My bottom line... If i ever got to the point where I actually 'KNOW' God... I would hope to think I'd have a better understanding of people and their doubts and not refer to them as, 'the nasties'. I would feel that Just because someone questions my affirmation... doesn't make them 'nasty'.
...
But, that' just me.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
well no, you chose to speak to one paragraph only my experience with others is how I know and from their own admittance.
I have never felt "good for you" here except as a snide comment.
No celebration of my belief or experiences.
Mostly just challenging, disbelief, disrespect, and the need for proof. Though I have said many times one must find their own proof.
I have received loving responses in private though.... but not from some who respond to these kinds of threads, not a polite, I am happy for you, coming from their heart.
Perhaps that is a defensive move, feeling I am trying to convert, which I am not but perhaps this is what they are accustomed to.
I engage the best I can, to explain my experiences without going into personal painful private areas that are no ones business and again while searching in one's own life is where the proof lies. Let's be kind to each other and respect all beliefs, why would someone choose not to?
As I said our belief in God is unimportant, in relation to each other. Having faith in each other is God's intention.
...
Well... personally... since I KNOW I don't now God... I have to come up with what I believe... I believe that an enlightened soul would have a clearer understanding of the confusion of the masses and not just brush them aside as 'disrespectful', 'challenging' and all of the other negative connotations thrown their way. I would think that the enlightenment of 'Knowing God' would relieve me of defensive actions in order to affirm my knowledge.
Again... not being an enlightened one... I have no idea if this holds true. I'd like to believe it... but, many of the thoughts you put together seem to negate this belief.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
My bottom line... If i ever got to the point where I actually 'KNOW' God... I would hope to think I'd have a better understanding of people and their doubts and not refer to them as, 'the nasties'. I would feel that Just because someone questions my affirmation... doesn't make them 'nasty'.
...
But, that' just me.
ha ha how many times now ... six maybe :?
nasties are words, remarks, not people nor a poster
they are derogatory nasty posts directed at other people
well no, you chose to speak to one paragraph only my experience with others is how I know and from their own admittance.
I have never felt "good for you" here except as a snide comment.
No celebration of my belief or experiences.
Mostly just challenging, disbelief, disrespect, and the need for proof. Though I have said many times one must find their own proof.
I have received loving responses in private though.... but not from some who respond to these kinds of threads, not a polite, I am happy for you, coming from their heart.
Perhaps that is a defensive move, feeling I am trying to convert, which I am not but perhaps this is what they are accustomed to.
I engage the best I can, to explain my experiences without going into personal painful private areas that are no ones business and again while searching in one's own life is where the proof lies. Let's be kind to each other and respect all beliefs, why would someone choose not to?
As I said our belief in God is unimportant, in relation to each other. Having faith in each other is God's intention.
...
Well... personally... since I KNOW I don't now God... I have to come up with what I believe... I believe that an enlightened soul would have a clearer understanding of the confusion of the masses and not just brush them aside as 'disrespectful', 'challenging' and all of the other negative connotations thrown their way. I would think that the enlightenment of 'Knowing God' would relieve me of defensive actions in order to affirm my knowledge.
Again... not being an enlightened one... I have no idea if this holds true. I'd like to believe it... but, many of the thoughts you put together seem to negate this belief.
If you would like to know God go talk to God. God is available to anyone.
But you must believe God is there, no one can help you with your beliefs but you and God.
Hope it's ok to post this question here, if not then mods feel free to move.
Anyway, from what I can see, the two key components in most religions, (it seems to me) is the need to believe in God, as well as the need to believe he/she/it/they are "real".
But why do we need to believe in God if he etc is real?
I'm not asking this question to be antagonistic to believers. It is a genuine enquiry about something which has often eluded me. Maybe I'm just not good with non-tangible concepts, but its often confused me that if God if real then why we need to "believe" in him? A table is real but I dont need to "believe" in it for it to be there. Have. I missed something?
Dont get me wrong, I'm not "anti-God" or anything, I'm generally agnostic I guess, but I'll believe anything if I can find a convincing argument for it. So I guess this is a question for the believers out there, why is it necessary to have to believe in God - he's either there or he's not right?
I think your question is one of semantics,... and although I don't think you wanted this... look what's it's created... a large argument on beliefs ha ha.
