i totally agree that there are some things we may never know. my big question is how do the animals know to develop camouflage.. how does that happen? i understand their need to, i just dont understand how theyre bodies know, you know???
Animals don´t know how to develop camouflage. Evolution which takes place over millions of years as a result will lead to the changes in the animal(in this case camouflage). Natural selection will make the slightly more camouflaged animals ,slightly more likely to survive in order to reproduce and their offspring will have similar attributes which will continue down the line.
I agree to an extent, but color changes are genetic variations that are bred out. Just like someone might try to use the argument that humans have been getting taller over the last 200 years because of evolution. In actuality, it's just a variation of our genetics that became dominate as taller people became a larger part of the population and produced offspring that were inherently taller. Just like a brown rabbit in a cold region may have mated with a beige rabbit, producing progressively lighter offspring that were able to remain hidden and therefore they were able to survive, until the final variation was white.
When you get in to true evolution, it goes beyond genetic variations, and encompasses actual mutations. Mutations that have specific functions, or mutations that take a function away. Like I used in my example with bees. They didn't always have stingers...so what caused the mutation to form one? What changed the programming within the DNA to produce that appendage that has such a specific function? On top of that, as the mammal population became more and more prevalent, what caused a barbed stinger to be formed? You can't have evolution, true evolution, without intelligence. It's like having a car with no driver...you need someone to guide it and steer it from point A to point B.
Or maybe its not like that at all? Maybe we just have little to no understanding about those processes yet.
Not to badger you, because we've had a civil discussion, but if I understand correctly you have a hard time accepting that a barbed stinger could form without intelligence however you can accept that God was not created or designed? I just don't see how you can have it both ways.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
while I don't necessarily agree with how she's presented it, I've been trying to process for some time what I think Pandora is trying to say. I don't THINK she is trying to say that she's above anyone else in thinking she knows god. I think she's trying to say that it's a personal journey, and that she knows god personally, but not in the way that Moses or Jesus claimed to know him. I think maybe she's misunderstood. I think she's trying to say that she knows god in her own personal way and that everyone has their own personal understanding of what god is and what god means to them. she knows god in how she needs to know god.
whatever you need from god is how you will know him. she's not saying she's above anyone else for knowing god and you don't. she's saying she hopes you find god in any way YOU need to know him, your own personal relationship that you need to have from him.
am I right in saying this Pandora, or am i wrong?
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
i totally agree that there are some things we may never know. my big question is how do the animals know to develop camouflage.. how does that happen? i understand their need to, i just dont understand how theyre bodies know, you know???
Animals don´t know how to develop camouflage. Evolution which takes place over millions of years as a result will lead to the changes in the animal(in this case camouflage). Natural selection will make the slightly more camouflaged animals ,slightly more likely to survive in order to reproduce and their offspring will have similar attributes which will continue down the line.
I agree to an extent, but color changes are genetic variations that are bred out. Just like someone might try to use the argument that humans have been getting taller over the last 200 years because of evolution. In actuality, it's just a variation of our genetics that became dominate as taller people became a larger part of the population and produced offspring that were inherently taller. Just like a brown rabbit in a cold region may have mated with a beige rabbit, producing progressively lighter offspring that were able to remain hidden and therefore they were able to survive, until the final variation was white.
When you get in to true evolution, it goes beyond genetic variations, and encompasses actual mutations. Mutations that have specific functions, or mutations that take a function away. Like I used in my example with bees. They didn't always have stingers...so what caused the mutation to form one? What changed the programming within the DNA to produce that appendage that has such a specific function? On top of that, as the mammal population became more and more prevalent, what caused a barbed stinger to be formed? You can't have evolution, true evolution, without intelligence. It's like having a car with no driver...you need someone to guide it and steer it from point A to point B.
You don´t need anyone to guide a bee from A to B. What is the point of that? Why would a so called god be biased for one animal over another?? Only creationist scientists will argue otherwise. That is not true science, as they are purely trying to make religion fit science ,when in fact real unbiased science is completely corrosive to any religion.It´s the survival of the fittest.Any slight mutation that has any effectiveness will continue to develop in small increments over the years(millions of years).That is so typical of creationists to come to an infantile reason to why a bee has a stinger. I have no problem with people having their faith. I do however have a problem with wrong information getting spread around.
I agree to an extent, but color changes are genetic variations that are bred out. Just like someone might try to use the argument that humans have been getting taller over the last 200 years because of evolution. In actuality, it's just a variation of our genetics that became dominate as taller people became a larger part of the population and produced offspring that were inherently taller. Just like a brown rabbit in a cold region may have mated with a beige rabbit, producing progressively lighter offspring that were able to remain hidden and therefore they were able to survive, until the final variation was white.
