Why do we need to "believe" in God?

Cosmo

know1 wrote:

To the original question, I do not feel a need to believe in God. Basically, I can barely see how someone could NOT believe in God when I look around at the world, universe, our brains, etc. So it's not a need, but rather an observation that God is real.

...
That a good assessment. God was used to explain the natural world. Ancient civilizations created gods that caused the sun to rise and set, gods that controlled the rain... controlled the waters... governed over the dead. Those things change as Man figured out that the sun doesn't rise and set... we perceive it to rise and set from our vantage point on a spinning sphere, orbiting a star. We no longer need Ra, the Sun god who rides a firey chariot across the sky.
Modern man has not answered all of the questions and has the ability to explain everything in out natural world... or our own existance. We search for answers, knowing that the possiblre answer is, there is no answer.
God ends up being a relatively simple answer to why an innocent 8 year old girl is so brutally murdered and the man (dicator) who ordered the genocide live is a palace. The answer that some will provide is, 'God works in mysterious ways'.
Man needs God to provide some sort of order in a Universe of chaos.

Shawshank

newy777 wrote:

catefrances wrote:

i totally agree that there are some things we may never know. my big question is how do the animals know to develop camouflage.. how does that happen? i understand their need to, i just dont understand how theyre bodies know, you know???

Animals don´t know how to develop camouflage. Evolution which takes place over millions of years as a result will lead to the changes in the animal(in this case camouflage). Natural selection will make the slightly more camouflaged animals ,slightly more likely to survive in order to reproduce and their offspring will have similar attributes which will continue down the line.

I agree to an extent, but color changes are genetic variations that are bred out. Just like someone might try to use the argument that humans have been getting taller over the last 200 years because of evolution. In actuality, it's just a variation of our genetics that became dominate as taller people became a larger part of the population and produced offspring that were inherently taller. Just like a brown rabbit in a cold region may have mated with a beige rabbit, producing progressively lighter offspring that were able to remain hidden and therefore they were able to survive, until the final variation was white.

When you get in to true evolution, it goes beyond genetic variations, and encompasses actual mutations. Mutations that have specific functions, or mutations that take a function away. Like I used in my example with bees. They didn't always have stingers...so what caused the mutation to form one? What changed the programming within the DNA to produce that appendage that has such a specific function? On top of that, as the mammal population became more and more prevalent, what caused a barbed stinger to be formed? You can't have evolution, true evolution, without intelligence. It's like having a car with no driver...you need someone to guide it and steer it from point A to point B.

Cosmo

Shawshank wrote:

I agree to an extent, but color changes are genetic variations that are bred out. Just like someone might try to use the argument that humans have been getting taller over the last 200 years because of evolution. In actuality, it's just a variation of our genetics that became dominate as taller people became a larger part of the population and produced offspring that were inherently taller. Just like a brown rabbit in a cold region may have mated with a beige rabbit, producing progressively lighter offspring that were able to remain hidden and therefore they were able to survive, until the final variation was white.

When you get in to true evolution, it goes beyond genetic variations, and encompasses actual mutations. Mutations that have specific functions, or mutations that take a function away. Like I used in my example with bees. They didn't always have stingers...so what caused the mutation to form one? What changed the programming within the DNA to produce that appendage that has such a specific function? On top of that, as the mammal population became more and more prevalent, what caused a barbed stinger to be formed? You can't have evolution, true evolution, without intelligence. It's like having a car with no driver...you need someone to guide it and steer it from point A to point B.

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The driving force? Life. Life strives to endure... even in the harshes of conditions and environments, we find life.
Bees developed stingers to defend the hive from the same structure that allows for egg laying. Not all of the bees have stingers... soldiers and workers have stingers, drones do not. Just like the flagella bacterium converted a stinger into a propelling tail.
Camoflage in animal fur is all about survival. A white mouse in a brown field will get eaten by hawks and not pass on his genes... same as the brown mouse forreging in the snow.

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

good idea you have there, works for me
I would say telling others they can not know God is not being respectful to their beliefs, not at all.
I can only hope people find what they are in search of or not as I have said before.

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Look... if you believe you are in the extremely exclusive company of Biblical Moses and Jesus Christ... who am I to say otherwise, right? Why would you care what anyone else says or believes? That is my point. You can have your own religion, in where you believe you know God... The Catholic Church can have theirs... the Shi'ite Muslims and the Sunni Muslims and the Westboro Baptist Church can have theirs. Why convince me that yours is the way, when I really don't care which way you choose?
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P.S. If you are talking about repectful... just a hint... don't talk down to people like they are stupid children. Just a suggestion.

