i felt the need to speak on behalf of a group of people that seemed to be taking quite a few unnecessary shots.
.
Ummmm, they are striking, they shouldn't be criticized? Seriously, it seems like some people think teachers should be immune to everything...no need to worry about the realities of the economy, can't judge their performance because somehow they are so unique in this world...it's getting really old.
Some teachers are great. But if they believe that they cant be evaluated and they don't understand the realities of the economy...well, then they are just as wrong as those idiot teachers out there that also exist.
Could you not test a student on the first day of class, or the first day THEY attend class......(I realize in Chicago we have a huge parade and rally to remind students when class begins)
Test them on the last day of class........
Attendance would have to be monitored extremely close.....
If your student tests shitty on the first day, and tests shitty on the last day but attends school 90% of the time it should fall on the teacher and a negative mark on the evaluation.
If your student tests shitty on the first day, and tests shitty on the last day but only attends school 10% of the time it should fall on the student and no negative mark on the evaluation.
If your student tests shitty on the first day, and his/her test score improves, positive mark on the evaluation.
Now I realize this does not help the student who misses 90% of the school year, but then again are we really failing that child or are his/her parents?
As a parent of a child in CPS system I must say its starting to boil over in our community. Parents are getting fed up and its only day 3. Karen Lewis has had her 15 minutes of fame and its time to get to serious business, not parade through the streets of Chicago and cause massive disruptions.
If this goes on for weeks I better see some serious fucking results in the classroom......
Ole Karen knows EXACTLY when the cameras are on, doesnt she. I picture her envisioning a reality show, and maybe a talk show. For some reason I believe she pictures herself as the next Oprah.
She thinks this is a reality show already. She's playing with my child's future.....and it needs to stop.
I'm going to restate one approach I mentioned earlier.
How about this for evaluations?
There's mean threshold salary for every school and there's national testing based on grade delivered to each school. Teacher's pay could be dictated by their class' % above or below the school average on that testing. If their class does better than the school average, they get paid above the mean school payrate at that percentage. If they are below the school average, they get paid below the mean school payrate at that percentage. If you rank in the bottom five teachers consistently - they are warned first and if it continues they are fired.
This way - there's no way for teachers to complain about their students. The students are the same within the school. Sure, you may have a bad crop one year relative to the rest of your school, but a good crop the next. Your job is to get the most out of them you can.
Teachers are bitching about their wage/work conditions when they are making well above the mean salary, have off for two months each summer and work less hours than the average job. Claims like 'they paid $300K in opportunity cost' to try to rationalize their relatively high wages are silly.
You lost me at "I'm an economist."
Well above the mean salary? The mean salary for college educated professionals, or the mean salary for everyone including 14 year olds and high school drop-outs?" Also, many teachers work during the summer, out of necessity to supplement their income, either teaching summer school, or doing something completely different. They also, generally spend time during their summer "vacation" to prepare for the coming school year. Furthermore, even if you were to only calculate a teacher's "hours" from the time they step into the classroom in the morning until the time they leave it, your "less hours than the average job" comment has me befuddled. Its offensive tripe, really. My "contracted" hours are from 8:30 to 4:30 Monday through Friday. Now, you're a brilliant economist so i'm sure you're quite good with numbers. 8 times 5 is 40 hours, Goodwill Hunting, and most teachers spend NON-contracted and unpaid time nearly every night and on the weekends. Again, relatively high wages compared to whom?! relative to what? i'm scratching my head right now. Listen, i mean no disrespect, but when the aforementioned revolution starts, i suggest locking your doors.
"When all your friends and sedatives mean well but make it worse... better find yourself a place to level out."
My "contracted" hours are from 8:30 to 4:30 Monday through Friday. Now, you're a brilliant economist so i'm sure you're quite good with numbers. 8 times 5 is 40 hours,
North Carolina's average is almost certainly lower than the national average, I would assume. Your buddy is doing arguably better than average for his state. Plus, he doesn't work for two months each summer and has nice retirement plan. He could bartend over the summer and make $60K easy. Maybe he does.
The incentive is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and a nice lifestyle doing something one believes that matters.
This is a simplification. As class sizes increase, the system becomes more regressive, and the culture more degenerative, the incentive decreases. A teacher's responsibility extends far beyond educating these days. Let's not pretend this is a stress-free career.
Wall Streeters, meanwhile may also earn a higher than average salary but they don't get months off at a time. Their career is somewhat shaky right now with the market volatility and their lifestyle (at least from the friends that I've seen go that route) sucks. 15 hour days all year round is not fun. I would want no part in going into working on wall street, personally.
I worked on Wall St. this summer as a commodities trader with a friend of mine who has been on Wall St. for 10 years. I think this idea of 15 hour days is an overgeneralization. I did not see any of that, and my friend, as well as other friends and family members in the industry, would also regard that as an overgeneralization.
Well above the mean salary? The mean salary for college educated professionals, or the mean salary for everyone including 14 year olds and high school drop-outs?"
I mean - umm... "the mean salary". As you know, mean is another word for average. In other words, the average salary in America.
As for college educated professionals, I don't know for sure. I do know that education as a major is often cited as the easiest of all majors. So, I would assume wages may reflect that, but I'm not sure. For example, the Chicago example of $75K is quite high and would probably be higher than most majors.