No offense, but I think your question here is a little silly. My answer to you would be, yes in order to have "faith" in someone or something, you need to first believe he/she or it exists.
Whether one believes that God exists or is confused about the existence of God is one thing. Whether they decide to do anything with that belief is another.
ASIDE: Personally, I don't see what's gained out of being atheist, but I don't want to fall into the trap of getting in an endless argument with one (like this thread became). But, I figure I'll state my point and leave. My point of view is that atheists believe that God does not exist. They are placing their bets on no God. To me, there's no upside to that bet. So, to me, logically, it makes very little sense. Once again, belief in God and the practice of what you do with that belief are two separate things. But, to me, there's no upside to saying you outright are going to base your life and place all of your hope in the thought that there is no God. It's not only depressing, it could be the dumbest bet ever... because if there is an afterlife and all you needed to do to get in was believe... you can't try to hit the ATM and play again. You're dead. Alternatively, if there is no God, we're all in the ground being eaten by worms... believers and non-believers. On net, the believer (or even agnostic route) seems a hell of a lot more safe (pardon the pun).
Hope it's ok to post this question here, if not then mods feel free to move.
Anyway, from what I can see, the two key components in most religions, (it seems to me) is the need to believe in God, as well as the need to believe he/she/it/they are "real".
But why do we need to believe in God if he etc is real?
I'm not asking this question to be antagonistic to believers. It is a genuine enquiry about something which has often eluded me. Maybe I'm just not good with non-tangible concepts, but its often confused me that if God if real then why we need to "believe" in him? A table is real but I dont need to "believe" in it for it to be there. Have. I missed something?
Dont get me wrong, I'm not "anti-God" or anything, I'm generally agnostic I guess, but I'll believe anything if I can find a convincing argument for it. So I guess this is a question for the believers out there, why is it necessary to have to believe in God - he's either there or he's not right?
I think your question is one of semantics,... and although I don't think you wanted this... look what's it's created... a large argument on beliefs ha ha.
No offense, but I think your question here is a little silly. My answer to you would be, yes in order to have "faith" in someone or something, you need to first believe he/she or it exists.
Whether one believes that God exists or is confused about the existence of God is one thing. Whether they decide to do anything with that belief is another.
ASIDE: Personally, I don't see what's gained out of being atheist, but I don't want to fall into the trap of getting in an endless argument with one (like this thread became). But, I figure I'll state my point and leave. My point of view is that atheists believe that God does not exist. They are placing their bets on no God. To me, there's no upside to that bet. So, to me, logically, it makes very little sense. Once again, belief in God and the practice of what you do with that belief are two separate things. But, to me, there's no upside to saying you outright are going to base your life and place all of your hope in the thought that there is no God. It's not only depressing, it could be the dumbest bet ever... because if there is an afterlife and all you needed to do to get in was believe... you can't try to hit the ATM and play again. You're dead. Alternatively, if there is no God, we're all in the ground being eaten by worms... believers and non-believers. On net, the believer (or even agnostic route) seems a hell of a lot more safe (pardon the pun).
And which God will get you your afterlife? If you were born in Saudi Arabia, it certainly wouldn't be the same.
That to me is the biggest reason for for understanding that religion is man made. Where you are born determines what god you believe in. It's easy to see that organized religion is a sham.
ASIDE: Personally, I don't see what's gained out of being atheist, but I don't want to fall into the trap of getting in an endless argument with one (like this thread became). But, I figure I'll state my point and leave. My point of view is that atheists believe that God does not exist. They are placing their bets on no God. To me, there's no upside to that bet. So, to me, logically, it makes very little sense. Once again, belief in God and the practice of what you do with that belief are two separate things. But, to me, there's no upside to saying you outright are going to base your life and place all of your hope in the thought that there is no God. It's not only depressing, it could be the dumbest bet ever... because if there is an afterlife and all you needed to do to get in was believe... you can't try to hit the ATM and play again. You're dead. Alternatively, if there is no God, we're all in the ground being eaten by worms... believers and non-believers. On net, the believer (or even agnostic route) seems a hell of a lot more safe (pardon the pun).
