again, signifying lance as this big kahuna, masks the larger problem, which is not doping by one individual, but the mentality that permeates sports in general: if you lose, you are a loser, anything less than being the 1st one to win a race is a complete failure.
The reason cycling hasnt investigated ALL its riders, and why MLB hasnt even years later hasnt done much of anything to root out steroid use, is because it was tacitly endorsed and supported by the higher ups in each sport. And that isnt being investigated, nor will it be. Because it involves commisioners, and CEO;s and heads of corporations, it involves the leadership of each individual sports, and plus, as I said, the idea of winning is the only acceptable option permeates american society, it doesnt just stop when an athlete changes into street clothes.
For me, Im less interested in the legality of it. Because I dont think anyone should be allowed to stop people from putting stuff into their bodies, if they want to. Im more interested in the moral and ethical implications of it all.
and again - your failure to read the evidence misleads you ...
lance was/is a big kahuna ... he is not simply one athlete amongst many who cheated and has been caught ... i do wish you would read at least a summary of the case against him - i think it would change your perspective significantly ...
you are right tho in saying that it was complicit in the sport and if you follow what i've been saying all along - there needs to be accountability on all fronts ... but your persistent position that lance is just another athlete that doped is naive and wrong ...
as for the moral and ethical implications of regulating sports as it pertains to drugs and anything else is to protect the innocent ... to protect the riders that choose to race clean ... to protect the integrity of the sport ...
Do you realize there will be people who continue to support him? I dont think they are blind, ignorant, or stupid. I just think people have differing opinions. Im against the death penalty. But im fully aware there are many who support it. Its silly to think, "if only people read that book I read that made the death penalty seem like the barbaric thing it is, that then people will come around to my way of thinking".
I know you dont mean it this way, but I feel and sense a bit of condescention and arrogance in your posts. Theres no middle ground for you. If I dont want to lynch Lance, then somehow I support cheaters, which of course, if you actually read my posts, are a complete disreguarding of my words and feelings.
I think its possible to abhor and want to punish cheaters, but I also think people are complicated. MLK cheated on his wife. Does that mean we refuse to acknowledge his importance?
Im always puzzled by those who cant see the grey in life. Some of my heroes are John Lennon, Bob Dylan, Malcolm X, and they were complicated figures. Made mistakes. But, thats the thing about my heroes. They are the ones who I view as important to me. You can have your own list of heroes.
Lets be realistic-do you really think the only reason MANY people still support Kobe, or ARod or Clemons, is because they didnt read the evidence? Think its a little more involved than that.
Things are always more complex than people think they are. And to fail to acknowledge that is childish and does a disservice to this board frankly, which is about discussion, not of "Im right, your wrong, and until you read this you dont get to debate me". Thats pointless
my main point: lance, inspired and encouraged people with cancer and those with other dibilitating diseases, or obstacles, to overcome them. So someone who doped, caused you to try and overcome your fear? So in the darkest hours of despair during cancer treatment, Lance's example gave you a glimmer of hope that you'd win, that the disease would be beaten, that you'd live. Thats what caused him to become the legend he is, in peoples minds. The idea of hope, of real hope, not the false kind Obama espouses, but real tangible hope, that you can change your life, that you can improve your situation even in seemingly impossible situations like death sentences such as cancer, that your hopes and dreams and desires matter, those are things I associate with lance. Always have. And always will. Its also stuff I associate with all my heroes. MLK included.
That push he gave people, that all heroes give us, the will to try again, that it all will be okay, that all is not lost. Thats what I live for. And its what makes life worth living.
Plus, I think, the idea of a perfect hero may be overrated. We all make mistakes, and fail sometimes. How could we possibly emulate and have courage inspired in us, by people who DONT MAKE MISTAKES and are perfect? What makes the heroes I worship important to me, is that they show I CAN DO THESE THING TOO. I can succeed, and be the best me I can be. I can reach my true potential.
i also think many people will continue to support lance, because of cancer and how personal it is. It indeed is, as he has pointed out, something that has effected every person in America, and the world. We all know someone or have it, or have a story about it. Its personal, and stuff like that isnt easily rooted out just because someone cheated. Or is flawed. Or lied. or.....
