Whats going wrong with the world? More shootings

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  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    pandora wrote:
    Yes he has a mental illness, victims of his shooting spree have empathy.

    It is my opinion that he is not an evil person seeking personal gratification or gain,
    it is my opinion he is sick.

    I would be broken by the fact that he was unable to get help before
    he killed and wounded. That my loved one could have been saved if only...

    I know all to well in my personal life experience that this is the cause
    for so much pain and suffering ...
    the inability to get help until after violence.

    Pandora...
    Yes he has a mental illness, victims of his shooting spree have empathy.
    Is this a yes to my question that you would have empathy for the shooter if he had killed your son in that movie theatre? In your opinion he has a mental illness and is NOT evil without a proper mental evaluation done at this time. I hope you have EXPERIENCED 100's of these cases in order to come up with such a quick opinionated decision.
    victims of his shooting spree have empathy.
    May I ask how the hell do you know this....is this ALL of the victims or just a few? Have you heard or seen interviews of the the victims to come up with yet another opinion?
    I would be broken by the fact that he was unable to get help before
    he killed and wounded. That my loved one could have been saved if only...

    I know all to well in my personal life experience that this is the cause
    for so much pain and suffering ...
    the inability to get help until after violence.

    Again, how do you know he was trying to getting help...did you read that somewhere, was that info in a previous evaluation if so please produce such an eval. I think he was far more concern about getting his ammo, guns and setting his pre-plans for this shooting spree than ever having any thoughts of getting mental help.

    So it appears what you might be saying there is that he has found relief from his apparent despair by going out planning and executing a killing spree in order to get the much needed mental help you feel he needs BEFORE a proper mental eval. That appears to be somewhat tragic and backwards but that's your opinion.

    My experience in mental illness is just a short time working at Glenside Psychiatric Hospital just outside of Boston in Jamaica, Mass. I worked in all three wards locked (much more interesting and focused place to work...a place we worked on the worst psychiatric cases) unlocked ward and thevoluntary\involuntary ward. I hope you can follow up on a few of my concerns.

    Peace
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • Fifi_IrelandFifi_Ireland Posts: 576
    I think it is easier for people to accept this type of crime if a mental illness is involved but it leads to total stigmatisation of those with mental illnesses. Most people with untreated mental illnesses are unable to help themselves get out of bed or interact with the outside world let alone plot and carry out this type of an attack in a rational way.

    I note that no one ever brings mental illness into shootings carried out in gang attacks or drive by shootings but its an automatic assumption when something like this happens it must be down to mental illness. There doesnt appear to be anything in this guys past to indicate a mental illness and the way in which the attack was plotted and carried out would seem to indicate it wasnt due to a temporary break with reality triggered by an event!

    It waits to be seen what led to this and maybe he will be found to have some form of illness, but I do believe there are just some people out there who are in fact evil. He may or may not be one of them!
    168dcfb.jpg
  • Perhaps. Then again, that innocent person who draws their weapon becomes more of a target for the psycho with four guns and armor. So, I'll just disagree because they are drawing attention to themselves and they are severely out-gunned. So, more of a chance than the unarmed person sitting next to them...maybe, maybe not.

    Well, you presume that the main attacker here has eyes on all people at all times and, as many others have already pointed out, all the while in a dark and smoke filled environment. This whole thread is filled with suppositions like this and against this but the fact remains that if someone is able to counter an attacker on a more equal playing field, that person has a better chance than one who is on a completely unlevel playing field. In my mind, if someone had a gun they would not have been completely equal, but moreso than someone who did not.
  • comebackgirlcomebackgirl Posts: 9,885
    edited July 2012
    I think it is easier for people to accept this type of crime if a mental illness is involved but it leads to total stigmatisation of those with mental illnesses. Most people with untreated mental illnesses are unable to help themselves get out of bed or interact with the outside world let alone plot and carry out this type of an attack in a rational way.

    I note that no one ever brings mental illness into shootings carried out in gang attacks or drive by shootings but its an automatic assumption when something like this happens it must be down to mental illness. There doesnt appear to be anything in this guys past to indicate a mental illness and the way in which the attack was plotted and carried out would seem to indicate it wasnt due to a temporary break with reality triggered by an event!

    It waits to be seen what led to this and maybe he will be found to have some form of illness, but I do believe there are just some people out there who are in fact evil. He may or may not be one of them!
    Very well said - and great point about other types of shootings.

