Why do we need to "believe" in God?

fuck

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

one of the definitions is ...
"to be convinced or certain of"
not to just believe...
I am certain of, convinced...
as much so
as I know anything else I know, as much as I know I am here
semantics perhaps
What would make you think I am interested in those questions though? That I would ask?
Those have not been my questions because when one knows God, none of those questions matter.
I did not imply my knowledge applies to anyone else ... although I am not alone.

...
My point is... to each, his own.
You are basically a religion of one. You are convinced that you know God due to some past experience. Great. That works for you and set you on your path... happy trails to you.
But, again... in the real world where the singular absolute truth does exists... you don't know. You may know in the world you live in... but, your relative known/truth only works within your frame of reference.
That is the point I am making. I am looking for the truth... the absolute truth because relative truths do not apply to me. The truth is... I know I will never find it.
The only thing I know for sure... is that I don't know. I don't have any answers.

You clearly did not read the article I posted on the last page - I recommend you do

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

one of the definitions is ...
"to be convinced or certain of"
not to just believe...
I am certain of, convinced...
as much so
as I know anything else I know, as much as I know I am here
semantics perhaps
What would make you think I am interested in those questions though? That I would ask?
Those have not been my questions because when one knows God, none of those questions matter.
I did not imply my knowledge applies to anyone else ... although I am not alone.

...
My point is... to each, his own.
You are basically a religion of one. You are convinced that you know God due to some past experience. Great. That works for you and set you on your path... happy trails to you.
But, again... in the real world where the singular absolute truth does exists... you don't know. You may know in the world you live in... but, your relative known/truth only works within your frame of reference.
That is the point I am making. I am looking for the truth... the absolute truth because relative truths do not apply to me. The truth is... I know I will never find it.
The only thing I know for sure... is that I don't know. I don't have any answers.

I am no religion, not of one or many that's for sure
but I have met others like me recently, it is comforting.

We all live in the same world ...

Never is a long time Cosmo. You are brighter than most stars,
a lovely soul, wise and fair... generous ... let your heart reach.
The truth is going to find you if you want to listen.

Looking for clues, I love that song.

Always 'to each their own' it can't be any other way ...
how can we walk our path if we are not our own?

It is nice though on the path to have a hand to hold
and a tune to sing

markin ball

fuck wrote:

markin ball wrote:

Just for the record, as far as I'm concerened, you, or anyone else, can feel whatever you want to, but I think there is a logic flaw in the statement I bolded. I would say your "faith" in oxygen is based on the processes of science whereas your faith in god and Christ is not. Any thoughts?

This is a bad assumption you are basing your entire argument off of. I can't speak for the previous poster, but you act as if science and God are mutually exclusive. here's an interesting article:


"What Hawking Based His Theory On

Einstein died in 1955, having left behind an unresolved mystery: quantum reality. What Stephen Hawking and the entire scientific community refer to as the Laws of Physics (like gravity and inertia), it turns out, do not apply in the quantum world (i.e. sub-atomic world). But how can the universe’s building bricks, the stuff that makes the entire universe, have different physical laws than the universe they make? Moreover, scientists discovered that in the quantum world, the same exact electron or proton can exist in more than one place at the same time. Such a phenomenon is not allowed to occur in a world governed by the laws of physics.

It’s crucial to note here that scientists are not happy about their quantum findings (unlike philosophers, scientists want things to make sense and to be based on the observed the world). Ever since quantum theory became a fact, scientists (including Einstein who unintentionally set the basis for it) have relentlessly been trying to at least tweak it to match common sense. In one of the greatest scientific debates in history (Copenhagen, 1940), Einstein and Danish scientist, Niels Bohr, reached a dead end: will there ever come a scientist to trump the impeccable findings of quantum theory? Einstein, till his death, believed it was inevitable, while Bohr said it will never happen because the problem is in the act of measuring itself (it alters quantum reality). Every scientist who attempted to disprove quantum theory, with empirical evidence nevertheless, only ended up providing even more empirical evidence to quantum theory. Contrary to scientists’ desires, quantum theory remains a fact until today.

Hawking did not utilize quantum theory to justify his most recent conclusion, rather he bypassed it. He said that “because there is a law such as gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing.” What quantum theory proved is not that matter can appear and disappear (i.e. created from nothing), but that our measuring devices were unable to explain whether matter exists at all. If quantum theory is correct (and so far it is), it means that the universe we live in does not really exist.