... i do wish you would read at least a summary of the case against him
is there such a document? :?
If I had known then what I know now...
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I wonder what Peter La Fleur's thoughts are on this?
haha ... i think la fleur got some other advice from lance at the bar ... and probably some free drugs ... only way to explain how they won in the finals ..
pretty disappointed in the UCI ... still no accountability on their part ... truth and reconciliation inquiry is the only way ... blow the lid off the whole thing ... verbruggen, nike, media, etc
Now UCI needs to be cleaned of its corrupt officials, who were complicit up until now. But after USADA report there was no way to continue the "cover up" so Lance went under the bus. But there is more to this story than Lance. Cycling's governing body, whose head is Pat McQuaid and his predecessor, Hein Verburggen, need to go. UCI needs all new officials, directors, or whatever they are called.
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way it treats its animals. Ghandi
Now UCI needs to be cleaned of its corrupt officials, who were complicit up until now. But after USADA report there was no way to continue the "cover up" so Lance went under the bus. But there is more to this story than Lance. Cycling's governing body, whose head is Pat McQuaid and his predecessor, Hein Verburggen, need to go. UCI needs all new officials, directors, or whatever they are called.
I agree there more to this storey...what I don't particularly like is the fact that all the people that Lance under the bus made lots of $$$ off Lance and many will continue to make lots of $$$. You want to clean up sports ban all cheaters for life.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I kinda meant a summary....something a little shorter than 202 pages.
thanks, tho. I'll read the whole thing at some point.
If I had known then what I know now...
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i wonder what you all think of why lance didnt win any Tours past 2005. Did he not dope after then? Was doping just more widespread by that time?
polaris, I have read about 70 pages of the report.
One of the things thats stuck out so far, was in 2001 I think they talk about Lance and 2 other cyclists, riding and training without doping, and that they looked and felt awful, and could barely ride even small hills. And that once they doped they were able to become "their normal" amazing athlete selves.
and lastly, why do people who cheat tell so many people, and openly so? What struck me about the report, and even without reading the report, all these people were using, and knew everyone was doping, and did these things so openly. I can see doping with a doctor, and privately, but its so odd, most of these guys, even taking lance out of the equation, their wives, girlfriends, friends, etc... all had to have known. Why would you be so brazen and open about it? It wasnt just the inner circle who knew about it, EVERYONE knew, and that makes it all the more amazing all this went down.
I spoke about this last week, but it almost feels like in cycling, everyone had this view that what they were doing, in some almost parallel universe, that what they were doing was okay and justified and that it all was good.
I agree Lukin, id feel better if it was clear sports in general was prosecuting, punishing and banning all cheaters. Any glance around and its clear that isnt happening nor will it happen. The officials and commisioners and higher ups in all the sports who looked the other way as all this was happening, deserve as much punishment and blame as anyone else.
What clearly happened in all these sports is, the sport was getting lots of press and attention and money. And the stars of all the sports were doping. The higher ups knew this. And did nothing about it. When Mcgwire and Sosa were doping, they knew what was up. And did nothing, because the sport had captivated the nation and imaginations of people like me who dont normally follow baseball.
There was a huge potential audience created in cycling and because the ratings and money was flowing in, the cycling higher ups didnt toss the cheaters out then and there. They waited and allowed stuff like this to happen.
What gross behavior that was. To know your stars arent stars and that the records you are touting as being broken, are being broken by dopers? Thats as gross as anything any of these individual athletes did.
i wonder what you all think of why lance didnt win any Tours past 2005. Did he not dope after then? Was doping just more widespread by that time?
polaris, I have read about 70 pages of the report.
One of the things thats stuck out so far, was in 2001 I think they talk about Lance and 2 other cyclists, riding and training without doping, and that they looked and felt awful, and could barely ride even small hills. And that once they doped they were able to become "their normal" amazing athlete selves.
and lastly, why do people who cheat tell so many people, and openly so? What struck me about the report, and even without reading the report, all these people were using, and knew everyone was doping, and did these things so openly. I can see doping with a doctor, and privately, but its so odd, most of these guys, even taking lance out of the equation, their wives, girlfriends, friends, etc... all had to have known. Why would you be so brazen and open about it? It wasnt just the inner circle who knew about it, EVERYONE knew, and that makes it all the more amazing all this went down.
