Second, of course its picking and choosing. I guarantee there are some people on this board who hate lance but cheer on Tiger or Michael Vick, or whoever. I know, because ive talked to people on this board who support those individuals. My understanding, and its borne out by the fact people will pay good money to see Kobe play ball this season, and will be cheering on Tiger, that people do pick and choose the "cheaters and liars" they support. You seem to have this view that lying and cheating is bad news. And I completely agree, but, clearly Kobe hasnt been ostracized because he raped a girl, and ARod doped and continues to be beloved and cheered on. Thats a double standard.
Respectfully, your argument here is nonsensical...
Lance cheated sponsors, teammates, opponents and HIS SPORT. He cheated and manipulated HIS SPORT - he won titles and sponsorships not on his human nature, but how well he rode a bike.
He cheated his SPORT.
Tiger cheated on his wife. (Oh yeah, Lance ALSO did that)
Michael Vick killed dogs.
Kobe raped a hotel gal.
None of the aforementioned cheated or manipulated their SPORT other than keeping them off said playing fields.
Yay, Livestrong gave hope to millions of cancer survivors. My dad is a cancer survivor and loved Lance. Now is he is extremely disappointed by him, will not donate to Livestrong and thinks the guy is a fraud.
BECAUSE HE'S A FRAUD.
HE SCREWED HIS SPORT.
WAKE UP.
What Lance did is bully, cheat and bring a black eye to the very sport that made him a household name.
Millions still watch Tiger, Kobe and Vick.
Your argument is poor, respectfully.
:roll:
Second, of course its picking and choosing. I guarantee there are some people on this board who hate lance but cheer on Tiger or Michael Vick, or whoever. I know, because ive talked to people on this board who support those individuals. My understanding, and its borne out by the fact people will pay good money to see Kobe play ball this season, and will be cheering on Tiger, that people do pick and choose the "cheaters and liars" they support. You seem to have this view that lying and cheating is bad news. And I completely agree, but, clearly Kobe hasnt been ostracized because he raped a girl, and ARod doped and continues to be beloved and cheered on. Thats a double standard.
Respectfully, your argument here is nonsensical...
Lance cheated sponsors, teammates, opponents and HIS SPORT. He cheated and manipulated HIS SPORT - he won titles and sponsorships not on his human nature, but how well he rode a bike.
He cheated his SPORT.
Tiger cheated on his wife. (Oh yeah, Lance ALSO did that)
Michael Vick killed dogs.
Kobe raped a hotel gal.
None of the aforementioned cheated or manipulated their SPORT other than keeping them off said playing fields.
Yay, Livestrong gave hope to millions of cancer survivors. My dad is a cancer survivor and loved Lance. Now is he is extremely disappointed by him, will not donate to Livestrong and thinks the guy is a fraud.
BECAUSE HE'S A FRAUD.
HE SCREWED HIS SPORT.
WAKE UP.
What Lance did is bully, cheat and bring a black eye to the very sport that made him a household name.
Millions still watch Tiger, Kobe and Vick.
Your argument is poor, respectfully.
:roll:
How is what Bonds did any different? or Arod? ARod's chasing the same HR record as Bonds was, has he come out and said "hey i doped, so its unfair of me to move up the HR list"? Of course he hasnt said that. Bonds went so far as to act the part, he was "crowned" HR king, and cheated and lied just as much as lance did. The same dichotomy existed for Bonds and exists for Arod as well. How is ARod allowed to continue to play when he cheated and his entire career is suspect now?
I guess its all a matter of what you value. Because certainly, you talk to anyone woman, rape is an important issue that needs to be discussed, its not back burner stuff. Certainly Kobe, Tiger, Bonds, ARod and whoever did more than just lie. They lied to their sponsers, and fans, and teams just as much as Lance did, and for that matter just as much as Basso, Ulrich, Hamilton, etc.. did as well.
I refuse to play the game that what lance did is any different than any other cyclist on his team, they all doped, or any other ball player who juiced, or whatever. Its all the same thing. Lies, cheating, decieving.
