Morality Without God

ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
edited August 2011 in A Moving Train
First in a Series:

Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... 7xt5LtgsxQ

Morality 1: Good without gods

This video refutes the claim that some people make that atheists cannot possibly be moral since god and morality are intertwined in their minds

Some people claim that morality is dependent upon religion, that atheists cannot possibly be moral since god and morality are intertwined (well, in their minds). Unfortunately, this is one way that religious people dehumanise atheists who have a logical way of thinking about what constitutes moral social behaviour. More than simply being a (incorrect) definition in the Oxford dictionary, morality is actually the main subject of many philosophers' intellectual lives. This video, the first of a multi-part series, begins this discussion by defining morality and then moving on to look at six hypothetical cultures and their beliefs.
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Comments

  • PontikasPontikas Posts: 210
    thanks. i will watch this.
  • I've met very few "moral" christians.

    People always used to point to Mother Theresa as the most "moral" person in the world. I have a friend from Bombay who would disagree since she would intentionally deny access to birth control for women asking for it... But I digress.

    I always point them to her diaries that were released after her death that showed that Mother Theresa didn't believe if God. It hurt her to admit she had never actually "felt" any connection to her religion.

    She did what she did not because she was afraid of God but because she thought it was the right thing to do.

    Cool, eh?
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    I've met very few "moral" christians.

    People always used to point to Mother Theresa as the most "moral" person in the world. I have a friend from Bombay who would disagree since she would intentionally deny access to birth control for women asking for it... But I digress.

    I always point them to her diaries that were released after her death that showed that Mother Theresa didn't believe if God. It hurt her to admit she had never actually "felt" any connection to her religion.

    She did what she did not because she was afraid of God but because she thought it was the right thing to do.

    Cool, eh?

    :thumbup: (Though I don't know why this little yellow emoticon man is grinning like a freak on acid. It's possible to give a thumbs-up while keeping a straight face. I'd like to meet this little yellow emoticon man and slap him top-side-of-the-head).
  • LikeAnOceanLikeAnOcean Posts: 7,718
    You don't need God to be moral. Treat others how you want to be treated, so in other words, don't be an asshole.

    Morals are just basic human guidelines that the mentally stable folk already follow.
  • Gob wrote:
    don't be an asshole.


    Oh.

    Well then.

    kinda counts me out, doesn't it?
  • know1know1 Posts: 6,794
    I'm religious and I don't think for one second that a person can't have morality without religion. I'm kind of surprised there's even a debate.
    The only people we should try to get even with...
    ...are those who've helped us.

    Right 'round the corner could be bigger than ourselves.
  • Godfather.Godfather. Posts: 12,504
    know1 wrote:
    I'm religious and I don't think for one second that a person can't have morality without religion. I'm kind of surprised there's even a debate.

    this site is full of people that think they have it all figured out,it's all good.
    your response is on the money !

    Godfather.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    I believe in God and try to live by the golden rule and not judge others...
    this my religion

    I don't think about who believes or who doesn't...
    thats a non issue.
    Treat everyone with the love and the respect they deserve as human beings.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pandora wrote:
    Treat everyone with the love and the respect they deserve as human beings.

    Not everyone deserves love and respect.

    I.e, there are people in this world who have engineered wars that have seen the deaths of millions. These people don't deserve any more love or respect than a concentration camp guard deserves, in my opinion.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Treat everyone with the love and the respect they deserve as human beings.

    Not everyone deserves love and respect.
    thats what you say thats not what I believe... but I see where you go with this.

    A now famous young woman who's name I will not say,
    most think she does not deserve love and respect....
    I am angered too and fighting off hatred.

    We were all children once, learning what we learned, helpless,
    we were molded in the wrong ways.
    But we can change.... she can change.

    I feel everyone deserves understanding and love.
    That might just make a difference in who they are
    and perhaps over time they can earn respect.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Treat everyone with the love and the respect they deserve as human beings.

    Not everyone deserves love and respect.

    I.e, there are people in this world who have engineered wars that have seen the deaths of millions. These people don't deserve any more love or respect than a concentration camp guard deserves, in my opinion.
    Evil is your example ... I believe evil exists.
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Religious morality is just the expression of a certain type of morals.