Also, many teachers work during the summer, out of necessity to supplement their income, either teaching summer school, or doing something completely different.
I know a number of highschool and grade school teachers. Some do nothing in the summer. Many of them in my area go on vacation to the beach for the summer. They do work down there as lifeguards, bartenders and whatnot and many rent their housing for the summer. I don't feel bad for them. They get to spend the entire summer at the beach, which is awesome. Basically, they do jobs that private sector workers were capable of doing when we were in college and had the availability to have off in the summer.
More power to them. I'm not saying this is something to be frowned upon. I think it's quite cool - in fact. But, and this is a big but, I don't feel sorry for them. They make an above average wage BEFORE these two month jobs. AND they can take these jobs with nothing lost. That's great.
They also, generally spend time during their summer "vacation" to prepare for the coming school year.
I teach and truth be told I teach - year round - no breaks. I know how much time is necessary to "prepare for the upcoming school year" and it's not a lot. One needs to be prepared for class for sure, but the truth is teachers "could" work all year round if necessary with no or very little break to "prepare for the upcoming school year".
Furthermore, even if you were to only calculate a teacher's "hours" from the time they step into the classroom in the morning until the time they leave it, your "less hours than the average job" comment has me befuddled.
Its offensive tripe, really. My "contracted" hours are from 8:30 to 4:30 Monday through Friday. Now, you're a brilliant economist so i'm sure you're quite good with numbers. 8 times 5 is 40 hours, Goodwill Hunting, and most teachers spend NON-contracted and unpaid time nearly every night and on the weekends.
Goodwill Hunting? Seriously?
The logic - 40 hours a week for 9 months vs. 40-hours a week for 12 months. Even the actor that played Goodwill Hunting could do the math.
Again, relatively high wages compared to whom?! relative to what? i'm scratching my head right now. Listen, i mean no disrespect, but when the aforementioned revolution starts, i suggest locking your doors.
Relative to their state. Relative to the nation. They make a decent wage, an admirable wage. A relatively high wage. Stop scratching your head for a moment, and just read what I wrote.
As for the aforementioned "revolution" your referring to, I have no clue what you're talking about. And the "I mean no disrepect" line is ummm... making me scratch my head. Re-read your post. Seems like you did to me.
I come from a family of educators and there are a couple of misnomers floating out in these posts about days off and hours worked from teachers.
1. Summers/Days worked- A teacher worth there salt will spend the first part of the Summer breaking down the classroom and taking some kind of training program to become better at the profession. Then in August they prep for the new incoming students and updated lessons. Usually July is the only full month off (still better than most jobs don't get me wrong) Those days worked are not counted in days worked. Also MOST teachers work Sundays prepping for the week ahead.
2. Hours per day. 7 hours is the time with students. Again AVERAGE teachers spend at least an hour before class and 2 hours after class prepping for the days/weeks ahead and grading papers. I would say MOST teachers work 10 hour days.
3. Parents. Parents are getting worse and worse at managing there kids education. They want to put all the blame on the teachers if a kid is getting bad grades. If you have large class sizes then you don't get to blame teachers for not having enough one on one time with struggling students. If a kid is getting bad grades its up to the parent to make sure they are getting there homework done and the kid understands it.
4. Days off during the school year. Again if the teacher is worth a damn they spend almost an extra full day of unpaid over time to prep the lessons for the substitute. So even if they get a "paid day off" they most likely worked 12 to 13 hours the day before.
I'm not denying this strike seems pointless and it seems Chicago Teachers are fairly compensated, but it URKS me when I here people rag on teachers for there time off and hours worked. If you think its such a sweet deal then become a teacher. My opinion is that if teachers made more money, more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher right out of school instead of falling back to it when there initial career flounders out (this not true of everyone but its just a personal opinion). Education in this country would much better if being a Teacher was as respected a position as a lawyer, wall st. exec, or a doctor. Especially with the 6 years of schooling that is required just like those other positions listed above.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
This is a simplification. As class sizes increase, the system becomes more regressive, and the culture more degenerative, the incentive decreases. A teacher's responsibility extends far beyond educating these days. Let's not pretend this is a stress-free career.
I'm not saying it's stress-free. No job is stress free to my knowledge. I don't see how "the system" becomes more regressive, etc. I'll repeat what I said - the incentive to work in the field is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and nice lifestyle doing something one believes in. I'll throw one more factor in to, which I'm sure will be ridiculed but there's without a doubt some truth to it: education is an easy college major relative to the alternatives. That, along with the aforementioned, encourages more folks try the field. You asked for incentives. You got em'.
This is not to say teachers aren't necessary, smart or great people. They are all of the above. But, their job was "chosen". And I don't feel sorry for them.
I come from a family of educators and there are a couple of misnomers floating out in these posts about days off and hours worked from teachers.
1. Summers/Days worked- A teacher worth there salt will spend the first part of the Summer breaking down the classroom and taking some kind of training program to become better at the profession. Then in August they prep for the new incoming students and updated lessons. Usually July is the only full month off (still better than most jobs don't get me wrong) Those days worked are not counted in days worked. Also MOST teachers work Sundays prepping for the week ahead.
2. Hours per day. 7 hours is the time with students. Again AVERAGE teachers spend at least an hour before class and 2 hours after class prepping for the days/weeks ahead and grading papers. I would say MOST teachers work 10 hour days.
