Whats going wrong with the world? More shootings

dimitrispearljam

comebackgirl wrote:

inmytree wrote:

comebackgirl wrote:

It's quite possible he committed this horror and does not have an Axis I disorder at all, or at least not a psychotic disorder.

possible...

but Highly unlikely....

emphasis on the Highly....

He planned this out for months. That's not indicative of someone who had a psychotic break. In most of these situations the shooter is not mentally ill. They may have an Axis II disorder, but typically they're not psychotic. Seung-Hui Cho did have a diagnosable mental illness, and was on VA Tech's radar because of his writings and coming to the attention of their counseling center. It's possible Holmes may have decompensated quickly, but I really want to wait for a psych eval before jumping to any conclusions. People who are actively psychotic don't generally do a good job of hiding it. It's hard to believe that someone could do something this horrific and not be mentally ill, but that is often the case.

this..

catefrances

unsung wrote:

Seriously when are you anti-gun goofs gonna get it? CHICAGO has the STRICTEST gun laws in the country and there are more deaths by shooting there than our troops in Afghanistan lately.

Gun control simply does not work. "Gun-free" zones only create an opportunity for a murderer to apply his problems to others unhindered.

gun control works here in australia. does that mean weve not had any shootings since the hammer came down? no it doesnt. but what also hasnt happened is another massacre or anything close to it since 1996. its really not rocket science ...deny people access to firearms and the opportunity to execute a massacre is greatly diminished. but having said that australia doesnt, and never has had, the gun culture the united states has.

Godfather.

and a gun was not used...but a few laws were broken for sure,in any tragic and sad.

Godfather.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/23/10 ... latestnews

pandora

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Pandora,

I re-read my posts... and I have not found anything in them that looks like a personal attack on you as a person (other than a reference to one of your posts where you make a veiled attempt at dignifying yourself as 'slightly more enlightened' than those of us who do not share the same level of compassion for the offender).

I referred to your timing, your position, and made a small tongue-in-cheek comment about your formatting (you made a similar comment earlier with your 'big letters' comment to Jose... so I had assumed comments such as these would be fair for all. No?).

Excuse- Cause... It's the same thing. Don't get stuck on semantics. A pre-meditated murder on a large scale would obviously suggest that there's something wrong with this guy... but who cares what underlying cause it might be- this act is flat out inexcusable. Not worthy of pity.

"So far off target?" No. No, I think I'm bang on here, but I won't pat myself on the back. It's pretty easy to be on target with this sad case. Regardless, as I said in my previous post... you're welcome to feel any way you want- it's your right; however, if you make an opinon public on this forum and others like it... you should be prepared to be challenged on some of the things you say.

Yours was no challenge you assumed ridiculous things ... challenge ... my arse!

cause...
Make (something) happen

excuse...
Attempt to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offense); seek to defend or justify.

No not the same thing :fp:

what makes you think I am excusing his behavior good lord it is empathy not condoning
nor excusing.

empathy...
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

You didn't answer my questions about mental illness ...

Have you ever known anyone close to you with schizophrenia?
Have you seen results from the disease?
Have you seen trauma caused by the disease?
If this was a war vet would you accept his insanity better?


why?

catefrances

Godfather. wrote:

and a gun was not used...but a few laws were broken for sure,in any tragic and sad.

Godfather.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/23/10 ... latestnews

and your point is... we should ban the overcrowding of vehicles??? im sure there are already laws in place to deal with that. or is it fools you want to be banning???

pandora

comebackgirl wrote:

pandora wrote:

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

You've personalized my comment. I never stated that I felt you were not outraged at loss of life. I assumed nothing of you other than you spoke of your position as, say, 'a little richer' than mine. As well, I suggested that your position might be better received at a different time when the wounds were at least a little dry.

I referred to your argument that this man's mental illness was an acceptable alibi for his actions and presented some other examples that would at the very least appear to be very close to this way of thinking- these scenarios had nothing to do with what I assumed of you. You missed this point though and that, I would suggest, is not great debating form.

Let's get honest here, it's not exactly as if you take the high road on every occasion: earlier you poked fun at someone for their large letters.

You're on an island here... and you had to know you would be. How are you going to convince anyone that we should empathize with this guy? No problems here though. You are welcome to your position.

Thirty Bills Unpaid wrote:

Good lord. Yah, we're all a bunch of clods with cold hearts incapable of love- definitely below you and that one other person on this thread.

We understand mental illness. Duh. We just don't give a shit. Ill, drunk, mad, sad... whatever has a person move to large scale violence places them in the category of: 'piece of shit'.