When you get in to true evolution, it goes beyond genetic variations, and encompasses actual mutations. Mutations that have specific functions, or mutations that take a function away. Like I used in my example with bees. They didn't always have stingers...so what caused the mutation to form one? What changed the programming within the DNA to produce that appendage that has such a specific function? On top of that, as the mammal population became more and more prevalent, what caused a barbed stinger to be formed? You can't have evolution, true evolution, without intelligence. It's like having a car with no driver...you need someone to guide it and steer it from point A to point B.
Maybe the bee with a stinger was an aberration. Maybe that aberration won out in the end because the bees without stingers died out over time due to their lack of a defense mechanism. Maybe all creatures alive today are the result of deformations and aberrations that have eventually enabled them to prevail in the long term?
Or maybe its not like that at all? Maybe we just have little to no understanding about those processes yet.
Not to badger you, because we've had a civil discussion, but if I understand correctly you have a hard time accepting that a barbed stinger could form without intelligence however you can accept that God was not created or designed? I just don't see how you can have it both ways.
No problem, I don't mind at all, it's been a good conversation and I'm not trying to change anybody's opinions here. I never said I can accept God was not created or designed. I said, I couldn't get my head around that concept. It's a concept that is impossible for my feeble brain to comprehend, and I'm ok with not knowing that aspect. Obviously, based on Biblical statements He always has been, and will be forever, so that's the only reference that people can go off of, and based on my faith that's what I subscribe to regardless of how inconceivable it may sound.
My faith is summed up in Hebrews 11:1 - faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
You don´t need anyone to guide a bee from A to B. What is the point of that? Why would a so called god be biased for one animal over another?? Only creationist scientists will argue otherwise. That is not true science, as they are purely trying to make religion fit science ,when in fact real unbiased science is completely corrosive to any religion.It´s the survival of the fittest.Any slight mutation that has any effectiveness will continue to develop in small increments over the years(millions of years).That is so typical of creationists to come to an infantile reason to why a bee has a stinger. I have no problem with people having their faith. I do however have a problem with wrong information getting spread around.
Then we agree to disagree, and I've got no problem with that. I'm not trying to convince anyone, and we've both made our arguments, both of which are based on hypotheticals that we each see as probabilities. Your information is no more "fact" than mine, because there is no physical evidence to prove either of our points. Your point of view is plausible in your eyes, and my point is plausible to me.
Maybe the bee with a stinger was an aberration. Maybe that aberration won out in the end because the bees without stingers died out over time due to their lack of a defense mechanism. Maybe all creatures alive today are the result of deformations and aberrations that have eventually enabled them to prevail in the long term?
It could be, and it takes faith to believe in that as well.
I can't say I disagree with you there, especially around my place during the summer. If there's one thing that makes me question all of this, it's those things.
i totally agree that there are some things we may never know. my big question is how do the animals know to develop camouflage.. how does that happen? i understand their need to, i just dont understand how theyre bodies know, you know???
Animals don´t know how to develop camouflage. Evolution which takes place over millions of years as a result will lead to the changes in the animal(in this case camouflage). Natural selection will make the slightly more camouflaged animals ,slightly more likely to survive in order to reproduce and their offspring will have similar attributes which will continue down the line.
yes thank you... im fully aware its evolution and not an overnight thing. perhaps i worded it badly. anyhoo...
i wonder will there be a time when a tiger which is the decendent of a zoo animal eventually evolve to a point where it will be born without stripes??? and yes i realise mankind wont be around that long for there to be zoos, but i was just thinking.
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You don´t need anyone to guide a bee from A to B. What is the point of that? Why would a so called god be biased for one animal over another?? Only creationist scientists will argue otherwise. That is not true science, as they are purely trying to make religion fit science ,when in fact real unbiased science is completely corrosive to any religion.It´s the survival of the fittest.Any slight mutation that has any effectiveness will continue to develop in small increments over the years(millions of years).That is so typical of creationists to come to an infantile reason to why a bee has a stinger. I have no problem with people having their faith. I do however have a problem with wrong information getting spread around.
Then we agree to disagree, and I've got no problem with that. I'm not trying to convince anyone, and we've both made our arguments, both of which are based on hypotheticals that we each see as probabilities. Your information is no more "fact" than mine, because there is no physical evidence to prove either of our points. Your point of view is plausible in your eyes, and my point is plausible to me.
I´m certainly not attacking you on a personal level as i´m sure you are a nice person. I however have had enough of religion, especially this intelligent design stuff. A theory in science is not an idea as many people think. It´s a collection of facts,laws of nature,observations etc that all come together to explain something. Evolution is quite obvious when you study the evidence for it and has never been disproven .Everything that has been studied agrees with evolution. It isn´t based on faith.There is no need for that.It´s rock solid.
