my first reaction was to remember that what I learned most in school sports was how the strongest and most aggressive were most capable of inflicting pain and injury on the weakest.
You learned that from tennis?
hippiemom = goodness
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
my first reaction was to remember that what I learned most in school sports was how the strongest and most aggressive were most capable of inflicting pain and injury on the weakest.
You learned that from tennis?
Of course! Always strike with the hard edge of the racket first!
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
Actually, Cincy, I opted to go easy on my response because I was trying to avoid sounding confrontational. To be even more honest, my first reaction was to remember that what I learned most in school sports was how the strongest and most aggressive were most capable of inflicting pain and injury on the weakest. This works fine and is necessary if your a wild animal but as humans we are capable of contributing to others and the world around us with our minds and creativity as well. That's why I'm a bookseller and not into a more predatory line of work.
And I actually do like baseball- but that's more a form of physical poetry and a game of strategy than it is a sport.
Besides football and wrestling, what other high school sports feature physical contact and send the message above? Wrestling is by weight so technique is more important then anything. Football is by class and it is a sport of strategy and technique ... practices were much more brutal then the actual game. Games were very fun ... two-a-days in August, not so much. :(
The other sports we had were basketball, track and field, swimming, tennis, baseball, golf, cross country, soccer, volleyball ... I'm sure there were a few others but none match your description.
Anywho, thread is getting derailed. Again, how about the Democrats War on Teachers?
:corn:
Be Excellent To Each Other
Party On, Dudes!
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
Besides football and wrestling, what other high school sports feature physical contact and send the message above?
In high school? All of them. Except square dancing. But that sends a different message all together.
But yes, back to war on teachers. Hardly a partisan issue. In this country, generally speaking, teachers don't get no respect. Period.
They certainly play the victim well. It's almost like they are kidnapped, taken off to college to get the necessary degrees and forced into the profession despite all these terrible things about it.
hippiemom = goodness
0
brianlux
Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 42,417
Besides football and wrestling, what other high school sports feature physical contact and send the message above?
In high school? All of them. Except square dancing. But that sends a different message all together.
But yes, back to war on teachers. Hardly a partisan issue. In this country, generally speaking, teachers don't get no respect. Period.
They certainly play the victim well. It's almost like they are kidnapped, taken off to college to get the necessary degrees and forced into the profession despite all these terrible things about it.
Oh, but it's not all terrible! Turning kids on to new ideas, leading them toward critical thinking, helping them pick up their own penny-- that's the reward!
But here's a tip, beleaguered teachers: you can do much the same as a bookseller. But if you think teaching pay sucked...
"Pretty cookies, heart squares all around, yeah!" -Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
nah not all sports or playground equipment. kids should play and be active for their health. However, organized sports have a 100% injury rate, cost boatloads of money, and teach questionable values at best. How about an intramural sport system where the kids coach themselves and play on their own schedules? This would literally cost next to nothing to run (maybe some basic equipment), but no officials, no coaches, no fucked up parents, no nothing but kids and their games with their rules.
The worst injuries I suffered were in intramural sports. In a pickup game of football, I was going for a deep pass and slammed into a parked car that was serving as a boundary while looking backwards for the pass. It took me out at the knees and I slammed face-first into the hood.
:fp:
Still, we both know this is not the solution. It's a nuance we can pick at and there is not an abundance of $60M high school stadiums. I'm guessing under 3 total, probably this is it. It's like picking away at all the luxury schools in Cali that are in trouble because they were finance prior to 2008. It's an issue and it sucks ... but it's not the problem.
Back to the issue at hand ... the Democrat's War on Teachers. Oh, sweet irony!
Of course that's one major ridiculous example, but the amount of money spent on formal school sports is astounding. I live down the street from Calvert Hall ... gotta go teach class but you should check out their sports stadia it's outrageous. What does sport teach kids anyway? To never question authority, to keep quiet about injury and play through it, and to break the rules of the game to gain an advantage. Anyway you are right democrats are really fucking this one up. Republicans can pretend like they wouldn't do the same.
I think you need to re-think your position on what sports teaches kids. Athletics is the forum that gives some kids exactly what they need to 'make it out there'. Commitment, perseverance, dedication, becoming a team player, dealing with adversity, and so on, and so on... . Like it or not, it also creates an excellent setting where many leaders are developed.
Just like one shouldn't paint all teachers with the same brush that has painted the few terrible teachers out there... one also shouldn't paint all athletic programs with the brush that has painted the high profile and rare 'scandalous' programs.
