Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike...

riotgrl

bootlegger10 wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

This way, to become a teacher... you wouldn't have to: forgo 5-6 years of working and earning a wage; spend obscene amounts of cash at a university to receive your accreditation; and enter a job that typically pays $40-45,000 in its first year. It's tough to be down approximately $300,000 out of the gates (years sacrificed at school not being able to work combined with debts accumulated at university) and earn $40,000 for your efforts. The wage of $70,000 has been tossed around- without having looked at the CPS pay grid... I can confidently tell you that is the wage a teacher makes after (typically) 7-8 years of service.

I'm confused. When did it take 5-6 years to get a teaching license to teach high school math or elementary school? Also, $300,000 in school debt? That is $75,000 for four years, or $50,000 for 6 years. I went to a nice private university and paid $25,000 a year for a business degree. A public university would cost considerably less. I had several friends go into teaching and immediate family members too, and none went to school for more than 4 years. I can understand taking grad classes for college level teaching. It is ridiculous to think you need to pay $300,000 to be qualified to teach high school algebra.

I don't know the current requirements, but pharmacists have 6 year degrees. I don't think getting a teaching degree should take as many classes as a pharmacy degree.

According to CNN Money the average starting salary for 2011 was $41,701. So a starting teacher salary of $40,000 isn't any different than the average college graduate.

http://money.cnn.com/2012/01/12/pf/coll ... /index.htm

I can only speak for my state - KY. But we are required to have a masters degree before we can get our teaching certificate. That is 30 hours beyond a bachelor's which should put me making the equivalent of other professions that have the same amount of education (lawyers and pharmacists for instance). I am also currently working on a second masters degree (typically called a Rank I) which many teachers also choose to get. I have to agree with thirtybillsunpaid that we can decrease the salary for teachers by decreasing the amount of education and responsbility required but we'll end up with babysitters not educators. I am all for accountability and I disagree with my union on a great deal but there has to be some level of compromise on both sides or we're never going to change the system.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

At no point here have I grouped the teachers of this nation, with THE CHICAGO PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS.
This thread was titled THE Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike.
Here is a little background on the Chicago Public School System.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... pbXinczLMg

Since this article was posted, I would love to know how much change there has been.

We are talking about a school system where the children consistently rank at the bottom of the barrel, as far as test scores.
We are talking about a system where almost half, if not more, of the 8th graders, DO NOT read at the 8th grade level.
We are talking about a system where the dropout level of students is at almost 50%.
We are talking about a system where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the nation.

At no point was I discussing the teachers of Kentucky.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Washington DC.

I was discussing The Chicago Public Teachers, Their Union, and The Chicago Public School Sysem.
So why not keep on topic?
The Chicago Public Teachers Strike.

LikeAnOcean

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

At no point here have I grouped the teachers of this nation, with THE CHICAO PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS.
This thread was titled THE Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike.
Here is a little background on the Chicago Public School System.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... pbXinczLMg

Since this article was posted, I would love to know how much change there has been.

We are talking about a school system where the children consistently rank at the bottom of the barrel, as far as test scores.
We are talking about a system where almost half, if not more, of the 8th graders, DO NOT read at the 8th grade level.
We are talking about a system where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the nation.

At no point was I discussing the teachers of Kentucky.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Washington DC.

I was discussing The Chicago Public Teachers, Their Union, and The Chicago Public School Sysem.
So why not keep on topic?
The Chicago Public Teachers Strike.

I've heard, generally, the education is poorer because good teachers leave for higher paying suburban opportunities..

SPEEDY MCCREADY

LikeAnOcean wrote:

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

At no point here have I grouped the teachers of this nation, with THE CHICAO PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS.
This thread was titled THE Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike.
Here is a little background on the Chicago Public School System.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... pbXinczLMg

Since this article was posted, I would love to know how much change there has been.

We are talking about a school system where the children consistently rank at the bottom of the barrel, as far as test scores.
We are talking about a system where almost half, if not more, of the 8th graders, DO NOT read at the 8th grade level.
We are talking about a system where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the nation.

At no point was I discussing the teachers of Kentucky.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Washington DC.