    When someone is psychotic or having a break with reality, it's usually very noticeable to the people around them. Their appearance changes, they have trouble holding conversations and following through on tasks, it will come out in their writings, they often become fixated on a concern or issue, people can generally tell something seems "off." I have one student that just gets a look in her eye and her whole appearance becomes disheveled. I can tell her mental status the minute she walks in the door. In my experience professors do a pretty good job of identifying these concerns, they're often the first to notice them, and to try to connect students to services. I'm interested to see if the school has any more information on his most recent functioning. Like I said, his withdrawal from the Ph.D. program could have been evidence of his decompensation, but there's not enough information about his yet.
    Post edited by comebackgirl on
    tumblr_mg4nc33pIX1s1mie8o1_400.gif

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  • FrankieGFrankieG Abingdon MD Posts: 9,100
    I dindn't read most of this thread, but I think it's worth noting that the present day media has allowed the exposure of these types of events to be heard around the world. If shootings happened 100 years ago, only a certain group of people would know about it. It seems like it's more prevailant now, but that just might be because we all hear about every single case.

    It is very sad and when I heard about it i was very rattled..
    2003: 7/14 NJ ... 2006: 6/1 NJ, 6/3 NJ ... 2007: 8/5 IL ... 2008: 6/24 NY, 6/25 NY, 8/7 EV NJ ... 2009: 10/27 PA, 10/28 PA, 10/30 PA, 10/31 PA
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  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219

    Well, you presume that the main attacker here has eyes on all people at all times and, as many others have already pointed out, all the while in a dark and smoke filled environment. This whole thread is filled with suppositions like this and against this but the fact remains that if someone is able to counter an attacker on a more equal playing field, that person has a better chance than one who is on a completely unlevel playing field. In my mind, if someone had a gun they would not have been completely equal, but moreso than someone who did not.

    I get that, and it makes sense to a degree. but when assessing the factors (tear gas, chaos, four guns and body armor) involved in this shooting, I think more people with guns could've been a bad recipe..but you're right, these are all just guesses, so it doesn't really matter.

    I just think there are many other factors (the problems and motives) that could be looked at before we throw MORE guns into the equation. For example: he bought an AR-15 rifle, which had been outlawed under the assault weapon ban in 1994. But that prohibition expired in 2004 and Congress, in a nod to the political clout of gun enthusiasts, did not renew it.
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  • ComeToTXComeToTX Austin Posts: 7,878
    Even if this guy was mentally ill he would have to choose to get help. He attended multiple universities that I'm pretty sure offered some type of free health care for students. You can't make people seek help so it would be nice to keep them away from anything that can kill 100 people in a matter of minutes and be purchased legally.
    This show, another show, a show here and a show there.
  • PJ_SoulPJ_Soul Vancouver, BC Posts: 50,032
    pandora wrote:
    I'll take a s tab at it.


    Have you ever known anyone close to you with schizophrenia?
    Have you seen results from the disease?
    Have you seen trauma caused by the disease?
    If this was a war vet would you accept his insanity better?


    Yes, my uncle.
    Yes, he was sick with that disease and never.hurt anyone physically, even while off medication.
    Yes, obviously, his family was traumatized constantantly by the fact that he had this disease.
    No, why in the hell would a vet with schizophrenia vs a non-vet with schizophrenia make a difference? You're not talking about ptsd here (plus a vet would never be a schizophrenic, the military doesn't allow it and would know).

    Most importantly, why ate you talking about schizophrenia??? There is no indication whatsoever that he has this disease. Schizophrenic people are not lucid enough during times of mania to plan what he did. You have no idea what his motives were, but I can pretty much guarantee you that he didn't have schizophrenia.

    I'd just like to inform you that plenty of people here have as much or more knowledge.of and experience with mental illness than you do, and really wish you would stop acting like you know something tha others don't. All you have that others don't here is blinders on, as per usual.
    With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. ~ Desiderata
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    In the wake of Aurora’s tragic ‘Dark Knight Rises' screening massacre, the entertainment industry has been abuzz with speculation and concern about the safety of moviegoers and how this could impact the theater industry long-term.

    Stephen Galloway, The Hollywood Reporter’s Executive Features Editor, tells FOX411’s Pop Tarts column that incident will likely cause theater owners to debate stepping up security – which would in turn impact ticket prices, and that in turn could affect movie theater stock.

    Meanwhile, Thelma Adams, Yahoo! Movies contributing editor questioned why all cinema guests can’t be “bag-checked and wanded” the same way critics and the press are prior to advanced screenings.

