping us.
By the way... I paid for my 2 undergraduate degrees and my masters degree by myself. No assistance from anyone.
we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.
if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.
i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.
you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.
So you want to roll back their wages and bust the union?
In BC, over 80% of our teaching force are women now. Men can make more money right out of the gates doing a number of good jobs that require no education and offer great benefits.
This is off topic, but why can't women get these same jobs?
we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.
if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.
i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.
you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.
So you want to roll back their wages and bust the union?
Hahaha, that seems like not a very effective way. I say, let the teachers keep that $ if they ditch the union!!!
hippiemom = goodness
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81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.
if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.
i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.
you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.
So you want to roll back their wages and bust the union?
i would have zero problemm with that....or as the guy after you said, let the teachers keep the cash and ditch the union.
but sure, roll back the salaries...and put those $32M of tax payers dollars to work on something productive....not a corrupt union
In BC, over 80% of our teaching force are women now. Men can make more money right out of the gates doing a number of good jobs that require no education and offer great benefits.
This is off topic, but why can't women get these same jobs?
The jobs I was speaking of are in mines and mills- labourious jobs that are physically demanding. Some women do work these jobs and are good at their jobs, but the majority of people seeking such employment are men (for whatever reason).
I'm not from the CPS. What I pointed out was reality. Is the money spent on university tuitions and lost from the opportunity to be employed during that time spent at school too difficult for you to comprehend? I wasn't complaining about it either. I pointed out that if that is the expectation... then people should be compensated for this.
I'm an economist and I teach opportunity cost. The concept is not too difficult for me to understand since I teach it every day. But, I'd say you'd don't quite comprehend the concept yourself. Please break down the situation in which an average teacher is losing "$300K" - exactly. I'm curious of your logic. Remember - opportunity cost means the best alternative forgone.
And if you find a way to do such are PhDs losing $1million or more according to your logic?
In BC, over 80% of our teaching force are women now. Men can make more money right out of the gates doing a number of good jobs that require no education and offer great benefits. The profession is no longer appealing to some who need a bit more motivation to commit themselves to pursuing a career in the field. This might be good, but I think it is bad. I'm not suggesting anything about women teachers, but I can say that strong male influences in the school system are a positive thing.
I don't care about BC - nor are we discussing it. So, I'm not sure how that is relevant whatsoever. But, even if it was relevant I highly doubt that men "with no education" can make more money right out of the gates than educators unless they are risking their lives. Since we like opportunity costs, how would that effect those jobs?
If you have a PhD... and I'm doubting this somewhat- or at a minimum wondering what it is- given your 'waah' comment, I would think you are making a generous wage and have a good lifestyle. Society needs educated people to lead us into the future. While I want blue collar workers to earn a very good living, I want- we need- people to do some of the things that require time at school. For their sacrifice... I want to reward them. So thank you for your sacrifice and I hope that PhD is helping us.
Thanks for the patronizing attitude towards my education level.
I have a PhD in economics. Just as an aside, this is considered one of the hardest subjects to study. Education is considered one of the easiest subjects to study. Just something to keep in mind.
Anyway, I do make decent money and I have a nice lifestyle. I'm not complaining. The "waah" comment was directed towards those "who are complaining" - CPS teachers in this case, or people defending them saying they had high education costs - like yourself.
By the way... I paid for my 2 undergraduate degrees and my masters degree by myself. No assistance from anyone.
Why anyone would get two undergrad degrees is beyond me. How exactly is that 2nd undergrad degree relevant whatsoever to opportunity cost? Seems to me, one could make the argument that was just a very poor economic decision.
But whatever - that's fantastic if you enjoyed doing paying for two degrees that pretty much do the same thing. I'd simply say - scholarships aren't a bad thing though.
Anywho - back to the subject.
Teachers are bitching about their wage/work conditions when they are making well above the mean salary, have off for two months each summer and work less hours than the average job. Claims like 'they paid $300K in opportunity cost' to try to rationalize their relatively high wages are silly.
we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.
if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.
i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.
you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.
So you want to roll back their wages and bust the union?
i would have zero problemm with that....or as the guy after you said, let the teachers keep the cash and ditch the union.
but sure, roll back the salaries...and put those $32M of tax payers dollars to work on something productive....not a corrupt union
Friendly.