I do not believe Biblical Moses nor Jesus Christ were anything more than men.
It is you who are claiming them to be more and therefore saying I think I am more
by placing me with them. I think to be rude really, what other reason could
there be?

Please quote me as to where I am trying to convince you of anything more than
I know God. I never implied nor said you should think like me nor follow me.
I replied to your challenge... "no one can know God"...that is all
I beg to differ with your statement.

I said to each their own and meant it, it is you who say the same but obviously do not
feel that because there is contempt in your words.

You have said no one can know God yet you are searching.

You have put down religion by saying my words "reek" of religion
yet you are searching for God.

You have said I can not know God but then say I am a religion of one if I do.

You are full of contradictions, I believe because you mask how you really feel
about the subject perhaps being less than honest. You say you do not know yet
your words sound as though you have conclusions.

As I said before I wish you only the best on your search for answers and feel one day you will
find what you seek. And no that is not implying anything.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

I do not believe Biblical Moses nor Jesus Christ were anything more than men. It is you who are claiming them to be more and therefore saying I think I am more by placing me with them. I think to be rude really, what other reason couldthere be?Please quote me as to where I am trying to convince you of anything more thanI know God. I never implied nor said you should think like me nor follow me.I replied to your challenge... "no one can know God"...that is allI beg to differ with your statement. I said to each their own and meant it, it is you who say the same but obviously do notfeel that because there is contempt in your words.You have said no one can know God yet you are searching. ou have put down religion by saying my words "reek" of religionyet you are searching for God.You have said I can not know God but then say I am a religion of one if I do.You are full of contradictions, I believe because you mask how you really feelabout the subject perhaps being less than honest. You say you do not know yetyour words sound as though you have conclusions.As I said before I wish you only the best on your search for answers and feel one day you willfind what you seek. And no that is not implying anything.

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Okay. You know God?
Who is God? Where did God come from? Where did we all come from? What is going to happen to me after I die? What is the meaning of this limited existence? What is the origins of life? If the Big Bang is true... where did all of that matter come from? If the Big Bang isn't true... what was there before?

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

I do not believe Biblical Moses nor Jesus Christ were anything more than men. It is you who are claiming them to be more and therefore saying I think I am more by placing me with them. I think to be rude really, what other reason couldthere be?Please quote me as to where I am trying to convince you of anything more thanI know God. I never implied nor said you should think like me nor follow me.I replied to your challenge... "no one can know God"...that is allI beg to differ with your statement. I said to each their own and meant it, it is you who say the same but obviously do notfeel that because there is contempt in your words.You have said no one can know God yet you are searching. ou have put down religion by saying my words "reek" of religionyet you are searching for God.You have said I can not know God but then say I am a religion of one if I do.You are full of contradictions, I believe because you mask how you really feelabout the subject perhaps being less than honest. You say you do not know yetyour words sound as though you have conclusions.As I said before I wish you only the best on your search for answers and feel one day you willfind what you seek. And no that is not implying anything.

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Okay. You know God?
Who is God? Where did we all come from? What is going to happen to me after I die? What is the meaning of this limited existence? What is the origins of life?

Thank you for that Cosmos, I'm glad you understand.

Those are your questions ...

none of that matters to me but I said that pages back.
I've had personal questions answered of direct importance to me and my life here.

For me knowing God is enough of an answer to it all, all those questions you list.
Maybe you understand what I mean, maybe not.
But you may need to know those answers.

I won't say ask cause I may get accused of coercing you in a particular direction
and that I am not interested in doing.... your search is your own.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

Thank you for that Cosmos, I'm glad you understand. Those are your questions ...
none of that matters to me but I said that pages back.
I've had personal questions answered of direct importance to me and my life hereFor me knowing God is enough of an answer to it all, all those questions you list.Maybe you understand what I mean, maybe not.But you may need to know those answers. I won't say ask cause I may get accused of coercing you in a particular directionand that I am not interested in doing.... your search is your own.

...
So... in other words... you don't know.
Well, that's okay. All it means is that you are a human being... just like the other billions of other human beings that have roam the planet. To believe otherwise would mean that you fall into the company of Moses and Jesus... the other 2 humans that knew God. To do so would mean that you think you are exceptional amongst the billions of living humans today... somehow, more deserving that the rest of us. You are admitting that you are neither a deliverer or a messiah or chosen one. Just another human being.
Welcome back to the human race.