I was discussing The Chicago Public Teachers, Their Union, and The Chicago Public School Sysem.
So why not keep on topic?
The Chicago Public Teachers Strike.

I've heard, generally, the education is poorer because good teachers leave for higher paying suburban opportunities..

So is it safe to say, for those teachers, it is not all about the children.
It is about the money.

LikeAnOcean

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

LikeAnOcean wrote:

SPEEDY MCCREADY wrote:

At no point here have I grouped the teachers of this nation, with THE CHICAO PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHERS.
This thread was titled THE Chicago Public School Teachers on Strike.
Here is a little background on the Chicago Public School System.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... pbXinczLMg

Since this article was posted, I would love to know how much change there has been.

We are talking about a school system where the children consistently rank at the bottom of the barrel, as far as test scores.
We are talking about a system where almost half, if not more, of the 8th graders, DO NOT read at the 8th grade level.
We are talking about a system where the teachers are some of the highest paid in the nation.

At no point was I discussing the teachers of Kentucky.
At no point was I discussing the teachers of Washington DC.

I was discussing The Chicago Public Teachers, Their Union, and The Chicago Public School Sysem.
So why not keep on topic?
The Chicago Public Teachers Strike.

I've heard, generally, the education is poorer because good teachers leave for higher paying suburban opportunities..

So is it safe to say, for those teachers, it is not all about the children.
It is about the money.

I think for most people it is. You could argue, they are still doing what they love. If you had an opportunity to do what you do, but for higher pay, would you take the lower pay just because? Wouldn't you rather work for an employer that shows more appreciation?

inlet13

riotgrl wrote:

I can only speak for my state - KY. But we are required to have a masters degree before we can get our teaching certificate. That is 30 hours beyond a bachelor's which should put me making the equivalent of other professions that have the same amount of education (lawyers and pharmacists for instance). I am also currently working on a second masters degree (typically called a Rank I) which many teachers also choose to get. I have to agree with thirtybillsunpaid that we can decrease the salary for teachers by decreasing the amount of education and responsbility required but we'll end up with babysitters not educators. I am all for accountability and I disagree with my union on a great deal but there has to be some level of compromise on both sides or we're never going to change the system.

In PA many teachers also have Master's degrees. Yet, many, if not the heavy majority, don't pay for these out of their pocket - the school assists. Did you pay for yours?

81

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

The $32M in union dues is what they choose to do with their negotiated salary. They might be paying too much, but that is their business. If they weren't paying it... it wouldn't be going to textbooks... it would be going in their pockets and rightfully so.

We can't discuss this issue in a slightly bigger context? You could look at a lot of things under a microscope and notice the imperfections.

You keep going on about the $32 million and other items... how about you answer a few of the questions that have been asked of you: Do you support a 'watered-down' education system that demands much less in terms of accreditation for teachers and, as such, delivers much less in terms of money and benefits in return?

and you are telling me that $32M isn't considered when the union comes up with salary demands? you know damn well they are planning for their pocket padding

as for watered down education system...i never said that....nor do i want that. i do want admin's cut and unions deleted from chicago schools.

i'm still waiting for someone to tell me what that $32M buys me. obviously, not a t shirt.

cincybearcat

dimitrispearljam wrote:

these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...

While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.

81

cincybearcat wrote:

dimitrispearljam wrote:

these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...

While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.

i don't recall picking up much of my character from teachers...more from friends and family...not to mention, we are sort of born with a predetermined mindset, although it can be influnced some.

81

one of the local radio stations had a teacher on this AM. she was saying the picketers were getting a lot of thumb downs from passerby's.

SPEEDY MCCREADY

81 wrote:

one of the local radio stations had a teacher on this AM. she was saying the picketers were getting a lot of thumb downs from passerby's.

Did you happen to see The Lake Forest school teachers this morning?
I guess they are striking to?

It gave me a chuckle.
They were all standing outside of their little school.
All the men were in suits and ties, the ladies in dresses and pant suits.
Calmly holding their little picket signs...

As compared to the red shirt wearing, drum playing, chanting teachers, who are marching in the streets of The Loop.

Hey Hey
Ho Ho
Rahm Emanuel has got to go?