I dont think there are varying degrees. You cheated, your record should be entirely wiped clean. That goes for all cyclists who doped and it goes for ARod who continues to rack up numbers. His entire record should be erased.
for me cheating is cheating. I dont think you can codify or qualify lance as being any more wrong than Bonds was. Its just one continues to have his home run record listed and all his stats listed, and the other seems to be in danger of losing all his cycling titles. Why not erase them both?
on a different note, its wild to think all these athletes would risk it all, for the fame and glory. Well maybe thats not all that crazy to think about. But had they stayed clean, they maybe could have done really well. When you dope, though, anything you accomplish is suspect. Like Ulrich for example. His entire career was erased. Why would you risk having that happen, by doping?
Its also a shame, because all those people, who stayed clean, in the Tour, and in baseball, will forever be tainted because of what someone else did. Thats so messed up.
I also think about, some young, kid, rookie in baseball or at the tour, and they see what everyone else is doing, doping, and how you could see that person getting sucked into that world.
Personally I think all sports should do alot more to eradicate and punish cheaters. MLB especially was an absolute joke in this department, and probably covered up the use of steroids by its main headlining stars. Same with the Tour.
The whole sports industry is a joke, and thats a huge reason why I really dont watch any sports.
bonds ... also on the all time sports fraud list ...
True but not the same as the Armstrong mess.
Also, When Bonds and some of these other ballpayers were using it was morally wrong but not against the rules of baseball.
bonds ... also on the all time sports fraud list ...
True but not the same as the Armstrong mess.
Also, When Bonds and some of these other ballpayers were using it was morally wrong but not against the rules of baseball.
it wasnt explicitly against the rules in baseball because MLB and everyone involved looked the other way because their big stars were using. Anyone who used knew what they were doing, and knew it was wrong, even if every single other teammate was using. Petit and Clemons and whoever can say it wasnt against the rules, but they knew what they were doing, and they knew it was wrong. Same with the Tour. More than just lance used, and the top 10 finishes are a complete laughingstock now, you take lance off number 1, and number 2 doped, so did number 3 and on down the line. Clearly the coverup was more than just protecting lance. It was by cycling in general protecting any of its athletes. Thats why I said earlier, Ive refused to watch the tour for years because everyone dopes. Whats the point of them even racing?
Thats why I feel like the microsope solely on lance is silly, as the microscope on Bonds or Mcguire would be. The MLB and the Tour were STACKED with dopers. Not 1 or 10, but hundreds. And both organizations sought to ignore it, downplay it, cover it up, because of the money, fame and glory.
plus not every athlete in the MLB juiced. So some had the ethical and moral wherewithall to say no, and to stay clean. The idea that lance or Bonds are unique is just as dangerous as the idea that everyone was doped, because it ignores the fact that athletes, all of them, chose to dope, they werent forced to. Im not sure how you could think taking steroids as a ball player is legal, or ethical or is okay. Bonds and everyone else has used that phony line for years.
Extending it further, look at the HR list. I'd like to erase the stats of every player who used from that list.
plus not every athlete in the MLB juiced. So some had the ethical and moral wherewithall to say no, and to stay clean. The idea that lance or Bonds are unique is just as dangerous as the idea that everyone was doped, because it ignores the fact that athletes, all of them, chose to dope, they werent forced to. Im not sure how you could think taking steroids as a ball player is legal, or ethical or is okay. Bonds and everyone else has used that phony line for years.
Extending it further, look at the HR list. I'd like to erase the stats of every player who used from that list.
Would you also include anyone who took amphetamines.
plus not every athlete in the MLB juiced. So some had the ethical and moral wherewithall to say no, and to stay clean. The idea that lance or Bonds are unique is just as dangerous as the idea that everyone was doped, because it ignores the fact that athletes, all of them, chose to dope, they werent forced to. Im not sure how you could think taking steroids as a ball player is legal, or ethical or is okay. Bonds and everyone else has used that phony line for years.
