Morality Without God

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  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    pandora wrote:
    You speak to me like you know me... you do not.

    interesting that you say that......look back at your post about Byrnzie about him not understanding and all that....you speak about him like you know him. I said nothing about presuming to know you. I only spoke about the posts you make in this (and a previous) thread.

    then you go about pulling your passive/aggressive stuff about "well you don't know God like I do, you don't understand" then turn around and say "I don't care what you believe" when someone asks you about it. It's laughable. if you want to make a point, stick with it.

    And Godfather, no one is jumping on the "believer" because of what she believes, because, quite frankly, I have no idea what she believes. It's like talking to a barstool prophet. And you don't know what I believe, either. I am a believer, just not in the same context as you, but unfortunately, if I don't believe what you do, then I believe in nothing of substance apparently, and that's the problem.

    I believe in a force, you can call it god if you wish, but I don't. There is no being that has the power to answer prayer, there is no being that created us in his image, and all that stuff. There is no being that I speak to in time of need.

    Nature is my god. Mother Earth is my god. No white beard. No holy spirit or son. Just what we see. The wonder all around us.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    My father gave me a book when I was a teenager called YOUR GOD IS TOO SMALL by J.B. Phillips. The thing I remember about this book was Phillips' idea that as soon as you try to define God in human terms, you've made her/him/it too small. That really makes sense to me. I think of God as mystery. No mystery, no god. And my favorite reference for that mystery is the marvel of nature- for example, the fact that a teaspoon of productive soil generally contains between 100 million and 1 billion bacteria, all living beings.

    Or this: the fact that thoughts are electrical impulses (consisting of those marvelous acytelcholine assited leaps across your synapses)- energy that eminates out from your brain and goes out into space and (assuming the theory of space curviture to be true) those thoughts will return here eons from now. I Suppose you could say that things like karma or heaven are really just thoughts. I try to remember as often as possible to think mostly good thoughts, be kind. A few million years from now, I'll be glad I did.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    I believe in a force...The wonder all around us.

    This is closer to my own view of things, if anyone was wondering.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    brianlux wrote:
    Or this: the fact that thoughts are electrical impulses (consisting of those marvelous acytelcholine assited leaps across your synapses)- energy that eminates out from your brain and goes out into space and (assuming the theory of space curviture to be true) those thoughts will return here eons from now. I Suppose you could say that things like karma or heaven are really just thoughts. I try to remember as often as possible to think mostly good thoughts, be kind. A few million years from now, I'll be glad I did.

    you just blew my mind. 8-)
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    brianlux wrote:
    Or this: the fact that thoughts are electrical impulses (consisting of those marvelous acytelcholine assited leaps across your synapses)- energy that eminates out from your brain and goes out into space and (assuming the theory of space curviture to be true) those thoughts will return here eons from now. I Suppose you could say that things like karma or heaven are really just thoughts. I try to remember as often as possible to think mostly good thoughts, be kind. A few million years from now, I'll be glad I did.

    you just blew my mind. 8-)


    Not to worry, it'll come back around again. :D
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    Where is my mind?

    Way out in the water
    see it swimming?
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Where is my mind?

    Way out in the water
    see it swimming?

    Your head will collapse if there's nothing in it...
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    redrock wrote:
    Byrnzie wrote:
    Where is my mind?

    Way out in the water
    see it swimming?

    Your head will collapse if there's nothing in it...

    That's why I keep stuffing my face with kung po chicken and ice-cream.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Hugh Freaking Dillon wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    You speak to me like you know me... you do not.

    interesting that you say that......look back at your post about Byrnzie about him not understanding and all that....you speak about him like you know him. I said nothing about presuming to know you. I only spoke about the posts you make in this (and a previous) thread.

    then you go about pulling your passive/aggressive stuff about "well you don't know God like I do, you don't understand" then turn around and say "I don't care what you believe" when someone asks you about it. It's laughable. if you want to make a point, stick with it.

    And Godfather, no one is jumping on the "believer" because of what she believes, because, quite frankly, I have no idea what she believes. It's like talking to a barstool prophet. And you don't know what I believe, either. I am a believer, just not in the same context as you, but unfortunately, if I don't believe what you do, then I believe in nothing of substance apparently, and that's the problem.

    I believe in a force, you can call it god if you wish, but I don't. There is no being that has the power to answer prayer, there is no being that created us in his image, and all that stuff. There is no being that I speak to in time of need.

    Nature is my god. Mother Earth is my god. No white beard. No holy spirit or son. Just what we see. The wonder all around us.
    Even after I explained what I thought God was to me Byrnzie did not understand
    actually he called it bullshit, that is how respectful of others beliefs he is.

    You do speak to me like you know me because you assumed I could not understand your beliefs.

    That is a presumption. And although you say in your post 'with all due respect' you are incredibly disrespectful and judgmental putting me and my beliefs down.
    But I bet you do not see that.

    All I have said when people have asked is and I'm not just throwing it out there or trying to convince anyone ... they ask


    My basic belief...One must experience God for themselves... Go ask him who He is and what He is.