The negative and very general statements you asserted is very disrespectful to coaches and athletes who tend to their sports just as passionately as teachers and students likely do in other contexts. Like athletics... math, music, and poetry isn't for everyone. It's appropriate to provide multitudes of contexts for students to discover themselves.
As well, athletics can be very useful in helping establish school cultures and promoting school pride- it's a big part of the high school experience for many kids.
As for sport I think those of you defending it so vehemently are missing my point. I said above, and reiterated it, that sport and physical activity can be a positive thing for students. Of course they learn all that flowery stuff most of you pointed out, but you're bullshitting yourself if you think that sport doesn't teach bad things as well. Hell at my high school my sister was a cheerleader and had to bake cookies for football players every Friday (presumably so she'd learn her place as a woman). Thus, my argument was the way that organized sport is currently practiced at many schools is to the detriment of student education. There are countless examples of places that vote for school athletic facilities to get more money while teachers and the educational spaces do not (http://voices.yahoo.com/go-tigers-rich- ... 76597.html). I was merely arguing for a student-centered, recreational sport system, run by students, coached by students, and organized by students whereby they become empowered to lead, make decisions, rules, and so on. This would allow for more funds to be funneled to the educational aspects of schools (train slowly re-railing).
I was merely arguing for a student-centered, recreational sport system, run by students, coached by students, and organized by students whereby they become empowered to lead, make decisions, rules, and so on. This would allow for more funds to be funneled to the educational aspects of schools (train slowly re-railing).
But why with athletics and not the rest of education...let's make music class student-centered, recreations, run by students, taught by students...
Can do that with anything. I don't understand why academia always feels the need to belittle athletics.
I was merely arguing for a student-centered, recreational sport system, run by students, coached by students, and organized by students whereby they become empowered to lead, make decisions, rules, and so on. This would allow for more funds to be funneled to the educational aspects of schools (train slowly re-railing).
But why with athletics and not the rest of education...let's make music class student-centered, recreations, run by students, taught by students...
Can do that with anything. I don't understand why academia always feels the need to belittle athletics.
We mock what we don't understand.
Academics usually aren't very good at sports and athletes generally aren't very good at academics. Except me, of course.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
Look, for the record, I played high school basketball and golf, and then collegiate baseball so it's not like I didn't get into the action and am bitching from the outside. However, can you post me any examples of where a school built a $60 million art studio, or musical space? That's what I'm getting at - sport gets the lions share to the detriment of most other forms of education. I'm not belittling sport, I'm belittling it's space of reverence in our society.
Look, for the record, I played high school basketball and golf, and then collegiate baseball so it's not like I didn't get into the action and am bitching from the outside. However, can you post me any examples of where a school built a $60 million art studio, or musical space? That's what I'm getting at - sport gets the lions share to the detriment of most other forms of education. I'm not belittling sport, I'm belittling it's space of reverence in our society.
Ramon C. Cortines School Of Visual And Performing Arts - $272M - LA Public School
Look, for the record, I played high school basketball and golf, and then collegiate baseball so it's not like I didn't get into the action and am bitching from the outside. However, can you post me any examples of where a school built a $60 million art studio, or musical space? That's what I'm getting at - sport gets the lions share to the detriment of most other forms of education. I'm not belittling sport, I'm belittling it's space of reverence in our society.
How much revenue does a college art studio bring in, or how about a college play/concert?
Look, for the record, I played high school basketball and golf, and then collegiate baseball so it's not like I didn't get into the action and am bitching from the outside. However, can you post me any examples of where a school built a $60 million art studio, or musical space? That's what I'm getting at - sport gets the lions share to the detriment of most other forms of education. I'm not belittling sport, I'm belittling it's space of reverence in our society.
How much revenue does a college art studio bring in, or how about a college play/concert?
you do know that collegiate athletics teams - particularly football teams - lose shit tons of money. Literally, only 6 turn a profit out of the 300+ schools that offer football so that argument demonstrates that you listen to what the mainstream media feeds down our throats and have not actually looked at the way those programs cook the books. Also, I would guess that very few high school programs turn a profit, and, on top of that, what does bringing in revenue and turning a profit have to do with education?
Also, I would guess that very few high school programs turn a profit, and, on top of that, what does bringing in revenue and turning a profit have to do with education?
The Chicago public school system faces a deficit of $700M in 2013. The unions want a pay raise which will increase that deficit.
Also, I would guess that very few high school programs turn a profit, and, on top of that, what does bringing in revenue and turning a profit have to do with education?
The Chicago public school system faces a deficit of $700M in 2013. The unions want a pay raise which will increase that deficit.