Extending it further, look at the HR list. I'd like to erase the stats of every player who used from that list.
Would you also include anyone who took amphetamines.
i would. and hgh, and creatine and any of that stuff. these guys, MLB players took that stuff for a reason, and they knew its effects. It wasnt just some pill or cream or whatever, it had a purpose, and they knew what that purpose was.
And it pains me to say creatine, because i was a fan of mcgwires when he was an A. and i rooted for him when he hit 70. What seperates Mcgwire from alot of the juicers is I think he's a genuinely sensitive and kind guy. Ive long said, I think his decision to use haunts him to this day, and further, even more upsetting to his psyche I think, is his belief he could have caused kids to use steroids because Mark mcgwire did. I think it genuinely eats at him. There are very few athletes in any sport, that I think feel the sense of shame, and self loathing and angst that Mcgwire feels. But he used, so by my criteria, his records should be erased.
on a different note, its wild to think all these athletes would risk it all, for the fame and glory. Well maybe thats not all that crazy to think about. But had they stayed clean, they maybe could have done really well. When you dope, though, anything you accomplish is suspect. Like Ulrich for example. His entire career was erased. Why would you risk having that happen, by doping?
Its also a shame, because all those people, who stayed clean, in the Tour, and in baseball, will forever be tainted because of what someone else did. Thats so messed up.
I also think about, some young, kid, rookie in baseball or at the tour, and they see what everyone else is doing, doping, and how you could see that person getting sucked into that world.
Personally I think all sports should do alot more to eradicate and punish cheaters. MLB especially was an absolute joke in this department, and probably covered up the use of steroids by its main headlining stars. Same with the Tour.
The whole sports industry is a joke, and thats a huge reason why I really dont watch any sports.
they doped because:
1. it was endemic in the sport at the time
2. the testing was absurd - it was overseen by the body who's primary goal was to see the growth and popularity of pro cycling (conflict of interest). there was no accurate test for epo and testing was done in regulated times making it VERY EASY to avoid testing positive ... you have to remember that although lance passed many tests - so did everyone else ... it wasn't hard ... it should be noted here that when they did finally come up with a test for epo ... they retested some samples from previously and lance's came back as 100 (maximum score for epo) ...
3. pro cyclists don't make a lot of money ... if you want a $35,000 a year contract to ride professionally ... you were given choices ... keep up or you're out and if everyone you are trying to keep up with doped - well, your choice isn't so easy
4. lance would have gotten away with it all if the real crux of his problems didn't rear its ugly head and that is his ego ... if he chose to walk away originally like he did ... and just focused on his other ventures ... it would have still been hearsay and innuendo and something that cyclists would have kept secret ... but his bravado and ego got in the way and he had to come back opening the statute of limitations ... and the sad part is that - when he came back he had to dope in order to stay with cyclists who weren't or he would have been an embarrassment ...
soo ... to answer your question - why!?? ... for some people - it was to continue to have their dream job of being a pro cyclist and to get a paycheck ... for others like lance - it was to build the empire that is lance armstrong ... to become the powerful figure that he still is today ... because many people supported and enabled his behaviour ...
Why is Tiger's name always dragged through this? He didn't cheat on his sport, and as long as he's not breaking the law, I don't really care what he's doing off the course.
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
And it pains me to say creatine, because i was a fan of mcgwires when he was an A. and i rooted for him when he hit 70. What seperates Mcgwire from alot of the juicers is I think he's a genuinely sensitive and kind guy. Ive long said, I think his decision to use haunts him to this day, and further, even more upsetting to his psyche I think, is his belief he could have caused kids to use steroids because Mark mcgwire did. I think it genuinely eats at him. There are very few athletes in any sport, that I think feel the sense of shame, and self loathing and angst that Mcgwire feels. But he used, so by my criteria, his records should be erased.
but when he had an opportunity to come clean and own up to his actions ... at a time where he could have shown the integrity you admire in him ... he chose the cowardly route and pleaded the 5th ...