This might be the silliest thing I've ever heard when it comes to believing in God. And I've heard it a million times. The "safety card"...hmm, So even though an atheist doesn't believe, he/she should trick himself into believing "Just in case"?? Lie to yourself and go against your beliefs (just to believe?)...as a safety net.
Wouldnt God know your sneaky little plan to avoid the hellfire?
This is one of the reasons why the old "all it takes is believe in him to get to Heaven" is so flawed. I personally think there "could be a God"...why isnt that enough?? I am a skeptical kind of guy...I've honestly searched for God...for a long time...(how long has this got to go on for??) No proof here...Why's that gotta keep me out of the Pearly gates where PJ plays free shows all day long? Why?
So basically you consider a belief in god some kind of insurance policy, hoping it will pay off?
Nope. Didn't say that. I said I don't understand why "atheists" don't look at it that way, rather than basing their life on their belief in no God. Their belief is a gamble, one with no payoff.
And which God will get you your afterlife? If you were born in Saudi Arabia, it certainly wouldn't be the same.
That to me is the biggest reason for for understanding that religion is man made. Where you are born determines what god you believe in. It's easy to see that organized religion is a sham.
Your confusing belief in God (or a spiritual creator of sorts) and faith in a particular religion. I've stated they are two separate things. First, one needs to believe in God (or a spiritual creator), then they decide how to practice that belief... and perhaps, even narrow that belief into one particular religion.
P.S. The God of Muslims, Jews and Christians is all the same God. Give the bible a read for proof.
This might be the silliest thing I've ever heard when it comes to believing in God. And I've heard it a million times. The "safety card"...hmm, So even though an atheist doesn't believe, he/she should trick himself into believing "Just in case"?? Lie to yourself and go against your beliefs (just to believe?)...as a safety net.
Nope. They can do whatever they want. But, I can also say I don't understand and think their decision may be the dumbest bet ever.
This is one of the reasons why the old "all it takes is believe in him to get to Heaven" is so flawed. I personally think there "could be a God"...why isnt that enough?? I am a skeptical kind of guy...I've honestly searched for God...for a long time...(how long has this got to go on for??) No proof here...Why's that gotta keep me out of the Pearly gates where PJ plays free shows all day long? Why?
I think agnostics are rational. I mean, the truth is none of us really "know". We're not dead. And I don't know what happens when we die. I have my beliefs, you are entitled to yours. For all I know, agnostics can get into heaven... maybe even atheists can. I have no idea. I just think, why not side on the safe side if you have no other reason? That's all.
All I was talking about was chances (I am not getting into my beliefs). I think placing some sort of belief out there is healthy and safe. I think being confused is also natural. I think believing in no God is not natural or healthy or safe. To me, it's humanistic and because of that, to me it has potential to be bad. On top of that, like I said, there could be a very negative payoff when one dies.
This is my opinion, and each person is entitled to theirs.
And which God will get you your afterlife? If you were born in Saudi Arabia, it certainly wouldn't be the same.
That to me is the biggest reason for for understanding that religion is man made. Where you are born determines what god you believe in. It's easy to see that organized religion is a sham.
I agree I too feel organized religion is man made.
I wouldn't call it a sham though because God Is .
People connect God to their religion this their belief, God is real for them and me too.
I think agnostics are rational. I mean, the truth is none of us really "know". We're not dead. And I don't know what happens when we die. I have my beliefs, you are entitled to yours. For all I know, agnostics can get into heaven... maybe even atheists can. I have no idea. I just think, why not side on the safe side if you have no other reason? That's all.
I can agree with all of this except the last line. Not believing is as much a belief as anything else. I just dont think people can trick themselves on this one.
All I was talking about was chances (I am not getting into my beliefs). I think placing some sort of belief out there is healthy and safe. I think being confused is also natural. I think believing in no God is not natural or healthy or safe. To me, it's humanistic and because of that, to me it has potential to be bad. On top of that, like I said, there could be a very negative payoff when one dies.
This is my opinion, and each person is entitled to theirs.
No belief in God is not natural, healthy, or safe? Thats a bit much if you ask me.
I don't know whats more unnatural than 90% of religions out there. I know you're not talking religion though.
I dont see how you can say its not natural, when most people are probably influenced by tradition of religion (agreeing with Brandon here). Most Gods are created regionally.