    The ethic of reciprocity (golden/silver rule to some) is an ancient philosophical concept dealing with basic humanity and social interaction. As such, this 'rule' would naturally be integrated in many organised religions - some may see then see this as a 'god' thing though there is absolutely no reason for it to be exclusive to 'god'.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pandora wrote:
    Evil is your example ... I believe evil exists.

    I don't. Evil is just a religious word that's used to describe a kind of base, depraved behaviour and/or complete lack of empathy for others. That's all.
  • BlockheadBlockhead Posts: 1,538
    Morality is all subjective.
  • Thoughts_ArriveThoughts_Arrive Melbourne, Australia Posts: 15,165
    Commadus is not a moral man.
    Adelaide 17/11/2009, Melbourne 20/11/2009, Sydney 22/11/2009, Melbourne (Big Day Out Festival) 24/01/2014
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Evil is your example ... I believe evil exists.

    I don't. Evil is just a religious word that's used to describe a kind of base, depraved behaviour and/or complete lack of empathy for others. That's all.
    I don't think it is religious. I think Evil is a phenomenon.. just like God.

    A power, I've felt it, like love and it guides just as love does.

    No religion to it
    but those who don't believe in God make it all about religion
    because that is easier to shun, ridicule, dissect, understand ... instead of just feel.

    When there are no religions there will still be the power that is God.
  • shadowcastshadowcast Posts: 2,231
    It was said in the post before and I believe Ed & Stone came up with this. All we need is one commandment.....Don't be an asshole.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pandora wrote:
    those who don't believe in God make it all about religion
    because that is easier to shun, ridicule, dissect, understand ... instead of just feel.

    When there are no religions there will still be the power that is God.

    It depends what you mean by 'God'. You say God is a power. Is that as far as it goes? Care to elaborate?
  • FlaggFlagg Posts: 5,856
    Commadus is not a moral man.

    Nice. :lol:
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  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    Evil is your example ... I believe evil exists.

    I don't. Evil is just a religious word that's used to describe a kind of base, depraved behaviour and/or complete lack of empathy for others. That's all.

    I don't think it's a particularly religious word, though religious writings sure like to use it. For religious purposes it's used for all that opposes 'god' and his ways (except Buddhism). From a 'normal' point of view, evil can represent so many different things - is it a person (someone fundamentally evil - what is that?)? Is it a particular act that is evil (though what may seem evil to one, is not to the other)? Is is just another word for bad? Antonym for good? Whilst some acts may be universally considered evil, would 'common' evil not be defined by one's cultural environment (in the same manner as good or 'moral')? Some cultures don't even have 'evil' in their language - something more like 'out of sync'!

    We then go down the 'morals' route - what is good or what is bad? And for whom?

    Edit: made me look up the etymology for 'evil'. Yep... seems the origin of the word meant nothing more than 'uppity'. Over the millenia, the meaning of it got more and more sinister to it's current most common meaning of "extreme moral wickedness" (from the 18th century). "It seems theologians have had considerable influence upon shaping words to cause us to see according to their doctrines rather than what is plainly written." So maybe, in a way, you are right Steve - the word itself is not religious, but the meaning has been shaped by theology.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    those who don't believe in God make it all about religion
    because that is easier to shun, ridicule, dissect, understand ... instead of just feel.

    When there are no religions there will still be the power that is God.

    It depends what you mean by 'God'. You say God is a power. Is that as far as it goes? Care to elaborate?

    Nothing complex is ever simple except when it comes to God's love.

    I feel God is a guiding intelligent power based in love.
    Unconditional love that we, as humans, have not yet achieved.

    I know nothing of man made religions, they don't speak to me
    but I respect those who find solace there and admire their commitment.

    I know God and He is great and I am thankful to know him.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pandora wrote:
    I feel God is a guiding intelligent power based in love.

    I know God and He is great and I am thankful to know him.

    Him?
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Back to the subject though

    Of course there is good without God.

    Of course people have morals without religion and some with religion have none.

    It is as individual as the individual .. why we should not judge
    and why we should live and let live and love.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    I feel God is a guiding intelligent power based in love.

    I know God and He is great and I am thankful to know him.