“The world isn’t made of things. It’s not made of objects… The notion that big things are made of little things, quantum theory doesn’t describe the world that way. Big things aren’t made of little things. They are made of entities whose attributes aren’t there when you don’t look, but become there when you do look. The world exists when we don’t look at it in some strange state that is indescribable, and then when we look at it, it becomes absolutely ordinary, as though someone were trying to pull something over our eyes. The world is an illusion.” ~ Nick Herbert, Ph.D.

One of several popular explanations (among scientists) as to why quantum theory shows us what Einstein referred to as “voodoo” is that the universe we experience is but a hologram of the actual universe. Another suggests, through string theory, that there is not one universe, but a multi-verse where reality could be mirrors that appear and disappear randomly, which would explain why an electron can exist in two different places at the same time.

It must be understood that the difference between physics (science in general) and philosophy is that the former is based on empirical evidence. In other words, when a physicist like Nick Herbert says the universe is an illusion, this must be proven in a lab! What Bohr was trying to say was that the reason we end up with such an obnoxious lab result has to do with the act of measuring itself, that human beings are simply incapable of proving that the world is real. Einstein, on the other hand, rejected the notion and believed that one day, the appropriate lab device would be invented to show that quantum theory results are nonsense. So far, all attempts and all measuring devices invented, have only further confirmed Bohr’s position.

“Science makes God unnecessary” ~ Stephen Hawking.

When Hawking says that the existence of God is no longer necessary to explain how the universe was created, he is not saying that God does not exist, nor is he saying that we finally figured out how the universe was created. All what he said was that now we have a new reasonable theory of how the universe was created which does not require a First Mover (First Cause). He mixed the findings of the probabilistic quantum theory (world is fuzzy and laws of physics don’t apply) with the big bang theory (the universe began as a singularity, an existence with no dimensions, governed by the laws of physics), to say that the singularity belongs to the quantum world, where cause and effect no longer holds, which means that singularity could very well come from nothing, and that time (the fourth dimension) does not exist when there is no existence, so there was no such thing as “time” before the creation of that singularity, which means there was nothing before existence in order to create anything.

However, the problem is not only about the “time” dimension, but the other three dimensions that represent the void (nothingness). Does nothingness have dimensions? If we say yes, then we can no longer say it is nothing. If you can visualize nothingness, then it is no longer nothingness. And I’m not talking about the void in outer space. Physicists have already accounted for the vast nothingness in between celestial bodies, referring to it as dark matter and dark energy, together comprising 96% of the universe (leaving only 4% of the universe we can perceive). I’m talking about what comprises 99.99999999% of every atom! What “stuff” is between an electron and a proton? And if the universe is made of atoms and dark (negative) atoms, then what we are actually perceiving is only the fan blades (0.00000001%), while the remaining is unaccounted for as anything. This is what reinforces the hologram theory of the universe aforementioned: perhaps the singularity that spun this universe did not really bang, but instead emitted itself into the void, like a laser show, and painted the void with energy (i.e. matter), including the minds of human beings who are contemplating all of this.

Conclusion

Unfortunately, science has been in an existential lock-down ever since Einstein opened the gates of quantum theory decades ago, when all laws of physics fell apart in the quantum lab. But since “to a man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail,” a scientist can only resolve the paradoxes he encounters with, well, more science!

But Bohr was right in ways that unimaginative scientists (men with hammers who think everything is a nail) cannot understand: the problem with science is the measuring device. In other words, the scientific method is not equipped to enable us to understand what the universe is made of, let alone how it was created.

Hawking did say one thing that is absolutely true: the human mind is conditioned to think in terms of cause and effect (it is what truly separates mankind from all other living beings). And all human knowledge is based on this universal principle.

“There is only one constant,” said the Merovingian in The Matrix Reloaded, “one universality that is the only real truth: causality — action [and] reaction; cause and effect…. Our only hope, our only peace, is to understand it, to understand the “why.” “Why” is what separates us from them. “Why” is the only real source of power. Without it, you’re powerless.“

Hawking, however, showed how there is a way (a logic) to consider a universe without cause and effect. In fact, human beings (and only human beings) seem to be wired to see the world through causality. A cat, for instance, does not wonder where the ball that rolled down the living room came from. All human infants do.