Really?
And I am supposed to take these striking teachers seriously?

inlet13

At the end of the day, the education system is a complete and utter mess. Admittedly, it's not just the teacher's fault. It's the students and parents. It's the system. It's the government.

In many spouts on these issues, I side with the teacher. Because many times personal responsibility isn't accepted from parents and students. Everyone has a job in education and each should accept responsibility. For example, (long ago) if a child got poor grades, parents held most blame to the child, not the teacher. Children probably also accepted responsibility more. Teachers probably felt some more responsibility as well. Now-a-days it's everyone else's fault.

So, what I find ironic, is how the teachers react to this mess. In this thread and elsewhere. In this debate - How THEY react. When discussing "testing" there ability to teach (for example), that can't be done pretty much ever because "of the students". Lines like - "what if the student fails on purpose because they don't like me" are used as rationalizations. When discussing pay, teachers are claiming they don't make enough (although they are making well above the mean wage) and are being asked to work longer days (despite having off for 2 months every summer and working less hours than many other public school systems). Teachers need to accept personal responsibility. Now. Stop with the bullshit. Step up.

The truth is there are problem students. But, that doesn't mean teachers shouldn't be blamed if you're not improving your class' standing. Do you think head coaches make the same excuses? I'd like to see Andy Reid bitch about his shitty players and see how long he'd last.

Our economy is in the doldrums. Private sector is cutting back, and because of our huge debt - public sector is and should too. We're all hurting, yet we're doing the best with what we have. That's what's bothering the common person watching this debate. There's no level-headed aspect to the teacher's side on this issue. It's greed - and it's worse than typical greed. And it's one thing to be greedy when you're in private enterprise - because there, if the money is used incorrectly, the firm goes out of business. That money wasn't public funds. With public money - there's no going out of business - it just results in an increase in our gov't debt, which is one reason we're in the mess we're in. It's our tax money that's being spent. We have a right to say - shut up and go back to work.

This issue is beginning to make me sick to my stomach. The self-centered aspect of what these folks think they "deserve" from tax money is bordering on ridiculous.

The entitlement society has officially bled into public employment. That's a scary, scary thing. But, at the end of the day, the private market which funds those public jobs won't stand for it. It will take a while, but the more these problems erupt, the less likely I see these public sector "entitlements" existing in 25-50 years.

riotgrl

inlet13 wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

I can only speak for my state - KY. But we are required to have a masters degree before we can get our teaching certificate. That is 30 hours beyond a bachelor's which should put me making the equivalent of other professions that have the same amount of education (lawyers and pharmacists for instance). I am also currently working on a second masters degree (typically called a Rank I) which many teachers also choose to get. I have to agree with thirtybillsunpaid that we can decrease the salary for teachers by decreasing the amount of education and responsbility required but we'll end up with babysitters not educators. I am all for accountability and I disagree with my union on a great deal but there has to be some level of compromise on both sides or we're never going to change the system.

In PA many teachers also have Master's degrees. Yet, many, if not the heavy majority, don't pay for these out of their pocket - the school assists. Did you pay for yours?

What is a majority? Can you give me a percentage and can you explain WHY they didn't pay for their education?

My Masters degree was initially paid for through students loans. After I received my masters and my teaching certificate and got my first job teaching I spent 6 years teaching in a high poverty area which has consistenly scored in the bottom in testing for a very long time. There was (and I assume this program is still in place) a federal program that paid for 40% of my degree after meeting stringent guidelines about when I incurred my loans, meeting teaching guidelines and standards, and being in a high poverty school for a minimum of 5 years. Sounds like your state has a generous plan to help educate teachers. So, did I pay for all of my masters, no. But I did pay for a majority of it and I paid for my bachelors degree out of my own pocket.

elvistheking44

81 wrote:

one of the local radio stations had a teacher on this AM. she was saying the picketers were getting a lot of thumb downs from passerby's.