I spoke about this last week, but it almost feels like in cycling, everyone had this view that what they were doing, in some almost parallel universe, that what they were doing was okay and justified and that it all was good.
lance didn't win because he was 38 years old during his comeback ... you can soup up a pinto and it still won't win the indy 500 ...
like i've been saying - doping in cycling was endemic ... everyone was complicit - not just the riders and teams, but the governing body (UCI), the corporate sponsors and the media ...
i wonder what you all think of why lance didnt win any Tours past 2005. Did he not dope after then? Was doping just more widespread by that time?
After his '05 "win" he retired for a long time. Hard to come back from that...
I am still torn on this whole thing. He's a cheater. We all get that and understand it now. The thing is: he won in an era of cheaters. In order to beat them, he joined them. He still was an amazing athlete. Doping or not, to win TDF 7 years in a row is astounding.
Bright eyed kid: "Wow Typo Man, you're the best!"
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I am still torn on this whole thing. He's a cheater. We all get that and understand it now. The thing is: he won in an era of cheaters. In order to beat them, he joined them. He still was an amazing athlete. Doping or not, to win TDF 7 years in a row is astounding.
actually ... you can chalk that up to the many myths about lance armstrong ... i used to believe this as well ... but the reality is that he won because he had the best doctors, the best drugs and the best system for cheating money can buy ... cycling is a team sport - you can be the best rider in the word but if your team sucks ... you have no chance of wining a grand tour ... lance's access to everything was the best and that's why he won all those TDF ...
i wonder what you all think of why lance didnt win any Tours past 2005. Did he not dope after then? Was doping just more widespread by that time?
After his '05 "win" he retired for a long time. Hard to come back from that...
I am still torn on this whole thing. He's a cheater. We all get that and understand it now. The thing is: he won in an era of cheaters. In order to beat them, he joined them. He still was an amazing athlete. Doping or not, to win TDF 7 years in a row is astounding.
precisely my point about the complexity of the issue. Whats that saying that was passed around for the last couple years "if he cheated, he doped and beat a bunch of other dopers to win 7".
Being torn is I think normal and decisions by courts and the UCI wont change that for many people.
This doesnt end really. 2012 isnt the end of Lance, nor is it the end of this debate. people will be debating this for decades to come, just as the issue of steroids in MLB hasnt gone away and people continue to dope. It will reappear and have to be dealt with again, and there will be a strong split between those who alienate lance and those who continue to idolize him. He will continue to work in reguards to cancer awareness so he's not going away.
just the way sport is these days...all sports..too much restrictions on these athletes..he just doped better than the other cyclists...all his tdf titles show it.
One of the things thats stuck out so far, was in 2001 I think they talk about Lance and 2 other cyclists, riding and training without doping, and that they looked and felt awful, and could barely ride even small hills. And that once they doped they were able to become "their normal" amazing athlete selves.
.
So without drugs, he would not have won anything.
He's a fraud.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
I am still torn on this whole thing. He's a cheater. We all get that and understand it now. The thing is: he won in an era of cheaters. In order to beat them, he joined them. He still was an amazing athlete. Doping or not, to win TDF 7 years in a row is astounding.
actually ... you can chalk that up to the many myths about lance armstrong ... i used to believe this as well ... but the reality is that he won because he had the best doctors, the best drugs and the best system for cheating money can buy ... cycling is a team sport - you can be the best rider in the word but if your team sucks ... you have no chance of wining a grand tour ... lance's access to everything was the best and that's why he won all those TDF ...