Philosophers and metaphysicists have figured out centuries ago what physicists are now discovering with mathematics and labs. But the mysteries of the universe were never meant to be understood in labs. Physics (and math) are but tools, like a hammer, and they’re extremely effective in building cars, airplanes, and other wonderful gadgets and machines. But some things are not nails."

http://www.kabobfest.com/2011/08/stephe ... verse.html

I'm not sure you understood my point (perhaps I was not clear) however your criticism is based on the ultimate assumption...that god exists.

brianlux

For some reason this thread keeps seeping into my thoughts- don't know why. It's not like I'm uncertain about my beliefs (I'm not the least bit uncertain- uncertainty is a given.)

Anyway, as I was driving to work this morning I remembered being told several times "When you die you will stand before God and everyone and your entire life will be laid bare" (or something along those lines). As I thought about this my logical left brain chimed in with, "Yeah, ok, but when you die your body will cease to function. You- that is, all that is the visible you, will turn back to bones, dust, and daisies and the only you that will be left to stand before God will be either the electrical impulses that have eminated from your brain while it was alive or your spirit. But since one's spirit is tangible and no one yet (to my knowledge) has proven what that spirit actually is and no one (I believe) has stood before God and come back to tell the rest of us about it, how do we know that will happen... or anything will happen?"

Suddenly, something just seemed so clear to me: You always stand before yourself and anytime you are not alone, you stand before your fellow humans. Now is the time to redeem yourself. Everytime you face yourself or your fellow human, you have the chance to redeem yourself.

I became much friendlier today.

Cosmo

pandora wrote:

I am no religion, not of one or many that's for sure but I have met others like me recently, it is comforting.
We all live in the same world ...
Never is a long time Cosmo. You are brighter than most stars, a lovely soul, wise and fair... generous ... let your heart reach. The truth is going to find you if you want to listen.
Looking for clues, I love that song.
Always 'to each their own' it can't be any other way ... how can we walk our path if we are not our own?
It is nice though on the path to have a hand to hold and a tune to sing

...
Well... based upon the things you've said here... your statement of knowing God... that's a religion. You may be the only member, but that is a doctrine... "I Know God"... yup, that's a religion.
Also, I will never find any truth by simply listening. There is so much bullshit, dogma, static, lies and relative truths... and so many people telling me they know the truth... yet, cannot tell me what it is... tells me it isn't the truth. I know... I know... 'Listen with your heart... peace, love and rainbows...' and all of that stuff I've heard a million times before... I didn't buy it then, and I ain't buying it now.
But, yeah... I keep looking for something because I know I am not te enlightened one that knows. Like I said... I only know that i really don't know squat.

Cosmo

brianlux wrote:

For some reason this thread keeps seeping into my thoughts- don't know why. It's not like I'm uncertain about my beliefs (I'm not the least bit uncertain- uncertainty is a given.)

Anyway, as I was driving to work this morning I remembered being told several times "When you die you will stand before God and everyone and your entire life will be laid bare" (or something along those lines). As I thought about this my logical left brain chimed in with, "Yeah, ok, but when you die your body will cease to function. You- that is, all that is the visible you, will turn back to bones, dust, and daisies and the only you that will be left to stand before God will be either the electrical impulses that have eminated from your brain while it was alive or your spirit. But since one's spirit is tangible and no one yet (to my knowledge) has proven what that spirit actually is and no one (I believe) has stood before God and come back to tell the rest of us about it, how do we know that will happen... or anything will happen?"

Suddenly, something just seemed so clear to me: You always stand before yourself and anytime you are not alone, you stand before your fellow humans. Now is the time to redeem yourself. Everytime you face yourself or your fellow human, you have the chance to redeem yourself.

I became much friendlier today.

...
Nice one, Brian. My take:
You do good deeds... not to show other people... not even because Jesus and God are watching. You do good deeds because it its the right thing to do. Not looking for acknowledgement, admirations or a reserved seat in Heaven... that would mean you are expecting something in return. How sincere is that, right? You do it because it is the right thing to do.