    But such measures come at a cost, and Hollywood movie producer Mark Joseph is not convinced that cinema patrons will be willing to pay even more to see a movie, even if that does translate to an added feeling of security.

    “You can never guarantee safety and movie tickets are already too high,” he said. “There will be efforts to ban costumes, check bags and increase security but in three months it will be back to normal.”

    However, leading crisis management expert, Gene Grabowski of Levick Strategic Communications, argues that the latest tragedy will have a permanent effect on the once simple adventure of going to the theater.

    “Parents are very concerned that their children are being frightened by news reports and so business will likely drop of for a while,” he explained. “Many theaters, especially those showing movies with violence, will be equipped with metal detectors. The major theater chains will certainly enforce these restrictions across the country in order to protect against copycat incidents and to protect against lawsuits.”

    And it seems truly passionate, costume-wearing movie goers will have their cinema experience taken down a notch with the possible enforcement of a long-term no-costume policy, given that shooting suspect James Holmes reportedly wore an elaborate assassin-like outfit complete with a ballistic helmet and gas mask to the screening. He also dyed his hair red and later referred to himself as “The Joker” when taken into custody.

    “We will not allow any guests into our theaters in costumes that make other guests feel uncomfortable and we will not permit face-covering masks or fake weapons inside our buildings,” Ryan Noonan, AMC Director of Public Relations, said in a statement. “If you don’t like it, they will give you a refund.”

    The representative also noted that the prominent cinema chain had no plans to alter its show schedules, but are working with local law enforcement agencies, landlords and local security teams nationwide to “provide the safest environment possible for guests,” and a spokesperson for the National Association of Theater Owners concurred that members were in the process of reviewing security procedures.

    “It’s not unlike the ramped-up security in schools across the country after Columbine, and the increase of security at airports after 9/11. It’s just what needs to be done right now,” Jami Philbrick, Managing Editor of movie news site iamRogue.com. “The effect this all has on the theater industry is the true question. With the advent of HD TVs, Blu-ray, Netflix and especially VOD, the theater industry was already in trouble … and this could make it worse.”

    However, veteran Hollywood entertainment and pop culture reporter Scott Huver, said too many stringent changes could turn away patrons in the long-term and that clearly wouldn’t be good for the industry. “

    As a nation we must be careful before being too reactionary and implementing measures that do more to impinge our personal freedoms than they do to ensure public safety,” he added. “Some things as fast and simple as a bag and coat check might be an acceptable price that patrons are willing to pay to feel more secure, but ultimately moviegoers may be more likely to accept that sometimes the bad things that occur are beyond reason and control, and attempts to guard against them aren’t worth the cost of every day liberties.”



    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/20 ... z21T4cqE9o
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    dignin wrote:

    Sounds like comebackgirl has SCIENCE and EXPERTISE to back her up Pandora, not opinion. I think you may be out of your element in this argument. Lets see what the professionals have to say after evaluation before we judge this mans state of mind.
    I am a layman giving my opinion based on life experience ...
    never claimed anything different. Gee ... it's what most here are doing.

    Our experience as a society is telling many of us that this man has mental problems,
    just heard an expert on radio news saying the exact same. I guess that woman has expertise,
    science and experience enough to give an opinion other than let's wait and see.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    PJ_Soul wrote:
    Yes, my uncle.
    Yes, he was sick with that disease and never.hurt anyone physically, even while off medication.
    Yes, obviously, his family was traumatized constantantly by the fact that he had this disease.
    No, why in the hell would a vet with schizophrenia vs a non-vet with schizophrenia make a difference? You're not talking about ptsd here (plus a vet would never be a schizophrenic, the military doesn't allow it and would know).

    Most importantly, why ate you talking about schizophrenia??? There is no indication whatsoever that he has this disease. Schizophrenic people are not lucid enough during times of mania to plan what he did. You have no idea what his motives were, but I can pretty much guarantee you that he didn't have schizophrenia.

    I'd just like to inform you that plenty of people here have as much or more knowledge.of and experience with mental illness than you do, and really wish you would stop acting like you know something tha others don't. All you have that others don't here is blinders on, as per usual.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner this guy was ....
    he is now a diagnosed schizophrenic on forced treatments.
    But back when he did his shooting spree this was not known and no treatment for him.

    Schizophrenia presents in many ways for you to make a comment like the red bolded well
    that is just not true.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Because I see how you operate. You're over on the Trayvon Martin thread doing the same thing- championing for the criminal... making them out to be the victim.