    Why would you think I care about yours or anyone elses beliefs...
    many seem to be interested in mine which I just don't get.

    As I have said I have many people of all beliefs in my life that I love
    and my basic belief would not allow me to change any of them even if I wanted to which I don't.

    Your belief seems to go against religion
    which I too believe God did, would, will, exist without religion
    Some people believe strongly in their religion and that is a good thing, they need that,
    I admire them and accept their beliefs and would not put them down for believing
    in them.

    Mother nature is the only thing I will miss when I leave this world
    because that I can not take that with me.
    Her beauty is only the here and now.
    Love transcends all space and time though and is mine to keep on my path
    as I journey on.

    Barstool prophets.. do not dismiss them as you do hippies...
    they just might be a friend someday and you may learn something from your experience with them.

    And in my opinion... mine only ... which I am entitled to ...
    your actions tell me you could be a kinder gentler soul.

    This I derived from the way you treat me and others here.
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    "My basic belief...One must experience God for themselves... Go ask him who He is and what He is."

    Pandora, I'm not sure I understand the concept of God as having a gender. Please see my post above re, J.B. Phillips' Your God is too Small.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    brianlux wrote:
    "My basic belief...One must experience God for themselves... Go ask him who He is and what He is."

    Pandora, I'm not sure I understand the concept of God as having a gender. Please see my post above re, J.B. Phillips' Your God is too Small.
    I will ... thank you you for sharing :D

    This is comfortable for me... when I hear His words, I have always imagined a
    generous and loving spirit and yes like my father ... a Him but of course there is no gender.
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pandora wrote:
    This is comfortable for me... when I hear His words, I have always imagined a
    generous and loving spirit and yes like my father ... a Him but of course there is no gender.

    So there's no contradiction there then. :?

    By the way, why do you need things to be comfortable for you?
    Have you not ever considered challenging your 'beliefs', or letting others challenge them?
  • brianlux
    brianlux Moving through All Kinds of Terrain. Posts: 43,677
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    This is comfortable for me... when I hear His words, I have always imagined a
    generous and loving spirit and yes like my father ... a Him but of course there is no gender.

    So there's no contradiction there then. :?

    By the way, why do you need things to be comfortable for you?
    Have you not ever considered challenging your 'beliefs', or letting others challenge them?

    Your idea here, Byrnzie, is very close to something I just read in Sara Maitland's book, A Book of Silence. On page 143 she quotes a Quaker (aka the Religious Society of Friends) friend of hers. The friend is talking here about some of the characterisctics of Quaker meetings:

    "A lot of times people minister in rather obvious preaching-to-the-converted kinds of ways. But is being gathered about sameness of opinion? Isn't true gatheredness about being able to articulate and bridge difference. Perhaps both the gatherdness and fragmentation are true at once and the meeting is an attempt to cultivate the former."

    My reason for posting this quote is not to promote Quakerism (but if I had to pick a particular faith, the Quaker involement in social work- the abolition of slavery, women's suffrage, prison reform, pacifism, mental health care- would certainly put this practice toward the top of my list). This quote relates marvelously to a lot of what we say here on PJ forum, particularly on A Moving Train. It seems to me that there is a kind of continual disjointedness in many of our posts... but something must be working right because here we are-- gathered, so-to-speak-- yet again.
    "It's a sad and beautiful world"
    -Roberto Benigni

  • ONCE DEVIDED
    ONCE DEVIDED Posts: 1,131
    pandora wrote:
    I believe in God and try to live by the golden rule and not judge others...
    this my religion

    I don't think about who believes or who doesn't...
    thats a non issue.
    Treat everyone with the love and the respect they deserve as human beings.

    You like me are a Humanist
    I beleive in the power of humanity. we can do so much. help so much , care so much

    but at the same time we can hate
    AUSSIE AUSSIE AUSSIE
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    Byrnzie wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    This is comfortable for me... when I hear His words, I have always imagined a
    generous and loving spirit and yes like my father ... a Him but of course there is no gender.

    So there's no contradiction there then. :?

    By the way, why do you need things to be comfortable for you?
    Have you not ever considered challenging your 'beliefs', or letting others challenge them?
    I do not need to challenge something I know to be fact.
    There is no contradiction as this is what I am experiencing.
    But you may not understand this belief because you have not experienced what I have.
    Your beliefs come from what you have experienced.

    I will relay this one more time, not so you may understand
    but perhaps to close this discussion for me.

    15 years ago I experienced what I know to be a miracle.
    This remains unexplained by anyone in my life
    including people here,
    somewhat like God... unexplained phenomenon.
    Perhaps something that will be discovered and understood someday.
    I continue to experience this phenomenon regular.

    I asked for proof of God, "please show me you are there, I want to know."

    this I asked some months after I decided not to leave this world by my own hand.
    I decided to live for my children then 9 and 7.

    This sounds like an easy decision for some who have never experienced
    the depths of that kind of despair. It is not easy to choose life.