Jeanwah

Cosmo wrote:

brianlux wrote:

For some reason this thread keeps seeping into my thoughts- don't know why. It's not like I'm uncertain about my beliefs (I'm not the least bit uncertain- uncertainty is a given.)

Anyway, as I was driving to work this morning I remembered being told several times "When you die you will stand before God and everyone and your entire life will be laid bare" (or something along those lines). As I thought about this my logical left brain chimed in with, "Yeah, ok, but when you die your body will cease to function. You- that is, all that is the visible you, will turn back to bones, dust, and daisies and the only you that will be left to stand before God will be either the electrical impulses that have eminated from your brain while it was alive or your spirit. But since one's spirit is tangible and no one yet (to my knowledge) has proven what that spirit actually is and no one (I believe) has stood before God and come back to tell the rest of us about it, how do we know that will happen... or anything will happen?"

Suddenly, something just seemed so clear to me: You always stand before yourself and anytime you are not alone, you stand before your fellow humans. Now is the time to redeem yourself. Everytime you face yourself or your fellow human, you have the chance to redeem yourself.

I became much friendlier today.

...
Nice one, Brian. My take:
You do good deeds... not to show other people... not even because Jesus and God are watching. You do good deeds because it its the right thing to do. Not looking for acknowledgement, admirations or a reserved seat in Heaven... that would mean you are expecting something in return. How sincere is that, right? You do it because it is the right thing to do.

And that feels good, doesn't it? Because it's enough.

ShimmyMommy

Cosmo wrote:

brianlux wrote:

For some reason this thread keeps seeping into my thoughts- don't know why. It's not like I'm uncertain about my beliefs (I'm not the least bit uncertain- uncertainty is a given.)

Anyway, as I was driving to work this morning I remembered being told several times "When you die you will stand before God and everyone and your entire life will be laid bare" (or something along those lines). As I thought about this my logical left brain chimed in with, "Yeah, ok, but when you die your body will cease to function. You- that is, all that is the visible you, will turn back to bones, dust, and daisies and the only you that will be left to stand before God will be either the electrical impulses that have eminated from your brain while it was alive or your spirit. But since one's spirit is tangible and no one yet (to my knowledge) has proven what that spirit actually is and no one (I believe) has stood before God and come back to tell the rest of us about it, how do we know that will happen... or anything will happen?"

Suddenly, something just seemed so clear to me: You always stand before yourself and anytime you are not alone, you stand before your fellow humans. Now is the time to redeem yourself. Everytime you face yourself or your fellow human, you have the chance to redeem yourself.

I became much friendlier today.

...
Nice one, Brian. My take:
You do good deeds... not to show other people... not even because Jesus and God are watching. You do good deeds because it its the right thing to do. Not looking for acknowledgement, admirations or a reserved seat in Heaven... that would mean you are expecting something in return. How sincere is that, right? You do it because it is the right thing to do.

+ a million on both of your comments, brianlux and Cosmo

Cosmo

Jeanwah wrote:

And that feels good, doesn't it?

...
Yeah... typically, I guess.
But, hypothetically, i can see how sometimes, doing the right thing would make you feel shitty.
Like, if you knew your brother murdered someone... and the cops don't know who did it and snag some innocent dude. No matter what you say, you are not convincing your brother to turn himself in.
What do you do?
...
I'd have to say... I'd like to believe that I would turn him in. It's the right thing to do... but, very painful.
...
Well, i guess I'm not going to get invited to Thanxgiving... right?

Jeanwah

Cosmo wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

And that feels good, doesn't it?

...
Yeah... typically, I guess.
But, hypothetically, i can see how sometimes, doing the right thing would make you feel shitty.
Like, if you knew your brother murdered someone... and the cops don't know who did it and snag some innocent dude. No matter what you say, you are not convincing your brother to turn himself in.
What do you do?
...
I'd have to say... I'd like to believe that I would turn him in. It's the right thing to do... but, very painful.
...
Well, i guess I'm not going to get invited to Thanxgiving... right?

How often does that happen though? :shock: That's quite the extreme example. Generally, doing the right thing, whatever it is and if it aligns with your values, will ultimately feel good. Because you're being true to yourself. And being true to yourself, in my opinion, is much more substantial than being true to whatever God or religion you may believe in.