3. Parents. Parents are getting worse and worse at managing there kids education. They want to put all the blame on the teachers if a kid is getting bad grades. If you have large class sizes then you don't get to blame teachers for not having enough one on one time with struggling students. If a kid is getting bad grades its up to the parent to make sure they are getting there homework done and the kid understands it.
4. Days off during the school year. Again if the teacher is worth a damn they spend almost an extra full day of unpaid over time to prep the lessons for the substitute. So even if they get a "paid day off" they most likely worked 12 to 13 hours the day before.
I'm not denying this strike seems pointless and it seems Chicago Teachers are fairly compensated, but it URKS me when I here people rag on teachers for there time off and hours worked. If you think its such a sweet deal then become a teacher. My opinion is that if teachers made more money, more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher right out of school instead of falling back to it when there initial career flounders out (this not true of everyone but its just a personal opinion). Education in this country would much better if being a Teacher was as respected a position as a lawyer, wall st. exec, or a doctor. Especially with the 6 years of schooling that is required just like those other positions listed above.
This is a simplification. As class sizes increase, the system becomes more regressive, and the culture more degenerative, the incentive decreases. A teacher's responsibility extends far beyond educating these days. Let's not pretend this is a stress-free career.
I'm not saying it's stress-free. No job is stress free to my knowledge. I don't see how "the system" becomes more regressive, etc. I'll repeat what I said - the incentive to work in the field is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and nice lifestyle doing something one believes in. I'll throw one more factor in to, which I'm sure will be ridiculed but there's without a doubt some truth to it: education is an easy college major relative to the alternatives. That, along with the aforementioned, encourages more folks try the field. You asked for incentives. You got em'.
This is not to say teachers aren't necessary, smart or great people. They are all of the above. But, their job was "chosen". And I don't feel sorry for them.
I teach at a university as well (and still trade commodities on the side; quite fun!). Teaching at a university is not comparable to teaching a public middle school or high school. A college lecture of 200 is more manageable than a 9th grade classroom of 30.
Education can be an easier major than others, and I will agree with something you said in an earlier post that Economics is one of the more difficult ones, but I have a B.S. in Finance and an MA and PhD in English (a field that people say is "easy" without anything close to experience or knowledge on the subject). Granted my experience with English was at a higher level, but Finance, at least in my experience, was not more difficult. English was.
I don't think Education is any easier than Management, Marketing, Communications, Philosophy, to name a few. A lot depends on the institution.
My opinion is that if teachers made more money, more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher right out of school instead of falling back to it when there initial career flounders out (this not true of everyone but its just a personal opinion). Education in this country would much better if being a Teacher was as respected a position as a lawyer, wall st. exec, or a doctor. Especially with the 6 years of schooling that is required just like those other positions listed above.
I'm going to say something that will probably URK you more:
Sorry in advance, but...
if "more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher" period, a large portion of the current teachers wouldn't make it into the field - they'd fail out or be bipassed for the "more talented". Once again, it's one of the easier college majors - that's a fact that a lot of folks leave out. That's not to say there aren't plenty of super-smart teachers out there who are in the field for the right reasons. I'm sure there are a ton, and these folks could beve much smarter than the smartest in other fields. It's to say - a lot of people go into the field because it's easy.
The difficulty in obtaining a master's in education is not comparable to that of a lawyer, for example. And I don't know where you live, but a doctor doesn't only require six years of college+grad work where I'm from.
Finally, I think the teacher is respected in terms of a career. I respect teachers a hell of a lot more than a lawyer. I just lose respect for them when they complain about $75K salaries, etc.
This is a simplification. As class sizes increase, the system becomes more regressive, and the culture more degenerative, the incentive decreases. A teacher's responsibility extends far beyond educating these days. Let's not pretend this is a stress-free career.
I'm not saying it's stress-free. No job is stress free to my knowledge. I don't see how "the system" becomes more regressive, etc. I'll repeat what I said - the incentive to work in the field is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and nice lifestyle doing something one believes in. I'll throw one more factor in to, which I'm sure will be ridiculed but there's without a doubt some truth to it: education is an easy college major relative to the alternatives. That, along with the aforementioned, encourages more folks try the field. You asked for incentives. You got em'.
This is not to say teachers aren't necessary, smart or great people. They are all of the above. But, their job was "chosen". And I don't feel sorry for them.
I teach at a university as well (and still trade commodities on the side; quite fun!). Teaching at a university is not comparable to teaching a public middle school or high school. A college lecture of 200 is more manageable than a 9th grade classroom of 30.
Education can be an easier major than others, and I will agree with something you said in an earlier post that Economics is one of the more difficult ones, but I have a B.S. in Finance and an MA and PhD in English (a field that people say is "easy" without anything close to experience or knowledge on the subject). Granted my experience with English was at a higher level, but Finance, at least in my experience, was not more difficult. English was.
I don't think Education is any easier than Management, Marketing, Communications, Philosophy, to name a few. A lot depends on the institution.
1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
I quickly read the actual study. It's not worth much to me. As I said before, the sciences and a few other fields are more difficult, but this study is based on GPA and there are far too many variables that are left out.
And, as it says in the link you provided, a lot relies on the individual. An individual earning a degree in Eduaction can put the same number of hours and the same level of hard work into their degree as someone earning their degree in Econ.
