Morality Without God

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  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    edited July 2011
    pandora wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    I don't think you should pick words apart so much.

    But that's the problem. The word 'God', as you've so far explained it, is just that; a word.
    No Bynzie its not just a word... I think it is to you, though.
    I have posted what God is to me but you have chosen not to try and understand what He is to me and how He makes me feel or how He came to be in my life.

    We all have choices.

    Could it perhaps be that you're confusing compassion, or empathy with others, for something you've imagined as being external that you've decided to call 'God'?
    Post edited by Byrnzie on
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Could it maybe be that you're confusing compassion, or empathy with others, for something you've imagined as being external that you've decided to call 'God'?
    Confusing emotions with knowledge, no Byrnzie that I am not.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pandora wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Could it maybe be that you're confusing compassion, or empathy with others, for something you've imagined as being external that you've decided to call 'God'?
    Confusing emotions with knowledge, no Byrnzie that I am not.

    Compassion and empathy aren't emotions.
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Could it maybe be that you're confusing compassion, or empathy with others, for something you've imagined as being external that you've decided to call 'God'?
    Confusing emotions with knowledge, no Byrnzie that I am not.

    Compassion and empathy aren't emotions.

    I can't speak for Pandora, but some people consider God to be love, compassion and empathy.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Could it maybe be that you're confusing compassion, or empathy with others, for something you've imagined as being external that you've decided to call 'God'?
    Confusing emotions with knowledge, no Byrnzie that I am not.

    Compassion and empathy aren't emotions.
    stuck on the words again perhaps

    "To show empathy is to identify with another's feelings. It is to emotionally put yourself in the place of another. The ability to empathize is directly dependent on your ability to feel your own feelings and identify them.

    If you have never felt a certain feeling, it will be hard for you to understand how another person is feeling. This holds equally true for pleasure and pain. If, for example, you have never put your hand in a flame, you will not know the pain of fire. If you have not experienced sexual passion, you will not understand its power. Similarly, if you have never felt rebellious or defiant, you will not understand those feelings. Reading about a feeling and intellectually knowing about it is very different than actually experiencing it for yourself.

    Among those with an equal level of innate emotional intelligence, the person who has actually experienced the widest range and variety of feelings -- the great depths of depression and the heights of fulfillment, for example, -- is the one who is most able to empathize with the greatest number of people from all walks of life. On the other hand, when we say that someone "can't relate" to other people, it is likely because they haven't experienced, acknowledged or accepted many feelings of their own.



    I have experienced God.
  • cincybearcat
    cincybearcat Posts: 16,895
    Byrnzie wrote:
    First in a Series:

    Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7xt5LtgsxQ

    Morality 1: Good without gods

    This video refutes the claim that some people make that atheists cannot possibly be moral since god and morality are intertwined in their minds

    Some people claim that morality is dependent upon religion, that atheists cannot possibly be moral since god and morality are intertwined (well, in their minds). Unfortunately, this is one way that religious people dehumanise atheists who have a logical way of thinking about what constitutes moral social behaviour. More than simply being a (incorrect) definition in the Oxford dictionary, morality is actually the main subject of many philosophers' intellectual lives. This video, the first of a multi-part series, begins this discussion by defining morality and then moving on to look at six hypothetical cultures and their beliefs.

    Very interesting. I've had this discussion with my wife on several occasions as we are raising a little girl. We (wife and I) were both raised going to church. I stopped sometime around 12 years old, my wife continued through high school. We've since attended church only a handful of times together. I'm not a big fan, she thinks it's something we should do but doesn't push it.

    To this point we have not taken our daughter to any church other than for weddings. I do believe that religion practiced the way I feel it was meant does provide a very easy method for instilling values and morals. However, this can be done through the very simple, "how would you like to be treated" method in my opinion as well. There are no stories to help you remember the lesson other than the life stories you experience. So far so good.

    Thanks for the link.
    hippiemom = goodness
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    pandora wrote:

    stuck on the words again perhaps

    "To show empathy is to identify with another's feelings. It is to emotionally put yourself in the place of another. The ability to empathize is directly dependent on your ability to feel your own feelings and identify them.