Why is Tiger's name always dragged through this? He didn't cheat on his sport, and as long as he's not breaking the law, I don't really care what he's doing off the course.
because when faced with the prospect of believing something you don't want to believe - it's much easier to rationalize and deflect ... objectivity is secondary ...
This is effecting people way more than it should...need to get over it. I realized at an early age some people will do what it takes to win ... I realized that when I sat around with friends and watched Ben Johnson win the gold medal and set a world record in the 100 metre ... only to realize a few days later that he cheated ...took like a few seconds to shrug my shoulders and say "Oh Well"...that's life cheating has been going on in sport for a long time.
I have certain rules I live by ... My First Rule ... I don't believe anything the government tells me ... George Carlin
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
Why is Tiger's name always dragged through this? He didn't cheat on his sport, and as long as he's not breaking the law, I don't really care what he's doing off the course.
because when faced with the prospect of believing something you don't want to believe - it's much easier to rationalize and deflect ... objectivity is secondary ...
i think people view tiger radically different in 2012, than they did in 2001. He presented this idea of himself, and image, and in 2009, people found out it was mere image. he had REAL problems. It was all marketing. There is no question people look at him differently now, they feel let down, and the more interesting issue I think is how his own problems have effected him personally. The fact he has won so few tournaments, and hasnt won any majors since the scandal, to me that isnt just a coincidence. The scandal clearly forced him to look at himself in a way he never had before. He spends more time with his kids, than playing golf nowadays, and he'd be the first to admit, thats as it should be.
And lets be fair, peoples personal lives should be just that, but lets do that for all the people discussed. Lance isnt being discussed for doping solely, his off Tour behavior and how he has treated others is being discussed. Ive seen mention of exwives and whatnot. Lets balance that then. The focus should be on doping not on how you feel, or anyone else feels the person or athlete is a creep or an idiot or a jerk.
And in terms of breaking the law, none of these dopers broke the law. Its not against the law to take steroids, or to dope. Its always been moral and ethical issues. Mcgwire taking creatine isnt and wasnt illegal. And Clemons taking HGH wasnt illegal either. Lance taking EPO isnt either. Its the ethical quandry thats the problem. These substances were encouraged, promoted, and dusted under the rug by both the MLB and the Tour.
Its less a problem of wanting to believe something, and more a situation of people liking to attack and criticize others. Its alot easier to take someone else down a peg, than have to face down your own life and see it. Thats why so many people tell others how to live, and few people like to look in the mirror and focus on what could be changed about their own lives.
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so poor I can't afford to comment on the PJ forum Posts: 201
Interested what the UCI report will reveal and how they will move forward with the evidence - choosing alternative winners albeit verifying that doping was not present in those riders. Might be a long list. Crazy...
Interested what the UCI report will reveal and how they will move forward with the evidence - choosing alternative winners albeit verifying that doping was not present in those riders. Might be a long list. Crazy...
You go to the 2nd place winner, and 3rd and so on, and they all doped. I dont think they CAN award a winner for those years. I saw some headline the other day saying they plan on just vacating those years from the tour records, and not having any winner at all. The problem I forsee would be, what year do you start vacating it. Doping has been around for awhile, it certainly didnt just start with one athlete.
And in terms of breaking the law, none of these dopers broke the law. Its not against the law to take steroids, or to dope. Its always been moral and ethical issues. Mcgwire taking creatine isnt and wasnt illegal. And Clemons taking HGH wasnt illegal either. Lance taking EPO isnt either. Its the ethical quandry thats the problem. These substances were encouraged, promoted, and dusted under the rug by both the MLB and the Tour.
you are wrong ... taking certain PED is illegal ... such as EPO without a prescription ...
And in terms of breaking the law, none of these dopers broke the law. Its not against the law to take steroids, or to dope. Its always been moral and ethical issues. Mcgwire taking creatine isnt and wasnt illegal. And Clemons taking HGH wasnt illegal either. Lance taking EPO isnt either. Its the ethical quandry thats the problem. These substances were encouraged, promoted, and dusted under the rug by both the MLB and the Tour.
you are wrong ... taking certain PED is illegal ... such as EPO without a prescription ...