So, even though you said "No" to the 'watered down education system' that demands much less in terms of certification and compensates much less in terms of wages and benefits... you actually meant "Yes"?
81... you're a reasonable guy. I leave you to your attitude on this one and bear no judgement towards you. I would caution you to be careful for what you ask though. Recruting and retaining teachers is getting more difficult these days. This is a reality. If these aren't enough of a warning sign that the future of education might be in trouble... do we actually have to flounder before we make changes- or at least maintain- the institution a bit?
Most of these 'teachers' you have so much disdain for are great people. They are not the greedy, selfish, assholes some have painted them out to be. They want to do a good job and want a little respect for doing it. I've acknowledged problems with the union and I have acknowledged problems with holding performances accountable. You haven't even acknowledged in the slightest that a good teacher might be worth something.
"My brain's a good brain!"
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81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
where is my disdain for the teacher? i have no problem with the teacher as a profession or a person...i have a problem with the union wasting money and i have a problem with a group of people looking for more money out of system that is mired in debt.
Let's not forget that the parents have a role in their children's education as well. Teachers have consistently had their responsibilities increased; they are now not only educators in a particular subject, but are now babysitters, disciplinarians, role models.
Having friends and family who are public school teachers, their first complaint about the job after the simple fact that the system needs serious reform is dealing with absentee and delusional parents.
These problems go beyond our education system; it is a cultural problem that begins in the home.
Tell your damn kids to turn off the idiot box/boob tube, get some exercise, and do their damn homework.
p.s. I just saw my best friend this past weekend. He teaches at a middle school in NC. This year, he has a class with 36 students. 36 students!!! Among those 36 students are kids with special needs. What kind of learning environment is this? Also, due to budget cuts, he has gone years without a cost of living raise, and still makes less than $45,000 dollars a year. How much does Snooki make? How much does an actor/actress who plays the role of a teacher in a film make? How much does Rush Limbaugh make?
these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...
While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.
Still got a couple more pages left to read, but yes, I agree with this.
Of course our influences come from all around, but in the end, teachers are educators; it's not their place to guide or shape morality.
If anything, HOW they teach is a good window into character, fairness, discipline - but that should be a by-product of the actual lesson.
these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...
While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.
Still got a couple more pages left to read, but yes, I agree with this.
Of course our influences come from all around, but in the end, teachers are educators; it's not their place to guide or shape morality.
If anything, HOW they teach is a good window into character, fairness, discipline - but that should be a by-product of the actual lesson.
Let's not forget that the parents have a role in their children's education as well. Teachers have consistently had their responsibilities increased; they are now not only educators in a particular subject, but are now babysitters, disciplinarians, role models.
Having friends and family who are public school teachers, their first complaint about the job after the simple fact that the system needs serious reform is dealing with absentee and delusional parents.
These problems go beyond our education system; it is a cultural problem that begins in the home.
Tell your damn kids to turn off the idiot box/boob tube, get some exercise, and do their damn homework.
p.s. I just saw my best friend this past weekend. He teaches at a middle school in NC. This year, he has a class with 36 students. 36 students!!! Among those 36 students are kids with special needs. What kind of learning environment is this? Also, due to budget cuts, he has gone years without a cost of living raise, and still makes less than $45,000 dollars a year. How much does Snooki make? How much does an actor/actress who plays the role of a teacher in a film make? How much does Rush Limbaugh make?
God bless America
I grew up in schools with classes of 40 students. Not saying that was good - but, I'm not sure it's that odd. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's harder for the teacher, and I don't deny it would be better to have small class sizes, but we're in a recession and most gov't are cash strapped - as are the US citizens. It's nice to have jobs at all.
The only way to get class sizes smaller is more teachers, but the money's not there. If there's a set pot of money for salary, etc... then decreasing class size would involve increased hiring - increased costs... but, since teachers wont budge on lower salary (costs)... it just won't work - the math doesn't work. These facts are important. So, what do they want consistent salaries or more teachers?
Couple other things to note - $45K is higher than the average salary in the US. Also, reality stars, actresses or talk show hosts don't get paid with tax money.