In a similar vein, your argument would absolve the alcoholic from mowing down a mother and child at a crosswalk ("You guys are stupid. Don't you understand alcoholism? He's sober now. ")... or Sandusky ("He was sick. He's gotten therapy to assist him overcome his poor past.")... or the junkie who stabs an old lady and takes her purse with $7 in it ("What's with you guys? Don't you understand addiction. He was in pain and needed a fix. He's better now.")... you can excuse every horrible action if you really wanted to. I'll go on no further other than to state it is the bleeding hearts that allow for levels of patience and understanding that, quite frankly, mainstream society is completely exhausted with.

Your position is a strange one to take. People are outraged. Very very angry and sad. Your insistence that this mutant is the real victim here borders on offensive. Very little tact displayed here, Pandora. It's my feel that your comments are in very poor taste.

And, can you stop entering after every sentence? I keep thinking I'm reading a poem when I read your posts.

No you personalized and made your post all about me
and it was insulting, incredibly judgmental and presumptuous besides being so far off target
and against posting guidelines.

There are many, even some victims of this heinous crime, that have empathy for him
because of mental illness.

Have you ever known anyone close to you with schizophrenia?
Have you seen results from the disease?
Have you seen trauma caused by the disease?
If this was a war vet would you accept his insanity better?

And for some one who said excuse... no it is not an excuse it is the cause.

It concerns me that people are jumping to the conclusion that he has a diagnosable mental illness, let alone specifically schizophrenia. I haven't heard all the reports, but thus far I haven't heard anything that confirms this. It's quite possible he committed this horror and does not have an Axis I disorder at all, or at least not a psychotic disorder. Jumping to this conclusion just adds to the stigma of those who do carry such diagnoses. He needs to have a current psych eval and any prior mental health records need to be reviewed before a diagnosis can be used in helping us have better understanding of him.

In my opinion which everyone is doing here
he is a victim of mental illness, but we are a blood thirsty society and putting him
to death for this is what many people will want. I want mental health help for him
and that he be punished, incarcerated, for what he did.

My point is his own mother knew, people know and they have no resources to get help
for their loved ones. Now he can get help after the fact, after killing and wounding.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jared_Lee_Loughner ... and now we know about him

now there will be a page for this guy too

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/james-h ... d-16830275

Godfather.

catefrances wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

and a gun was not used...but a few laws were broken for sure,in any tragic and sad.

Godfather.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/23/10 ... latestnews

and your point is... we should ban the overcrowding of vehicles??? im sure there are already laws in place to deal with that. or is it fools you want to be banning???

yes ban fools and leave gun laws alone,fools kill people a gun or a truck is just a tool for the crime.

Godfather.

cincybearcat

pandora wrote:

he is a victim of mental illness,

Oh the poor guy, I feel sorry for him now. :fp:

pandora

g under p wrote:

pandora wrote:

Thank you very much I will compose my posts as I see fit
you are free of course to not read them if you find them that troubling.

A poem can always do a heart well I might add.

So you conclude I am not outraged at the loss of life...
that I am not sad and angry... how do you come to this conclusion?

is this because I can also show empathy for the person committing the crime?

It is unusual for me to do so but it is so very obvious he himself is a victim also.

I think your presumptions of me and what I think of child molesters,
DUI's or criminals preying on other human beings for their own gain,
are very telling of you.
Is seems you are assuming much of me with knowing little, wouldn't you say?
Not really good debate form... assuming of others.

You would be so very wrong in all cases / examples you have given.

Good for you that you can show empathy, you appear to have a very big heart. My question to you Pandora would be....would you show the same empathy if your grandchild or son or husband was in that theatre and was killed by this shooter?

Peace

Yes he has a mental illness, victims of his shooting spree have empathy.

It is my opinion that he is not an evil person seeking personal gratification or gain,
it is my opinion he is sick.

I would be broken by the fact that he was unable to get help before
he killed and wounded. That my loved one could have been saved if only...

I know all to well in my personal life experience that this is the cause
for so much pain and suffering ...
the inability to get help until after violence.

pandora

cincybearcat wrote:

pandora wrote:

he is a victim of mental illness,

Oh the poor guy, I feel sorry for him now. :fp:

Have you ever known anyone close to you with schizophrenia?
Have you seen results from the disease?
Have you seen trauma caused by the disease?
If this was a war vet would you accept his insanity better?

it is not feeling sorry it is not pity it is empathy and understanding drawn
from personal life experience.

catefrances

Godfather. wrote:

catefrances wrote:

Godfather. wrote:

and a gun was not used...but a few laws were broken for sure,in any tragic and sad.

Godfather.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/23/10 ... latestnews

and your point is... we should ban the overcrowding of vehicles??? im sure there are already laws in place to deal with that. or is it fools you want to be banning???

yes ban fools and leave gun laws alone,fools kill people a gun or a truck is just a tool for the crime.