    Him?
    knew that was coming :lol:

    I like that better than IT that is all :D
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    redrock wrote:
    I don't think it's a particularly religious word, though religious writings sure like to use it. For religious purposes it's used for all that opposes 'god' and his ways (except Buddhism). From a 'normal' point of view, evil can represent so many different things - is it a person (someone fundamentally evil - what is that?)? Is it a particular act that is evil (though what may seem evil to one, is not to the other)? Is is just another word for bad? Antonym for good? Whilst some acts may be universally considered evil, would 'common' evil not be defined by one's cultural environment (in the same manner as good or 'moral')? Some cultures don't even have 'evil' in their language - something more like 'out of sync'!

    We then go down the 'morals' route - what is good or what is bad? And for whom?

    Edit: made me look up the etymology for 'evil'. Yep... seems the origin of the word meant nothing more than 'uppity'. Over the millenia, the meaning of it got more and more sinister to it's current most common meaning of "extreme moral wickedness" (from the 18th century). "It seems theologians have had considerable influence upon shaping words to cause us to see according to their doctrines rather than what is plainly written." So maybe, in a way, you are right Steve - the word itself is not religious, but the meaning has been shaped by theology.

    I'm no expert as I didn't study ethics when I did my philosophy degree, but mostly it just seems like common sense to me.
  • ByrnzieByrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pandora wrote:
    It is as individual as the individual .. why we should not judge
    and why we should live and let live and love.

    So you'd excuse Joseph Goebbels then?
  • redrockredrock Posts: 18,341
    Byrnzie wrote:
    I'm no expert as I didn't study ethics when I did my philosophy degree, but mostly it just seems like common sense to me.

    Even if you didn't focus a bit more on ethics (various cultures, etc.), you know that there are so many train of thoughts anyway that this question of good/evil, morals with or without god has been debated in so many different ways, with each 'school' of thoughts' having the 'answer' (or admitting there is none!).

    I still believe that one doesn't need a 'power above' to guide your life. If one finds a need for this in order to live a 'good' life, then so be it. If some need a 'god' to be good, some can do this of their 'own free will'.
  • pandorapandora Posts: 21,855
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    It is as individual as the individual .. why we should not judge
    and why we should live and let live and love.

    So you'd excuse Joseph Goebbels then?
    runs to google :lol:

    Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1968-101-20A_Joseph_Goebbels.jpg
    He doesn't look very happy does he?

    When I see people who have lived their life like this man
    I wonder how and why he chose his ways.

    As a small child was he without love?

    Did he learn to hate?

    Was he mentally ill?

    Was he born evil or let evil in?

    It's not up to me or you to forgive but we have an opportunity to learn.
  • JeanwahJeanwah Posts: 6,363
    redrock wrote:
    I don't think it's a particularly religious word, though religious writings sure like to use it. For religious purposes it's used for all that opposes 'god' and his ways (except Buddhism). From a 'normal' point of view, evil can represent so many different things - is it a person (someone fundamentally evil - what is that?)? Is it a particular act that is evil (though what may seem evil to one, is not to the other)? Is is just another word for bad? Antonym for good? Whilst some acts may be universally considered evil, would 'common' evil not be defined by one's cultural environment (in the same manner as good or 'moral')? Some cultures don't even have 'evil' in their language - something more like 'out of sync'!

    We then go down the 'morals' route - what is good or what is bad? And for whom?

    Edit: made me look up the etymology for 'evil'. Yep... seems the origin of the word meant nothing more than 'uppity'. Over the millenia, the meaning of it got more and more sinister to it's current most common meaning of "extreme moral wickedness" (from the 18th century). "It seems theologians have had considerable influence upon shaping words to cause us to see according to their doctrines rather than what is plainly written." So maybe, in a way, you are right Steve - the word itself is not religious, but the meaning has been shaped by theology.

    Yeah, I prefer the word "ethical" over "moral" myself, since religion has seemed to have adopted the word. And religious folks do tend to use it as ammo a lot when judging others' behavior. It's something I find ridiculous because many people in my experience shout morality when their own behavior shouts hypocrisy.
  • Jason PJason P Posts: 19,157
    I think your morality is influenced by outside forces, but overall it comes from within. For instance, if you have a negative demeanor, a positive influence can keep evil at bay, but a negative influence could turn a person into a monster.

    Religion, for the most part, is a positive influence in most people's lives and it sets guild lines and expectations for acceptable behavior. But just because someone isn't religious, it's foolish to think that they don't know the differences between right and wrong, good and evil.
    Be Excellent To Each Other
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