I did not need God to be good ... I have always been good.
I do not think that is what God necessarily does for a person.
I needed God to prove to me His existence because I needed to know.
I wanted to know my path to true happiness.
There are many self absorbed judgmental people who do not realize they are so.
Pick pick pick at others... forever negative, unhappy, unfulfilled.
They truly do not love others and really don't care to.
You don't need God to point this out but why do so many not see it or not care?
not see the lack of love for and the lack of acceptance of others.
We are all connected... your actions and choices affect mine,
we are one in the universe.
This is what having God can do for you if you are in need of it or want it.
You might see people and life in a very different light.
I did not need God to be good ... I have always been good.
I do not think that is what God necessarily does for a person.
I needed God to prove to me His existence because I needed to know.
I wanted to know my path to true happiness.
There are many self absorbed judgmental people who do not realize they are so.
Pick pick pick at others... forever negative, unhappy, unfulfilled.
They truly do not love others and really don't care to.
You don't need God to point this out but why do so many not see it or not care?
not see the lack of love for and the lack of acceptance of others.
We are all connected... your actions and choices affect mine,
we are one in the universe.
This is what having God can do for you if you are in need of it or want it.
You might see people and life in a very different light.
Having God with me has enriched my life
I still have no idea what you're on about.
What do you mean 'God' proved to you 'His' existence? What do you mean you have 'God with you'? Are you trying to say that you have some sort of special relationship with a superior being that us lesser mortals have yet to experience in our ignorance?
Personally, I have no need of some imaginary transcendental being called 'God'. My allegiance is with the Earth.
I don't base my perspective on the World on a 2000 year old synthetic Middle Eastern cult. If anything, I see myself as a pagan...of the Earth, and For the Earth.
Personally, I have no need of some imaginary transcendental being called 'God'. My allegiance is with the Earth.
I don't base my perspective on the World on a 2000 year old synthetic Middle Eastern cult. If anything, I see myself as a pagan...of the Earth, and For the Earth.
If you believe the Earth came about because of chance and some giant explosion, then so be it.
You think believing in God is foolishness, and I think believing that the Earth came about because of some random explosion is foolishness. Each side has to explain the "something came from nothing debate" so that is a draw.
But this has nothing to do with the subject of your original post.
Is it so wrong to assume that there is a base, innate morality that we all (or at least the vast majority of us) can agree on, and beyond that, morality is an evolving concept, that moves along with the collective wisdom, or in some cases, devolves, due to ignorance?
Well, that's what I would call natural morality. The other kind is trained morality, or religious morality, which doesn't produce the same great results as natural morality. What's worse is that natural morality often appears as immorality to the faithful.
I wonder how Columbus and other so-called Christians addressed the subject of morality when they were busy butchering hundreds of thousands of native American's in the 15th century?
Personally, I have no need of some imaginary transcendental being called 'God'. My allegiance is with the Earth.
I don't base my perspective on the World on a 2000 year old synthetic Middle Eastern cult. If anything, I see myself as a pagan...of the Earth, and For the Earth.
If you believe the Earth came about because of chance and some giant explosion, then so be it.
You think believing in God is foolishness, and I think believing that the Earth came about because of some random explosion is foolishness. Each side has to explain the "something came from nothing debate" so that is a draw.
But this has nothing to do with the subject of your original post.
the earth didnt come about by chance. and the big bang was not a random explosion. nothing comes from nothing and humans didnt come from dirt and the rib of a man.
the so called word of God is very judgemental as i see it written in the bible and i refuse to have anything to do with any morality that derives from it. im not sure how moral an 11 year old is or if i even knew what morals where back then, but what i do know is since then ive lived my life without religion and without a God to guide me. my conscious is my guide and oppression of any kind, be it psychological or physical is against everything i feel within myself and every tenet by which i live my life.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
the earth didnt come about by chance. and the big bang was not a random explosion. nothing comes from nothing and humans didnt come from dirt and the rib of a man.
the so called word of God is very judgemental as i see it written in the bible and i refuse to have anything to do with any morality that derives from it. im not sure how moral an 11 year old is or if i even knew what morals where back then, but what i do know is since then ive lived my life without religion and without a God to guide me. my conscious is my guide and oppression of any kind, be it psychological or physical is against everything i feel within myself and every tenet by which i live my life.