1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
I quickly read the actual study. It's not worth much to me. As I said before, the sciences and a few other fields are more difficult, but this study is based on GPA and there are far too many variables that are left out.
And, as it says in the link you provided, a lot relies on the individual. An individual earning a degree in Eduaction can put the same number of hours and the same level of hard work into their degree as someone earning their degree in Econ.
It means ease of grades. I don't agree that these rankings are not worth anything since they reflect grades. I certainly don't think a degree in education is on par with a degree in say - chemistry or math. More people fail out.
My opinion is that if teachers made more money, more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher right out of school instead of falling back to it when there initial career flounders out (this not true of everyone but its just a personal opinion). Education in this country would much better if being a Teacher was as respected a position as a lawyer, wall st. exec, or a doctor. Especially with the 6 years of schooling that is required just like those other positions listed above.
I'm going to say something that will probably URK you more:
Sorry in advance, but...
if "more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher" period, a large portion of the current teachers wouldn't make it into the field - they'd fail out or be bipassed for the "more talented". Once again, it's one of the easier college majors - that's a fact that a lot of folks leave out. That's not to say there aren't plenty of super-smart teachers out there who are in the field for the right reasons. I'm sure there are a ton, and these folks could beve much smarter than the smartest in other fields. It's to say - a lot of people go into the field because it's easy.
The difficulty in obtaining a master's in education is not comparable to that of a lawyer, for example. And I don't know where you live, but a doctor doesn't only require six years of college+grad work where I'm from.
Finally, I think the teacher is respected in terms of a career. I respect teachers a hell of a lot more than a lawyer. I just lose respect for them when they complain about $75K salaries, etc.
Most teachers don't sniff 75k...teachers in the Bay area make around 40 to 50 k for the first few years and its pretty damn expensive here. Also I said this strike seems excessive. I was making an observation how most people think teachers work the contracted days and hours and that is it. That is just wrong unless they are a very very poor teacher.
I'll say it again...I don't think the Chicago school systems should be shut down and its doing more harm than good to teachers across the country. Most teachers don't even sniff the pay these Chicago teachers complain about.
10/31/2000 (****)
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
So lemme get this straight. Using the stats in this thread...
Education degree is one of the easiest out there...check
Summers off, great benefits, job security...check
75k a year...check
and most quit within the first five years??????
Something doesn't add up. It probably all the overgeneralized, misconstrued, narrow, misleading, stats. Just a guess, though.
Where's this "most quit within the first five years" in Chicago stat? I m
issed that one.
I posted an article from forbes earlier. You never bothered to read it.
Interesting that you say you teach year round. That would be quite different from the profs i remember in university.
My recollection of profs were 6 months of teaching (can't count exam months). 2-3 lectures per week at 1and a half hours a pop. No marking as the GAs did that for them. And very little interaction with students except for the hotties that hung around right after the lecture.
Assessment practices weren't in place to facilitate learning. There were evaluation methods to sort and rank the students. Lastly, management was rarely an issue because each student was there because they paid dearly to be there.
Unless your style differs significantly from the overwhelming majority of my profs, don't be so quick to speak as if you know what a real teaching experience might be.
I posted an article from forbes earlier. You never bothered to read it.
Not sure if you're trying to come across like this, but seriously - just re-read what you wrote. How do you think that reads? The discussion is 20 pages long, I was involved early, than I came back in. I'm sorry I haven't read every single post. Care to re-post it?
Interesting that you say you teach year round. That would be quite different from the profs i remember in university.
So, first it was you were doubting my education, now you're doubting that I teach year round? :fp:
I do teach year-round. In fact, I work during the day as an economist and I teach at night. I have two full-time jobs. My position at night is paid just like the day faculty. Yet, both a day faculty position and my position makes less money than an average CPS teacher. And it's not cost of living - I live in Philly area.
My recollection of profs were 6 months of teaching (can't count exam months). 2-3 lectures per week at 1and a half hours a pop. No marking as the GAs did that for them. And very little interaction with students except for the hotties that hung around right after the lecture.
I don't work in a typical environment. I work in a cohort-based system. I travel to different places with in my state to teach for my institution. These cohorts start at random times of year, hence why I work year round and how I can teach one to two nights a week and still be considered full-time faculty.
Teaching four-hour classes, I understand the terms - "prep work".
Assessment practices weren't in place to facilitate learning. There were evaluation methods to sort and rank the students. Lastly, management was rarely an issue because each student was there because they paid dearly to be there.
Unless your style differs significantly from the overwhelming majority of my profs, don't be so quick to speak as if you know what a real teaching experience might be.
I do know what a real teaching experience might be. I teach full time, albeit in a different type of program. But, I've been teaching college courses for 8 years. I've taught classes at pretty much every single collegiate institution in the Philadelphia area, including Penn. Thanks for more condescending remarks though. You're really on your game.
Please, please refrain from bashing each other personally. This strike is a HUGE deal in Chicago, and as much attention is needed as possible, even on a band website. Lets keep this one from being locked for our own personal reasons.
So lemme get this straight. Using the stats in this thread...
Education degree is one of the easiest out there...check
Summers off, great benefits, job security...check
75k a year...check
and most quit within the first five years??????
Something doesn't add up. It probably all the overgeneralized, misconstrued, narrow, misleading, stats. Just a guess, though.
Where's this "most quit within the first five years" in Chicago stat? I missed that one.