As a parent of a child in CPS system I must say its starting to boil over in our community. Parents are getting fed up and its only day 3. Karen Lewis has had her 15 minutes of fame and its time to get to serious business, not parade through the streets of Chicago and cause massive disruptions.
If this goes on for weeks I better see some serious fucking results in the classroom......
As a parent of a child in CPS system I must say its starting to boil over in our community. Parents are getting fed up and its only day 3. Karen Lewis has had her 15 minutes of fame and its time to get to serious business, not parade through the streets of Chicago and cause massive disruptions.
If this goes on for weeks I better see some serious fucking results in the classroom......
Oh no, you can;t judge a teachers effectiveness I've been told....
hippiemom = goodness
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81
Needing a ride to Forest Hills and a ounce of weed. Please inquire within. Thanks. Or not. Posts: 58,276
As a parent of a child in CPS system I must say its starting to boil over in our community. Parents are getting fed up and its only day 3. Karen Lewis has had her 15 minutes of fame and its time to get to serious business, not parade through the streets of Chicago and cause massive disruptions.
If this goes on for weeks I better see some serious fucking results in the classroom......
Ole Karen knows EXACTLY when the cameras are on, doesnt she. I picture her envisioning a reality show, and maybe a talk show. For some reason I believe she pictures herself as the next Oprah.
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Let's not forget that the parents have a role in their children's education as well. Teachers have consistently had their responsibilities increased; they are now not only educators in a particular subject, but are now babysitters, disciplinarians, role models.
Having friends and family who are public school teachers, their first complaint about the job after the simple fact that the system needs serious reform is dealing with absentee and delusional parents.
These problems go beyond our education system; it is a cultural problem that begins in the home.
Tell your damn kids to turn off the idiot box/boob tube, get some exercise, and do their damn homework.
p.s. I just saw my best friend this past weekend. He teaches at a middle school in NC. This year, he has a class with 36 students. 36 students!!! Among those 36 students are kids with special needs. What kind of learning environment is this? Also, due to budget cuts, he has gone years without a cost of living raise, and still makes less than $45,000 dollars a year. How much does Snooki make? How much does an actor/actress who plays the role of a teacher in a film make? How much does Rush Limbaugh make?
God bless America
I grew up in schools with classes of 40 students. Not saying that was good - but, I'm not sure it's that odd. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's harder for the teacher, and I don't deny it would be better to have small class sizes, but we're in a recession and most gov't are cash strapped - as are the US citizens. It's nice to have jobs at all.
The only way to get class sizes smaller is more teachers, but the money's not there. If there's a set pot of money for salary, etc... then decreasing class size would involve increased hiring - increased costs... but, since teachers wont budge on lower salary (costs)... it just won't work - the math doesn't work. These facts are important. So, what do they want consistent salaries or more teachers?
Couple other things to note - $45K is higher than the average salary in the US. Also, reality stars, actresses or talk show hosts don't get paid with tax money.
It has nothing to do with being odd; it is simply not conducive to a good education.
I realize the costs with opening new schools, lowering class sizes, etc. My point is that we need to get our priorities straight. We waste a lot of money in this country, no? We give oil companies billions of dollars in subsidies.
The average salary in the U.S. is roughly $47,000. So, you are correct ($2,000 is not that off).
And yes, I realize that reality TV starts do not get paid by tax dollars. Everyone knows that. Again, it comes down to priorities and an imbalanced system. I feel that those who play a very important role in shaping our society--teachers, policeman, firefighters, nurses, EMTs, etc--should be taken care off.
What is the incentive these days to enter these professions? How many Ivy Leaguers enter these professions? Why not go to Wall St. or the banking/financial arenas?
In order to teach elementary school i needed to have a bachelor degree in a specialty area and a 2 year bachelor of education degree (hence the six years i spoke of).
I seriously have no more enthusiasm for this thread. If you read most of my posts, i agreed with strike opponents that there was much to be disappointed about regarding the situation. From afar, and not as removed from the situation as you have suggested, i felt the need to speak on behalf of a group of people that seemed to be taking quite a few unnecessary shots.
I realize the costs with opening new schools, lowering class sizes, etc. My point is that we need to get our priorities straight. We waste a lot of money in this country, no? We give oil companies billions of dollars in subsidies.