If the Earth didn't come by chance, and the big bang was not a random explosion, are you saying there is a creator? If there is no creator, then the Earth did come about by chance and a massive explosion. There are probably trillions and trillions of events/conditions that had to come together for us to have this debate on this message board. It is equally as tough to believe that everything just happened from a bang as the creation story in the Bible.
It seems ironic that people easily discount that man was created from dirt and the rib of a man, but instead will believe that we came from a mass of atoms that blew up a trillion years ago. Both seem far fetched to me, but I choose to believe the Biblical version.
I wonder how Columbus and other so-called Christians addressed the subject of morality when they were busy butchering hundreds of thousands of native American's in the 15th century?
It was evil. It was greed. It was sin. There are lots of people that say they are Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc... that don't go to church, synagogues, or Mosque, or follow the religion they say they belong to. There are a lot of so-called atheist murderers out there, so does that mean the atheist morality you speak of says it is okay to murder? That is the argument you are making with Columbus.
the earth didnt come about by chance. and the big bang was not a random explosion. nothing comes from nothing and humans didnt come from dirt and the rib of a man.
the so called word of God is very judgemental as i see it written in the bible and i refuse to have anything to do with any morality that derives from it. im not sure how moral an 11 year old is or if i even knew what morals where back then, but what i do know is since then ive lived my life without religion and without a God to guide me. my conscious is my guide and oppression of any kind, be it psychological or physical is against everything i feel within myself and every tenet by which i live my life.
If the Earth didn't come by chance, and the big bang was not a random explosion, are you saying there is a creator? If there is no creator, then the Earth did come about by chance and a massive explosion. There are probably trillions and trillions of events/conditions that had to come together for us to have this debate on this message board. It is equally as tough to believe that everything just happened from a bang as the creation story in the Bible.
It seems ironic that people easily discount that man was created from dirt and the rib of a man, but instead will believe that we came from a mass of atoms that blew up a trillion years ago. Both seem far fetched to me, but I choose to believe the Biblical version.
i am saying nature is its own creator. and no if there is no 'Creator' that does not mean the earth came about by chance. but yes it did come about through a big explosion... it just wasnt random. no explosion is random in the sense that it comes out of nowhere/nothing... which is what i think of when i think of random... they are always the result of the coming together of different elements. as you said, there are probably trillions and trillions of events/conditions that had to come together for us to have this debate on this message board.
how difficult can it be to believe 'we came from a mass of atoms that blew up a trillion years ago' when, as with everything else in the universe, we are ourselves made up of a bunch of atoms.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
In the US, the morality is that woman and men are equal. In a lot of countries in the middle east it is moral to treat women as possessions. So the questions are:
1) Can it be both moral and immoral to treat women as possessions?
2) If not, who decides what is moral or immoral? What makes your vote that it is immoral better than the next person's vote that it is moral?
You can create laws without God, but I don't think you can create morality without one central source (God).
The morality without a central source is basically the morality of "you" and not the "whole". If you believe this, than there is no right or wrong. You may think it is wrong to steal, but in my morality it is okay to steal.
So I'd imagine one of the arguments will be that morality comes from a consensus, or the majority. Well, if you believe that, then same sex marraige is immoral because the majority of Californians voted against it in 2008. For a time, the majority of Americans believe that it was okay that black people couldn't vote. That was immoral even though the majority agreed at the time.
Without a central source of morality that applies to everyone equally, there is no morality.
how difficult can it be to believe 'we came from a mass of atoms that blew up a trillion years ago' when, as with everything else in the universe, we are ourselves made up of a bunch of atoms.
That is a good point. It just seems to me the odds of the big bang creating what exists today are probably just as long as Creation when you think about all of the trillions of events that had to occur just right to get us where we are today.
And in the end, you can't say how the atoms were created to make the big bang, just like you ask me how did God come into existence.
how difficult can it be to believe 'we came from a mass of atoms that blew up a trillion years ago' when, as with everything else in the universe, we are ourselves made up of a bunch of atoms.
That is a good point. It just seems to me the odds of the big bang creating what exists today are probably just as long as Creation when you think about all of the trillions of events that had to occur just right to get us where we are today.