You don´t need anyone to guide a bee from A to B. What is the point of that? Why would a so called god be biased for one animal over another?? Only creationist scientists will argue otherwise. That is not true science, as they are purely trying to make religion fit science ,when in fact real unbiased science is completely corrosive to any religion.It´s the survival of the fittest.Any slight mutation that has any effectiveness will continue to develop in small increments over the years(millions of years).That is so typical of creationists to come to an infantile reason to why a bee has a stinger. I have no problem with people having their faith. I do however have a problem with wrong information getting spread around.
Then we agree to disagree, and I've got no problem with that. I'm not trying to convince anyone, and we've both made our arguments, both of which are based on hypotheticals that we each see as probabilities. Your information is no more "fact" than mine, because there is no physical evidence to prove either of our points. Your point of view is plausible in your eyes, and my point is plausible to me.
I´m certainly not attacking you on a personal level as i´m sure you are a nice person. I however have had enough of religion, especially this intelligent design stuff. A theory in science is not an idea as many people think. It´s a collection of facts,laws of nature,observations etc that all come together to explain something. Evolution is quite obvious when you study the evidence for it and has never been disproven .Everything that has been studied agrees with evolution. It isn´t based on faith.There is no need for that.It´s rock solid.
I'm well aware of what constitutes a scientific theory, and my argument is not based on whether or not evolution occurs. As I've stated, I absolutely believe that evolution occurs and can be demonstrated in nature through fossil records and other historical data. What is theoretical in everyday terms, and debated among the scientific community is the cause of these mutations.
while I don't necessarily agree with how she's presented it, I've been trying to process for some time what I think Pandora is trying to say. I don't THINK she is trying to say that she's above anyone else in thinking she knows god. I think she's trying to say that it's a personal journey, and that she knows god personally, but not in the way that Moses or Jesus claimed to know him. I think maybe she's misunderstood. I think she's trying to say that she knows god in her own personal way and that everyone has their own personal understanding of what god is and what god means to them. she knows god in how she needs to know god.
whatever you need from god is how you will know him. she's not saying she's above anyone else for knowing god and you don't. she's saying she hopes you find god in any way YOU need to know him, your own personal relationship that you need to have from him.
am I right in saying this Pandora, or am i wrong?
...
I agree. That is what is trying to be expressed.
And I said, over and over and over again... I think that is GREAT. That the relationship with God should be personal.
But, her way is not for me.
I have heard the 'I Know God' path, literally, a hundred times. And from some pretty unsavory characters (previously listed). Which leads me to having doubts about that doctrine. Most religions will have knowing God as one of their own... whether it is a million followers or a single follower. Christianity and Islam both 'Know' God... the same as Pandora.
Now, not all those I've talked to were the bin Laden or Koresh types... I have had serious religious discussions with friends, one of them being an Air Force Chaplin, another was a professor of Theology at Fresno State. I've spoken with priests and ministers and many Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Jews and Atheists about religion. Not in debate, but in the spirit of discovery. I'm told... it's pretty much, a leap of faith. So, i have heard Pandora's story many times... by many different people.
My problem is... if all of these people 'Know' God... then why is everything so fucked up? Shouldn't people who 'Know' God... act in a manner that is worthy of Him? I mean, certainly people are nice... I'm certain Pandora is a very nice person... but, for example, her view on Illegal Immigrants falls in line with right-wing Nationalistic exclusion. Aren't most of these people... People who just want to make a better living for themselves and their families? Was it God's plan to have them born dirt poor where the nearest chance for a better life is 500 miles and 2 border crossings away?
The leap of faith is just too easy of a path... for me to take. I choose to take the tougher road. I know... it is on me and I'm doing fine. Somehow, I believe my journey does me good. I have no ill will towards religion... which make me tolerant towards all religion... even if no religion is for me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
It sounds like you're looking to believe or looking for a religion that's right for you Cosmo. Can I ask why you're so interested? It sounds like you've gotten your answers several times. Are you not satisfied with them? Are you looking for a different answer?
And as I already mentioned, I think believing and throwing all of one's trust and faith into a higher power almost excuses our own behavior, therefore having faith in ourselves and believing that we're our own high power forces us to put extra effort into being a better person. But hey, that's just how I view it all. I don't usually get involved in religious threads because I believe it's a personal thing and to each their own, really.
It sounds like you're looking to believe or looking for a religion that's right for you Cosmo. Can I ask why you're so interested? It sounds like you've gotten your answers several times. Are you not satisfied with them? Are you looking for a different answer?
And as I already mentioned, I think believing and throwing all of one's trust and faith into a higher power almost excuses our own behavior, therefore having faith in ourselves and believing that we're our own high power forces us to put extra effort into being a better person. But hey, that's just how I view it all. I don't usually get involved in religious threads because I believe it's a personal thing and to each their own, really.