What does revenue have to do with education? :fp:
sorry, let me rephrase, why are we relying on sports teams to drive revenue and turn a profit when that has, for all but a few schools, never worked. Seriously 6 out of 300 in college and probably less in high school turn a profit. Why not do what we should do and stop giving corporations tax breaks and start funneling that shit to our teachers and schools. Oh wait, I said the T word and meant it.
sorry, let me rephrase, why are we relying on sports teams to drive revenue and turn a profit when that has, for all but a few schools, never worked. Seriously 6 out of 300 in college and probably less in high school turn a profit. Why not do what we should do and stop giving corporations tax breaks and start funneling that shit to our teachers and schools. Oh wait, I said the T word and meant it.
Where do you get that 6 in 300 teams in college don't turn a profit? That is unpossible I say. Unpossible.
sorry, let me rephrase, why are we relying on sports teams to drive revenue and turn a profit when that has, for all but a few schools, never worked. Seriously 6 out of 300 in college and probably less in high school turn a profit. Why not do what we should do and stop giving corporations tax breaks and start funneling that shit to our teachers and schools. Oh wait, I said the T word and meant it.
Where do you get that 6 in 300 teams in college don't turn a profit? That is unpossible I say. Unpossible.
More likely, he is including the entire athletic program. That could be true because for each scholarship in football, the university must provide a female athletic scholarship. And field hockey don't make $. So as a whole they might lose $ due to Title IX.
And that is entire athletic departments. Football is making money, Title IX is losing it.
Thank goodness for football. It would be a complete washout if not for all glorious and powerful football! Let us begin construction of the colosseums nationwide so that water polo teams and tennis programs can exist.
I've gotta find the harshest article (and start a different thread) but even with the nicest numbers 44% of schools lose money on football so how the eff are they "paying" for the other sports?
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/05/16/ncaa
While football and men's basketball programs are generally seen as supporting other sports teams in Division, fewer than 60 percent of those programs reported net "generated" revenues for all three years in the 2004-6 period, the NCAA report finds.
In the Football Championship Subdivision (the competitive level previously known as Division I-AA), there was a less visible gap between haves and have-nots, because not a single athletics program had positive net revenues in 2006. The median net loss for the 118 programs at that level was $7.1 million, although programs generated as much as $15.2 million in revenues and spent as much as $34.9 million, far above the medians of $2.3 million and $11.4 million, respectively.
Among the remaining programs in Division I -- those that don't play football at all -- all 94 had expenses that exceeded their generated revenues, and the median net loss was about $5.8 million.
2006 Median Revenues and Expenditures by Division I Subdivisions
Median Total Revenues Median Generated Revenues Median Total Expenses Median Net Revenue (or Deficit)
Football Bowl Subdivision $35,400,000 $26,342,000 $35,756,000 -$7,265,000
Football Championship Subdivision $9,642,000 $2,345,000 $9,485,000 -$7,121,000
Division I -- no football $8,771,000 $1,828,000 $8,918,000 -$6,607,000
I've gotta find the harshest article (and start a different thread) but even with the nicest numbers 44% of schools lose money on football so how the eff are they "paying" for the other sports?
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/05/16/ncaa
While football and men's basketball programs are generally seen as supporting other sports teams in Division, fewer than 60 percent of those programs reported net "generated" revenues for all three years in the 2004-6 period, the NCAA report finds.
In the Football Championship Subdivision (the competitive level previously known as Division I-AA), there was a less visible gap between haves and have-nots, because not a single athletics program had positive net revenues in 2006. The median net loss for the 118 programs at that level was $7.1 million, although programs generated as much as $15.2 million in revenues and spent as much as $34.9 million, far above the medians of $2.3 million and $11.4 million, respectively.
Among the remaining programs in Division I -- those that don't play football at all -- all 94 had expenses that exceeded their generated revenues, and the median net loss was about $5.8 million.
2006 Median Revenues and Expenditures by Division I Subdivisions
Median Total Revenues Median Generated Revenues Median Total Expenses Median Net Revenue (or Deficit)
Football Bowl Subdivision $35,400,000 $26,342,000 $35,756,000 -$7,265,000
Football Championship Subdivision $9,642,000 $2,345,000 $9,485,000 -$7,121,000
Division I -- no football $8,771,000 $1,828,000 $8,918,000 -$6,607,000
This has morphed into a discussion regarding college athletics and the viability of their programs.
I know you responded to my original assertion where I thought you needed to re-think your position on the role of athletics in high schools: you responded that there were some 'flowery' things that could be deliverables from an athletic experience. Again... you have dismissed the value of athletics in high schools by minimizing the positive impact of the athletic programs and what they offer students who need them.