EXACTLY!!
There were PLENTY of laws being broken.
Lets face it Lance wasnt going down the street to his family doctor, and getting a legit prescription for his drugs.
I hope the FEDS go after Lance and he ends up in prison.
And I cant wait to find out how much money the prick was embezzling, from his little charity.
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
There were PLENTY of laws being broken.
Lets face it Lance wasnt going down the street to his family doctor, and getting a legit prescription for his drugs.
I hope the FEDS go after Lance and he ends up in prison.
And I cant wait to find out how much money the prick was embezzling, from his little charity.
there are also laws related to trafficking and use of public tax dollars for illegal purposes ...
lance is a very powerful person ... he has friggin' obama's number on his cell ... he basically had the federal investigation dropped through political pressure ... the feds have stayed silent as to why they chose to close the case ... and it should be noted here that the USADA case against lance was done WITHOUT any evidence compiled by the feds ... so, the reality is that there is even more incriminating evidence out there ...
i believe the feds are staying out of it because there are a lot of key players involved in this scam ... moreso than just lance ... big multinational corporations ... lots of illegal activities ... they just don't want to open those floodgates ...
there are also laws related to trafficking and use of public tax dollars for illegal purposes ...
lance is a very powerful person ... he has friggin' obama's number on his cell ... he basically had the federal investigation dropped through political pressure ... the feds have stayed silent as to why they chose to close the case ... and it should be noted here that the USADA case against lance was done WITHOUT any evidence compiled by the feds ... so, the reality is that there is even more incriminating evidence out there ...
i believe the feds are staying out of it because there are a lot of key players involved in this scam ... moreso than just lance ... big multinational corporations ... lots of illegal activities ... they just don't want to open those floodgates ...
I am sure you are well aware of the allegations that involve NIKE..
When this thing truly BLOWS UP!!! ( It hasnt yet)
Lance will be going to PRISON!
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
I am sure you are well aware of the allegations that involve NIKE..
When this thing truly BLOWS UP!!! ( It hasnt yet)
Lance will be going to PRISON!
yup ... oakley too (which is probably why they still haven't dropped him publicly) ...
there is a whole house of cards that needs to collapse ... despite what one person may think - i have said from the get go - everyone needs to fall ... the UCI, nike, oakley ... everyone ...
to muddy the waters further (for musicismylife)....
yes, bonds cheated.
he, the ex bass player from tower of power and his trainer (an old friend)
no, he didn't transport drugs in a private jet
no, he didn't pay a shady doctor millions
no, he had basically NO endorsements, before or after
no, he wasn't a phony. he knew and we all knew he was just a ballplayer.
no, his cheating did not involve any more than the he and his 2 co-conspirators. it was never far reaching.
no, he never had any real power other than when he had a bat in his hands. he never had friends in high places (unlike clemens, who tried to exploit that)
no, you can't start wiping out numbers because we will never truly know who was and wasn't cheating in baseball
the one big similarity is that the feds went after both with an unmatched zeal when compared to ANY other ball player or cyclist. jeff nowitzki was right in the middle of both.
If I had known then what I know now...
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
Believe me, when I was growin up, I thought the worst thing you could turn out to be was normal, So I say freaks in the most complementary way. Here's a song by a fellow freak - E.V
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
There were PLENTY of laws being broken.
Lets face it Lance wasnt going down the street to his family doctor, and getting a legit prescription for his drugs.
I hope the FEDS go after Lance and he ends up in prison.
And I cant wait to find out how much money the prick was embezzling, from his little charity.
there are also laws related to trafficking and use of public tax dollars for illegal purposes ...
lance is a very powerful person ... he has friggin' obama's number on his cell ... he basically had the federal investigation dropped through political pressure ... the feds have stayed silent as to why they chose to close the case ... and it should be noted here that the USADA case against lance was done WITHOUT any evidence compiled by the feds ... so, the reality is that there is even more incriminating evidence out there ...
i believe the feds are staying out of it because there are a lot of key players involved in this scam ... moreso than just lance ... big multinational corporations ... lots of illegal activities ... they just don't want to open those floodgates ...
again, signifying lance as this big kahuna, masks the larger problem, which is not doping by one individual, but the mentality that permeates sports in general: if you lose, you are a loser, anything less than being the 1st one to win a race is a complete failure.