...
Well... I'm a guy who has a yearning to make sense of why I am here. I like to spend time in quiet contemplation trying to understand. I have tried the Christianity route... a couple of three or four times. It's not Christ I forsake, it's Christians that drove me away. If we are following the teachings of Christ... why do we endorse War, the death penalty and scorn others who don't follow as we do? The same goes for those religion who scorn us. I don't buy into the God that the Bible is selling. Religon attaches petty human character traits to Him... making Him more like us, rather than us trying to understand Him.
Some of my favorite times are spent alone, on an empty beach, watching the Sun set over the Pacific... gazing over the calm waters of a Sierra Lake... watching colors of a desert sunrise... the night sky lit by the billions of stars. There has to be something bigger than my insignificant existance on this tiny rock, circling a mediocre star in an average galaxy.
I guess... I'm trying to belong. Part of the bigger picture. I understood, at a pretty young age, that I will eventually die. Just like every other living thing... my parents, siblings, my cat... everything. Is this it? it may well be.... but, i guess I don't want it to be.
So, by my finding God... on my terms, I believe I will have served a greater purpose in life. I am trying to follow Christ's lead, but admit, I often fail. I try to be a good person... but, as Yoda once said.... you either do or you don't... there is no such thing as trying. I do appreciate the little things this life has to offer. And I try to understand others... which is how I have come to accept everyone else's belief systems... if they find in it, what they seek. I'm not saying they are wrong... i'm simply saying, theirs is not for me.
So... I keep looking for the truth... the absolute truth about God. And the perceptions and relative truth they have found. I am not them and they are not me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
It sounds like you're looking to believe or looking for a religion that's right for you Cosmo. Can I ask why you're so interested? It sounds like you've gotten your answers several times. Are you not satisfied with them? Are you looking for a different answer?
And as I already mentioned, I think believing and throwing all of one's trust and faith into a higher power almost excuses our own behavior, therefore having faith in ourselves and believing that we're our own high power forces us to put extra effort into being a better person. But hey, that's just how I view it all. I don't usually get involved in religious threads because I believe it's a personal thing and to each their own, really.
...
Well... I'm a guy who has a yearning to make sense of why I am here. I like to spend time in quiet contemplation trying to understand. I have tried the Christianity route... a couple of three or four times. It's not Christ I forsake, it's Christians that drove me away. If we are following the teachings of Christ... why do we endorse War, the death penalty and scorn others who don't follow as we do? The same goes for those religion who scorn us. I don't buy into the God that the Bible is selling. Religon attaches petty human character traits to Him... making Him more like us, rather than us trying to understand Him.
Some of my favorite times are spent alone, on an empty beach, watching the Sun set over the Pacific... gazing over the calm waters of a Sierra Lake... watching colors of a desert sunrise... the night sky lit by the billions of stars. There has to be something bigger than my insignificant existance on this tiny rock, circling a mediocre star in an average galaxy.
I guess... I'm trying to belong. Part of the bigger picture. I understood, at a pretty young age, that I will eventually die. Just like every other living thing... my parents, siblings, my cat... everything. Is this it? it may well be.... but, i guess I don't want it to be.
So, by my finding God... on my terms, I believe I will have served a greater purpose in life. I am trying to follow Christ's lead, but admit, I often fail. I try to be a good person... but, as Yoda once said.... you either do or you don't... there is no such thing as trying. I do appreciate the little things this life has to offer. And I try to understand others... which is how I have come to accept everyone else's belief systems... if they find in it, what they seek. I'm not saying they are wrong... i'm simply saying, it is not for me.
So... I keep looking for the truth... the absolute truth about God. And the perceptions and relative truth they have found. I am not them and they are not me.
Very interesting Cosmo. I feel somewhat the same.
For myself, at a younger age, I set out to underastand, to know the purpose of a God, universe, or even myself. But I was told too many contradictory things. So I made up my own. Then I decided I didnt need to search for it...that maybe it would find me. Now, i'm at a fuck-it phase...I will know about it a split second after I take that last breath.
If there is a "God" why does he/she make her/himself known only to a select few, if indeed a person can "know God"? If there is God, why all this mystery? Reveal yourself to me bro.. I wouldnt mind being your friend!
For myself, at a younger age, I set out to underastand, to know the purpose of a God, universe, or even myself. But I was told too many contradictory things. So I made up my own. Then I decided I didnt need to search for it...that maybe it would find me. Now, i'm at a fuck-it phase... will know about it a split second after I take that last breath.
If there is a "God" why does he/she make her/himself known only to a select few, if indeed a person can "know God"? If there is God, why all this mystery? Reveal yourself to me bro.. I wouldnt mind being your friend!