I don't think anyone's arguing that our government has it's priorities straight. But, I think I'd say - the schools don't either. Moreover, the teachers, or at least the unions, don't. They make good money. It's never enough.
We don't all agree on where our money should be directed and what should be cut. Most of us, however, are saying that (given our debt and economic problems) "expansions" in any public area of spending shouldn't occur right now.
The average salary in the U.S. is roughly $47,000. So, you are correct ($2,000 is not that off).
North Carolina's average is almost certainly lower than the national average, I would assume. Your buddy is doing arguably better than average for his state. Plus, he doesn't work for two months each summer and has nice retirement plan. He could bartend over the summer and make $60K easy. Maybe he does.
And yes, I realize that reality TV starts do not get paid by tax dollars. Everyone knows that. Again, it comes down to priorities and an imbalanced system. I feel that those who play a very important role in shaping our society--teachers, policeman, firefighters, nurses, EMTs, etc--should be taken care off.
TV stars make the money they make because people want them to. There's a demand for that smut. Why? Who knows.
As for the public employees, I think the common response is - they are taken care of. In fact, the arguably are better taken care of than the average private sector employee when taking into account salary, benefits, lifestyle and pension/retirement.
What is the incentive these days to enter these professions? How many Ivy Leaguers enter these professions? Why not go to Wall St. or the banking/financial arenas?
The incentive is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and a nice lifestyle doing something one believes that matters.
Wall Streeters, meanwhile may also earn a higher than average salary but they don't get months off at a time. Their career is somewhat shaky right now with the market volatility and their lifestyle (at least from the friends that I've seen go that route) sucks. 15 hour days all year round is not fun. I would want no part in going into working on wall street, personally.
In order to teach elementary school i needed to have a bachelor degree in a specialty area and a 2 year bachelor of education degree (hence the six years i spoke of).
I seriously have no more enthusiasm for this thread. If you read most of my posts, i agreed with strike opponents that there was much to be disappointed about regarding the situation. From afar, and not as removed from the situation as you have suggested, i felt the need to speak on behalf of a group of people that seemed to be taking quite a few unnecessary shots.
Sorry if you feel it wasn't my place to do so.
You're entitled to speak on whatever you want. I have the right to respond. At the end of the day, Chicago isn't BC.
Comments
I guess they are striking to?
It gave me a chuckle.
They were all standing outside of their little school.
All the men were in suits and ties, the ladies in dresses and pant suits.
Calmly holding their little picket signs...
As compared to the red shirt wearing, drum playing, chanting teachers, who are marching in the streets of The Loop.
Hey Hey
Ho Ho
Rahm Emanuel has got to go?
Really?
And I am supposed to take these striking teachers seriously?
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
In many spouts on these issues, I side with the teacher. Because many times personal responsibility isn't accepted from parents and students. Everyone has a job in education and each should accept responsibility. For example, (long ago) if a child got poor grades, parents held most blame to the child, not the teacher. Children probably also accepted responsibility more. Teachers probably felt some more responsibility as well. Now-a-days it's everyone else's fault.
So, what I find ironic, is how the teachers react to this mess. In this thread and elsewhere. In this debate - How THEY react. When discussing "testing" there ability to teach (for example), that can't be done pretty much ever because "of the students". Lines like - "what if the student fails on purpose because they don't like me" are used as rationalizations. When discussing pay, teachers are claiming they don't make enough (although they are making well above the mean wage) and are being asked to work longer days (despite having off for 2 months every summer and working less hours than many other public school systems). Teachers need to accept personal responsibility. Now. Stop with the bullshit. Step up.
The truth is there are problem students. But, that doesn't mean teachers shouldn't be blamed if you're not improving your class' standing. Do you think head coaches make the same excuses? I'd like to see Andy Reid bitch about his shitty players and see how long he'd last.
Our economy is in the doldrums. Private sector is cutting back, and because of our huge debt - public sector is and should too. We're all hurting, yet we're doing the best with what we have. That's what's bothering the common person watching this debate. There's no level-headed aspect to the teacher's side on this issue. It's greed - and it's worse than typical greed. And it's one thing to be greedy when you're in private enterprise - because there, if the money is used incorrectly, the firm goes out of business. That money wasn't public funds. With public money - there's no going out of business - it just results in an increase in our gov't debt, which is one reason we're in the mess we're in. It's our tax money that's being spent. We have a right to say - shut up and go back to work.