Cosmo

Jeanwah wrote:

How often does that happen though? :shock: That's quite the extreme example. Generally, doing the right thing, whatever it is and if it aligns with your values, will ultimately feel good. Because you're being true to yourself. And being true to yourself, in my opinion, is much better than being true to whatever God or religion you may believe in.

...
Hopefully... never.
I was just thinking of some situation where the result would make me feel absolutely horrible. And i thought of the UnaBomber's brother that did the right thing... and was chastised by many people as a snitch and a rat.
...
But, yes... doing the right thing, generally, feels good. and you said it best, "... being true to yourself, in my opinion, is much better than being true to whatever God or religion you may believe in.".
...
Which reminds me of something that always happens here at work...
Every year, we take a collection and 'Adopt A Family' for Christmas. We all get good feelings of charity and kindness...
BUT... during the year... I hear venomous complaints about stupid whores who can't keep their legs closed, spitting out evil little spawn that become a burden to our state and the obligatory, "Why sould I have to pay for HER?" complaint. (By the way, the correct answer is, "Because you are a human being and fortunate enough to be working and eating and she is a young mother who is trying to raise kids by herself".)
Anyway... come Christmas time... that little Mexican whore with the 3 kids from 2 different fathers becomes the symbol of our Christian Fellowship and we shower this needy single mother of 3 with all the love we can... because Jesus is watching us.
After January... she's transformed back to that stupid little whore and her cockroach spawn. Doesn't Jesus hear us bitching about how our good money is wasted on these social vermin? Doesn't kind of piss Him off?
My guess... He weeps.

satansbed

Cosmo wrote:

brianlux wrote:

For some reason this thread keeps seeping into my thoughts- don't know why. It's not like I'm uncertain about my beliefs (I'm not the least bit uncertain- uncertainty is a given.)

Anyway, as I was driving to work this morning I remembered being told several times "When you die you will stand before God and everyone and your entire life will be laid bare" (or something along those lines). As I thought about this my logical left brain chimed in with, "Yeah, ok, but when you die your body will cease to function. You- that is, all that is the visible you, will turn back to bones, dust, and daisies and the only you that will be left to stand before God will be either the electrical impulses that have eminated from your brain while it was alive or your spirit. But since one's spirit is tangible and no one yet (to my knowledge) has proven what that spirit actually is and no one (I believe) has stood before God and come back to tell the rest of us about it, how do we know that will happen... or anything will happen?"

Suddenly, something just seemed so clear to me: You always stand before yourself and anytime you are not alone, you stand before your fellow humans. Now is the time to redeem yourself. Everytime you face yourself or your fellow human, you have the chance to redeem yourself.

I became much friendlier today.

...
Nice one, Brian. My take:
You do good deeds... not to show other people... not even because Jesus and God are watching. You do good deeds because it its the right thing to do. Not looking for acknowledgement, admirations or a reserved seat in Heaven... that would mean you are expecting something in return. How sincere is that, right? You do it because it is the right thing to do.

but what is the right thingm what if there is no right thing

for example murder is bad

but if you murdered one person to save many would that still be bad

Cosmo

satansbed wrote:

but what is the right thing? what if there is no right thing
for example murder is bad
but if you murdered one person to save many would that still be bad

...
It is relative to the person. You follow your own moral compass and pass judgement upon yourself.
...
As for your example...
A U.S. soldier shoots an Afghani Taliban fighter.
An Afghani fighter shoots a U.S. soldier.
Heroes? Villians? Who is right? Neither? Both?
...
It all comes down to perspective... depending if you an American or an Afghani. One kills a 'terrorist', the other kills a 'foriegn invader'.

satansbed

Cosmo wrote:

satansbed wrote:

but what is the right thing? what if there is no right thing
for example murder is bad
but if you murdered one person to save many would that still be bad

...
It is relative to the person. You follow your own moral compass and pass judgement upon yourself.
...
As for your example...
A U.S. soldier shoots an Afghani Taliban fighter.
An Afghani fighter shoots a U.S. soldier.
Heroes? Villians? Who is right? Neither? Both?
...
It all comes down to perspective... depending if you an American or an Afghani. One kills a 'terrorist', the other kills a 'foriegn invader'.