Ok. I concede the point. I would just like to add that much of the discussion has devolved into a debate about how good or bad teachers have it across the board and that the intent of my flippant post was basically to say there's more to the stats than meets the eye in most cases. It's often unwise to judge without walking a mile in their shoes. I just find it odd that now people are getting into teaching because of the money?
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
More in the article link but here's her premise...
o what are the benefits of making teachers easier to fire?
We get rid of the worst teachers--the ones who now take years to fire. The kids they're teaching would be better off with an utter neophyte. As Noah Millman points out in the post I linked above, very bad teachers are not just a problem for their class; the effect spills over to other classrooms when those kids go from period to period, or year to year, degrading the effectiveness of the school as a whole.
We end the temptation for long-time teachers to phone it in: teach the same lesson plans over and over, give essentially the same tests, etc. Yes, there are many dedicated teachers who keep putting in 110% for decades, but it is ludicrous to suggest that this describes every single teacher in America.
We shift the selection pool from people who are more interested in decades-long job security to people who are more interested in money. Not everyone who is interested in job security wants to be able to coast--but people who want to be able to coast are likely to be very attracted to job security. Universities mitigate this effect by making it so spectacularly hard to get to the point of being a tenured professor. Primary schools don't have that option.
We end up with fewer burned-out teachers still in the classroom. If we make teaching the high-intensity, high reward job it should always be, then we're going to get people burning out.
We give teachers an incentive to do what works the best, rather than what is most satisfying for them. I warn you that if you are about to suggest that this never happens, I am going to ask you if you have ever met any human beings, and if so, whether you actually spoke to them. As Ian Ayres points out, boring-but-effective systems like direct instruction have been blocked for years by teachers because it reduces their autonomy. I grant that teachers convince themselves that they are doing this for the children. Journalists also convince themselves that they have a special right not to have their emails read the way they do to everyone else . . . and I assure you, they genuinely believe that this is a principled moral stand.
People will not invest so much in educational credentials, which are completely useless outside of schools. Since these credentials show zero impact on teacher quality, it would be better for the teachers to be studying literally anything else, including a reality television show from the couch. At least they'd get something out of that.
Laying off older, more expensive teachers is not good for those teachers . . . but it is good for the schools. It means you can achieve necessary budget cuts by laying off the fewest teachers.
Ok. I concede the point. I would just like to add that much of the discussion has devolved into a debate about how good or bad teachers have it across the board and that the intent of my flippant post was basically to say there's more to the stats than meets the eye in most cases. It's often unwise to judge without walking a mile in their shoes. I just find it odd that now people are getting into teaching because of the money?
You kind of lowered the bar a bit with your 'wahh' comment. I do respect your ability to articulate your position. I guess i should have ignored that one but, for whatever reason, i haven't liked the spirit of the majority of this thread.
I skimmed the article you posted. I am familiar with most of the arguments presented. They are reasonable. Interesting though that the writer makes the implication that if we are to tighten standards then we must be prepared to pay more.
I'll roll the dice with such a model. For 19 years now I've done my best as a teacher. With the incentive of more money, my performance wouldn't change. I'm already doing my best.
When reasonable people get stereotyped like they might in a thread such as this one, well, it's hard not to be somewhat confrontational.
With the incentive of more money, my performance wouldn't change. I'm already doing my best.
Someone mentioned that the retention of teachers is an issue. If it was performance based, and you could earn more $ than bad teachers...would that keep them in the system? I think so.
WOW! I am a teacher in Australia and I am shocked at the disrepect given to teachers on this thread. I was late to come to teaching and I love it but I can also honestly say that I have not worked o hard nor been so emotionally drained at any other job. I am simply disgusted at the terrible generalisations about teachers made here.... and I can honestly say that class size is important- in Queensland Australia, teachers are not asked (unless it is a fill gap) to teach classes larger than 28- 30.... I am pretty sure that if class sizes went to 36 that the teachers here would walk off the job as well... Yes teaching is a choice but to imply they should take second jobs is terrible. I am suprised anybody wants to be a teacher at all with the kind of attitudes expressed here.
“The human race has only one really effective weapon and that is laughter.” Mark Twain
WOW! I am a teacher in Australia and I am shocked at the disrepect given to teachers on this thread. I was late to come to teaching and I love it but I can also honestly say that I have not worked o hard nor been so emotionally drained at any other job. I am simply disgusted at the terrible generalisations about teachers made here.... and I can honestly say that class size is important- in Queensland Australia, teachers are not asked (unless it is a fill gap) to teach classes larger than 28- 30.... I am pretty sure that if class sizes went to 36 that the teachers here would walk off the job as well... Yes teaching is a choice but to imply they should take second jobs is terrible. I am suprised anybody wants to be a teacher at all with the kind of attitudes expressed here.
we say in Greece"when you are out of the dance floor,you think all songs and dancing its easy.."
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
these people create the society..these people take our kids,our nephews,our friends kids and put them out there..they create personalities,they create characters from zero,...
While I agree that teacher help....I'd say you seem to be describing parents in reality.
no,i dont..
teachers spent the same hours with kids per day as their parent..8 hours scholl,8 hours sleep 8 hours with family,nanny,grandparents..etc
teachers are very important role in kids life,grow up,and create their personality..
its not just a job that helps...for me its so inportant as serving your country..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Comments
Ummmm, they are striking, they shouldn't be criticized? Seriously, it seems like some people think teachers should be immune to everything...no need to worry about the realities of the economy, can't judge their performance because somehow they are so unique in this world...it's getting really old.