\
but basso and ulrich, contador, landis, periero, all those guys won as well. I think it was so widespread that it was just accepted and normal. Had to have been. Hell Pantani won the year before Lance won his first, and he was a doper. This clearly goes way way beyond just that man from Texas
Another thing that surprised me, sort of off topic was the report mentioned lance having a house in france and italy, even during 1999 and 1998, how did he afford that? Wasnt he just a no name athlete at that point?
but basso and ulrich, contador, landis, periero, all those guys won as well. I think it was so widespread that it was just accepted and normal. Had to have been. Hell Pantani won the year before Lance won his first, and he was a doper. This clearly goes way way beyond just that man from Texas
Another thing that surprised me, sort of off topic was the report mentioned lance having a house in france and italy, even during 1999 and 1998, how did he afford that? Wasnt he just a no name athlete at that point?
yeah ... doping was endemic which is why it's disheartening to read guys from that era claim to not have known anything ... cycling is an amazing sport and it needs to confront its past and move forward but with truth and transparency ... i am pretty sure the winners of 2 of the 3 grand tours this year did so clean and with clean teams ... cycling is probably the most aggressive sport right now when it comes to doping ... and i think burying this or trying to disengage from it is not helping ...
having said that - lance is not just another athlete who doped ... his involvement and ruthlessness as it relates to doping goes far beyond some epo and blood transfusions ... this is the part where we have not seen eye to eye ... he's not just another athlete who doped ...
no ... lance had major results prior to his cancer including a world championship ... he signed a 2 year $2 million dollar deal with Confidis in 1996 ... he was already loaded ... and to be clear - he doped before his cancer ...
So they stripped Armstrong of his 7 tour victories?
They are going to leave the titles blank for those years. Why? Did people not finish on the podium? Why wouldn't they award the 2nd place finisher? Or did they all cheat? To mean they need t o provide answers as to why they would not award people below the title.
So why don't they do the credible thing and erase all results for those years?
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
So they stripped Armstrong of his 7 tour victories?
They are going to leave the titles blank for those years. Why? Did people not finish on the podium? Why wouldn't they award the 2nd place finisher? Or did they all cheat? To mean they need t o provide answers as to why they would not award people below the title.
So why don't they do the credible thing and erase all results for those years?
This is what I was going to ask. Are they going to give it to the 2nd place winner and will they check to make sure they weren't also doing the same thing? This is unbelievable.
So they stripped Armstrong of his 7 tour victories?
They are going to leave the titles blank for those years. Why? Did people not finish on the podium? Why wouldn't they award the 2nd place finisher? Or did they all cheat? To mean they need t o provide answers as to why they would not award people below the title.
So why don't they do the credible thing and erase all results for those years?
This is what I was going to ask. Are they going to give it to the 2nd place winner and will they check to make sure they weren't also doing the same thing? This is unbelievable.
They wont give it to the 2nd place winner because look at the list from 199-2005, every person who was 2nd or 3rd or 4th was guilty of doping as well. The cycling world knows they cant give the runner up the award, because its well known how deep and ubiquitous doping was. I dont think they will do anything to make sure this doesnt happen again. Thats the sad part and the farce of the entire investigation. If they were aiming to bring down everyone who doped during those years, they'd have to prosecute and fine and ban team leaders, CEO's, members of UCI, and people who run and own the Tour. Thats never going to happen. It would be like running an investigation and punishing yourself. So one guy is taking the blame for an entire culture, and sport. Lets be real, people and organizations were getting paid off, and looking the other way, for more than one athlete. This involved pretty much every elite Tour cyclist, for years and years. Its the same reason cops are never investigated, and buisnessmen never are rounded up. They have the power, and they are running the investigation.
Sports and cycling specificially, fundamentally cant clean house, which it should do, until the higher ups are prosecuted and treated like the criminals they are.
Comments
Do you realize there will be people who continue to support him? I dont think they are blind, ignorant, or stupid. I just think people have differing opinions. Im against the death penalty. But im fully aware there are many who support it. Its silly to think, "if only people read that book I read that made the death penalty seem like the barbaric thing it is, that then people will come around to my way of thinking".
I know you dont mean it this way, but I feel and sense a bit of condescention and arrogance in your posts. Theres no middle ground for you. If I dont want to lynch Lance, then somehow I support cheaters, which of course, if you actually read my posts, are a complete disreguarding of my words and feelings.
