Whats going wrong with the world? More shootings

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  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    catefrances wrote:
    guns , or firearms if you prefer, were invented way before there was ever such a thing as a police force. by their very nature they are offensive weapons. anyone who thinks they were originally invented as protection or perhaps even a deterrent is either a fool or without the knowledge required to be objective.
    who cares about the guns beginning of time story ... so irrelevant :fp:
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    chadwick wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Yours was no challenge you assumed ridiculous things ... challenge ... my arse! :lol:

    cause...
    Make (something) happen

    excuse...
    Attempt to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offense); seek to defend or justify.

    No not the same thing :fp:

    what makes you think I am excusing his behavior good lord it is empathy not condoning
    nor excusing.

    empathy...
    the ability to understand and share the feelings of another    .

    You didn't answer my questions about mental illness ...

    Have you ever known anyone close to you with schizophrenia?
    Have you seen results from the disease?
    Have you seen trauma caused by the disease?
    If this was a war vet would you accept his insanity better?


    why?

    you are saying you have the ability to understand & share the feelings of this guy with this fucking scumbag?


    please tell me you are just bullshitting all of us out of some sorta, "look at me go 10c members, look at me go after all the attention"

    i fully believe your comments are out to lunch & might should call for a swift sidelining as if a little girl was sent to the corner for acting up
    What is out to lunch is not seeing or wanting to see mental illness ...
  • dimitrispearljam
    dimitrispearljam Posts: 139,725
    pandora wrote:
    guns protect

    do we think our officers carry guns to kill? This their sole purpose

    no ...

    they carry guns to protect this is the simple fact and why most people own guns.

    By saying someone owns one because they want to kill another person is
    more than ridiculous :fp:
    no Pandora,guns shoot to kill,guns arent for carry them around for a walk in the park..
    guns take bullets that kill people...officers trained to use the guns,not buy donuts with them...
    guns kill...even the empty guns are dangerous..is the first thing i learn when i join airforce 21 years ago...
    guns,even the empty ones kill...blood,death,pain,tears..is only things u get from guns..
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  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    pandora wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    guns , or firearms if you prefer, were invented way before there was ever such a thing as a police force. by their very nature they are offensive weapons. anyone who thinks they were originally invented as protection or perhaps even a deterrent is either a fool or without the knowledge required to be objective.
    who cares about the guns beginning of time story ... so irrelevant :fp:
    not really, pand. it means you and whomever else has had guns/firearms ingrained into your skull for better or worse
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    pandora wrote:
    What is out to lunch is not seeing or wanting to see mental illness ...
    who said he was mentally ill?
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    chadwick wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    What is out to lunch is not seeing or wanting to see mental illness ...
    who said he was mentally ill?

    I think when the Gifford shooting happened you were of the same opinion,

    now that killer is a diagnosed Schizophrenic on medicine have you changed your
    mind?
  • chadwick
    chadwick up my ass Posts: 21,157
    who says this freakshow is mentally ill? where's the report?

    why can't he just be a stone cold killer? why can't he just be the guy who burst into a packed movie theater with full on intent to make his act a blood bath unlike any other seen before?

    he knew exactly what he was doing. he set bombs in his apartment building where many other innocent folks dwell because it is their home too.

    no he aint fucking mentally ill. he is smart as shit working on a ph.d in science. he is as crafty as they come. he is the farthest thing from mentally insane.
    for poetry through the ceiling. ISBN: 1 4241 8840 7

    "Hear me, my chiefs!
    I am tired; my heart is
    sick and sad. From where
    the sun stands I will fight
    no more forever."
    Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    edited July 2012
    chadwick wrote:
    who says this freakshow is mentally ill? where's the report?

    why can't he just be a stone cold killer? why can't he just be the guy who burst into a packed movie theater with full on intent to make his act a blood bath unlike any other seen before?

    he knew exactly what he was doing. he set bombs in his apartment building where many other innocent folks dwell because it is their home too.

    no he aint fucking mentally ill. he is smart as shit working on a ph.d in science. he is as crafty as they come. he is the farthest thing from mentally insane.


    you know chad ive no doubt there are killers who have suffered from mental illness but i do not believe that ALL killers suffer from mental illness. i also know that there are killers who can operate at a high degree of functionality. and so it should never be assumed all killer are nutjobs... but it would also be dangerous to think that some do not suffer from such an affliction.
    Post edited by catefrances on
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  • comebackgirl
    comebackgirl Posts: 9,885
    pandora wrote:
    comebackgirl wrote:
    It concerns me that people are jumping to the conclusion that he has a diagnosable mental illness, let alone specifically schizophrenia. I haven't heard all the reports, but thus far I haven't heard anything that confirms this. It's quite possible he committed this horror and does not have an Axis I disorder at all, or at least not a psychotic disorder. Jumping to this conclusion just adds to the stigma of those who do carry such diagnoses. He needs to have a current psych eval and any prior mental health records need to be reviewed before a diagnosis can be used in helping us have better understanding of him.
    In my opinion which everyone is doing here :lol:
    he is a victim of mental illness, but we are a blood thirsty society and putting him
    to death for this is what many people will want. I want mental health help for him
    and that he be punished, incarcerated, for what he did.