Some teachers are great. But if they believe that they cant be evaluated and they don't understand the realities of the economy...well, then they are just as wrong as those idiot teachers out there that also exist.
Could you not test a student on the first day of class, or the first day THEY attend class......(I realize in Chicago we have a huge parade and rally to remind students when class begins)
Test them on the last day of class........
Attendance would have to be monitored extremely close.....
If your student tests shitty on the first day, and tests shitty on the last day but attends school 90% of the time it should fall on the teacher and a negative mark on the evaluation.
If your student tests shitty on the first day, and tests shitty on the last day but only attends school 10% of the time it should fall on the student and no negative mark on the evaluation.
If your student tests shitty on the first day, and his/her test score improves, positive mark on the evaluation.
Now I realize this does not help the student who misses 90% of the school year, but then again are we really failing that child or are his/her parents?
She thinks this is a reality show already. She's playing with my child's future.....and it needs to stop.
How about this for evaluations?
There's mean threshold salary for every school and there's national testing based on grade delivered to each school. Teacher's pay could be dictated by their class' % above or below the school average on that testing. If their class does better than the school average, they get paid above the mean school payrate at that percentage. If they are below the school average, they get paid below the mean school payrate at that percentage. If you rank in the bottom five teachers consistently - they are warned first and if it continues they are fired.
This way - there's no way for teachers to complain about their students. The students are the same within the school. Sure, you may have a bad crop one year relative to the rest of your school, but a good crop the next. Your job is to get the most out of them you can.
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You lost me at "I'm an economist."
Well above the mean salary? The mean salary for college educated professionals, or the mean salary for everyone including 14 year olds and high school drop-outs?" Also, many teachers work during the summer, out of necessity to supplement their income, either teaching summer school, or doing something completely different. They also, generally spend time during their summer "vacation" to prepare for the coming school year. Furthermore, even if you were to only calculate a teacher's "hours" from the time they step into the classroom in the morning until the time they leave it, your "less hours than the average job" comment has me befuddled. Its offensive tripe, really. My "contracted" hours are from 8:30 to 4:30 Monday through Friday. Now, you're a brilliant economist so i'm sure you're quite good with numbers. 8 times 5 is 40 hours, Goodwill Hunting, and most teachers spend NON-contracted and unpaid time nearly every night and on the weekends. Again, relatively high wages compared to whom?! relative to what? i'm scratching my head right now. Listen, i mean no disrespect, but when the aforementioned revolution starts, i suggest locking your doors.
ahhh, you sound like my grandma. Paid lunches?
Yes, personally you think it is fine, but are you a public school teacher? If not, it's difficult to speak without experience
See above
This is a simplification. As class sizes increase, the system becomes more regressive, and the culture more degenerative, the incentive decreases. A teacher's responsibility extends far beyond educating these days. Let's not pretend this is a stress-free career.
I worked on Wall St. this summer as a commodities trader with a friend of mine who has been on Wall St. for 10 years. I think this idea of 15 hour days is an overgeneralization. I did not see any of that, and my friend, as well as other friends and family members in the industry, would also regard that as an overgeneralization.
I mean - umm... "the mean salary". As you know, mean is another word for average. In other words, the average salary in America.
As for college educated professionals, I don't know for sure. I do know that education as a major is often cited as the easiest of all majors. So, I would assume wages may reflect that, but I'm not sure. For example, the Chicago example of $75K is quite high and would probably be higher than most majors.
I know a number of highschool and grade school teachers. Some do nothing in the summer. Many of them in my area go on vacation to the beach for the summer. They do work down there as lifeguards, bartenders and whatnot and many rent their housing for the summer. I don't feel bad for them. They get to spend the entire summer at the beach, which is awesome. Basically, they do jobs that private sector workers were capable of doing when we were in college and had the availability to have off in the summer.
More power to them. I'm not saying this is something to be frowned upon. I think it's quite cool - in fact. But, and this is a big but, I don't feel sorry for them. They make an above average wage BEFORE these two month jobs. AND they can take these jobs with nothing lost. That's great.
I teach and truth be told I teach - year round - no breaks. I know how much time is necessary to "prepare for the upcoming school year" and it's not a lot. One needs to be prepared for class for sure, but the truth is teachers "could" work all year round if necessary with no or very little break to "prepare for the upcoming school year".
Goodwill Hunting? Seriously?
The logic - 40 hours a week for 9 months vs. 40-hours a week for 12 months. Even the actor that played Goodwill Hunting could do the math.
Relative to their state. Relative to the nation. They make a decent wage, an admirable wage. A relatively high wage. Stop scratching your head for a moment, and just read what I wrote.
As for the aforementioned "revolution" your referring to, I have no clue what you're talking about. And the "I mean no disrepect" line is ummm... making me scratch my head. Re-read your post. Seems like you did to me.
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1. Summers/Days worked- A teacher worth there salt will spend the first part of the Summer breaking down the classroom and taking some kind of training program to become better at the profession. Then in August they prep for the new incoming students and updated lessons. Usually July is the only full month off (still better than most jobs don't get me wrong) Those days worked are not counted in days worked. Also MOST teachers work Sundays prepping for the week ahead.