I think some peoples desires...possibly greed -- to not want to not exist, combined with some real creative dreaming to come up with afterlife, heaven, pearly gates...is the most unnatural & highly unhealthy things I've ever heard.
Healthy? How is it unhealthy to not believe in God? :?
And which God will get you your afterlife? If you were born in Saudi Arabia, it certainly wouldn't be the same.
That to me is the biggest reason for for understanding that religion is man made. Where you are born determines what god you believe in. It's easy to see that organized religion is a sham.
Your confusing belief in God (or a spiritual creator of sorts) and faith in a particular religion. I've stated they are two separate things. First, one needs to believe in God (or a spiritual creator), then they decide how to practice that belief... and perhaps, even narrow that belief into one particular religion.
P.S. The God of Muslims, Jews and Christians is all the same God. Give the bible a read for proof.
There are many different Gods. And there are many different religions...not just Muslim, Christian, and Jewish. And although Jews, Muslims, and Christians may ultimately share the same God, their beliefs throughout their books are often very different. Especially views on the afterlife.
.... but for me, i look at the beauty and intricacy of the world. the leaves, and the trees, the night sky. the sunset, all the different species of animals. the flowers. or things like the fact that up close, magnified, each grain of sand on the beach, is this unbelieveably beautiful and unique creations. or listen to an amazing piece of music. or see some amazing art. i think thats all evidence of god.
You speak of beauty, creativity, etc. being the work of god - all positive things. What about 'ugliness' in our world? Is this the work of of a 'counter-part' to god? A devil? One benevolent being for beauty, one malevolent for the nastiness/disasters/famine? If one believes in one, does one believe in the other?
im of the opinion that all our desires and thoughts and feelings are those of god.
Same kind of principle as first question: if all our desires and thoughts are those of god - and I would say most people believe in a loving/kind/compassionate god - does this also apply to evil thoughts/desires/deeds (whatever evil may mean in various cultures, etc.)? Are there two 'entities'? Or is it the one and only? Is this 'god' then not filled with immense 'love' as one thinks? Or do we only like to believe in god when things are all hunky dory or when one needs him when one is troubled (asking him for a 'sign'/'miracle', etc.) and, with this belief, one brushes aside what doesn't fit in the pattern of an 'all loving' god?
Not baiting, just wondering if people accept a god with a 'split personality' (good and evil) or if there is something else to 'blame'.
in reguards to the dual split god, i dont know. i think my main point is that im a thinker, always have been, and its human nature to try and figure out how we as individuals, and a species and society fit into the world. The question of why are we here and whats the meaning of life, has existed since time began, and has been a focus of many many people, famous and ordinary people have tried to discuss it and come to some sort of conclusion. a recent example, would be the cannes winning film Tree of Life with brad Pitt and sean penn which was specifically about this very issue, why does god allow bad things to happen. The film really didnt have a huge box office in the US, but those who did see it, seem to say it effected them profoundly. I think Gods response to Job in the Bible is one example of how this topic is ancient and has a vast and extensive history.
i dont have an answer to it. i have no idea why a god i believe in would allow such terrible things to occur. I dont have a clue. Ive had trouble in my own personal life for years, and i dont have a clue why god would allow that to happen to me either. If my dreams and desires and urges and hopes are all God speaking, which is what i believe, why the years of struggle and depression and sadness and confusion? I dont have any idea. maybe its the struggle to define oneself and the struggle and suffering to acheive ones own happiness and the slow climb of that, that ultimately when we do acheive our goal and dream that we can say we worked tirelessly to acheieve it. beyond that i dont know. Eckhart Tolle has suggested that he feels violence and death and murder and sadness and all the bad things in the world exist so we can become who we truely are.
If you would like to know God go talk to God. God is available to anyone.
But you must believe God is there, no one can help you with your beliefs but you and God.
how many times have I said this :?
...
You hit it right on the head with this one sentence, "But you must believe God is there, no one can help you with your beliefs but you and God."
Trust me... I have heard this response many, many times from many, many different people. You are not enlightening me to anything new. This is the very same advice that mainstream religions have told me for many, many years.
...
This is what I have been trying to convey to you. Belief is belief. Belief is not knowledge.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
You hit it right on the head with this one sentence, "But you must believe God is there, no one can help you with your beliefs but you and God."