And in the end, you can't say how the atoms were created to make the big bang, just like you ask me how did God come into existence.
well i dont ask how God came into existence cause i know.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
how difficult can it be to believe 'we came from a mass of atoms that blew up a trillion years ago' when, as with everything else in the universe, we are ourselves made up of a bunch of atoms.
That is a good point. It just seems to me the odds of the big bang creating what exists today are probably just as long as Creation when you think about all of the trillions of events that had to occur just right to get us where we are today.
And in the end, you can't say how the atoms were created to make the big bang, just like you ask me how did God come into existence.
well i dont ask how God came into existence cause i know.
Well you can be as witty as you want but you can't explain where atoms came from to create the big bang.
That is a good point. It just seems to me the odds of the big bang creating what exists today are probably just as long as Creation when you think about all of the trillions of events that had to occur just right to get us where we are today.
And in the end, you can't say how the atoms were created to make the big bang, just like you ask me how did God come into existence.
well i dont ask how God came into existence cause i know.
Well you can be as witty as you want but you can't explain where atoms came from to create the big bang.
atoms are made up of a combination of neutrons, electrons and protons. and now you can ask me where neutrons, electrons and protons come from and so on and so on until we get to the point where these elemental particles just exist and use that as 'proof' of God as creator and im not gonna play that game so dont even bother. the fact is we can see these things... they are documented... but the existence of God is only documented within the scope of faith.. and tbh i dont think thats much 'proof' of existence at all. and yes i understand that one does not have to prove God exists because it comes down to faith. i simply do not have that faith. my brain doesnt function that way and thats ok... just as its okay that yours does. we shall have to just agree to disagree, otherwise were both banging our heads against a brick wall.
hear my name
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
but I don't think you can create morality without one central source (God).
Whose god? And how is this message of morality given? Through the written books/doctrine from each religion (ie bible, koran, etc.) since it would seem that is how the 'word' has been passed on? Books written/put together by 'normal' people, with different cultures, ethics, moral codes, centuries and centuries ago (ie some of these 'morals' may no longer be applicable).
'God' as a central source for morality does not seem so central to me.
I did not need God to be good ... I have always been good.
I do not think that is what God necessarily does for a person.
I needed God to prove to me His existence because I needed to know.
I wanted to know my path to true happiness.
There are many self absorbed judgmental people who do not realize they are so.
Pick pick pick at others... forever negative, unhappy, unfulfilled.
They truly do not love others and really don't care to.
You don't need God to point this out but why do so many not see it or not care?
not see the lack of love for and the lack of acceptance of others.
We are all connected... your actions and choices affect mine,
we are one in the universe.
This is what having God can do for you if you are in need of it or want it.
You might see people and life in a very different light.
Having God with me has enriched my life
I still have no idea what you're on about.
What do you mean 'God' proved to you 'His' existence? What do you mean you have 'God with you'? Are you trying to say that you have some sort of special relationship with a superior being that us lesser mortals have yet to experience in our ignorance?
To explain my post someone basically said the reason God is in people's lives is to make them good. For me that was not the case.
I was always good, conscientious and kind, generous, appreciative of others,
a good moral base without religion but by standards set in my home.
I understand logic and that is why I asked God to prove to me He was there.
I do not understand the lack of being, at the least, inquisitive.
How can you be so sure there is no God or do you despise and refuse to believe because you only associate God with what you see as ridiculous man made religion. So therefore you will not at least ask, as I did, to be shown there is a God.
If you had a miracle upon asking would you explain it away or believe?
You may be forced to believe when there is no explanation.
Which has been discussed at length here and until you live it you will try to dismiss it.
If there were no religions there would still be God.
Above all else, for me, it feels really good to believe and have God with me.
It is like walking with Love, this very different than before I knew Him.
How can you be so sure there is no God or do you despise and refuse to believe because you only associate God with what you see as ridiculous man made religion. So therefore you will not at least ask, as I did, to be shown there is a God.
Like I said above, it depends what you mean by 'God'. You keep throwing this word around but I still have no idea what you're on about.
If there were no religions there would still be God.
Above all else, for me, it feels really good to believe and have God with me.
It is like walking with Love, this very different than before I knew Him.