    My point is his own mother knew, people know and they have no resources to get help
    for their loved ones. Now he can get help after the fact, after killing and wounding.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner ... and now we know about him

    now there will be a page for this guy too

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/james-h ... d-16830275
    What I'm saying is that we should be cautious about casting our opinions as fact when we have limited information at this point. It's dangerous because it adds to the stigma and it can damage the investigation and prosecution. We don't know if he was a victim of mental illness. We also don't know what the mother knew. We've heard trickles of information that people are extrapolating from, but there's been nothing concrete. I absolutely agree with you that if he is in fact mentally ill he should have access to mental health treatment and punishment for his actions. I'm not debating that. Of course I'm an advocate of better access to mental health treatment! It's sort of my livelihood ;) I know it's astonishing, but most people who commit these acts are not psychotic. There is often some depression, but we know that doesn't spur this kind of violence. Often the biggest factor is a highly narcissistic person who suffers some sort of narcissistic wound (i.e. a romantic rejection, firing from a job, etc) who is devoid of empathy and wants to exact revenge. Sometimes that may be combined with a mental health diagnosis, but the mental illness is usually the lesser factor. Even though Seung-Hui Cho had some diagnosable mental illness, a narcissistic injury also seemed to be the triggering factor for him, even leaving a note stating "You made me do it." I've heard some info that points to that in this case, but I would definitely want to hear some more information before coming to any conclusion.
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    "I need your strength for me to be strong...I need your love to feel loved"
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    chadwick wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    guns , or firearms if you prefer, were invented way before there was ever such a thing as a police force. by their very nature they are offensive weapons. anyone who thinks they were originally invented as protection or perhaps even a deterrent is either a fool or without the knowledge required to be objective.
    who cares about the guns beginning of time story ... so irrelevant :fp:
    not really, pand. it means you and whomever else has had guns/firearms ingrained into your skull for better or worse
    I don't own a gun or have guns anywhere in my history I just see clearly that
    limiting guns to law abiding responsible people who have a right to protect themselves
    does not change crazy people's actions.

    If we want to do that make mental health readily available.

    And yes why a gun was invented has nothing to do with present time.
    Guns protect.

    Here in Atl story after story now of people empowered, taking back their lives,
    fighting back against crime, when they would have been just another victim of
    a criminal. A criminal with a very long rap sheet left to prey on society.

    Some people just won't take it anymore.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    another tragedy.

    http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/850372 ... shoots-son


    An off-duty US police officer accidentally shot dead his son in what appears to be a case of mistaken identity.

    Michael Leach, 59, called 911 just after midnight on July 21 and told operators he had just shot someone he thought was an intruder at the Clark Beach Motel, in New York State.

    When police arrived at the motel they discovered the man Mr Leach had shot was his 37-year-old son, Matthew Leach, local online news service Syracuse.com reports.

    The police said Mr Leach had used his department-issued handgun in the shooting.

    He was taken to a local hospital after the incident for a "medical issue".

    The shooting is being investigated
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    comebackgirl wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    comebackgirl wrote:
    It concerns me that people are jumping to the conclusion that he has a diagnosable mental illness, let alone specifically schizophrenia. I haven't heard all the reports, but thus far I haven't heard anything that confirms this. It's quite possible he committed this horror and does not have an Axis I disorder at all, or at least not a psychotic disorder. Jumping to this conclusion just adds to the stigma of those who do carry such diagnoses. He needs to have a current psych eval and any prior mental health records need to be reviewed before a diagnosis can be used in helping us have better understanding of him.
    In my opinion which everyone is doing here :lol:
    he is a victim of mental illness, but we are a blood thirsty society and putting him
    to death for this is what many people will want. I want mental health help for him
    and that he be punished, incarcerated, for what he did.