2. Hours per day. 7 hours is the time with students. Again AVERAGE teachers spend at least an hour before class and 2 hours after class prepping for the days/weeks ahead and grading papers. I would say MOST teachers work 10 hour days.
3. Parents. Parents are getting worse and worse at managing there kids education. They want to put all the blame on the teachers if a kid is getting bad grades. If you have large class sizes then you don't get to blame teachers for not having enough one on one time with struggling students. If a kid is getting bad grades its up to the parent to make sure they are getting there homework done and the kid understands it.
4. Days off during the school year. Again if the teacher is worth a damn they spend almost an extra full day of unpaid over time to prep the lessons for the substitute. So even if they get a "paid day off" they most likely worked 12 to 13 hours the day before.
I'm not denying this strike seems pointless and it seems Chicago Teachers are fairly compensated, but it URKS me when I here people rag on teachers for there time off and hours worked. If you think its such a sweet deal then become a teacher. My opinion is that if teachers made more money, more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher right out of school instead of falling back to it when there initial career flounders out (this not true of everyone but its just a personal opinion). Education in this country would much better if being a Teacher was as respected a position as a lawyer, wall st. exec, or a doctor. Especially with the 6 years of schooling that is required just like those other positions listed above.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
7/9/2006 (****1/2)
7/13/2006 (**** )
4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
I teach college. And yes, I've taught classes that large or larger.
Ok. Saw it.
I'm not saying it's stress-free. No job is stress free to my knowledge. I don't see how "the system" becomes more regressive, etc. I'll repeat what I said - the incentive to work in the field is a higher than average regional salary, months off at a time and nice lifestyle doing something one believes in. I'll throw one more factor in to, which I'm sure will be ridiculed but there's without a doubt some truth to it: education is an easy college major relative to the alternatives. That, along with the aforementioned, encourages more folks try the field. You asked for incentives. You got em'.
This is not to say teachers aren't necessary, smart or great people. They are all of the above. But, their job was "chosen". And I don't feel sorry for them.
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Well put.
I teach at a university as well (and still trade commodities on the side; quite fun!). Teaching at a university is not comparable to teaching a public middle school or high school. A college lecture of 200 is more manageable than a 9th grade classroom of 30.
Education can be an easier major than others, and I will agree with something you said in an earlier post that Economics is one of the more difficult ones, but I have a B.S. in Finance and an MA and PhD in English (a field that people say is "easy" without anything close to experience or knowledge on the subject). Granted my experience with English was at a higher level, but Finance, at least in my experience, was not more difficult. English was.
I don't think Education is any easier than Management, Marketing, Communications, Philosophy, to name a few. A lot depends on the institution.
I'm going to say something that will probably URK you more:
Sorry in advance, but...
if "more of the talented work force would pursue being a teacher" period, a large portion of the current teachers wouldn't make it into the field - they'd fail out or be bipassed for the "more talented". Once again, it's one of the easier college majors - that's a fact that a lot of folks leave out. That's not to say there aren't plenty of super-smart teachers out there who are in the field for the right reasons. I'm sure there are a ton, and these folks could beve much smarter than the smartest in other fields. It's to say - a lot of people go into the field because it's easy.
The difficulty in obtaining a master's in education is not comparable to that of a lawyer, for example. And I don't know where you live, but a doctor doesn't only require six years of college+grad work where I'm from.
Finally, I think the teacher is respected in terms of a career. I respect teachers a hell of a lot more than a lawyer. I just lose respect for them when they complain about $75K salaries, etc.
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Take it for what's its worth:
http://www.thebestcolleges.org/top-10-e ... ee-majors/
The 10 easiest college degree majors based on GPA
1. Education
2. Language
3. English
4. Music
5. Religion
6. Sociology and Anthropology
7. Art
8. History
9. Computer Science
10. Philosophy and Religious Studies
The 10 hardest college degree majors based on GPA
1. Chemistry
2. Math
3. Economics
4. Psychology
5. Biology
6. Geology
7. Philosophy
8. Geography
9. Physics
10 Political Science
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I quickly read the actual study. It's not worth much to me. As I said before, the sciences and a few other fields are more difficult, but this study is based on GPA and there are far too many variables that are left out.
And, as it says in the link you provided, a lot relies on the individual. An individual earning a degree in Eduaction can put the same number of hours and the same level of hard work into their degree as someone earning their degree in Econ.
It means ease of grades. I don't agree that these rankings are not worth anything since they reflect grades. I certainly don't think a degree in education is on par with a degree in say - chemistry or math. More people fail out.
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Most teachers don't sniff 75k...teachers in the Bay area make around 40 to 50 k for the first few years and its pretty damn expensive here. Also I said this strike seems excessive. I was making an observation how most people think teachers work the contracted days and hours and that is it. That is just wrong unless they are a very very poor teacher.
I'll say it again...I don't think the Chicago school systems should be shut down and its doing more harm than good to teachers across the country. Most teachers don't even sniff the pay these Chicago teachers complain about.
6/7/2003 (***1/2)
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4/10/2008 EV Solo (****1/2)
6/25/2008 MSG II (*****)
10/1/2009 LA II (****)
10/6/2009 LA III (***** Cornell!!!)
Education degree is one of the easiest out there...check
Summers off, great benefits, job security...check
75k a year...check
and most quit within the first five years??????