Trust me... I have heard this response many, many times from many, many different people. You are not enlightening me to anything new. This is the very same advice that mainstream religions have told me for many, many years.
...
This is what I have been trying to convey to you. Belief is belief. Belief is not knowledge.
I was not claiming to enlighten you ... perhaps your many religions have claimed such.
I speak of my beliefs and experience with God.
God enlightened me, I had no choice but to believe from my enlightenment.
I was not claiming to enlighten you ... perhaps your many religions have claimed such.
I speak of my beliefs and experience with God.
God enlightened me, I had no choice but to believe from my enlightenment.
Perhaps the same will come to you.
...
Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part...
If someone were to know God. Isn't that enlightenment? The person who knows God is an enlightened one... isn't he/she?
Whether you are one individual that subscribes to one belief, based on personal experience... or a global religion with millions of followers... the basic doctrine of 'Ask, and ye shall recieve' remains the same.
...
And again, this is the point I have been trying to make to you throughout this discussion:
"I speak of my beliefs and experience with God. "
Post edited by Cosmo on
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
in reguards to the dual split god, i dont know. i think my main point is that im a thinker, always have been, and its human nature to try and figure out how we as individuals, and a species and society fit into the world. The question of why are we here and whats the meaning of life, has existed since time began, and has been a focus of many many people, famous and ordinary people have tried to discuss it and come to some sort of conclusion. a recent example, would be the cannes winning film Tree of Life with brad Pitt and sean penn which was specifically about this very issue, why does god allow bad things to happen. The film really didnt have a huge box office in the US, but those who did see it, seem to say it effected them profoundly. I think Gods response to Job in the Bible is one example of how this topic is ancient and has a vast and extensive history.
i dont have an answer to it. i have no idea why a god i believe in would allow such terrible things to occur. I dont have a clue. Ive had trouble in my own personal life for years, and i dont have a clue why god would allow that to happen to me either. If my dreams and desires and urges and hopes are all God speaking, which is what i believe, why the years of struggle and depression and sadness and confusion? I dont have any idea. maybe its the struggle to define oneself and the struggle and suffering to acheive ones own happiness and the slow climb of that, that ultimately when we do acheive our goal and dream that we can say we worked tirelessly to acheieve it. beyond that i dont know. Eckhart Tolle has suggested that he feels violence and death and murder and sadness and all the bad things in the world exist so we can become who we truely are.
...
I'm kinda sort of in the same boat as you are... with my belief being the duality of good and evil in the world as both part of the same equation. Yes, the sunrise in the desert is extremly beautiful and awe-inspiring... but, the desert is a formidible and extremly hostile environment. Same goes for the ocean.... both beautiful and deadly at the same time. I mean, try to live in the desert with only what God gave you and see how long you last... or get dropped off in the middle of the ocean.
I guess that is the duality of man... being a creature of Nature... that is capable of acts of kindness and charity, and cruelty and greed.
God created a place to live.... for a brief period. It's pretty much up to us... what we do with our time... in our world.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
ASIDE: Personally, I don't see what's gained out of being atheist, but I don't want to fall into the trap of getting in an endless argument with one (like this thread became). But, I figure I'll state my point and leave. My point of view is that atheists believe that God does not exist. They are placing their bets on no God. To me, there's no upside to that bet. So, to me, logically, it makes very little sense. Once again, belief in God and the practice of what you do with that belief are two separate things. But, to me, there's no upside to saying you outright are going to base your life and place all of your hope in the thought that there is no God. It's not only depressing, it could be the dumbest bet ever... because if there is an afterlife and all you needed to do to get in was believe... you can't try to hit the ATM and play again. You're dead. Alternatively, if there is no God, we're all in the ground being eaten by worms... believers and non-believers. On net, the believer (or even agnostic route) seems a hell of a lot more safe (pardon the pun).
...
The basic premise that is assumed here is that Atheists are not good people.
My take... live a good life. Be kind to people, just because... not becaue you are hedging your bets just in case there is some sort of reward that may or may not be there afterwards. The results being:
A. There is a God and He accepts you for who you are and what you have done with your life and does not demand your worship of Him.