I think its possible to abhor and want to punish cheaters, but I also think people are complicated. MLK cheated on his wife. Does that mean we refuse to acknowledge his importance?
Im always puzzled by those who cant see the grey in life. Some of my heroes are John Lennon, Bob Dylan, Malcolm X, and they were complicated figures. Made mistakes. But, thats the thing about my heroes. They are the ones who I view as important to me. You can have your own list of heroes.
Lets be realistic-do you really think the only reason MANY people still support Kobe, or ARod or Clemons, is because they didnt read the evidence? Think its a little more involved than that.
Things are always more complex than people think they are. And to fail to acknowledge that is childish and does a disservice to this board frankly, which is about discussion, not of "Im right, your wrong, and until you read this you dont get to debate me". Thats pointless
That push he gave people, that all heroes give us, the will to try again, that it all will be okay, that all is not lost. Thats what I live for. And its what makes life worth living.
Plus, I think, the idea of a perfect hero may be overrated. We all make mistakes, and fail sometimes. How could we possibly emulate and have courage inspired in us, by people who DONT MAKE MISTAKES and are perfect? What makes the heroes I worship important to me, is that they show I CAN DO THESE THING TOO. I can succeed, and be the best me I can be. I can reach my true potential.
is there such a document? :?
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Seriously?
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/!invesitgations%20and%20enterprise%20docs/armstrong-reasoned-decision.pdf
http://www.nydailynews.com/zone-lance-armstrong-bully-downfall-article-1.1188512
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Tom O.
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haha ... i think la fleur got some other advice from lance at the bar ... and probably some free drugs ... only way to explain how they won in the finals ..
Read more: http://www.windsorstar.com/sports/Cycli ... z2A2LLVMU4
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Now UCI needs to be cleaned of its corrupt officials, who were complicit up until now. But after USADA report there was no way to continue the "cover up" so Lance went under the bus. But there is more to this story than Lance. Cycling's governing body, whose head is Pat McQuaid and his predecessor, Hein Verburggen, need to go. UCI needs all new officials, directors, or whatever they are called.
I agree there more to this storey...what I don't particularly like is the fact that all the people that Lance under the bus made lots of $$$ off Lance and many will continue to make lots of $$$. You want to clean up sports ban all cheaters for life.
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
I kinda meant a summary....something a little shorter than 202 pages.
thanks, tho. I'll read the whole thing at some point.
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polaris, I have read about 70 pages of the report.
One of the things thats stuck out so far, was in 2001 I think they talk about Lance and 2 other cyclists, riding and training without doping, and that they looked and felt awful, and could barely ride even small hills. And that once they doped they were able to become "their normal" amazing athlete selves.
and lastly, why do people who cheat tell so many people, and openly so? What struck me about the report, and even without reading the report, all these people were using, and knew everyone was doping, and did these things so openly. I can see doping with a doctor, and privately, but its so odd, most of these guys, even taking lance out of the equation, their wives, girlfriends, friends, etc... all had to have known. Why would you be so brazen and open about it? It wasnt just the inner circle who knew about it, EVERYONE knew, and that makes it all the more amazing all this went down.
I spoke about this last week, but it almost feels like in cycling, everyone had this view that what they were doing, in some almost parallel universe, that what they were doing was okay and justified and that it all was good.
What clearly happened in all these sports is, the sport was getting lots of press and attention and money. And the stars of all the sports were doping. The higher ups knew this. And did nothing about it. When Mcgwire and Sosa were doping, they knew what was up. And did nothing, because the sport had captivated the nation and imaginations of people like me who dont normally follow baseball.
There was a huge potential audience created in cycling and because the ratings and money was flowing in, the cycling higher ups didnt toss the cheaters out then and there. They waited and allowed stuff like this to happen.
What gross behavior that was. To know your stars arent stars and that the records you are touting as being broken, are being broken by dopers? Thats as gross as anything any of these individual athletes did.
lance didn't win because he was 38 years old during his comeback ... you can soup up a pinto and it still won't win the indy 500 ...
like i've been saying - doping in cycling was endemic ... everyone was complicit - not just the riders and teams, but the governing body (UCI), the corporate sponsors and the media ...
i'm glad you are finally reading the report ...