Godfather.

ban fools and im afraid there will be hardly anyone left on the 'right side' of the law.

everything can be utilised as a tool for crime. the wine glass im drinking from now can be used to inflict injury upon someone. its purpose is for drinking and yet it has other uses. a gun has only one purpose... and that is to kill... that is why they were invented... its the only reason they were invented. i understand that americans have a right to be armed but humans are flawed creatures and cant be relied upon to act in their own best interests, let alone that of others. you tell them they can do something or have possession of something and they will squeeze the life out of it to demand their rights. and have no doubt that they cut off their nose to spite their face.

pandora

guns are to protect ... those choosing to own guns, have one in the home, carry on their person
do so to protect themselves and others ...


not to kill :fp:

cincybearcat

pandora wrote:

guns are to protect ... those choosing to own guns, have one in the home, carry on their person
do so to protect themselves and others ...


not to kill :fp:

Unless of course they are mentally ill. Then they should still be allowed to have their guns and we need to determine how and why as a society we failed them and caused them kill. That way, we never have to hold the killers accountable for their actions and we can never realize that there is no one in this country that needs that many guns and ammo. So, everything is puppy dogs and rainbows. Oh and guns and ammo.

Guns are made to kill, that is their sole purpose.

catefrances

cincybearcat wrote:

pandora wrote:

guns are to protect ... those choosing to own guns, have one in the home, carry on their person
do so to protect themselves and others ...


not to kill :fp:

Unless of course they are mentally ill. Then they should still be allowed to have their guns and we need to determine how and why as a society we failed them and caused them kill. That way, we never have to hold the killers accountable for their actions and we can never realize that there is no one in this country that needs that many guns and ammo. So, everything is puppy dogs and rainbows. Oh and guns and ammo.

Guns are made to kill, that is their sole purpose.

exactly. guns were invented as a more efficient way of killing. this is a fact.

pandora

cincybearcat wrote:

pandora wrote:

guns are to protect ... those choosing to own guns, have one in the home, carry on their person
do so to protect themselves and others ...


not to kill :fp:

Unless of course they are mentally ill. Then they should still be allowed to have their guns and we need to determine how and why as a society we failed them and caused them kill. That way, we never have to hold the killers accountable for their actions and we can never realize that there is no one in this country that needs that many guns and ammo. So, everything is puppy dogs and rainbows. Oh and guns and ammo.

Guns are made to kill, that is their sole purpose.

what is holding them accountable?

prison time?

that is what they get and finally get mental health help after the fact.

This horrible incident should bring change for those who need mental health help,
not take guns away from responsible gun owners.

Changing gun laws does not fix crazy and there are plenty of illegal guns
to go around for those that are.

dimitrispearljam

cincybearcat wrote:

Guns are made to kill, that is their sole purpose.

catefrances wrote:

exactly. guns were invented as a more efficient way of killing. this is a fact.

+1..
you dont have to be Einstain to understand this simple thing...

catefrances

dimitrispearljam wrote:

cincybearcat wrote:

Guns are made to kill, that is their sole purpose.

catefrances wrote:

exactly. guns were invented as a more efficient way of killing. this is a fact.

+1..
you dont have to be Einstain to understand this simple thing...

and yet some seem offended by such a simple fact. *shrug*

pandora

guns protect

do we think our officers carry guns to kill? This their sole purpose

no ...

they carry guns to protect this is the simple fact and why most people own guns.

By saying someone owns one because they want to kill another person is
more than ridiculous :fp:

catefrances

guns , or firearms if you prefer, were invented way before there was ever such a thing as a police force. by their very nature they are offensive weapons. anyone who thinks they were originally invented as protection or perhaps even a deterrent is either a fool or without the knowledge required to be objective.

chadwick

pandora wrote:

Yours was no challenge you assumed ridiculous things ... challenge ... my arse!

cause...
Make (something) happen

excuse...
Attempt to lessen the blame attaching to (a fault or offense); seek to defend or justify.

No not the same thing :fp:

what makes you think I am excusing his behavior good lord it is empathy not condoning
nor excusing.

empathy...
the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

You didn't answer my questions about mental illness ...

Have you ever known anyone close to you with schizophrenia?
Have you seen results from the disease?
Have you seen trauma caused by the disease?
If this was a war vet would you accept his insanity better?


why?

you are saying you have the ability to understand & share the feelings of this guy with this fucking scumbag?


please tell me you are just bullshitting all of us out of some sorta, "look at me go 10c members, look at me go after all the attention"

i fully believe your comments are out to lunch & might should call for a swift sidelining as if a little girl was sent to the corner for acting up