If one was to disregard athletics with such disfavour... couldn't someone else trivialize all other aspects of the school setting? What does anyone learn from blowing into a flute? What can anyone learn drawing a picture? Is it really important to know the date for the completion of the railroad? Is the French Revolution relevant anymore? Why study Shakespeare when the English language has evolved to the point where it makes his written work merely relics of the past? Why provide a theater for students to rehearse and produce plays? Is Algebra really necessary... I mean where do you see such formulas in everyday life?
Endless.
And, aside from being dismissive... all of these questions really harm the integrity of the school system and the value of all programs to kids. Just as some kids need to connect with a band program or others be challenged with difficult math problems... some kids need athletics. To attempt to 'trim this bit of fat' as you have kind of suggested is very narrow-minded thinking and quite frankly, given the thought you have put into many of your other comments... I'm surprised.
I was a college athlete too. And thank the heavens. If I hadn't had basketball growing up... I don't think I'd have very much of anything now. I owe everything in my life to sport.
The Democrat's War on Teachers has reached a compromise. This was my favorite quote:
Darren Tuggle, who has taught high school English for 13 years, said the strike wasn't about money, but about classroom conditions. He said that teachers were frustrated with the board, whose members are appointed and most of whom came from business backgrounds.
:think:
So if there is a $700M shortfall in the budget next year ... and more money is paid to the teachers ... where does the money to improve classroom conditions magically come from?
The Democrat's War on Teachers has reached a compromise. This was my favorite quote:
Darren Tuggle, who has taught high school English for 13 years, said the strike wasn't about money, but about classroom conditions. He said that teachers were frustrated with the board, whose members are appointed and most of whom came from business backgrounds.
:think:
So if there is a $700M shortfall in the budget next year ... and more money is paid to the teachers ... where does the money to improve classroom conditions magically come from?
:?:
Let me give Ben Bernanke a call and see what he would do.
I think the thing I most liked about this story was that they pointed out that not all districts are the same. While some of the complaints about teachers in YOUR district are valid, we do not have centralized standards that apply across the nation; therefore, some of the generalized statements are true, you cannot/should not paint all teachers or union with the same broad stroke.
Are we getting something out of this all-encompassing trip?
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
Comments
You learned that from tennis?
Of course! Always strike with the hard edge of the racket first!
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
The other sports we had were basketball, track and field, swimming, tennis, baseball, golf, cross country, soccer, volleyball ... I'm sure there were a few others but none match your description.
Anywho, thread is getting derailed. Again, how about the Democrats War on Teachers?
:corn:
In high school? All of them. Except square dancing. But that sends a different message all together.
But yes, back to war on teachers. Hardly a partisan issue. In this country, generally speaking, teachers don't get no respect. Period.
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
They certainly play the victim well. It's almost like they are kidnapped, taken off to college to get the necessary degrees and forced into the profession despite all these terrible things about it.
Oh, but it's not all terrible! Turning kids on to new ideas, leading them toward critical thinking, helping them pick up their own penny-- that's the reward!
But here's a tip, beleaguered teachers: you can do much the same as a bookseller. But if you think teaching pay sucked...
-Eddie Vedder, "Smile"
I think you need to re-think your position on what sports teaches kids. Athletics is the forum that gives some kids exactly what they need to 'make it out there'. Commitment, perseverance, dedication, becoming a team player, dealing with adversity, and so on, and so on... . Like it or not, it also creates an excellent setting where many leaders are developed.
Just like one shouldn't paint all teachers with the same brush that has painted the few terrible teachers out there... one also shouldn't paint all athletic programs with the brush that has painted the high profile and rare 'scandalous' programs.
The negative and very general statements you asserted is very disrespectful to coaches and athletes who tend to their sports just as passionately as teachers and students likely do in other contexts. Like athletics... math, music, and poetry isn't for everyone. It's appropriate to provide multitudes of contexts for students to discover themselves.
As well, athletics can be very useful in helping establish school cultures and promoting school pride- it's a big part of the high school experience for many kids.
As for sport I think those of you defending it so vehemently are missing my point. I said above, and reiterated it, that sport and physical activity can be a positive thing for students. Of course they learn all that flowery stuff most of you pointed out, but you're bullshitting yourself if you think that sport doesn't teach bad things as well. Hell at my high school my sister was a cheerleader and had to bake cookies for football players every Friday (presumably so she'd learn her place as a woman). Thus, my argument was the way that organized sport is currently practiced at many schools is to the detriment of student education. There are countless examples of places that vote for school athletic facilities to get more money while teachers and the educational spaces do not (http://voices.yahoo.com/go-tigers-rich- ... 76597.html). I was merely arguing for a student-centered, recreational sport system, run by students, coached by students, and organized by students whereby they become empowered to lead, make decisions, rules, and so on. This would allow for more funds to be funneled to the educational aspects of schools (train slowly re-railing).