This issue is beginning to make me sick to my stomach. The self-centered aspect of what these folks think they "deserve" from tax money is bordering on ridiculous.
The entitlement society has officially bled into public employment. That's a scary, scary thing. But, at the end of the day, the private market which funds those public jobs won't stand for it. It will take a while, but the more these problems erupt, the less likely I see these public sector "entitlements" existing in 25-50 years.
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What is a majority? Can you give me a percentage and can you explain WHY they didn't pay for their education?
My Masters degree was initially paid for through students loans. After I received my masters and my teaching certificate and got my first job teaching I spent 6 years teaching in a high poverty area which has consistenly scored in the bottom in testing for a very long time. There was (and I assume this program is still in place) a federal program that paid for 40% of my degree after meeting stringent guidelines about when I incurred my loans, meeting teaching guidelines and standards, and being in a high poverty school for a minimum of 5 years. Sounds like your state has a generous plan to help educate teachers. So, did I pay for all of my masters, no. But I did pay for a majority of it and I paid for my bachelors degree out of my own pocket.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE
My wife works in a salon and worked with a CPS teacher yesterday. She said she was completely embarrassed to be wearing the red shirt she was forced to buy.....
In PA, the school system that they went to work for paid for their master's degree if it was required.
It's simply lying for people to pretend in this thread that they have to pay $300K in educational expenses to secure a teaching position. Sure, one needs to go to college. That's the case for most jobs - particularly jobs in education. Beyond that, some school districts may require Masters, others may not. If they do, there's typically programs to help with educational costs. This just gets into costs - not difficulty of the major, which is another story entirely.
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he's including a really nice school PLUS the lost cost of working during those 4 years.
we should discuss the cost of a college education....talk about something that has got out of hand over the last 30+ years.
If you can do me a favor - please communicate this to him: Waah.
He should try getting a PhD. I suppose that means I was out $1 million when I spent 6 years getting my PhD? ...Then ironically settling for a college teaching position that pays LESS than the average CPS teacher's salary. That's why this issue doesn't make sense. These CPS teachers need to educate themselves on this thing called reality.
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I've already told you. You're not hearing the answer. It is their money to spend any way they want. A salary was negotiated. From that negotiated salary they pay their union dues. They could spend it on anything they want... but they choose (or are forced) to spend a small chunk of their salaries on union dues.
If you cannot think of what the union dues are for (I had assumed that it was common sense)... let me enlighten you: union reps salaries; clerical staff; office space; supplies; phone bills; power bills; strike wages; computers; likes Nickleback signs (lol); etc.
Hey... they might be paying too much... it might be a crappy thing... it might even be a corrupt thing (which I highly doubt by the way)... but it shouldn't be your concern... unless:
your point is that teachers are paying too much in union dues if you consider the sum they have accumulated and if they didn't pay so much... they'd have more to put in their pockets and be more satisfied... you might have something. It might be a teacher's concern: "Hey. How do we have $32 M in union dues? I think we pay too much!" But I have never got this sense from you. You keep slamming your fist down on your desk and talking about how many textbooks, air-conditioning units, and extra teachers they could buy with that money.
On that note, some have poked fun at their request for air-conditioning units. Why is that ridiculous? You fill up a room with 25 kids and sit in it for an hour in June... that's not exactly pleasant. If learning is actually an objective, I don't think having kids sweating their nut sacks off in a muggy room is condusive for yielding that. Some have rolled their eyes and suggested this is yet another comfort request all about the teacher- whining as usual- but don't you think your kids are worth an air-conditioned room when at school? Granted the teacher benefits as well... but I am actually shocked that AC isn't in place.
Is Chicago full of public buildings without AC? Or did the buck stop right before the public schools? If it did... I think that alone reflects the attitude the city holds for its school institution and the population it serves. 'Kids don't need AC. Just get in there and be happy you have a there'. Not nice.
if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.
i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.
you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.
I'm not from the CPS. What I pointed out was reality. Is the money spent on university tuitions and lost from the opportunity to be employed during that time spent at school too difficult for you to comprehend? I wasn't complaining about it either. I pointed out that if that is the expectation... then people should be compensated for this.