The reason cycling hasnt investigated ALL its riders, and why MLB hasnt even years later hasnt done much of anything to root out steroid use, is because it was tacitly endorsed and supported by the higher ups in each sport. And that isnt being investigated, nor will it be. Because it involves commisioners, and CEO;s and heads of corporations, it involves the leadership of each individual sports, and plus, as I said, the idea of winning is the only acceptable option permeates american society, it doesnt just stop when an athlete changes into street clothes.
For me, Im less interested in the legality of it. Because I dont think anyone should be allowed to stop people from putting stuff into their bodies, if they want to. Im more interested in the moral and ethical implications of it all.
again, signifying lance as this big kahuna, masks the larger problem, which is not doping by one individual, but the mentality that permeates sports in general: if you lose, you are a loser, anything less than being the 1st one to win a race is a complete failure.
The reason cycling hasnt investigated ALL its riders, and why MLB hasnt even years later hasnt done much of anything to root out steroid use, is because it was tacitly endorsed and supported by the higher ups in each sport. And that isnt being investigated, nor will it be. Because it involves commisioners, and CEO;s and heads of corporations, it involves the leadership of each individual sports, and plus, as I said, the idea of winning is the only acceptable option permeates american society, it doesnt just stop when an athlete changes into street clothes.
For me, Im less interested in the legality of it. Because I dont think anyone should be allowed to stop people from putting stuff into their bodies, if they want to. Im more interested in the moral and ethical implications of it all.
and again - your failure to read the evidence misleads you ...
lance was/is a big kahuna ... he is not simply one athlete amongst many who cheated and has been caught ... i do wish you would read at least a summary of the case against him - i think it would change your perspective significantly ...
you are right tho in saying that it was complicit in the sport and if you follow what i've been saying all along - there needs to be accountability on all fronts ... but your persistent position that lance is just another athlete that doped is naive and wrong ...
as for the moral and ethical implications of regulating sports as it pertains to drugs and anything else is to protect the innocent ... to protect the riders that choose to race clean ... to protect the integrity of the sport ...
thats why i find this board so curious. People seem to view things as black and white. If you arent out to have someones head, somehow you support them. Its not an either or proposistion. As in all issues in life, we may agree with parts of one side, and agree with parts of the other side.
This case isnt black and white. It involves cancer, and charities. It involves something that cant be measured or quantified: Lance being an inspiration to cancer victims. Him being a model of strength for people during that time, if you had cancer during 2005, and his courage propelled you to try and beat out the disease, and you did in fact survive cancer, thats something that is intrinsic, and its something that cant be taken away by doping, or cheating. How could it? You were pushed on to beat a disease, then learned your hero doped? How is you being alive a bad thing?
It also is merely 1 example, in an endless parade, a cavalcade of dopers, cheaters and liars, in all sports.
How do you measure a mans worth? If they do something bad
I deal in those realms. Im not interested in joining the "lets hate on lance" bandwagon. Its not constructive, nor is it relavent. Im interested in the larger issues cheating in sports reveals. Why did they cheat? What can we do to make sure cheating isnt tolerated? How do we need to rearrange society and current paradigms to allow this shift to occur? And maybe it can be as simple as when you are at a basketball game and you take mental note of the fact that whenever ANY CALL is made against the home team, the crowd boos. Being cognisant of that. And maybe trying to implement a world where things arent like that.
People should be allowed to support and idolize whoever they want. Im not going to punch someone in the face if they say Lance is still a hero in their eyes. And nor should you.