yeah thats what i was trying to say

but can you really criticize human rights abuses in a war, for example, if they ultimately result in a better state of affairs


and also if you try to do something "good" you can have unintended consequences for example it is good that there be some sort of minimum wage but that can also mean that there is less work

Hugh Freaking Dillon

Cosmo wrote:

Every year, we take a collection and 'Adopt A Family' for Christmas. We all get good feelings of charity and kindness...
BUT... during the year... I hear venomous complaints about stupid whores who can't keep their legs closed, spitting out evil little spawn that become a burden to our state and the obligatory, "Why sould I have to pay for HER?" complaint. (By the way, the correct answer is, "Because you are a human being and fortunate enough to be working and eating and she is a young mother who is trying to raise kids by herself".)
Anyway... come Christmas time... that little Mexican whore with the 3 kids from 2 different fathers becomes the symbol of our Christian Fellowship and we shower this needy single mother of 3 with all the love we can... because Jesus is watching us.
After January... she's transformed back to that stupid little whore and her cockroach spawn. Doesn't Jesus hear us bitching about how our good money is wasted on these social vermin? Doesn't kind of piss Him off?
My guess... He weeps.

this is something that has always bothered me. people seem to think that needy people are only needy at Christmas. My family once decided to spend christmas volunteering at a soup kitchen for the day. guess what? so did the rest of the city. the place was so overrun with volunteers they had to send people home and they BITCHED. The agency pleaded with them to come back on a REGULAR DAY. But how many do? they just have this selfish need to feel good about themselves serving the homeless before they go back to their giant turkey dinner and trimmings.

I didn't volunteer that day. The rest of my family did. I knew what would happen. They didn't. And they bitched. I was so disappointed.

Hugh Freaking Dillon

you have to BELIEVE because to attract a moth, you must first promise the flame. the existence of the flame is irrelevant.

pandora

Cosmo wrote:

pandora wrote:

I am no religion, not of one or many that's for sure but I have met others like me recently, it is comforting.
We all live in the same world ...
Never is a long time Cosmo. You are brighter than most stars, a lovely soul, wise and fair... generous ... let your heart reach. The truth is going to find you if you want to listen.
Looking for clues, I love that song.
Always 'to each their own' it can't be any other way ... how can we walk our path if we are not our own?
It is nice though on the path to have a hand to hold and a tune to sing

...
Well... based upon the things you've said here... your statement of knowing God... that's a religion. You may be the only member, but that is a doctrine... "I Know God"... yup, that's a religion.
Also, I will never find any truth by simply listening. There is so much bullshit, dogma, static, lies and relative truths... and so many people telling me they know the truth... yet, cannot tell me what it is... tells me it isn't the truth. I know... I know... 'Listen with your heart... peace, love and rainbows...' and all of that stuff I've heard a million times before... I didn't buy it then, and I ain't buying it now.
But, yeah... I keep looking for something because I know I am not te enlightened one that knows. Like I said... I only know that i really don't know squat.

you wrote previously

"My take is simple:
God and religion are not the same thing.
God does not subscribe to or endorse any religion.
Religion makes the connection to God... religion claims God as their possession.
Religion causes people to kill or die in God's Name.
Holy scriptures were written by Man, not God."

You seem to be changing your opinion saying I am a religion because I know God.
You seem to contradict here.

So I take it you think perhaps there exists a God
but God has nothing to do with man made religions of the world.
But because I know this and have found that to be true
I am then a religion,
but religion is not God
and God does not endorse my knowing him.

I am confused with your stance.

I'd like to go back to "to each their own" you had me there.

I realize some logical people of the world find it hard to feel before thinking,
but sometimes that is the logical thing to do.
Let your heart reach new heights and your mind will follow,
there is where the answers lie... 'to each their own' ... as unique as each heart.

Chip McFlennigan

God's a real piece of shit these days, anyway.

lukin2006

I am of the belief that people need to believe in God for comfort. To the best of my knowledge humans are the only one's who can imagine their own death. I think the vast majority of people don't want think that once dead that's it...just a long dirt nap.

I am in the "I don't know camp".

As long as people don't force God on other people I don't see the harm in believing.

Religion is more of a problem for me.

Danimal

“Science makes God unnecessary” ~ Stephen Hawking.

If I couldn't use the bathroom by myself, I would be preaching the same thing.