B. There is a God and He is spiteful because you did not worship Him. Is that kind of unjust God worthy of any worship?
C. There is no God. You are dead and gone, but you leave a lasting memory on the lives you have touched.
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Page 17 of this thread and still nobody has explained what 'God' is.
...
"People, what have you done? Locked Him in His golden cage... made Him bend to your religion... resurrected from the grave.
He is the god of nothing, if that's all that you can see.
You are the god of everything... He's inside you and me.
So, lean upon Him gently and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you used to waive. The bloody Church of England, in chains of history, requests your earthly presence at the vicarage for tea. And the graven image you-know-who with His plastic crucifix (he's got him fixed) confuses me as to who and where and why as to how he gets his kicks. Confessing to the endless sin, the endless whining sounds.
You'll be praying till next Thursday to all the gods that you can count."
Allen Fieldhouse, home of the 2008 NCAA men's Basketball Champions! Go Jayhawks!
Hail, Hail!!!
ASIDE: Personally, I don't see what's gained out of being atheist, but I don't want to fall into the trap of getting in an endless argument with one (like this thread became). But, I figure I'll state my point and leave. My point of view is that atheists believe that God does not exist. They are placing their bets on no God. To me, there's no upside to that bet. So, to me, logically, it makes very little sense. Once again, belief in God and the practice of what you do with that belief are two separate things. But, to me, there's no upside to saying you outright are going to base your life and place all of your hope in the thought that there is no God. It's not only depressing, it could be the dumbest bet ever... because if there is an afterlife and all you needed to do to get in was believe... you can't try to hit the ATM and play again. You're dead. Alternatively, if there is no God, we're all in the ground being eaten by worms... believers and non-believers. On net, the believer (or even agnostic route) seems a hell of a lot more safe (pardon the pun).
to me this is not belief. it is fear of the unknown. people who believe in an almighty believe for different reasons, but I cannot fathom believing in something merely as a key. that to me says you don't really believe. you say your prayers, tell god you believe, when you don't really.
believing for the sole purpose of personal gain is not belief. IMHO.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Comments
...
But, that' just me.
Hail, Hail!!!
Well... personally... since I KNOW I don't now God... I have to come up with what I believe... I believe that an enlightened soul would have a clearer understanding of the confusion of the masses and not just brush them aside as 'disrespectful', 'challenging' and all of the other negative connotations thrown their way. I would think that the enlightenment of 'Knowing God' would relieve me of defensive actions in order to affirm my knowledge.
Again... not being an enlightened one... I have no idea if this holds true. I'd like to believe it... but, many of the thoughts you put together seem to negate this belief.
Hail, Hail!!!
nasties are words, remarks, not people nor a poster
they are derogatory nasty posts directed at other people
But you must believe God is there, no one can help you with your beliefs but you and God.
how many times have I said this :?
I think your question is one of semantics,... and although I don't think you wanted this... look what's it's created... a large argument on beliefs ha ha.
No offense, but I think your question here is a little silly. My answer to you would be, yes in order to have "faith" in someone or something, you need to first believe he/she or it exists.
Whether one believes that God exists or is confused about the existence of God is one thing. Whether they decide to do anything with that belief is another.
ASIDE: Personally, I don't see what's gained out of being atheist, but I don't want to fall into the trap of getting in an endless argument with one (like this thread became). But, I figure I'll state my point and leave. My point of view is that atheists believe that God does not exist. They are placing their bets on no God. To me, there's no upside to that bet. So, to me, logically, it makes very little sense. Once again, belief in God and the practice of what you do with that belief are two separate things. But, to me, there's no upside to saying you outright are going to base your life and place all of your hope in the thought that there is no God. It's not only depressing, it could be the dumbest bet ever... because if there is an afterlife and all you needed to do to get in was believe... you can't try to hit the ATM and play again. You're dead. Alternatively, if there is no God, we're all in the ground being eaten by worms... believers and non-believers. On net, the believer (or even agnostic route) seems a hell of a lot more safe (pardon the pun).
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So basically you consider a belief in god some kind of insurance policy, hoping it will pay off?
Why is not believing in a god depressing?
And which God will get you your afterlife? If you were born in Saudi Arabia, it certainly wouldn't be the same.