After his '05 "win" he retired for a long time. Hard to come back from that...
I am still torn on this whole thing. He's a cheater. We all get that and understand it now. The thing is: he won in an era of cheaters. In order to beat them, he joined them. He still was an amazing athlete. Doping or not, to win TDF 7 years in a row is astounding.
Typo Man: "Thanks kidz, but remembir, stay in skool!"
actually ... you can chalk that up to the many myths about lance armstrong ... i used to believe this as well ... but the reality is that he won because he had the best doctors, the best drugs and the best system for cheating money can buy ... cycling is a team sport - you can be the best rider in the word but if your team sucks ... you have no chance of wining a grand tour ... lance's access to everything was the best and that's why he won all those TDF ...
precisely my point about the complexity of the issue. Whats that saying that was passed around for the last couple years "if he cheated, he doped and beat a bunch of other dopers to win 7".
Being torn is I think normal and decisions by courts and the UCI wont change that for many people.
This doesnt end really. 2012 isnt the end of Lance, nor is it the end of this debate. people will be debating this for decades to come, just as the issue of steroids in MLB hasnt gone away and people continue to dope. It will reappear and have to be dealt with again, and there will be a strong split between those who alienate lance and those who continue to idolize him. He will continue to work in reguards to cancer awareness so he's not going away.
If you dont like dopers..dont watch sports.
He's a fraud.
but basso and ulrich, contador, landis, periero, all those guys won as well. I think it was so widespread that it was just accepted and normal. Had to have been. Hell Pantani won the year before Lance won his first, and he was a doper. This clearly goes way way beyond just that man from Texas
Another thing that surprised me, sort of off topic was the report mentioned lance having a house in france and italy, even during 1999 and 1998, how did he afford that? Wasnt he just a no name athlete at that point?
yeah ... doping was endemic which is why it's disheartening to read guys from that era claim to not have known anything ... cycling is an amazing sport and it needs to confront its past and move forward but with truth and transparency ... i am pretty sure the winners of 2 of the 3 grand tours this year did so clean and with clean teams ... cycling is probably the most aggressive sport right now when it comes to doping ... and i think burying this or trying to disengage from it is not helping ...
having said that - lance is not just another athlete who doped ... his involvement and ruthlessness as it relates to doping goes far beyond some epo and blood transfusions ... this is the part where we have not seen eye to eye ... he's not just another athlete who doped ...
no ... lance had major results prior to his cancer including a world championship ... he signed a 2 year $2 million dollar deal with Confidis in 1996 ... he was already loaded ... and to be clear - he doped before his cancer ...
They are going to leave the titles blank for those years. Why? Did people not finish on the podium? Why wouldn't they award the 2nd place finisher? Or did they all cheat? To mean they need t o provide answers as to why they would not award people below the title.
So why don't they do the credible thing and erase all results for those years?
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
want to be enlightened"
They wont give it to the 2nd place winner because look at the list from 199-2005, every person who was 2nd or 3rd or 4th was guilty of doping as well. The cycling world knows they cant give the runner up the award, because its well known how deep and ubiquitous doping was. I dont think they will do anything to make sure this doesnt happen again. Thats the sad part and the farce of the entire investigation. If they were aiming to bring down everyone who doped during those years, they'd have to prosecute and fine and ban team leaders, CEO's, members of UCI, and people who run and own the Tour. Thats never going to happen. It would be like running an investigation and punishing yourself. So one guy is taking the blame for an entire culture, and sport. Lets be real, people and organizations were getting paid off, and looking the other way, for more than one athlete. This involved pretty much every elite Tour cyclist, for years and years. Its the same reason cops are never investigated, and buisnessmen never are rounded up. They have the power, and they are running the investigation.
Sports and cycling specificially, fundamentally cant clean house, which it should do, until the higher ups are prosecuted and treated like the criminals they are.
one day - he will HAVE to come clean ... just hoping it's sooner rather than later ...