Something doesn't add up. It probably all the overgeneralized, misconstrued, narrow, misleading, stats. Just a guess, though.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
Where's this "most quit within the first five years" in Chicago stat? I missed that one.
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I posted an article from forbes earlier. You never bothered to read it.
Interesting that you say you teach year round. That would be quite different from the profs i remember in university.
My recollection of profs were 6 months of teaching (can't count exam months). 2-3 lectures per week at 1and a half hours a pop. No marking as the GAs did that for them. And very little interaction with students except for the hotties that hung around right after the lecture.
Assessment practices weren't in place to facilitate learning. There were evaluation methods to sort and rank the students. Lastly, management was rarely an issue because each student was there because they paid dearly to be there.
Unless your style differs significantly from the overwhelming majority of my profs, don't be so quick to speak as if you know what a real teaching experience might be.
Not sure if you're trying to come across like this, but seriously - just re-read what you wrote. How do you think that reads? The discussion is 20 pages long, I was involved early, than I came back in. I'm sorry I haven't read every single post. Care to re-post it?
So, first it was you were doubting my education, now you're doubting that I teach year round? :fp:
I do teach year-round. In fact, I work during the day as an economist and I teach at night. I have two full-time jobs. My position at night is paid just like the day faculty. Yet, both a day faculty position and my position makes less money than an average CPS teacher. And it's not cost of living - I live in Philly area.
I don't work in a typical environment. I work in a cohort-based system. I travel to different places with in my state to teach for my institution. These cohorts start at random times of year, hence why I work year round and how I can teach one to two nights a week and still be considered full-time faculty.
Teaching four-hour classes, I understand the terms - "prep work".
I do know what a real teaching experience might be. I teach full time, albeit in a different type of program. But, I've been teaching college courses for 8 years. I've taught classes at pretty much every single collegiate institution in the Philadelphia area, including Penn. Thanks for more condescending remarks though. You're really on your game.
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Ok. I concede the point. I would just like to add that much of the discussion has devolved into a debate about how good or bad teachers have it across the board and that the intent of my flippant post was basically to say there's more to the stats than meets the eye in most cases. It's often unwise to judge without walking a mile in their shoes. I just find it odd that now people are getting into teaching because of the money?
"With our thoughts we make the world"
http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/03/why-fire-teachers/72163/
More in the article link but here's her premise...
o what are the benefits of making teachers easier to fire?
We get rid of the worst teachers--the ones who now take years to fire. The kids they're teaching would be better off with an utter neophyte. As Noah Millman points out in the post I linked above, very bad teachers are not just a problem for their class; the effect spills over to other classrooms when those kids go from period to period, or year to year, degrading the effectiveness of the school as a whole.
We end the temptation for long-time teachers to phone it in: teach the same lesson plans over and over, give essentially the same tests, etc. Yes, there are many dedicated teachers who keep putting in 110% for decades, but it is ludicrous to suggest that this describes every single teacher in America.
We shift the selection pool from people who are more interested in decades-long job security to people who are more interested in money. Not everyone who is interested in job security wants to be able to coast--but people who want to be able to coast are likely to be very attracted to job security. Universities mitigate this effect by making it so spectacularly hard to get to the point of being a tenured professor. Primary schools don't have that option.
We end up with fewer burned-out teachers still in the classroom. If we make teaching the high-intensity, high reward job it should always be, then we're going to get people burning out.
We give teachers an incentive to do what works the best, rather than what is most satisfying for them. I warn you that if you are about to suggest that this never happens, I am going to ask you if you have ever met any human beings, and if so, whether you actually spoke to them. As Ian Ayres points out, boring-but-effective systems like direct instruction have been blocked for years by teachers because it reduces their autonomy. I grant that teachers convince themselves that they are doing this for the children. Journalists also convince themselves that they have a special right not to have their emails read the way they do to everyone else . . . and I assure you, they genuinely believe that this is a principled moral stand.
People will not invest so much in educational credentials, which are completely useless outside of schools. Since these credentials show zero impact on teacher quality, it would be better for the teachers to be studying literally anything else, including a reality television show from the couch. At least they'd get something out of that.
Laying off older, more expensive teachers is not good for those teachers . . . but it is good for the schools. It means you can achieve necessary budget cuts by laying off the fewest teachers.
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Fair enough.
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You kind of lowered the bar a bit with your 'wahh' comment. I do respect your ability to articulate your position. I guess i should have ignored that one but, for whatever reason, i haven't liked the spirit of the majority of this thread.
I skimmed the article you posted. I am familiar with most of the arguments presented. They are reasonable. Interesting though that the writer makes the implication that if we are to tighten standards then we must be prepared to pay more.
I'll roll the dice with such a model. For 19 years now I've done my best as a teacher. With the incentive of more money, my performance wouldn't change. I'm already doing my best.
When reasonable people get stereotyped like they might in a thread such as this one, well, it's hard not to be somewhat confrontational.
Have a good day.
Someone mentioned that the retention of teachers is an issue. If it was performance based, and you could earn more $ than bad teachers...would that keep them in the system? I think so.
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
teachers spent the same hours with kids per day as their parent..8 hours scholl,8 hours sleep 8 hours with family,nanny,grandparents..etc
teachers are very important role in kids life,grow up,and create their personality..
its not just a job that helps...for me its so inportant as serving your country..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”