Theres also two strains of thinking here: 1. That when someone does something wrong, we castigate them to the grave. Or 2. We acknowledge the wrong, try to right it, and move on. America is founded on the idea, that you cant change. People are in prison for life. People who are felons cant buy houses and cant vote. You are forever marked, tagged. People change. And do. I dont want to live in a world where I cant change who I am.
Comments
Lance cheated sponsors, teammates, opponents and HIS SPORT. He cheated and manipulated HIS SPORT - he won titles and sponsorships not on his human nature, but how well he rode a bike.
He cheated his SPORT.
Tiger cheated on his wife. (Oh yeah, Lance ALSO did that)
Michael Vick killed dogs.
Kobe raped a hotel gal.
None of the aforementioned cheated or manipulated their SPORT other than keeping them off said playing fields.
Yay, Livestrong gave hope to millions of cancer survivors. My dad is a cancer survivor and loved Lance. Now is he is extremely disappointed by him, will not donate to Livestrong and thinks the guy is a fraud.
BECAUSE HE'S A FRAUD.
HE SCREWED HIS SPORT.
WAKE UP.
What Lance did is bully, cheat and bring a black eye to the very sport that made him a household name.
Millions still watch Tiger, Kobe and Vick.
Your argument is poor, respectfully.
:roll:
7.9.03~9.28.04~10.1.05~5.12.06~5.13.06~5.27.06~5.28.06
8.5.08(EV)~10.9.09~5.21.10~6.20.11(EV)~7.5.11(EV)~7.9.11(EV)
11.21.13~8.27.16(EV)~11.14.16(TOTD)~4.13.20~9.27.20~9.26.21~10.2.21
2.15.22 (EV)~2.25.22 (EV)~2.27.22 (EV)~5.3.22~5.7.22~9.17.24~9.29.24
How is what Bonds did any different? or Arod? ARod's chasing the same HR record as Bonds was, has he come out and said "hey i doped, so its unfair of me to move up the HR list"? Of course he hasnt said that. Bonds went so far as to act the part, he was "crowned" HR king, and cheated and lied just as much as lance did. The same dichotomy existed for Bonds and exists for Arod as well. How is ARod allowed to continue to play when he cheated and his entire career is suspect now?
I guess its all a matter of what you value. Because certainly, you talk to anyone woman, rape is an important issue that needs to be discussed, its not back burner stuff. Certainly Kobe, Tiger, Bonds, ARod and whoever did more than just lie. They lied to their sponsers, and fans, and teams just as much as Lance did, and for that matter just as much as Basso, Ulrich, Hamilton, etc.. did as well.
I refuse to play the game that what lance did is any different than any other cyclist on his team, they all doped, or any other ball player who juiced, or whatever. Its all the same thing. Lies, cheating, decieving.
I dont think there are varying degrees. You cheated, your record should be entirely wiped clean. That goes for all cyclists who doped and it goes for ARod who continues to rack up numbers. His entire record should be erased.
read it ...
Its also a shame, because all those people, who stayed clean, in the Tour, and in baseball, will forever be tainted because of what someone else did. Thats so messed up.
I also think about, some young, kid, rookie in baseball or at the tour, and they see what everyone else is doing, doping, and how you could see that person getting sucked into that world.
Personally I think all sports should do alot more to eradicate and punish cheaters. MLB especially was an absolute joke in this department, and probably covered up the use of steroids by its main headlining stars. Same with the Tour.
The whole sports industry is a joke, and thats a huge reason why I really dont watch any sports.
True but not the same as the Armstrong mess.
Also, When Bonds and some of these other ballpayers were using it was morally wrong but not against the rules of baseball.
it wasnt explicitly against the rules in baseball because MLB and everyone involved looked the other way because their big stars were using. Anyone who used knew what they were doing, and knew it was wrong, even if every single other teammate was using. Petit and Clemons and whoever can say it wasnt against the rules, but they knew what they were doing, and they knew it was wrong. Same with the Tour. More than just lance used, and the top 10 finishes are a complete laughingstock now, you take lance off number 1, and number 2 doped, so did number 3 and on down the line. Clearly the coverup was more than just protecting lance. It was by cycling in general protecting any of its athletes. Thats why I said earlier, Ive refused to watch the tour for years because everyone dopes. Whats the point of them even racing?