    It is much easier to say no than yes .... this also true with faith,
    it is much easier to say there is no God then yes, there is.

    This life was never meant to be easy, though,
    we are on a path of spiritual growth.

    I was shown God... and since then I know God is there for me.
    He always will be. I know there is an afterlife... I would now bet my life on it,
    and for the right reasons... I understand, I get it.

    I have experienced many events since, that prove this to me,
    including the saving of my son's life through prayer.
    A most needed and loved human, we are very much alike.
    Living without each other will be very hard.

    If I had not decided to live back in '93 he would most certainly have joined me.
    If I had not been there for him and supported him through prayer,
    during those times that his life was in turmoil, he would have passed.

    This is my life, not only a belief... it is what I live daily.

    No need for anyone to dissect, no need to dismiss, no need to challenge, no need to call it bullshit.
    No need for anyone to even understand, I am not asking them to nor wanting them to.
    They have their beliefs.

    And so I will depart from this discussion saying

    of course there is morality without believing in God.


    God is a friend that can guide and love through one's destiny.
    He bring souls together and we learn from this interaction.

    We are all connected and moving towards unconditional love....
    if God has anything to say about it and hopefully He does :D
  • Byrnzie
    Byrnzie Posts: 21,037
    pandora wrote:
    15 years ago I experienced what I know to be a miracle.
    This remains unexplained by anyone in my life
    including people here,
    somewhat like God... unexplained phenomenon.
    Perhaps something that will be discovered and understood someday.
    I continue to experience this phenomenon regular...

    I was shown God... and since then I know God is there for me.
    He always will be. I know there is an afterlife... I would now bet my life on it,
    and for the right reasons... I understand, I get it.

    I have experienced many events since, that prove this to me,
    including the saving of my son's life through prayer.
    A most needed and loved human, we are very much alike.
    Living without each other will be very hard...

    This is my life, not only a belief... it is what I live daily.

    O.k, now we're getting somewhere. This post actually makes some sense, finally.

    Not that I believe the 'God' part. But the 'unexplained phenomenon' bit makes sense - something like a positive force or energy, though nothing to do with any 'he' or 'him'. But I suppose you have your own interpretation of that.

    pandora wrote:
    No need for anyone to dissect, no need to dismiss, no need to challenge, no need to call it bullshit.
    No need for anyone to even understand, I am not asking them to nor wanting them to.
    They have their beliefs.

    You shouldn't be so quick to state what other people's needs are. Nobody asked you to post in this thread and mention these things. And If you really have no interest in what anyone else thinks about it - unless they automatically agree with you - then why bring the subject up in the first place?

    I think the reason some people have taken issue with some of your comments in this thread is that you talk about these things with an air of superiority, bordering on arrogance. You say that the experience you had is 'perhaps something that will be discovered and understood someday'. I hope it will too. Such experiences aren't wholly uncommon. Mystical experiences, out-of-body experiences e.t.c, have been happening for millenia.
    Just don't be so immediately dismissive of people who question and dissect. If you'd explained this experience better in the first place instead of dressing it with blanket, all-encompassing statements of 'fact', then this thread wouldn't now be eleven pages long.
  • hostis
    hostis Posts: 441
    don't bite, Pandora. It's not worth it.
    :)
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    My last experience with discussing this here was less than positive...
    different thread, different time.
    Unpleasant for me.

    Your thread here, I started out by saying I believed in the golden rule and I guess some of my posts caused you to get a bit riled up but I just tried to answer what you asked me without going into personal things.
    I was accused last time I shared my experience of being arrogant and self important. :?
    Again dismissing my experience entirely.

    This miracle is surrounded by sadness and pain and not only for me, but many I love.
    Not something that is easy to discuss.

    There is no superiority or arrogance and if you knew me that would be almost comical.
    Perception of each other here on the board falls upon the listener and that we can not change.

    The things that have happened to me in my life wouldn't, couldn't bring me to a superior status
    in anyones opinion, let alone my own. In fact quite the opposite.

    But I have found strength to forgive and live through knowing God and that probably shows,
    here I am, yes, comfortable in my faith.

    To non believers I am mistaken for a Christian .. a religious person, when it is God I answer to,
    not religion, and we are close.
    This has been a hill to climb here on the board,
    that and the fact I believe one must discover God for themselves through life experience.
    I can not help anyone find that faith.

    But I will go back to love, as I guess I always do, that I hope to help people find.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    hostis wrote:
    don't bite, Pandora. It's not worth it.
    :)
    :wave:
    the only thing that is worth anything is love :D

    thanks for being a friend
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    ONCE DEVIDED wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    I believe in God and try to live by the golden rule and not judge others...
    this my religion

    I don't think about who believes or who doesn't...
    thats a non issue.
    Treat everyone with the love and the respect they deserve as human beings.

    You like me are a Humanist
    I beleive in the power of humanity. we can do so much. help so much , care so much

    but at the same time we can hate
    thank you, you are right I believe in humanity!
    Hopefully hate will someday be an emotion of the past...
    it is not as strong as love but love takes more commitment, it's not always easy.

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