Yes, all questions and thought I have had myself. In the meantime, I treat people the way I want to be treated. Might as well make the world a kinder place if it's in my ability to do so.
...
I agree. That is what is trying to be expressed.
And I said, over and over and over again... I think that is GREAT. That the relationship with God should be personal.
But, her way is not for me.
I have heard the 'I Know God' path, literally, a hundred times. And from some pretty unsavory characters (previously listed). Which leads me to having doubts about that doctrine. Most religions will have knowing God as one of their own... whether it is a million followers or a single follower. Christianity and Islam both 'Know' God... the same as Pandora.
Now, not all those I've talked to were the bin Laden or Koresh types... I have had serious religious discussions with friends, one of them being an Air Force Chaplin, another was a professor of Theology at Fresno State. I've spoken with priests and ministers and many Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Jews and Atheists about religion. Not in debate, but in the spirit of discovery. I'm told... it's pretty much, a leap of faith. So, i have heard Pandora's story many times... by many different people.
My problem is... if all of these people 'Know' God... then why is everything so fucked up? Shouldn't people who 'Know' God... act in a manner that is worthy of Him? I mean, certainly people are nice... I'm certain Pandora is a very nice person... but, for example, her view on Illegal Immigrants falls in line with right-wing Nationalistic exclusion. Aren't most of these people... People who just want to make a better living for themselves and their families? Was it God's plan to have them born dirt poor where the nearest chance for a better life is 500 miles and 2 border crossings away?
The leap of faith is just too easy of a path... for me to take. I choose to take the tougher road. I know... it is on me and I'm doing fine. Somehow, I believe my journey does me good. I have no ill will towards religion... which make me tolerant towards all religion... even if no religion is for me.
I agree with all of this. I think you're the kind of person I'd like to sit on a beach with by a fire and have a 5 hour conversation about the universe.
Even if he were to exist, people are human, flawed, after all. I'm sure 98% of people who believe, TRY their best to act in a manner that is their interpretation of how their god would want them to. Problem is, there's too much open for interpretation, hence why we have wars and conflict. Humans are greedy.
I'm not trying to put words into Pandora's or anyone else's mouths, but consider this: some people believe there is a god, and claim to know him, yet they also know that he doesn't control everything, or maybe even he didn't create everything, he's just there for you when you need him to talk to, to lift your spirits, etc. It doesn't all have to be "well if there is a god why does life suck?".
Life is beautiful, humanity sucks. 99% of humans are awesome. but it's the 1% that control everything. And I personally believe those 1% at one point were part of the 99%.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
It doesn't all have to be "well if there is a god why does life suck?".
Life is beautiful, humanity sucks. 99% of humans are awesome. but it's the 1% that control everything. And I personally believe those 1% at one point were part of the 99%.
The only reaction I ever hear to this that makes sense is (not that crap about "God works in mysterious ways"), but that God must have a weird sense of humor.
It doesn't all have to be "well if there is a god why does life suck?".
Life is beautiful, humanity sucks. 99% of humans are awesome. but it's the 1% that control everything. And I personally believe those 1% at one point were part of the 99%.
The only reaction I ever hear to this that makes sense is (not that crap about "God works in mysterious ways"), but that God must have a weird sense of humor.
I believe the Lisa Simpson version of events. The Genesis Tub. Something created us, but doesn't control a damn thing.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Well... the thing I have come to know.. is when someone tells me they 'know'... and cannot explain it to me... I know they don't know. Because if they did know... they'd be able to explain it. I've talked to many people about religion and faith... yet, the one explanation I get is the leap of faith deal. That I won't know until I take that leap. Well, if they've already taken that leap... and they now know... why can't they explain it to me? Knowing is understanding and understanding means you can convey it... right?
...
One thing I will never understand is the term, 'God Fearing'... like, when someone says, 'as a God-Fearing Christian...'. God is to be feared? We should be afraid of Him? If He is all love... what's to fear? The explanation being His judgement upon us. Well, if He loves us... why does He judge us? Does that mean we should do as He says? If so, then, He needs to tells us what He wants. Then... it goes into that whole 'The Bible tells us what God wants us to do' bit... and it all goes into the discussion about the Bible and the control of the church over the Bible for all of those centuries and so on.
So... not being one to fear God... I move on. I believe He knows how fucked up I am and how little I know and accepts me at face value... for what I am, with all of my flaws. When I die, I do KNOW one of my questions will be answered. As I pass through death's portal, I will know if there is another level of being... or if I pass into a void. So, death is not such a frieghtening spectre.
Until then, the only truth I know... I'm only here in this existance, on this Earth until I die. I appreciate life and living and I do my best to share what I have with others... all others, not just the ones I love... and expect nothing in return.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Maybe you should look into Eastern religions Cosmo. Perhaps you need a break from looking for God, so you can find Buddha, instead.