That to me is the biggest reason for for understanding that religion is man made. Where you are born determines what god you believe in. It's easy to see that organized religion is a sham.
This might be the silliest thing I've ever heard when it comes to believing in God. And I've heard it a million times. The "safety card"...hmm, So even though an atheist doesn't believe, he/she should trick himself into believing "Just in case"?? Lie to yourself and go against your beliefs (just to believe?)...as a safety net.
Wouldnt God know your sneaky little plan to avoid the hellfire?
This is one of the reasons why the old "all it takes is believe in him to get to Heaven" is so flawed. I personally think there "could be a God"...why isnt that enough?? I am a skeptical kind of guy...I've honestly searched for God...for a long time...(how long has this got to go on for??) No proof here...Why's that gotta keep me out of the Pearly gates where PJ plays free shows all day long?
Nope. Didn't say that. I said I don't understand why "atheists" don't look at it that way, rather than basing their life on their belief in no God. Their belief is a gamble, one with no payoff.
It is depressing because there's no hope for something greater... no hope in a plan here... no hope in an afterlife, amongst other reasons.
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Your confusing belief in God (or a spiritual creator of sorts) and faith in a particular religion. I've stated they are two separate things. First, one needs to believe in God (or a spiritual creator), then they decide how to practice that belief... and perhaps, even narrow that belief into one particular religion.
P.S. The God of Muslims, Jews and Christians is all the same God. Give the bible a read for proof.
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Nope. They can do whatever they want. But, I can also say I don't understand and think their decision may be the dumbest bet ever.
He knows all, I suppose. I'm just trying to point out the flaws in those who choose to not to believe in God.
I think agnostics are rational. I mean, the truth is none of us really "know". We're not dead. And I don't know what happens when we die. I have my beliefs, you are entitled to yours. For all I know, agnostics can get into heaven... maybe even atheists can. I have no idea. I just think, why not side on the safe side if you have no other reason? That's all.
All I was talking about was chances (I am not getting into my beliefs). I think placing some sort of belief out there is healthy and safe. I think being confused is also natural. I think believing in no God is not natural or healthy or safe. To me, it's humanistic and because of that, to me it has potential to be bad. On top of that, like I said, there could be a very negative payoff when one dies.
This is my opinion, and each person is entitled to theirs.
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I wouldn't call it a sham though because God Is .
People connect God to their religion this their belief, God is real for them and me too.
I can agree with all of this except the last line. Not believing is as much a belief as anything else. I just dont think people can trick themselves on this one.
No belief in God is not natural, healthy, or safe? Thats a bit much if you ask me.
I don't know whats more unnatural than 90% of religions out there. I know you're not talking religion though.
I dont see how you can say its not natural, when most people are probably influenced by tradition of religion (agreeing with Brandon here). Most Gods are created regionally.
I think some peoples desires...possibly greed -- to not want to not exist, combined with some real creative dreaming to come up with afterlife, heaven, pearly gates...is the most unnatural & highly unhealthy things I've ever heard.
Healthy? How is it unhealthy to not believe in God? :?
There are many different Gods. And there are many different religions...not just Muslim, Christian, and Jewish. And although Jews, Muslims, and Christians may ultimately share the same God, their beliefs throughout their books are often very different. Especially views on the afterlife.
Like I said...Organized religion is a sham.
in reguards to the dual split god, i dont know. i think my main point is that im a thinker, always have been, and its human nature to try and figure out how we as individuals, and a species and society fit into the world. The question of why are we here and whats the meaning of life, has existed since time began, and has been a focus of many many people, famous and ordinary people have tried to discuss it and come to some sort of conclusion. a recent example, would be the cannes winning film Tree of Life with brad Pitt and sean penn which was specifically about this very issue, why does god allow bad things to happen. The film really didnt have a huge box office in the US, but those who did see it, seem to say it effected them profoundly. I think Gods response to Job in the Bible is one example of how this topic is ancient and has a vast and extensive history.
i dont have an answer to it. i have no idea why a god i believe in would allow such terrible things to occur. I dont have a clue. Ive had trouble in my own personal life for years, and i dont have a clue why god would allow that to happen to me either. If my dreams and desires and urges and hopes are all God speaking, which is what i believe, why the years of struggle and depression and sadness and confusion? I dont have any idea. maybe its the struggle to define oneself and the struggle and suffering to acheive ones own happiness and the slow climb of that, that ultimately when we do acheive our goal and dream that we can say we worked tirelessly to acheieve it. beyond that i dont know. Eckhart Tolle has suggested that he feels violence and death and murder and sadness and all the bad things in the world exist so we can become who we truely are.