What's God? Or is it only something you are privy to?
Sounds like a load of bollocks to me.
And why do you keep using the word 'Him'? You don't need to use the words 'Him' or 'It' when referring to this 'god' of yours.
How can you be so sure there is no God or do you despise and refuse to believe because you only associate God with what you see as ridiculous man made religion. So therefore you will not at least ask, as I did, to be shown there is a God.
Like I said above, it depends what you mean by 'God'. You keep throwing this word around but I still have no idea what you're on about.
If there were no religions there would still be God.
Above all else, for me, it feels really good to believe and have God with me.
It is like walking with Love, this very different than before I knew Him.
What's God? Or is it only something you are privy to?
Sounds like a load of bollocks to me.
And why do you keep using the word 'Him'? You don't need to use the words 'Him' or 'It' when referring to this 'god' of yours.
I don't think you should pick words apart so much.
Just feel but you choose not to feel what I am "on" about :?
The fact that you are unwilling and call it bs is very telling.
haven't read any of the thread, figure its the same old shit.
we are here, alive and stuff. so is the universe and microscopic creatures and cells and things, the sun, moon, stars, and other planets, rivers, snow and evil or angelic happenings, landfills and dick cheney.
some energy somewhere, somehow, holds all this miraculous stuff in their hands.
that would be a god and goddess
one time a butterfly shit in my tea, i did not realize it until after i drank my ice tea. i tripped out and flew away without leaving the ground.
now it's green grass. how the fuck did grass get here and become a color?
roots, bugs, and even cellphones in parallel universes right now are running amok and ringing off the hook next to you and you can't even hear the commotion and maybe just maybe you'll get to see your grandmother's ghost
I don't think you should pick words apart so much.
But that's the problem. The word 'God', as you've so far explained it, is just that; a word.
No Bynzie its not just a word... I think it is to you, though.
I have posted what God is to me but you have chosen not to try and understand what He is to me and how He makes me feel or how He came to be in my life.
I'm religious and I don't think for one second that a person can't have morality without religion. I'm kind of surprised there's even a debate.
i'm a good person
i'm a moral individual
but not religious in the least, tho' i was raised southern baptist
(which probably has the most to do with my lack of belief now)
Whether one walks with god or not, as a human being, we have basic concept of ethics/morals. We sort of automatically work with the ethic of reprocity (well... most of us anyway). Again, whether one 'has' god or not, we will diverge from our 'innate' morals. Then come in play the set of ethics one gets from culture, environment, time in history, etc. 'God' (whoever/whatever god may be) can a source of morals for some but 'god' is certainly not necessary for this.
Is it moral to dismiss the beliefs of others and judge them for what they believe?
To ridicule the way they choose to live their lives,
even if that is based in a book written over 2000 years ago.
Is it moral to close the door on understanding.
I say not.
This going both ways, as always, and comes down to respecting others.
Live and let live and love.
Why must it be ...the religions of the world against the atheists... and vice versa... it gets old.
I don't think many would say you must have God to have morals,
but you have to accept others to have understanding which is the way to peace and love.
haven't read any of the thread, figure its the same old shit.
we are here, alive and stuff. so is the universe and microscopic creatures and cells and things, the sun, moon, stars, and other planets, rivers, snow and evil or angelic happenings, landfills and dick cheney.
some energy somewhere, somehow, holds all this miraculous stuff in their hands.
that would be a god and goddess
one time a butterfly shit in my tea, i did not realize it until after i drank my ice tea. i tripped out and flew away without leaving the ground.
now it's green grass. how the fuck did grass get here and become a color?
roots, bugs, and even cellphones in parallel universes right now are running amok and ringing off the hook next to you and you can't even hear the commotion and maybe just maybe you'll get to see your grandmother's ghost
haven't read any of the thread, figure its the same old shit.
we are here, alive and stuff. so is the universe and microscopic creatures and cells and things, the sun, moon, stars, and other planets, rivers, snow and evil or angelic happenings, landfills and dick cheney.
some energy somewhere, somehow, holds all this miraculous stuff in their hands.
that would be a god and goddess
one time a butterfly shit in my tea, i did not realize it until after i drank my ice tea. i tripped out and flew away without leaving the ground.
now it's green grass. how the fuck did grass get here and become a color?
roots, bugs, and even cellphones in parallel universes right now are running amok and ringing off the hook next to you and you can't even hear the commotion and maybe just maybe you'll get to see your grandmother's ghost
there is a boss out there and it isn't like us
Same old shit.