Look into Paganism too, since it sounds like you love nature. It couldn't hurt.
I know God and can explain my experiences and how knowing God has changed my life
just like I can do the same for knowing Pearl Jam
Interaction with many here has proven to me they do not care to know God
this is more than obvious in their words
besides if they did they would already know God it is that simple ...
they want proof from me or others which is damn silly in fact makes
no sense at all...
only God can prove God exists
God could perform a miracle in their lives and they would not be able to see it
it would be explained away and not absorbed with the
revelation and enlightenment that was intended
Life is a journey .. in my opinion and experience towards God
For others it is not,
they will not ask for that on this journey here in this life
although they claim to search and will move onto another journey
still searching for completeness
if you were lost would you not ask for directions...
I guess some would not
I asked for direction and got it, it was not only life changing
it was me changing
For me the leap of faith was one question one request
As far as needing God, why we need to believe, we do not need to believe
this is proof by the abundance here who do not...
they are surviving just fine
most are kind loving open minded beautiful souls accepting of others
and at peace within their own beliefs
but I have found God needs me and knows me and I do need that
that completes me ... just me no one else
because God is loving and taught me to each their own
I know God and can explain my experiences and how knowing God has changed my life
just like I can do the same for knowing Pearl Jam
Interaction with many here has proven to me they do not care to know God
this is more than obvious in their words
besides if they did they would already know God it is that simple ...
they want proof from me or others which is damn silly in fact makes
no sense at all...
only God can prove God exists
God could perform a miracle in their lives and they would not be able to see it
it would be explained away and not absorbed with the
revelation and enlightenment that was intended
Life is a journey .. in my opinion and experience towards God
For others it is not,
they will not ask for that on this journey here in this life
although they claim to search and will move onto another journey
still searching for completeness
if you were lost would you not ask for directions...
I guess some would not
I asked for direction and got it, it was not only life changing
it was me changing
For me the leap of faith was one question one request
As far as needing God, why we need to believe, we do not need to believe
this is proof by the abundance here who do not...
they are surviving just fine
most are kind loving open minded beautiful souls accepting of others
and at peace within their own beliefs
but I have found God needs me and knows me and I do need that
that completes me ... just me no one else
because God is loving and taught me to each their own
...
Sounds more like a critcism of others, than a confirmation of truth.
I don't want nor need proof from you or anyone else because I KNOW you, or anyone else, cannot provide proof. It is belief... and belief is beyond explanation.
And I'm completely okay with anyone's.
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
'God' is no different from 'Obi Wan Kenobi'.
He was created by us to fulfill an illusion of superior wisdom and eternal life in human form.
Not sure why we created Yoda though :think:
Discuss...
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Yoda was created to remind me that I either do... or I don't. There is no 'trying'.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Comments
Or maybe its not like that at all? Maybe we just have little to no understanding about those processes yet.
Not to badger you, because we've had a civil discussion, but if I understand correctly you have a hard time accepting that a barbed stinger could form without intelligence however you can accept that God was not created or designed? I just don't see how you can have it both ways.
"With our thoughts we make the world"
whatever you need from god is how you will know him. she's not saying she's above anyone else for knowing god and you don't. she's saying she hopes you find god in any way YOU need to know him, your own personal relationship that you need to have from him.
am I right in saying this Pandora, or am i wrong?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
You don´t need anyone to guide a bee from A to B. What is the point of that? Why would a so called god be biased for one animal over another?? Only creationist scientists will argue otherwise. That is not true science, as they are purely trying to make religion fit science ,when in fact real unbiased science is completely corrosive to any religion.It´s the survival of the fittest.Any slight mutation that has any effectiveness will continue to develop in small increments over the years(millions of years).That is so typical of creationists to come to an infantile reason to why a bee has a stinger. I have no problem with people having their faith. I do however have a problem with wrong information getting spread around.
Maybe the bee with a stinger was an aberration. Maybe that aberration won out in the end because the bees without stingers died out over time due to their lack of a defense mechanism. Maybe all creatures alive today are the result of deformations and aberrations that have eventually enabled them to prevail in the long term?
No problem, I don't mind at all, it's been a good conversation and I'm not trying to change anybody's opinions here. I never said I can accept God was not created or designed. I said, I couldn't get my head around that concept. It's a concept that is impossible for my feeble brain to comprehend, and I'm ok with not knowing that aspect. Obviously, based on Biblical statements He always has been, and will be forever, so that's the only reference that people can go off of, and based on my faith that's what I subscribe to regardless of how inconceivable it may sound.
My faith is summed up in Hebrews 11:1 - faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see.
that is beautiful ... thanks!