You hit it right on the head with this one sentence, "But you must believe God is there, no one can help you with your beliefs but you and God."
Trust me... I have heard this response many, many times from many, many different people. You are not enlightening me to anything new. This is the very same advice that mainstream religions have told me for many, many years.
...
This is what I have been trying to convey to you. Belief is belief. Belief is not knowledge.
Hail, Hail!!!
I speak of my beliefs and experience with God.
God enlightened me, I had no choice but to believe from my enlightenment.
Perhaps the same will come to you.
Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part...
If someone were to know God. Isn't that enlightenment? The person who knows God is an enlightened one... isn't he/she?
Whether you are one individual that subscribes to one belief, based on personal experience... or a global religion with millions of followers... the basic doctrine of 'Ask, and ye shall recieve' remains the same.
...
And again, this is the point I have been trying to make to you throughout this discussion:
"I speak of my beliefs and experience with God. "
Hail, Hail!!!
I'm kinda sort of in the same boat as you are... with my belief being the duality of good and evil in the world as both part of the same equation. Yes, the sunrise in the desert is extremly beautiful and awe-inspiring... but, the desert is a formidible and extremly hostile environment. Same goes for the ocean.... both beautiful and deadly at the same time. I mean, try to live in the desert with only what God gave you and see how long you last... or get dropped off in the middle of the ocean.
I guess that is the duality of man... being a creature of Nature... that is capable of acts of kindness and charity, and cruelty and greed.
God created a place to live.... for a brief period. It's pretty much up to us... what we do with our time... in our world.
Hail, Hail!!!
The basic premise that is assumed here is that Atheists are not good people.
My take... live a good life. Be kind to people, just because... not becaue you are hedging your bets just in case there is some sort of reward that may or may not be there afterwards. The results being:
A. There is a God and He accepts you for who you are and what you have done with your life and does not demand your worship of Him.
B. There is a God and He is spiteful because you did not worship Him. Is that kind of unjust God worthy of any worship?
C. There is no God. You are dead and gone, but you leave a lasting memory on the lives you have touched.
Hail, Hail!!!
What does God mean to you? If anything? Thats the only definition anyone should need . In my opinion.
( see what I did there folks? I followed my own suggestion from earlier)
Not today Sir, Probably not tomorrow.............................................. bayfront arena st. pete '94
you're finally here and I'm a mess................................................... nationwide arena columbus '10
memories like fingerprints are slowly raising.................................... first niagara center buffalo '13
another man ..... moved by sleight of hand...................................... joe louis arena detroit '14
Cuz if we don't, we're going to HELL. I thought everybody knew that. :roll:
If you want to know what "God" is, you're in the wrong thread.
THAT can be found in the
Who made Byrnzie? thread
It depends what you mean by 'God'.
My parents made me...unless there was something they weren't telling me? :think:
cyborg???
my parents made me too.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I thought Byrnzie was an inerent bot, but I met him recently and know he is real....:)
"People, what have you done? Locked Him in His golden cage... made Him bend to your religion... resurrected from the grave.
He is the god of nothing, if that's all that you can see.
You are the god of everything... He's inside you and me.
So, lean upon Him gently and don't call on Him to save you from your social graces and the sins you used to waive. The bloody Church of England, in chains of history, requests your earthly presence at the vicarage for tea. And the graven image you-know-who with His plastic crucifix (he's got him fixed) confuses me as to who and where and why as to how he gets his kicks. Confessing to the endless sin, the endless whining sounds.
You'll be praying till next Thursday to all the gods that you can count."
Hail, Hail!!!
to me this is not belief. it is fear of the unknown. people who believe in an almighty believe for different reasons, but I cannot fathom believing in something merely as a key. that to me says you don't really believe. you say your prayers, tell god you believe, when you don't really.
believing for the sole purpose of personal gain is not belief. IMHO.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
too many to count.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014