"First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win ."
Comments
I do not think that is what God necessarily does for a person.
I needed God to prove to me His existence because I needed to know.
I wanted to know my path to true happiness.
There are many self absorbed judgmental people who do not realize they are so.
Pick pick pick at others... forever negative, unhappy, unfulfilled.
They truly do not love others and really don't care to.
You don't need God to point this out but why do so many not see it or not care?
not see the lack of love for and the lack of acceptance of others.
We are all connected... your actions and choices affect mine,
we are one in the universe.
This is what having God can do for you if you are in need of it or want it.
You might see people and life in a very different light.
Having God with me has enriched my life
I still have no idea what you're on about.
What do you mean 'God' proved to you 'His' existence? What do you mean you have 'God with you'? Are you trying to say that you have some sort of special relationship with a superior being that us lesser mortals have yet to experience in our ignorance?
I don't base my perspective on the World on a 2000 year old synthetic Middle Eastern cult. If anything, I see myself as a pagan...of the Earth, and For the Earth.
If you believe the Earth came about because of chance and some giant explosion, then so be it.
You think believing in God is foolishness, and I think believing that the Earth came about because of some random explosion is foolishness. Each side has to explain the "something came from nothing debate" so that is a draw.
But this has nothing to do with the subject of your original post.
the earth didnt come about by chance. and the big bang was not a random explosion. nothing comes from nothing and humans didnt come from dirt and the rib of a man.
the so called word of God is very judgemental as i see it written in the bible and i refuse to have anything to do with any morality that derives from it. im not sure how moral an 11 year old is or if i even knew what morals where back then, but what i do know is since then ive lived my life without religion and without a God to guide me. my conscious is my guide and oppression of any kind, be it psychological or physical is against everything i feel within myself and every tenet by which i live my life.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
If the Earth didn't come by chance, and the big bang was not a random explosion, are you saying there is a creator? If there is no creator, then the Earth did come about by chance and a massive explosion. There are probably trillions and trillions of events/conditions that had to come together for us to have this debate on this message board. It is equally as tough to believe that everything just happened from a bang as the creation story in the Bible.
It seems ironic that people easily discount that man was created from dirt and the rib of a man, but instead will believe that we came from a mass of atoms that blew up a trillion years ago. Both seem far fetched to me, but I choose to believe the Biblical version.
It was evil. It was greed. It was sin. There are lots of people that say they are Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc... that don't go to church, synagogues, or Mosque, or follow the religion they say they belong to. There are a lot of so-called atheist murderers out there, so does that mean the atheist morality you speak of says it is okay to murder? That is the argument you are making with Columbus.
i am saying nature is its own creator. and no if there is no 'Creator' that does not mean the earth came about by chance. but yes it did come about through a big explosion... it just wasnt random. no explosion is random in the sense that it comes out of nowhere/nothing... which is what i think of when i think of random... they are always the result of the coming together of different elements. as you said, there are probably trillions and trillions of events/conditions that had to come together for us to have this debate on this message board.
how difficult can it be to believe 'we came from a mass of atoms that blew up a trillion years ago' when, as with everything else in the universe, we are ourselves made up of a bunch of atoms.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
1) Can it be both moral and immoral to treat women as possessions?
2) If not, who decides what is moral or immoral? What makes your vote that it is immoral better than the next person's vote that it is moral?
You can create laws without God, but I don't think you can create morality without one central source (God).
The morality without a central source is basically the morality of "you" and not the "whole". If you believe this, than there is no right or wrong. You may think it is wrong to steal, but in my morality it is okay to steal.
So I'd imagine one of the arguments will be that morality comes from a consensus, or the majority. Well, if you believe that, then same sex marraige is immoral because the majority of Californians voted against it in 2008. For a time, the majority of Americans believe that it was okay that black people couldn't vote. That was immoral even though the majority agreed at the time.
Without a central source of morality that applies to everyone equally, there is no morality.