Then we agree to disagree, and I've got no problem with that. I'm not trying to convince anyone, and we've both made our arguments, both of which are based on hypotheticals that we each see as probabilities. Your information is no more "fact" than mine, because there is no physical evidence to prove either of our points. Your point of view is plausible in your eyes, and my point is plausible to me.
It could be, and it takes faith to believe in that as well.
I can't say I disagree with you there, especially around my place during the summer. If there's one thing that makes me question all of this, it's those things.
yes thank you... im fully aware its evolution and not an overnight thing. perhaps i worded it badly. anyhoo...
i wonder will there be a time when a tiger which is the decendent of a zoo animal eventually evolve to a point where it will be born without stripes??? and yes i realise mankind wont be around that long for there to be zoos, but i was just thinking.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I´m certainly not attacking you on a personal level as i´m sure you are a nice person. I however have had enough of religion, especially this intelligent design stuff. A theory in science is not an idea as many people think. It´s a collection of facts,laws of nature,observations etc that all come together to explain something. Evolution is quite obvious when you study the evidence for it and has never been disproven .Everything that has been studied agrees with evolution. It isn´t based on faith.There is no need for that.It´s rock solid.
Everyone else thinks you're assholes!!
Happy Friday everyone!!!
Where I'm not ugly and you're lookin' at me
I'm well aware of what constitutes a scientific theory, and my argument is not based on whether or not evolution occurs. As I've stated, I absolutely believe that evolution occurs and can be demonstrated in nature through fossil records and other historical data. What is theoretical in everyday terms, and debated among the scientific community is the cause of these mutations.
I agree. That is what is trying to be expressed.
And I said, over and over and over again... I think that is GREAT. That the relationship with God should be personal.
But, her way is not for me.
I have heard the 'I Know God' path, literally, a hundred times. And from some pretty unsavory characters (previously listed). Which leads me to having doubts about that doctrine. Most religions will have knowing God as one of their own... whether it is a million followers or a single follower. Christianity and Islam both 'Know' God... the same as Pandora.
Now, not all those I've talked to were the bin Laden or Koresh types... I have had serious religious discussions with friends, one of them being an Air Force Chaplin, another was a professor of Theology at Fresno State. I've spoken with priests and ministers and many Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Jews and Atheists about religion. Not in debate, but in the spirit of discovery. I'm told... it's pretty much, a leap of faith. So, i have heard Pandora's story many times... by many different people.
My problem is... if all of these people 'Know' God... then why is everything so fucked up? Shouldn't people who 'Know' God... act in a manner that is worthy of Him? I mean, certainly people are nice... I'm certain Pandora is a very nice person... but, for example, her view on Illegal Immigrants falls in line with right-wing Nationalistic exclusion. Aren't most of these people... People who just want to make a better living for themselves and their families? Was it God's plan to have them born dirt poor where the nearest chance for a better life is 500 miles and 2 border crossings away?
The leap of faith is just too easy of a path... for me to take. I choose to take the tougher road. I know... it is on me and I'm doing fine. Somehow, I believe my journey does me good. I have no ill will towards religion... which make me tolerant towards all religion... even if no religion is for me.
Hail, Hail!!!
And as I already mentioned, I think believing and throwing all of one's trust and faith into a higher power almost excuses our own behavior, therefore having faith in ourselves and believing that we're our own high power forces us to put extra effort into being a better person. But hey, that's just how I view it all. I don't usually get involved in religious threads because I believe it's a personal thing and to each their own, really.
Well... I'm a guy who has a yearning to make sense of why I am here. I like to spend time in quiet contemplation trying to understand. I have tried the Christianity route... a couple of three or four times. It's not Christ I forsake, it's Christians that drove me away. If we are following the teachings of Christ... why do we endorse War, the death penalty and scorn others who don't follow as we do? The same goes for those religion who scorn us. I don't buy into the God that the Bible is selling. Religon attaches petty human character traits to Him... making Him more like us, rather than us trying to understand Him.
Some of my favorite times are spent alone, on an empty beach, watching the Sun set over the Pacific... gazing over the calm waters of a Sierra Lake... watching colors of a desert sunrise... the night sky lit by the billions of stars. There has to be something bigger than my insignificant existance on this tiny rock, circling a mediocre star in an average galaxy.
I guess... I'm trying to belong. Part of the bigger picture. I understood, at a pretty young age, that I will eventually die. Just like every other living thing... my parents, siblings, my cat... everything. Is this it? it may well be.... but, i guess I don't want it to be.