    If you have never felt a certain feeling, it will be hard for you to understand how another person is feeling. This holds equally true for pleasure and pain. If, for example, you have never put your hand in a flame, you will not know the pain of fire. If you have not experienced sexual passion, you will not understand its power. Similarly, if you have never felt rebellious or defiant, you will not understand those feelings. Reading about a feeling and intellectually knowing about it is very different than actually experiencing it for yourself.

    Among those with an equal level of innate emotional intelligence, the person who has actually experienced the widest range and variety of feelings -- the great depths of depression and the heights of fulfillment, for example, -- is the one who is most able to empathize with the greatest number of people from all walks of life. On the other hand, when we say that someone "can't relate" to other people, it is likely because they haven't experienced, acknowledged or accepted many feelings of their own.



    I have experienced God.

    I like to look at it as "You've experienced what you call God". Everyone has their own ideas about theology and no one is wrong. But no one's right either. That's why the argument is endless.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    edited July 2011
    Jeanwah wrote:
    pandora wrote:

    stuck on the words again perhaps

    "To show empathy is to identify with another's feelings. It is to emotionally put yourself in the place of another. The ability to empathize is directly dependent on your ability to feel your own feelings and identify them.

    If you have never felt a certain feeling, it will be hard for you to understand how another person is feeling. This holds equally true for pleasure and pain. If, for example, you have never put your hand in a flame, you will not know the pain of fire. If you have not experienced sexual passion, you will not understand its power. Similarly, if you have never felt rebellious or defiant, you will not understand those feelings. Reading about a feeling and intellectually knowing about it is very different than actually experiencing it for yourself.

    Among those with an equal level of innate emotional intelligence, the person who has actually experienced the widest range and variety of feelings -- the great depths of depression and the heights of fulfillment, for example, -- is the one who is most able to empathize with the greatest number of people from all walks of life. On the other hand, when we say that someone "can't relate" to other people, it is likely because they haven't experienced, acknowledged or accepted many feelings of their own.



    I have experienced God.

    I like to look at it as "You've experienced what you call God". Everyone has their own ideas about theology and no one is wrong. But no one's right either. That's why the argument is endless.
    There should be only understanding and acceptance Jean...
    live and let live and love.
    One's basic beliefs should not be challenged yet time and again they are.
    I do not care if someone believes or not but it seems some people do
    and want to challenge and dismiss.

    For me God has nothing to do with religion or theology.
    If there were no religions God would still be with us.

    Because He has not been found does not mean He is not here.

    Someone said something about the world being flat ...
    God is discovered, experienced one day by everyone :D

    Those who are inquisitive can ask to be shown.
    Post edited by pandora on
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    morals are an innate part of the human mind. and since, in my opinion, god didn't make us, at least not on purpose, he has nothing to do with morality.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    morals are an innate part of the human mind. and since, in my opinion, god didn't make us, at least not on purpose, he has nothing to do with morality.
    God has nothing to do with morality, I totally agree with that.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    pandora wrote:
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    morals are an innate part of the human mind. and since, in my opinion, god didn't make us, at least not on purpose, he has nothing to do with morality.
    God has nothing to do with morality, I totally agree with that.

    no kidding. he's one to talk. he admits in the commandments that he's a jealous god, for crying out loud. how moral is that? :lol:
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • hostis
    hostis Posts: 441
    "There should be only understanding and acceptance Jean... live and let live and love. One's basic beliefs should not be challenged yet time and again they are. I do not care if someone believes or not but it seems some people do and want to challenge and dismiss."

    Actually, can I wade in here...

    there is nothing wrong with being challenged about what you believe in and the sort of person you are. this can always help to reinforce that you still believe the same and and the same person. what is not right, ever, is to believe that just because someone else believes in something you dont that they are wrong... yes, they may be wrong in your eyes but they are never wrong in theirs. perception is wholly individual.

    I dont believe in god, I dont believe in a higher power, I dont believe anything happens when you die apart from "nothing". I would love to be proven wrong but its just how I believe. yet people who go to chruch, believe in god, pray etc. good, go for it. enjoy it. its all about what you need to do to get through the day and be a better person...
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    hostis wrote:
    "There should be only understanding and acceptance Jean... live and let live and love. One's basic beliefs should not be challenged yet time and again they are. I do not care if someone believes or not but it seems some people do and want to challenge and dismiss."