My wife works in a salon and worked with a CPS teacher yesterday. She said she was completely embarrassed to be wearing the red shirt she was forced to buy.....

inlet13

riotgrl wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

riotgrl wrote:

I can only speak for my state - KY. But we are required to have a masters degree before we can get our teaching certificate. That is 30 hours beyond a bachelor's which should put me making the equivalent of other professions that have the same amount of education (lawyers and pharmacists for instance). I am also currently working on a second masters degree (typically called a Rank I) which many teachers also choose to get. I have to agree with thirtybillsunpaid that we can decrease the salary for teachers by decreasing the amount of education and responsbility required but we'll end up with babysitters not educators. I am all for accountability and I disagree with my union on a great deal but there has to be some level of compromise on both sides or we're never going to change the system.

In PA many teachers also have Master's degrees. Yet, many, if not the heavy majority, don't pay for these out of their pocket - the school assists. Did you pay for yours?

What is a majority? Can you give me a percentage and can you explain WHY they didn't pay for their education?

My Masters degree was initially paid for through students loans. After I received my masters and my teaching certificate and got my first job teaching I spent 6 years teaching in a high poverty area which has consistenly scored in the bottom in testing for a very long time. There was (and I assume this program is still in place) a federal program that paid for 40% of my degree after meeting stringent guidelines about when I incurred my loans, meeting teaching guidelines and standards, and being in a high poverty school for a minimum of 5 years. Sounds like your state has a generous plan to help educate teachers. So, did I pay for all of my masters, no. But I did pay for a majority of it and I paid for my bachelors degree out of my own pocket.

In PA, the school system that they went to work for paid for their master's degree if it was required.

It's simply lying for people to pretend in this thread that they have to pay $300K in educational expenses to secure a teaching position. Sure, one needs to go to college. That's the case for most jobs - particularly jobs in education. Beyond that, some school districts may require Masters, others may not. If they do, there's typically programs to help with educational costs. This just gets into costs - not difficulty of the major, which is another story entirely.

81

inlet13 wrote:

It's simply lying for people to pretend in this thread that they have to pay $300K in educational expenses to secure a teaching position. Sure, one needs to go to college. That's the case for most jobs - particularly jobs in education. Beyond that, some school districts may require Masters, others may not. If they do, there's typically programs to help with educational costs. This just gets into costs - not difficulty of the major, which is another story entirely.

he's including a really nice school PLUS the lost cost of working during those 4 years.

we should discuss the cost of a college education....talk about something that has got out of hand over the last 30+ years.

inlet13

81 wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

It's simply lying for people to pretend in this thread that they have to pay $300K in educational expenses to secure a teaching position. Sure, one needs to go to college. That's the case for most jobs - particularly jobs in education. Beyond that, some school districts may require Masters, others may not. If they do, there's typically programs to help with educational costs. This just gets into costs - not difficulty of the major, which is another story entirely.

he's including a really nice school PLUS the lost cost of working during those 4 years.

we should discuss the cost of a college education....talk about something that has got out of hand over the last 30+ years.

If you can do me a favor - please communicate this to him: Waah.

He should try getting a PhD. I suppose that means I was out $1 million when I spent 6 years getting my PhD? ...Then ironically settling for a college teaching position that pays LESS than the average CPS teacher's salary. That's why this issue doesn't make sense. These CPS teachers need to educate themselves on this thing called reality.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

81 wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

The $32M in union dues is what they choose to do with their negotiated salary. They might be paying too much, but that is their business. If they weren't paying it... it wouldn't be going to textbooks... it would be going in their pockets and rightfully so.

We can't discuss this issue in a slightly bigger context? You could look at a lot of things under a microscope and notice the imperfections.

You keep going on about the $32 million and other items... how about you answer a few of the questions that have been asked of you: Do you support a 'watered-down' education system that demands much less in terms of accreditation for teachers and, as such, delivers much less in terms of money and benefits in return?

and you are telling me that $32M isn't considered when the union comes up with salary demands? you know damn well they are planning for their pocket padding

as for watered down education system...i never said that....nor do i want that. i do want admin's cut and unions deleted from chicago schools.

i'm still waiting for someone to tell me what that $32M buys me. obviously, not a t shirt.

I've already told you. You're not hearing the answer. It is their money to spend any way they want. A salary was negotiated. From that negotiated salary they pay their union dues. They could spend it on anything they want... but they choose (or are forced) to spend a small chunk of their salaries on union dues.