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

Thank you for that Cosmos, I'm glad you understand. Those are your questions ...
none of that matters to me but I said that pages back.
I've had personal questions answered of direct importance to me and my life hereFor me knowing God is enough of an answer to it all, all those questions you list.Maybe you understand what I mean, maybe not.But you may need to know those answers. I won't say ask cause I may get accused of coercing you in a particular directionand that I am not interested in doing.... your search is your own.

...
So... in other words... you don't know.
Well, that's okay. All it means is that you are a human being... just like the other billions of other human beings that have roam the planet. To believe otherwise would mean that you fall into the company of Moses and Jesus... the other 2 humans that knew God. That you are exceptional amongst the billions of living humans today... somehow, more deserving that the rest of us. You are admitting that you are neither a deliverer or a messiah. Just another human being.
Welcome back to the human race.

Again pretty mean and why Cosmos? Disrespectful too.

I never claimed to be anything other than a human being and yes I know God
I can still be a plain old human being, no super powers here, well maybe one
and know God

My questions/answers also I would hope you would not dismiss...
remember to each their own

This is like our matters of heart discussion :? You take heart as literal
when most understand what is meant by affairs of the heart.

All this hostility is a waste of time and energy on your part,
I really do not understand it if you believe... to each their own.

And if you truly believe no one can know God
I would think it would be futile your search for answers.

Perhaps you are open to the thought of finding your answers in this lifetime
and maybe it is not of importance because you already have made your conclusions.

I will say it has been nice chatting
but I do think we will continue to have problems that stem
from semantics ... this I think we can see emerging.

Also I see you are capable of being disrespectful when I thought otherwise
of you.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

Again pretty mean and why Cosmos? Disrespectful too. I never claimed to be anything other than a human being and yes I know GodI can still be a plain old human being, no super powers here, well maybe one and know God
My questions/answers also I would hope you would not dismiss... remember to each their own
This is like our matters of heart discussion :? You take heart as literal when most understand what is meant by affairs of the heart.All this hostility is a waste of time and energy on your part, I really do not understand it if you believe... to each their own.And if you truly believe no one can know God I would think it would be futile your search for answers.Perhaps you are open to the thought of finding your answers in this lifetimeand maybe it is not of importance because you already have made your conclusions.I will say it has been nice chatting but I do think we will continue to have problems that stemfrom semantics ... this I think we can see emerging.Also I see you are capable of being disrespectful when I thought otherwiseof you.

...
Someone PM'd me and warned me of the Victim Card you were going to pull... They also were freightening accurate on how you would close out this discussion. I assurred them that I would be able to engage you in a meaningful discussion that would not result in this. I was wrong. Now, I owe someone case of beer (or equivilent).
That said... you never gave any answers, so there were no answers for me to dismiss.
I have no problem with your belief the you know God and it is your truth. I have said this throughout this discussion. I don't think you really think you are in the same company as Moses or Jesus... (And to explain this so you don't have a fit again... If what you are saying is true: Then, Moses knew God. Jesus knew God. That's it. Until, Pandora knows God. Therefore, Moses, Jesus and Pandora are the only humans to know God).
You are just one of a couple of billion of us who want to make a connection with a greater force. You have found it in your belief... which is what it is... belief. The belief that you know God.
All I'm saying is I am looking for the truth... not belief.
...
Now... if you'll excuse me... I have to see if i can buy someone one of those Zombie T-Shirts.

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

Again pretty mean and why Cosmos? Disrespectful too. I never claimed to be anything other than a human being and yes I know GodI can still be a plain old human being, no super powers here, well maybe one and know God
My questions/answers also I would hope you would not dismiss... remember to each their own
This is like our matters of heart discussion :? You take heart as literal when most understand what is meant by affairs of the heart.All this hostility is a waste of time and energy on your part, I really do not understand it if you believe... to each their own.And if you truly believe no one can know God I would think it would be futile your search for answers.Perhaps you are open to the thought of finding your answers in this lifetimeand maybe it is not of importance because you already have made your conclusions.I will say it has been nice chatting but I do think we will continue to have problems that stemfrom semantics ... this I think we can see emerging.Also I see you are capable of being disrespectful when I thought otherwiseof you.