That is a good point. It just seems to me the odds of the big bang creating what exists today are probably just as long as Creation when you think about all of the trillions of events that had to occur just right to get us where we are today.
And in the end, you can't say how the atoms were created to make the big bang, just like you ask me how did God come into existence.
well i dont ask how God came into existence cause i know.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Well you can be as witty as you want but you can't explain where atoms came from to create the big bang.
atoms are made up of a combination of neutrons, electrons and protons. and now you can ask me where neutrons, electrons and protons come from and so on and so on until we get to the point where these elemental particles just exist and use that as 'proof' of God as creator and im not gonna play that game so dont even bother. the fact is we can see these things... they are documented... but the existence of God is only documented within the scope of faith.. and tbh i dont think thats much 'proof' of existence at all. and yes i understand that one does not have to prove God exists because it comes down to faith. i simply do not have that faith. my brain doesnt function that way and thats ok... just as its okay that yours does. we shall have to just agree to disagree, otherwise were both banging our heads against a brick wall.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Laws and morality/ethics are two very, very different things.
Whose god? And how is this message of morality given? Through the written books/doctrine from each religion (ie bible, koran, etc.) since it would seem that is how the 'word' has been passed on? Books written/put together by 'normal' people, with different cultures, ethics, moral codes, centuries and centuries ago (ie some of these 'morals' may no longer be applicable).
'God' as a central source for morality does not seem so central to me.
Basic humanity is for all.
I was always good, conscientious and kind, generous, appreciative of others,
a good moral base without religion but by standards set in my home.
I understand logic and that is why I asked God to prove to me He was there.
I do not understand the lack of being, at the least, inquisitive.
How can you be so sure there is no God or do you despise and refuse to believe because you only associate God with what you see as ridiculous man made religion. So therefore you will not at least ask, as I did, to be shown there is a God.
If you had a miracle upon asking would you explain it away or believe?
You may be forced to believe when there is no explanation.
Which has been discussed at length here and until you live it you will try to dismiss it.
If there were no religions there would still be God.
Above all else, for me, it feels really good to believe and have God with me.
It is like walking with Love, this very different than before I knew Him.
What does 'God' have to do with logic?
Like I said above, it depends what you mean by 'God'. You keep throwing this word around but I still have no idea what you're on about.
What's God? Or is it only something you are privy to?
Sounds like a load of bollocks to me.
And why do you keep using the word 'Him'? You don't need to use the words 'Him' or 'It' when referring to this 'god' of yours.
Just feel but you choose not to feel what I am "on" about :?
The fact that you are unwilling and call it bs is very telling.
But that's the problem. The word 'God', as you've so far explained it, is just that; a word.
we are here, alive and stuff. so is the universe and microscopic creatures and cells and things, the sun, moon, stars, and other planets, rivers, snow and evil or angelic happenings, landfills and dick cheney.
some energy somewhere, somehow, holds all this miraculous stuff in their hands.
that would be a god and goddess
one time a butterfly shit in my tea, i did not realize it until after i drank my ice tea. i tripped out and flew away without leaving the ground.
now it's green grass. how the fuck did grass get here and become a color?
roots, bugs, and even cellphones in parallel universes right now are running amok and ringing off the hook next to you and you can't even hear the commotion and maybe just maybe you'll get to see your grandmother's ghost
there is a boss out there and it isn't like us
"Hear me, my chiefs!
I am tired; my heart is
sick and sad. From where
the sun stands I will fight
no more forever."
Chief Joseph - Nez Perce
I have posted what God is to me but you have chosen not to try and understand what He is to me and how He makes me feel or how He came to be in my life.
We all have choices.
i'm a good person
i'm a moral individual
but not religious in the least, tho' i was raised southern baptist
(which probably has the most to do with my lack of belief now)
"what a long, strange trip it's been"
To ridicule the way they choose to live their lives,
even if that is based in a book written over 2000 years ago.
Is it moral to close the door on understanding.
I say not.
This going both ways, as always, and comes down to respecting others.
Live and let live and love.
Why must it be ...the religions of the world against the atheists... and vice versa... it gets old.
I don't think many would say you must have God to have morals,
but you have to accept others to have understanding which is the way to peace and love.
Same old shit.
"With our thoughts we make the world"