In BC, over 80% of our teaching force are women now. Men can make more money right out of the gates doing a number of good jobs that require no education and offer great benefits. The profession is no longer appealing to some who need a bit more motivation to commit themselves to pursuing a career in the field. This might be good, but I think it is bad. I'm not suggesting anything about women teachers, but I can say that strong male influences in the school system are a positive thing.
If you have a PhD... and I'm doubting this somewhat- or at a minimum wondering what it is- given your 'waah' comment, I would think you are making a generous wage and have a good lifestyle. Society needs educated people to lead us into the future. While I want blue collar workers to earn a very good living, I want- we need- people to do some of the things that require time at school. For their sacrifice... I want to reward them. So thank you for your sacrifice and I hope that PhD is helping us.
By the way... I paid for my 2 undergraduate degrees and my masters degree by myself. No assistance from anyone.
So you want to roll back their wages and bust the union?
This is off topic, but why can't women get these same jobs?
Hahaha, that seems like not a very effective way. I say, let the teachers keep that $ if they ditch the union!!!
i would have zero problemm with that....or as the guy after you said, let the teachers keep the cash and ditch the union.
but sure, roll back the salaries...and put those $32M of tax payers dollars to work on something productive....not a corrupt union
The jobs I was speaking of are in mines and mills- labourious jobs that are physically demanding. Some women do work these jobs and are good at their jobs, but the majority of people seeking such employment are men (for whatever reason).
I'm an economist and I teach opportunity cost. The concept is not too difficult for me to understand since I teach it every day. But, I'd say you'd don't quite comprehend the concept yourself. Please break down the situation in which an average teacher is losing "$300K" - exactly. I'm curious of your logic. Remember - opportunity cost means the best alternative forgone.
And if you find a way to do such are PhDs losing $1million or more according to your logic?
I don't care about BC - nor are we discussing it. So, I'm not sure how that is relevant whatsoever. But, even if it was relevant I highly doubt that men "with no education" can make more money right out of the gates than educators unless they are risking their lives. Since we like opportunity costs, how would that effect those jobs?
Thanks for the patronizing attitude towards my education level.
I have a PhD in economics. Just as an aside, this is considered one of the hardest subjects to study. Education is considered one of the easiest subjects to study. Just something to keep in mind.
Anyway, I do make decent money and I have a nice lifestyle. I'm not complaining. The "waah" comment was directed towards those "who are complaining" - CPS teachers in this case, or people defending them saying they had high education costs - like yourself.
Why anyone would get two undergrad degrees is beyond me. How exactly is that 2nd undergrad degree relevant whatsoever to opportunity cost? Seems to me, one could make the argument that was just a very poor economic decision.
But whatever - that's fantastic if you enjoyed doing paying for two degrees that pretty much do the same thing. I'd simply say - scholarships aren't a bad thing though.
Anywho - back to the subject.
Teachers are bitching about their wage/work conditions when they are making well above the mean salary, have off for two months each summer and work less hours than the average job. Claims like 'they paid $300K in opportunity cost' to try to rationalize their relatively high wages are silly.
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Friendly.
So, even though you said "No" to the 'watered down education system' that demands much less in terms of certification and compensates much less in terms of wages and benefits... you actually meant "Yes"?
81... you're a reasonable guy. I leave you to your attitude on this one and bear no judgement towards you. I would caution you to be careful for what you ask though. Recruting and retaining teachers is getting more difficult these days. This is a reality. If these aren't enough of a warning sign that the future of education might be in trouble... do we actually have to flounder before we make changes- or at least maintain- the institution a bit?
Most of these 'teachers' you have so much disdain for are great people. They are not the greedy, selfish, assholes some have painted them out to be. They want to do a good job and want a little respect for doing it. I've acknowledged problems with the union and I have acknowledged problems with holding performances accountable. You haven't even acknowledged in the slightest that a good teacher might be worth something.
Having friends and family who are public school teachers, their first complaint about the job after the simple fact that the system needs serious reform is dealing with absentee and delusional parents.
These problems go beyond our education system; it is a cultural problem that begins in the home.