    I've already said my piece in this discussion and anytime I add something to it... you go back and speak of something I've clarified for you (ie. 'semantics' with cause and excuse). I get the feeling you like to do a lot of talking and not a lot of listening.

    By the way... great use of the head slapping emoticon. Again, a veiled method to hoist yourself above people without actually coming out and saying, "Oh dear. Tsk. Why do I even bother with you simple people?"

    I don't think you've read many of my posts if you think I side with criminals...
    just another assumption.

    The thread you speak of there are very few posts of mine there.
    I have not followed the case and have not sided with either the victim or the shooter.
  • KatKat Posts: 4,911
    This violence and tragedy is extremely upsetting. It's difficult to discuss a topic like this without becoming emotional but the Posting Guidelines are not suspended for difficult topics. If you find that you cannot discuss the event and topic without making personal comments at other Ten Club members here, please do not post. Limiting yourself to reading might be the way to go.

    Speculation and assumptions are also understandable as people try to understand why the hell this happened. Remember that when you're discussing please.

    Also, take any personal bickering to PM. It's another violation of the Posting Guidelines to post it. :nono: It's a requirement to show respect to each other in your posts here.

    Thanks.
    Now, my personal opinion...I always felt that someone who takes another life, unless it's self-defense or they're ordered to while in the service, is mentally unbalanced in some way. I have no idea what the precise diagnosis might be and it's probably different from case to case but normal humans don't kill each other. Simplistic? Maybe but it serves me well. Have a good week everyone and since the news is going to be on this topic constantly for a while, it might be good to not watch as much...just get updates, you know? I believe the horror of it does have an effect if watched too much.
    Falling down,...not staying down
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    ComeToTX wrote:
    Even if this guy was mentally ill he would have to choose to get help. He attended multiple universities that I'm pretty sure offered some type of free health care for students. You can't make people seek help so it would be nice to keep them away from anything that can kill 100 people in a matter of minutes and be purchased legally.
    The nature alone of many mental illnesses keep victims from seeking help.

    But loved ones can often help if there are means to do so, most especially financial.
    But until violence happens towards another or towards themselves
    it is very hard to get someone help and the financial expense makes it impossible for most.
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    Kat wrote:
    Have a good week everyone and since the news is going to be on this topic constantly for a while, it might be good to not watch as much...just get updates, you know? I believe the horror of it does have an effect if watched too much.

    agreed...i'll just stick to twitter updates etc...i can't handle getting into this guy's life...since it's not gonna change a thing

    and kat, let's remind everyone about the foe feature...doesn't help when someone is quoted but it helps :)
  • g under pg under p Surfing The far side of THE Sombrero Galaxy Posts: 18,200
    norm wrote:

    agreed...i'll just stick to twitter updates etc...i can't handle getting into this guy's life...since it's not gonna change a thing

    and kat, let's remind everyone about the foe feature...doesn't help when someone is quoted but it helps :)

    Norm, what's the foe feature.....it appears I may have a few of those? :D

    Peace everybody.
    *We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti

    *MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
    .....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti

    *The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)


  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    g under p wrote:

    Norm, what's the foe feature.....it appears I may have a few of those? :D

    Peace everybody.

    click on the person's profile...at the top in the middle there are 2 options...add as friend and add as foe
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam Posts: 139,721
    norm wrote:
    click on the person's profile...at the top in the middle there are 2 options...add as friend and add as foe
    thats why i cant read u Tim?i foe you??

    no way..u are my favo around here..u are a friend... :D
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    pandora wrote:
    The nature alone of many mental illnesses keep victims from seeking help.

    But loved ones can often help if there are means to do so, most especially financial.
    But until violence happens towards another or towards themselves
    it is very hard to get someone help and the financial expense makes it impossible for most.

    And its hard to identify sometimes, I'll bet. and if family is able to identify a person is instable, I'm sure they're often in denial about it too. However, CometoTX makes a point...maybe a canon like this AR-15 shouldnt be available to just anyone. Did you see my quote up above about the fact that the USA is unique in that we allow our civilians access to military grade weapons in some instances?
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  • dustinparduedustinpardue Las Vegas, NV Posts: 1,829
    know1 wrote:

    This is what I think.