    My point is his own mother knew, people know and they have no resources to get help
    for their loved ones. Now he can get help after the fact, after killing and wounding.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner ... and now we know about him

    now there will be a page for this guy too

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/james-h ... d-16830275
    What I'm saying is that we should be cautious about casting our opinions as fact when we have limited information at this point. It's dangerous because it adds to the stigma and it can damage the investigation and prosecution. We don't know if he was a victim of mental illness. We also don't know what the mother knew. We've heard trickles of information that people are extrapolating from, but there's been nothing concrete. I absolutely agree with you that if he is in fact mentally ill he should have access to mental health treatment and punishment for his actions. I'm not debating that. Of course I'm an advocate of better access to mental health treatment! It's sort of my livelihood ;) I know it's astonishing, but most people who commit these acts are not psychotic. There is often some depression, but we know that doesn't spur this kind of violence. Often the biggest factor is a highly narcissistic person who suffers some sort of narcissistic wound (i.e. a romantic rejection, firing from a job, etc) who is devoid of empathy and wants to exact revenge. Sometimes that may be combined with a mental health diagnosis, but the mental illness is usually the lesser factor. Even though Seung-Hui Cho had some diagnosable mental illness, a narcissistic injury also seemed to be the triggering factor for him, even leaving a note stating "You made me do it." I've heard some info that points to that in this case, but I would definitely want to hear some more information before coming to any conclusion.
    Did you have this stance with Loughner too?

    My opinion is mental illness ...
    just like I thought with him. He is now a diagnosed schizophrenic under forced treatment.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    chadwick wrote:
    who says this freakshow is mentally ill? where's the report?

    why can't he just be a stone cold killer? why can't he just be the guy who burst into a packed movie theater with full on intent to make his act a blood bath unlike any other seen before?

    he knew exactly what he was doing. he set bombs in his apartment building where many other innocent folks dwell because it is their home too.

    no he aint fucking mentally ill. he is smart as shit working on a ph.d in science. he is as crafty as they come. he is the farthest thing from mentally insane.
    I think you should read about mental illness...

    and this too

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner
  • comebackgirl
    comebackgirl Posts: 9,885
    pandora wrote:
    comebackgirl wrote:
    What I'm saying is that we should be cautious about casting our opinions as fact when we have limited information at this point. It's dangerous because it adds to the stigma and it can damage the investigation and prosecution. We don't know if he was a victim of mental illness. We also don't know what the mother knew. We've heard trickles of information that people are extrapolating from, but there's been nothing concrete. I absolutely agree with you that if he is in fact mentally ill he should have access to mental health treatment and punishment for his actions. I'm not debating that. Of course I'm an advocate of better access to mental health treatment! It's sort of my livelihood ;) I know it's astonishing, but most people who commit these acts are not psychotic. There is often some depression, but we know that doesn't spur this kind of violence. Often the biggest factor is a highly narcissistic person who suffers some sort of narcissistic wound (i.e. a romantic rejection, firing from a job, etc) who is devoid of empathy and wants to exact revenge. Sometimes that may be combined with a mental health diagnosis, but the mental illness is usually the lesser factor. Even though Seung-Hui Cho had some diagnosable mental illness, a narcissistic injury also seemed to be the triggering factor for him, even leaving a note stating "You made me do it." I've heard some info that points to that in this case, but I would definitely want to hear some more information before coming to any conclusion.
    Did you have this stance with Loughner too?

    My opinion is mental illness ...
    just like I thought with him. He is now a diagnosed schizophrenic under forced treatment.
    Yes - I waited until he had a psych eval completed before jumping to any conclusions about his mental health status. It would have been irresponsible of me professionally and personally to proclaim him as mentally ill before a thorough assessment was completed. I'm glad he received a proper diagnosis and is undergoing treatment. That, however, is a rarity in these cases.
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  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    unsung wrote:
    gimmesometruth27 wrote:
    how about we make it harder for these shooters to fire so rapidly. can we not restrict the large magazines?

    if those were more difficult to get, the shooter would have to reload more often. forcing him to reload stops the rapid fire and makes the shooter vulnerable to be taken down and restrained for those several seconds.

    i am just thinking out loud here.


    I understand what you are saying, but this guy was an amateur. I can fire my rifle and reload a new mag in less than 2 seconds, and I am in no way a professional. I target practice with friends, nothing more. \

    Don't get hung up on the 100 rd mags, they are not the issue. I have one, but I have never even opened it because they really are not practical. They are pretty known for jamming and aren't the easiest things to lug around when they are fully loaded.

    What you can do has absolutely no bearing on this. If we're going to make comparisons, wasnt it true that the Giffords AZ shooter was only subdued while he was attempting to reload? yup. And there was quite a bit of debate surrounding the fact that he got off over 30 rounds, and was then subdued. Not too long before that shooting, the magazine limits by law were much smaller, but were increased to 15 or 17 I think. Smaller magazine limits almost definitely would have saved lives in the AZ shooting, and quite possibly in the Colorado shooting as well.