...
Someone PM'd me and warned me of the Victim Card you were going to pull... They also were freightening accurate on how you would close out this discussion. I assurred them that I would be able to engage you in a meaningful discussion that would not result in this. I was wrong. Now, I owe someone case of beer (or equivilent).
That said... you never gave any answers, so there were no answers for me to dismiss.
I have no problem with your belief the you know God and it is your truth. I have said this throughout this discussion. I don't think you really think you are in the same company as Moses or Jesus... (And to explain this so you don't have a fit again... If what you are saying is true: Then, Moses knew God. Jesus knew God. That's it. Until, Pandora knows God. Therefore, Moses, Jesus and Pandora are the only humans to know God).
You are just one of a couple of billion of us who want to make a connection with a greater force. You have found it in your belief... which is what it is... belief. The belief that you know God.
All I'm saying is I am looking for the truth... not belief.
...
Now... if you'll excuse me... I have to see if i can buy someone one of those Zombie T-Shirts.

Semantics again and rudeness.

You know it is more than wrong.... it is cruel and hurtful to call a person a victim.

They may have been raised a victim for all you or anyone else may know.
They may have been victimized as a child.

But I would not expect some people to even have the heart to think of that in advance.

The abusers always play that card ... they blame the victim for their own nastiness.
It is how they justify what they do.

Good day ... oh ... you would be wise to always bet against me

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

Semantics again and rudeness.
You know it is more than wrong.... it is cruel and hurtful to call a person a victim.
They may have been raised a victim for all you or anyone else may know.
They may have been victimized as a child.
But I would not expect some peopler to even have the heart to think of that in advance.
The abusers always play that card ... they blame the victim for their own nastiness.
It is how they justify what they do.
Good day ... oh ... you would be wise to always bet against me

...
So... does this mean you are saying you are in the same group as Moses and Jesus... or not?
...
And thanx for the tip. I was betting that you would be a rational human, not a drama queen that would try to paint me as an evil bully. I take your advice the next time.

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

Semantics again and rudeness.
You know it is more than wrong.... it is cruel and hurtful to call a person a victim.
They may have been raised a victim for all you or anyone else may know.
They may have been victimized as a child.
But I would not expect some peopler to even have the heart to think of that in advance.
The abusers always play that card ... they blame the victim for their own nastiness.
It is how they justify what they do.
Good day ... oh ... you would be wise to always bet against me

...
So... does this mean you are saying you are in the same group as Moses and Jesus... or not?
...
And thanx for the tip. I was betting that you would be a rational human, not a drama queen that would try to paint me as an evil bully. I take your advice the next time.

You have hidden behind being open minded, searching for truth and to each their own
and then contradict it all and have been cruel and disrespectful....

but I am cool with all that.

I guess that is you... I can accept that. All kinds of people.

I don't think I called you an evil bully though
cause that is not what I think ...

Not sure where I was the Drama Queen perhaps you could quote me
so I can use that in the future

I've always kind of wanted to be one of those

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

You have hidden behind being open minded, searching for truth and to each their own
and then contradict it all and have been cruel and disrespectful.... but I am cool with all that.
I guess that is you... I can accept that. All kinds of people.
I don't think I called you an evil bully though
cause that is not what I think ...
Not sure where I was the Drama Queen perhaps you could quote me
so I can use that in the future
I've always kind of wanted to be one of those

...
Let's see... I'm 'mean and disrespectful'... just because I don't take the claim, "I Know God" as the absolute truth.
...
Okay... then I guess I owe you an apology. And an apology to those others who have said, "I Know God":
Usama bin Laden, Jerry Falwell, Mutada al Sadr, Pat Robertson, Saddam Hussein, David Koresh, Rev. Fred Phelps, Benny Hinn, Ayatollah Khomeni, Jim and Tammy Baker, Charles Manson and that homeless guy on Fairfax that I gave 5 dollars to. I'm sorry... you all know God because you say it is so. Please tell Him that Cosmo has some questions for Him. He can reach me at.. oh, yeah... He's God... He knows where I am.
...
P.S. Drama Queen example:
"Semantics again and rudeness.
You know it is more than wrong.... it is cruel and hurtful to call a person a victim.
They may have been raised a victim for all you or anyone else may know.
They may have been victimized as a child.
But I would not expect some peopler to even have the heart to think of that in advance.
The abusers always play that card ... they blame the victim for their own nastiness.
It is how they justify what they do.
Good day ... oh ... you would be wise to always bet against me"