    Exactly. This idea was also the conclusion of the Bowling for Columbine documentary
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  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    FrankieG wrote:
    I dindn't read most of this thread, but I think it's worth noting that the present day media has allowed the exposure of these types of events to be heard around the world. If shootings happened 100 years ago, only a certain group of people would know about it. It seems like it's more prevailant now, but that just might be because we all hear about every single case.

    It is very sad and when I heard about it i was very rattled..
    I agree with what you're saying here about the exposure in the media. It is terrible, and it is indeed a tragedy..but the way it has been on television makes me inclined to compare it to 9/11 (insofar as the constant bombardment from news media). In regards to his mental status, anything about that at this point (as others have said) is speculation. Of course, to a layperson, he's 'crazy'. To just throw that around, though, without a diagnosis is still speculation (and again, as others have mentioned, perpetuates the stigma surrounding mental illness). However, this being said, it was obvious that it was going to be the defense argument from minute 1.
  • normnorm Posts: 31,146
    thats why i cant read u Tim?i foe you??

    no way..u are my favo around here..u are a friend... :D

    :lol: :wave:

    sadly i had to use this feature...haven't had to do it since the old board
  • JonnyPistachioJonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    I thought this was an interesting read on mass murder and powerful weapons:

    http://us.cnn.com/2012/07/23/opinion/we ... hpt=hp_bn7
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • CosmoCosmo Posts: 12,225
    From my observations regarding this tragedy... and from reading the comments regarding as such... some people CRAVE/NEED attention, regardless of the cost.
    Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
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  • hedonisthedonist Posts: 24,524
    i foe you??
    Well now...this made me smile in the midst of such heaviness :)
  • KatKat Posts: 4,911
    g under p wrote:

    Norm, what's the foe feature.....it appears I may have a few of those? :D

    Peace everybody.

    It's an Ignore List kind of thing. You can add someone's name to it if you feel their posts are ones that you just don't want to read anymore because they make you forget the Posting Guidelines. It's a good idea for the ol' BP too. I post on a board other than this one and I use it so my experience is better. It's up to the individual and if it's something that can help, it's a tool that's available.
    Falling down,...not staying down
  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    Cosmo wrote:
    From my observations regarding this tragedy... and from reading the comments regarding as such... some people CRAVE/NEED attention, regardless of the cost.
    Bottom line, yes, I think so as well to an extent. Furthermore, he is reveling in it, all things considered.
  • dimitrispearljamdimitrispearljam Posts: 139,721
    hedonist wrote:
    Well now...this made me smile in the midst of such heaviness :)
    just found the next line for why now u dont bitching thread :P
    and yes..this is to much that happed..its really really sad
    "...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
    "..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
    “..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
  • EmBleveEmBleve Posts: 3,019
    I'm interested to see if the school has any more information on his most recent functioning. Like I said, his withdrawal from the Ph.D. program could have been evidence of his decompensation, but there's not enough information about his yet.
    My thoughts exactly.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    g under p wrote:

    Pandora... Is this a yes to my question that you would have empathy for the shooter if he had killed your son in that movie theatre? In your opinion he has a mental illness and is NOT evil without a proper mental evaluation done at this time. I hope you have EXPERIENCED 100's of these cases in order to come up with such a quick opinionated decision.
    May I ask how the hell do you know this....is this ALL of the victims or just a few? Have you heard or seen interviews of the the victims to come up with yet another opinion?

    Again, how do you know he was trying to getting help...did you read that somewhere, was that info in a previous evaluation if so please produce such an eval. I think he was far more concern about getting his ammo, guns and setting his pre-plans for this shooting spree than ever having any thoughts of getting mental help.

    So it appears what you might be saying there is that he has found relief from his apparent despair by going out planning and executing a killing spree in order to get the much needed mental help you feel he needs BEFORE a proper mental eval. That appears to be somewhat tragic and backwards but that's your opinion.

    My experience in mental illness is just a short time working at Glenside Psychiatric Hospital just outside of Boston in Jamaica, Mass. I worked in all three wards locked (much more interesting and focused place to work...a place we worked on the worst psychiatric cases) unlocked ward and thevoluntary\involuntary ward. I hope you can follow up on a few of my concerns.

    Peace

    How do you get from my words that he was seeking help?

    I have heard his victims say they have empathy for him...
    some of his victims of course not all :? and yes on TV interviews.

    And no I am not saying he found relief in his actions, quite the opposite.

    After working in a facility one would think you would have more knowledge
    of mental illness and not apply logic to a victim of disease
    who is not living in a real and logical world like the rest of us.
This discussion has been closed.