    I've always said, I dont want to ban guns, but there is no way we cant say that we dont have a gun problem in the USA. And i'm 100% confident that laws and/or restrictions need to be reworked.
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  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    ComeToTX wrote:
    unsung wrote:
    ComeToTX wrote:
    Right... :roll:


    Roll your eyes because you can't argue against facts, I'm good with that. If someone were willing to reveal that they had carried in don't you think they would have tried to stop this person?

    None of the carriers at the Giffords shooting did anything. Everybody is tough until the shit goes down and you are faced with putting your life on the line or getting the fuck out of there.

    I'd be shocked if nobody had a gun.

    regarding the AZ shooting of Giffords and the other folks, I remember hearing a story about a guy who was armed, but was in a nearby store. He heard the shooting and came out, but was unable to identify who was shooting, so he made a decision to not fire at anyone, but I think he saw the shooter, but was unclear. This made it more evident to me that in a shooting scenario, the majority of the time, a person who is armed is not going to know how to handle the situation,a nd their target many times will be unlcear. These things happen so fast and are a major shock. Most wont be trained or prepared for this. And, I cant even fathom what a person might have done if they were armed in the theater at this Batman premier, trying to shoot despite the tear gas, chaos, and a high powered rifle fire, at a man clad in body armor from head to toe.

    It's fun to hear people say, "oh, I'd stand up and aim for his head, or that tiny crack in his body armor between his neck and head! Oh yeah, no problem!" :lol: :eh:
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  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/20 ... -shooting/


    Godfather.
  • Godfather.
    Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    like I said earlier..gun control is bad politics.

    Godfather.
  • unsung
    unsung I stopped by on March 7 2024. First time in many years, had to update payment info. Hope all is well. Politicians suck. Bye. Posts: 9,487
    I'm laughing when people think that because he had body armor on that shooting him was futile. It'd still be like getting slugged in the chest full swing with a sledgehammer. Maybe not enough to kill him but rest assured he'd go down. It's not like he was bullet proof.

    I own many guns, never have I remotely been inclined to use them against a person. However if someone entered my house illegally and was intent on doing harm I surely would not think twice about defending my family.

    Gun-free zones don't work, they only allow someone intent on harming others the ability to go about that business without obstruction.
  • dignin
    dignin Posts: 9,478
    pandora wrote:
    comebackgirl wrote:
    pandora wrote:

    In my opinion which everyone is doing here :lol:
    he is a victim of mental illness, but we are a blood thirsty society and putting him
    to death for this is what many people will want. I want mental health help for him
    and that he be punished, incarcerated, for what he did.

    My point is his own mother knew, people know and they have no resources to get help
    for their loved ones. Now he can get help after the fact, after killing and wounding.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner ... and now we know about him

    now there will be a page for this guy too

    http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/james-h ... d-16830275
    What I'm saying is that we should be cautious about casting our opinions as fact when we have limited information at this point. It's dangerous because it adds to the stigma and it can damage the investigation and prosecution. We don't know if he was a victim of mental illness. We also don't know what the mother knew. We've heard trickles of information that people are extrapolating from, but there's been nothing concrete. I absolutely agree with you that if he is in fact mentally ill he should have access to mental health treatment and punishment for his actions. I'm not debating that. Of course I'm an advocate of better access to mental health treatment! It's sort of my livelihood ;) I know it's astonishing, but most people who commit these acts are not psychotic. There is often some depression, but we know that doesn't spur this kind of violence. Often the biggest factor is a highly narcissistic person who suffers some sort of narcissistic wound (i.e. a romantic rejection, firing from a job, etc) who is devoid of empathy and wants to exact revenge. Sometimes that may be combined with a mental health diagnosis, but the mental illness is usually the lesser factor. Even though Seung-Hui Cho had some diagnosable mental illness, a narcissistic injury also seemed to be the triggering factor for him, even leaving a note stating "You made me do it." I've heard some info that points to that in this case, but I would definitely want to hear some more information before coming to any conclusion.
    Did you have this stance with Loughner too?

    My opinion is mental illness ...
    just like I thought with him. He is now a diagnosed schizophrenic under forced treatment.

    Sounds like comebackgirl has SCIENCE and EXPERTISE to back her up Pandora, not opinion. I think you may be out of your element in this argument. Lets see what the professionals have to say after evaluation before we judge this mans state of mind.
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