But why with athletics and not the rest of education...let's make music class student-centered, recreations, run by students, taught by students...
Can do that with anything. I don't understand why academia always feels the need to belittle athletics.
We mock what we don't understand.
Academics usually aren't very good at sports and athletes generally aren't very good at academics. Except me, of course.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_School_for_the_Visual_and_Performing_Arts
Robert F. Kennedy Community School - $578M - LA Public School
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_F._Kennedy_Community_Schools
:ugeek:
What does revenue have to do with education? :fp:
It's not true....
http://businessofcollegesports.com/2011 ... t-profits/
More likely, he is including the entire athletic program. That could be true because for each scholarship in football, the university must provide a female athletic scholarship. And field hockey don't make $. So as a whole they might lose $ due to Title IX.
And that is entire athletic departments. Football is making money, Title IX is losing it.
Are you not entertained?
http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2008/05/16/ncaa
While football and men's basketball programs are generally seen as supporting other sports teams in Division, fewer than 60 percent of those programs reported net "generated" revenues for all three years in the 2004-6 period, the NCAA report finds.
In the Football Championship Subdivision (the competitive level previously known as Division I-AA), there was a less visible gap between haves and have-nots, because not a single athletics program had positive net revenues in 2006. The median net loss for the 118 programs at that level was $7.1 million, although programs generated as much as $15.2 million in revenues and spent as much as $34.9 million, far above the medians of $2.3 million and $11.4 million, respectively.
Among the remaining programs in Division I -- those that don't play football at all -- all 94 had expenses that exceeded their generated revenues, and the median net loss was about $5.8 million.
2006 Median Revenues and Expenditures by Division I Subdivisions
Median Total Revenues Median Generated Revenues Median Total Expenses Median Net Revenue (or Deficit)
Football Bowl Subdivision $35,400,000 $26,342,000 $35,756,000 -$7,265,000
Football Championship Subdivision $9,642,000 $2,345,000 $9,485,000 -$7,121,000
Division I -- no football $8,771,000 $1,828,000 $8,918,000 -$6,607,000
This has morphed into a discussion regarding college athletics and the viability of their programs.
I know you responded to my original assertion where I thought you needed to re-think your position on the role of athletics in high schools: you responded that there were some 'flowery' things that could be deliverables from an athletic experience. Again... you have dismissed the value of athletics in high schools by minimizing the positive impact of the athletic programs and what they offer students who need them.
If one was to disregard athletics with such disfavour... couldn't someone else trivialize all other aspects of the school setting? What does anyone learn from blowing into a flute? What can anyone learn drawing a picture? Is it really important to know the date for the completion of the railroad? Is the French Revolution relevant anymore? Why study Shakespeare when the English language has evolved to the point where it makes his written work merely relics of the past? Why provide a theater for students to rehearse and produce plays? Is Algebra really necessary... I mean where do you see such formulas in everyday life?
Endless.
And, aside from being dismissive... all of these questions really harm the integrity of the school system and the value of all programs to kids. Just as some kids need to connect with a band program or others be challenged with difficult math problems... some kids need athletics. To attempt to 'trim this bit of fat' as you have kind of suggested is very narrow-minded thinking and quite frankly, given the thought you have put into many of your other comments... I'm surprised.
I was a college athlete too. And thank the heavens. If I hadn't had basketball growing up... I don't think I'd have very much of anything now. I owe everything in my life to sport.
Darren Tuggle, who has taught high school English for 13 years, said the strike wasn't about money, but about classroom conditions. He said that teachers were frustrated with the board, whose members are appointed and most of whom came from business backgrounds.
:think:
So if there is a $700M shortfall in the budget next year ... and more money is paid to the teachers ... where does the money to improve classroom conditions magically come from?
:?:
Let me give Ben Bernanke a call and see what he would do.
http://www.npr.org/2012/09/19/161424000/what-the-chicago-strike-taught-teachers-unions
I think the thing I most liked about this story was that they pointed out that not all districts are the same. While some of the complaints about teachers in YOUR district are valid, we do not have centralized standards that apply across the nation; therefore, some of the generalized statements are true, you cannot/should not paint all teachers or union with the same broad stroke.
Seems my preconceptions are what should have been burned...
I AM MINE