If you cannot think of what the union dues are for (I had assumed that it was common sense)... let me enlighten you: union reps salaries; clerical staff; office space; supplies; phone bills; power bills; strike wages; computers; likes Nickleback signs (lol); etc.

Hey... they might be paying too much... it might be a crappy thing... it might even be a corrupt thing (which I highly doubt by the way)... but it shouldn't be your concern... unless:

your point is that teachers are paying too much in union dues if you consider the sum they have accumulated and if they didn't pay so much... they'd have more to put in their pockets and be more satisfied... you might have something. It might be a teacher's concern: "Hey. How do we have $32 M in union dues? I think we pay too much!" But I have never got this sense from you. You keep slamming your fist down on your desk and talking about how many textbooks, air-conditioning units, and extra teachers they could buy with that money.

On that note, some have poked fun at their request for air-conditioning units. Why is that ridiculous? You fill up a room with 25 kids and sit in it for an hour in June... that's not exactly pleasant. If learning is actually an objective, I don't think having kids sweating their nut sacks off in a muggy room is condusive for yielding that. Some have rolled their eyes and suggested this is yet another comfort request all about the teacher- whining as usual- but don't you think your kids are worth an air-conditioned room when at school? Granted the teacher benefits as well... but I am actually shocked that AC isn't in place.

Is Chicago full of public buildings without AC? Or did the buck stop right before the public schools? If it did... I think that alone reflects the attitude the city holds for its school institution and the population it serves. 'Kids don't need AC. Just get in there and be happy you have a there'. Not nice.

81

we didn't have AC in my school...i don't remember it being much of an issue.

if the teachers weren't forced to pay union fee's, we could reduce salaries by $32M and the teacher wouldn't even notice....don't tell me it's their money to spend as they choose. they are forced to join the union, and we both know damn well, the union factors in thier cut when dealing with salaries.

i'd love to see the union financials to see where all those $'s are going. we never will tho. and yes, i understand the union has costs and what those costs are.

you obviously have no clue about corruption in chicago/IL. last two governors are in prison, a state rep is going to be joining them shortly. the list goes on and on.

Thirty Bills Unpaid

inlet13 wrote:

81 wrote:

inlet13 wrote:

It's simply lying for people to pretend in this thread that they have to pay $300K in educational expenses to secure a teaching position. Sure, one needs to go to college. That's the case for most jobs - particularly jobs in education. Beyond that, some school districts may require Masters, others may not. If they do, there's typically programs to help with educational costs. This just gets into costs - not difficulty of the major, which is another story entirely.

he's including a really nice school PLUS the lost cost of working during those 4 years.

we should discuss the cost of a college education....talk about something that has got out of hand over the last 30+ years.

If you can do me a favor - please communicate this to him: Waah.

He should try getting a PhD. I suppose that means I was out $1 million when I spent 6 years getting my PhD? ...Then ironically settling for a college teaching position that pays LESS than the average CPS teacher's salary. That's why this issue doesn't make sense. These CPS teachers need to educate themselves on this thing called reality.

I'm not from the CPS. What I pointed out was reality. Is the money spent on university tuitions and lost from the opportunity to be employed during that time spent at school too difficult for you to comprehend? I wasn't complaining about it either. I pointed out that if that is the expectation... then people should be compensated for this.

In BC, over 80% of our teaching force are women now. Men can make more money right out of the gates doing a number of good jobs that require no education and offer great benefits. The profession is no longer appealing to some who need a bit more motivation to commit themselves to pursuing a career in the field. This might be good, but I think it is bad. I'm not suggesting anything about women teachers, but I can say that strong male influences in the school system are a positive thing.

If you have a PhD... and I'm doubting this somewhat- or at a minimum wondering what it is- given your 'waah' comment, I would think you are making a generous wage and have a good lifestyle. Society needs educated people to lead us into the future. While I want blue collar workers to earn a very good living, I want- we need- people to do some of the things that require time at school. For their sacrifice... I want to reward them. So thank you for your sacrifice and I hope that PhD is helping us.

By the way... I paid for my 2 undergraduate degrees and my masters degree by myself. No assistance from anyone.