So, by my finding God... on my terms, I believe I will have served a greater purpose in life. I am trying to follow Christ's lead, but admit, I often fail. I try to be a good person... but, as Yoda once said.... you either do or you don't... there is no such thing as trying. I do appreciate the little things this life has to offer. And I try to understand others... which is how I have come to accept everyone else's belief systems... if they find in it, what they seek. I'm not saying they are wrong... i'm simply saying, theirs is not for me.
So... I keep looking for the truth... the absolute truth about God. And the perceptions and relative truth they have found. I am not them and they are not me.
Hail, Hail!!!
Very interesting Cosmo. I feel somewhat the same.
For myself, at a younger age, I set out to underastand, to know the purpose of a God, universe, or even myself. But I was told too many contradictory things. So I made up my own. Then I decided I didnt need to search for it...that maybe it would find me. Now, i'm at a fuck-it phase...I will know about it a split second after I take that last breath.
If there is a "God" why does he/she make her/himself known only to a select few, if indeed a person can "know God"? If there is God, why all this mystery? Reveal yourself to me bro.. I wouldnt mind being your friend!
Yes, all questions and thought I have had myself. In the meantime, I treat people the way I want to be treated. Might as well make the world a kinder place if it's in my ability to do so.
I agree with all of this. I think you're the kind of person I'd like to sit on a beach with by a fire and have a 5 hour conversation about the universe.
Even if he were to exist, people are human, flawed, after all. I'm sure 98% of people who believe, TRY their best to act in a manner that is their interpretation of how their god would want them to. Problem is, there's too much open for interpretation, hence why we have wars and conflict. Humans are greedy.
I'm not trying to put words into Pandora's or anyone else's mouths, but consider this: some people believe there is a god, and claim to know him, yet they also know that he doesn't control everything, or maybe even he didn't create everything, he's just there for you when you need him to talk to, to lift your spirits, etc. It doesn't all have to be "well if there is a god why does life suck?".
Life is beautiful, humanity sucks. 99% of humans are awesome. but it's the 1% that control everything. And I personally believe those 1% at one point were part of the 99%.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
The only reaction I ever hear to this that makes sense is (not that crap about "God works in mysterious ways"), but that God must have a weird sense of humor.
I believe the Lisa Simpson version of events. The Genesis Tub. Something created us, but doesn't control a damn thing.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
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One thing I will never understand is the term, 'God Fearing'... like, when someone says, 'as a God-Fearing Christian...'. God is to be feared? We should be afraid of Him? If He is all love... what's to fear? The explanation being His judgement upon us. Well, if He loves us... why does He judge us? Does that mean we should do as He says? If so, then, He needs to tells us what He wants. Then... it goes into that whole 'The Bible tells us what God wants us to do' bit... and it all goes into the discussion about the Bible and the control of the church over the Bible for all of those centuries and so on.
So... not being one to fear God... I move on. I believe He knows how fucked up I am and how little I know and accepts me at face value... for what I am, with all of my flaws. When I die, I do KNOW one of my questions will be answered. As I pass through death's portal, I will know if there is another level of being... or if I pass into a void. So, death is not such a frieghtening spectre.
Until then, the only truth I know... I'm only here in this existance, on this Earth until I die. I appreciate life and living and I do my best to share what I have with others... all others, not just the ones I love... and expect nothing in return.
Hail, Hail!!!
Look into Paganism too, since it sounds like you love nature. It couldn't hurt.
just like I can do the same for knowing Pearl Jam
Interaction with many here has proven to me they do not care to know God
this is more than obvious in their words
besides if they did they would already know God it is that simple ...
they want proof from me or others which is damn silly in fact makes
no sense at all...
only God can prove God exists
God could perform a miracle in their lives and they would not be able to see it
it would be explained away and not absorbed with the
revelation and enlightenment that was intended
Life is a journey .. in my opinion and experience towards God
For others it is not,
they will not ask for that on this journey here in this life
although they claim to search and will move onto another journey
still searching for completeness
if you were lost would you not ask for directions...
I guess some would not
I asked for direction and got it, it was not only life changing
it was me changing
For me the leap of faith was one question one request
As far as needing God, why we need to believe, we do not need to believe
this is proof by the abundance here who do not...
they are surviving just fine
most are kind loving open minded beautiful souls accepting of others
and at peace within their own beliefs
but I have found God needs me and knows me and I do need that
that completes me ... just me no one else
because God is loving and taught me to each their own
Sounds more like a critcism of others, than a confirmation of truth.
I don't want nor need proof from you or anyone else because I KNOW you, or anyone else, cannot provide proof. It is belief... and belief is beyond explanation.
And I'm completely okay with anyone's.
Hail, Hail!!!
:problem:
He was created by us to fulfill an illusion of superior wisdom and eternal life in human form.
Not sure why we created Yoda though :think:
Discuss...
Yoda was created to remind me that I either do... or I don't. There is no 'trying'.
Hail, Hail!!!