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

You have hidden behind being open minded, searching for truth and to each their own
and then contradict it all and have been cruel and disrespectful.... but I am cool with all that.
I guess that is you... I can accept that. All kinds of people.
I don't think I called you an evil bully though
cause that is not what I think ...
Not sure where I was the Drama Queen perhaps you could quote me
so I can use that in the future
I've always kind of wanted to be one of those

...
Let's see... I'm 'mean and disrespectful'... just because I don't take the claim, "I Know God" as the absolute truth.
...
Okay... then I guess I owe you an apology. And an apology to those others who have said, "I Know God":
Usama bin Laden, Jerry Falwell, Mutada al Sadr, Pat Robertson, Saddam Hussein, David Koresh, Rev. Fred Phelps, Benny Hinn, Ayatollah Khomeni, Jim and Tammy Baker, Charles Manson and that homeless guy on Fairfax that I gave 5 dollars to. I'm sorry... you all know God because you say it is so. Please tell Him that Cosmo has some questions for Him. He can reach me at.. oh, yeah... He's God... He knows where I am.
...
P.S. Drama Queen example:
"Semantics again and rudeness.
You know it is more than wrong.... it is cruel and hurtful to call a person a victim.
They may have been raised a victim for all you or anyone else may know.
They may have been victimized as a child.
But I would not expect some peopler to even have the heart to think of that in advance.
The abusers always play that card ... they blame the victim for their own nastiness.
It is how they justify what they do.
Good day ... oh ... you would be wise to always bet against me"

thats a drama queen? ... no that comes from the heart of a victim
totally open honest and all truth

we've had trouble with the heart thing
I do not expect you to understand

abusers often don't even realize
they are abusive to another it is the way they interact,
disrespectful, harsh, unkind, abrupt... mean.

We will agree to disagree that anyone can know God

you say they can't, I say they can and perhaps we can be at peace with that

sounds like a plan

Jeanwah

I think all of us here on AMT can agree that Pandora is nothing but a victim and the rest of us are abusers. :shock:

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

thats a drama queen? ... no that comes from the heart of a victim
totally open honest and all truth we've had trouble with the heart thin I do not expect you to understand
abusers often don't even realize they are abusive to another it is the way they interact, disrespectful, harsh, unkind, abrupt... mean.
We will agree to disagree that anyone can know God
you say they can't, I say they can and perhaps we can be at peace with that sounds like a plan

...
Do you understand the terms 'Drama Queen' and 'Victim Card'?
A Drama Queen is someone who creates drama where drama does not exist. Like in a civil discussion about the existance or non-existance of God, pulling things like past abuse... out.. of... well, for lack of a better term, out of her ass to create an effect of melodrama.
The Victim Card is when someone gets flustered in the discussion and claims they are being victimized in the discussion. The other party was not being mean and disrespectful... but, calling the other person those things to make it appear that he was picking on you... when, in fact, he was being civil and stating opinions. You try to equate me as your abuser by linking the adjectives, disrespectful and mean. You are playing the part of the victim in the discussion.
...
Still... I stand by the perception that belief is not necessarily knowledge nor truth.
Reason: If I take your claim at face value and the absolute truth, I would have to take bin Laden's claim at the same face value.
It doesn't mean your faith doesn't work for you... and bin Laden's for him.

Byrnzie

I think I'll opt out of this particular 'debate' for fear of losing my patience.

:think:

Cosmo

Byrnzie wrote:

I think I'll opt out of this particular 'debate' for fear of losing my patience.

:think:

...
Wow. This has got to be a first... Byrnzie is speechless!
...
And yeah... I don't know what it looks like from where you're sitting... but, the best way I can explain it... it is like trying to order a breakfast burrito at muffler repair shop on the moon.

Byrnzie

Cosmo wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

I think I'll opt out of this particular 'debate' for fear of losing my patience.

:think:

...
Wow. This has got to be a first... Byrnzie is speechless!
...
And yeah... I don't know what it looks like from where you're sitting... but, the best way I can explain it... it is like trying to order a breakfast burrito at muffler repair shop on the moon.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Cosmo wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

I think I'll opt out of this particular 'debate' for fear of losing my patience.

:think:

...
Wow. This has got to be a first... Byrnzie is speechless!
...
And yeah... I don't know what it looks like from where you're sitting... but, the best way I can explain it... it is like trying to order a breakfast burrito at muffler repair shop on the moon.