Tell your damn kids to turn off the idiot box/boob tube, get some exercise, and do their damn homework.
p.s. I just saw my best friend this past weekend. He teaches at a middle school in NC. This year, he has a class with 36 students. 36 students!!! Among those 36 students are kids with special needs. What kind of learning environment is this? Also, due to budget cuts, he has gone years without a cost of living raise, and still makes less than $45,000 dollars a year. How much does Snooki make? How much does an actor/actress who plays the role of a teacher in a film make? How much does Rush Limbaugh make?
God bless America
Of course our influences come from all around, but in the end, teachers are educators; it's not their place to guide or shape morality.
If anything, HOW they teach is a good window into character, fairness, discipline - but that should be a by-product of the actual lesson.
I grew up in schools with classes of 40 students. Not saying that was good - but, I'm not sure it's that odd. Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it's harder for the teacher, and I don't deny it would be better to have small class sizes, but we're in a recession and most gov't are cash strapped - as are the US citizens. It's nice to have jobs at all.
The only way to get class sizes smaller is more teachers, but the money's not there. If there's a set pot of money for salary, etc... then decreasing class size would involve increased hiring - increased costs... but, since teachers wont budge on lower salary (costs)... it just won't work - the math doesn't work. These facts are important. So, what do they want consistent salaries or more teachers?
Couple other things to note - $45K is higher than the average salary in the US. Also, reality stars, actresses or talk show hosts don't get paid with tax money.
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If this goes on for weeks I better see some serious fucking results in the classroom......
Oh no, you can;t judge a teachers effectiveness I've been told....
that's what the teachers like to tell you.
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
It has nothing to do with being odd; it is simply not conducive to a good education.
I realize the costs with opening new schools, lowering class sizes, etc. My point is that we need to get our priorities straight. We waste a lot of money in this country, no? We give oil companies billions of dollars in subsidies.
The average salary in the U.S. is roughly $47,000. So, you are correct ($2,000 is not that off).
And yes, I realize that reality TV starts do not get paid by tax dollars. Everyone knows that. Again, it comes down to priorities and an imbalanced system. I feel that those who play a very important role in shaping our society--teachers, policeman, firefighters, nurses, EMTs, etc--should be taken care off.
What is the incentive these days to enter these professions? How many Ivy Leaguers enter these professions? Why not go to Wall St. or the banking/financial arenas?
In order to teach elementary school i needed to have a bachelor degree in a specialty area and a 2 year bachelor of education degree (hence the six years i spoke of).
I seriously have no more enthusiasm for this thread. If you read most of my posts, i agreed with strike opponents that there was much to be disappointed about regarding the situation. From afar, and not as removed from the situation as you have suggested, i felt the need to speak on behalf of a group of people that seemed to be taking quite a few unnecessary shots.
Sorry if you feel it wasn't my place to do so.
I think it's fine, personally. Would we prefer smaller classes? Sure. But, can we afford it? No.
I don't think anyone's arguing that our government has it's priorities straight. But, I think I'd say - the schools don't either. Moreover, the teachers, or at least the unions, don't. They make good money. It's never enough.
We don't all agree on where our money should be directed and what should be cut. Most of us, however, are saying that (given our debt and economic problems) "expansions" in any public area of spending shouldn't occur right now.
North Carolina's average is almost certainly lower than the national average, I would assume. Your buddy is doing arguably better than average for his state. Plus, he doesn't work for two months each summer and has nice retirement plan. He could bartend over the summer and make $60K easy. Maybe he does.
TV stars make the money they make because people want them to. There's a demand for that smut. Why? Who knows.
As for the public employees, I think the common response is - they are taken care of. In fact, the arguably are better taken care of than the average private sector employee when taking into account salary, benefits, lifestyle and pension/retirement.
The incentive is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and a nice lifestyle doing something one believes that matters.
Wall Streeters, meanwhile may also earn a higher than average salary but they don't get months off at a time. Their career is somewhat shaky right now with the market volatility and their lifestyle (at least from the friends that I've seen go that route) sucks. 15 hour days all year round is not fun. I would want no part in going into working on wall street, personally.
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That's odd.
You're entitled to speak on whatever you want. I have the right to respond. At the end of the day, Chicago isn't BC.
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