    Actually, can I wade in here...

    there is nothing wrong with being challenged about what you believe in and the sort of person you are. this can always help to reinforce that you still believe the same and and the same person. what is not right, ever, is to believe that just because someone else believes in something you dont that they are wrong... yes, they may be wrong in your eyes but they are never wrong in theirs. perception is wholly individual.

    I dont believe in god, I dont believe in a higher power, I dont believe anything happens when you die apart from "nothing". I would love to be proven wrong but its just how I believe. yet people who go to chruch, believe in god, pray etc. good, go for it. enjoy it. its all about what you need to do to get through the day and be a better person...

    :clap: perfect post.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Jeanwah
    Jeanwah Posts: 6,363
    hostis wrote:
    "There should be only understanding and acceptance Jean... live and let live and love. One's basic beliefs should not be challenged yet time and again they are. I do not care if someone believes or not but it seems some people do and want to challenge and dismiss."

    Actually, can I wade in here...

    there is nothing wrong with being challenged about what you believe in and the sort of person you are. this can always help to reinforce that you still believe the same and and the same person. what is not right, ever, is to believe that just because someone else believes in something you dont that they are wrong... yes, they may be wrong in your eyes but they are never wrong in theirs. perception is wholly individual.

    I dont believe in god, I dont believe in a higher power, I dont believe anything happens when you die apart from "nothing". I would love to be proven wrong but its just how I believe. yet people who go to chruch, believe in god, pray etc. good, go for it. enjoy it. its all about what you need to do to get through the day and be a better person...

    Great post. Completely agree. This is what I was trying to get across to you, Pandora.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Jeanwah wrote:
    hostis wrote:
    "There should be only understanding and acceptance Jean... live and let live and love. One's basic beliefs should not be challenged yet time and again they are. I do not care if someone believes or not but it seems some people do and want to challenge and dismiss."

    Actually, can I wade in here...

    there is nothing wrong with being challenged about what you believe in and the sort of person you are. this can always help to reinforce that you still believe the same and and the same person. what is not right, ever, is to believe that just because someone else believes in something you dont that they are wrong... yes, they may be wrong in your eyes but they are never wrong in theirs. perception is wholly individual.

    I dont believe in god, I dont believe in a higher power, I dont believe anything happens when you die apart from "nothing". I would love to be proven wrong but its just how I believe. yet people who go to chruch, believe in god, pray etc. good, go for it. enjoy it. its all about what you need to do to get through the day and be a better person...

    Great post. Completely agree. This is what I was trying to get across to you, Pandora.

    Yes we should never chastise another for their beliefs. We should be open and loving...
    the point I was making to Jean.

    We all have our path we must walk, I respect the choices of others
    and their beliefs and admire many and hope for the same respect.

    Our very basic beliefs for those who are emotionally connected to themselves,
    are in our core and do not change though when challenged.

    My post about empathy pretty much sums it up... understanding comes from personal experience.

    Until you experience something you may not understand
    but we can still accept and embrace our differences with love and compassion.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    pandora wrote:
    ...
    If there were no religions there would still be God.
    ...


    so youre saying God has always been with us... that something we came to identify as God has always been with us? and that something is love? when did this emotion called love come to be identified?

    please dont think im trying to bait you or belittle what it is you believe, i just have a massive problem with the God concept. i understand its origins and that of religions(which i know you dont equate with God) and i understand its continued allure. but what i dont get is no matter how much i want to believe, belief in God still eludes me, though love does not.
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pandora wrote:
    I have experienced God.

    So you keep saying. Yet you're incapable of explaining to anyone what this means. You may just as well say 'I have experienced bananas'.
  • catefrances
    catefrances Posts: 29,003
    i have experienced bananas. 8-)
    hear my name
    take a good look
    this could be the day
    hold my hand
    lie beside me
    i just need to say
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    catefrances wrote:
    i have experienced bananas. 8-)

    Actually, this makes more sense. Because at least bananas aren't just a figment of our imaginations.

    I know Bananas and They are great and I am thankful to know them.
  • hostis
    hostis Posts: 441
    Byrnzie wrote:
    catefrances wrote:
    i have experienced bananas. 8-)

    Actually, this makes more sense. Because at least bananas aren't just a figment of our imaginations.

    I know Bananas and They are great and I am thankful to know them.

    Byrnzie. why have you not experienced God. and can you prove it please.

    or alternatively, stop goading, questioning and cajoling....

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