Thats why I feel like the microsope solely on lance is silly, as the microscope on Bonds or Mcguire would be. The MLB and the Tour were STACKED with dopers. Not 1 or 10, but hundreds. And both organizations sought to ignore it, downplay it, cover it up, because of the money, fame and glory.
Extending it further, look at the HR list. I'd like to erase the stats of every player who used from that list.
Would you also include anyone who took amphetamines.
i would. and hgh, and creatine and any of that stuff. these guys, MLB players took that stuff for a reason, and they knew its effects. It wasnt just some pill or cream or whatever, it had a purpose, and they knew what that purpose was.
And it pains me to say creatine, because i was a fan of mcgwires when he was an A. and i rooted for him when he hit 70. What seperates Mcgwire from alot of the juicers is I think he's a genuinely sensitive and kind guy. Ive long said, I think his decision to use haunts him to this day, and further, even more upsetting to his psyche I think, is his belief he could have caused kids to use steroids because Mark mcgwire did. I think it genuinely eats at him. There are very few athletes in any sport, that I think feel the sense of shame, and self loathing and angst that Mcgwire feels. But he used, so by my criteria, his records should be erased.
they doped because:
1. it was endemic in the sport at the time
2. the testing was absurd - it was overseen by the body who's primary goal was to see the growth and popularity of pro cycling (conflict of interest). there was no accurate test for epo and testing was done in regulated times making it VERY EASY to avoid testing positive ... you have to remember that although lance passed many tests - so did everyone else ... it wasn't hard ... it should be noted here that when they did finally come up with a test for epo ... they retested some samples from previously and lance's came back as 100 (maximum score for epo) ...
3. pro cyclists don't make a lot of money ... if you want a $35,000 a year contract to ride professionally ... you were given choices ... keep up or you're out and if everyone you are trying to keep up with doped - well, your choice isn't so easy
4. lance would have gotten away with it all if the real crux of his problems didn't rear its ugly head and that is his ego ... if he chose to walk away originally like he did ... and just focused on his other ventures ... it would have still been hearsay and innuendo and something that cyclists would have kept secret ... but his bravado and ego got in the way and he had to come back opening the statute of limitations ... and the sad part is that - when he came back he had to dope in order to stay with cyclists who weren't or he would have been an embarrassment ...
soo ... to answer your question - why!?? ... for some people - it was to continue to have their dream job of being a pro cyclist and to get a paycheck ... for others like lance - it was to build the empire that is lance armstrong ... to become the powerful figure that he still is today ... because many people supported and enabled his behaviour ...
but when he had an opportunity to come clean and own up to his actions ... at a time where he could have shown the integrity you admire in him ... he chose the cowardly route and pleaded the 5th ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=942HcHKbOno
because when faced with the prospect of believing something you don't want to believe - it's much easier to rationalize and deflect ... objectivity is secondary ...
"Life Is What Happens To You When Your Busy Making Other Plans" John Lennon
i think people view tiger radically different in 2012, than they did in 2001. He presented this idea of himself, and image, and in 2009, people found out it was mere image. he had REAL problems. It was all marketing. There is no question people look at him differently now, they feel let down, and the more interesting issue I think is how his own problems have effected him personally. The fact he has won so few tournaments, and hasnt won any majors since the scandal, to me that isnt just a coincidence. The scandal clearly forced him to look at himself in a way he never had before. He spends more time with his kids, than playing golf nowadays, and he'd be the first to admit, thats as it should be.
And lets be fair, peoples personal lives should be just that, but lets do that for all the people discussed. Lance isnt being discussed for doping solely, his off Tour behavior and how he has treated others is being discussed. Ive seen mention of exwives and whatnot. Lets balance that then. The focus should be on doping not on how you feel, or anyone else feels the person or athlete is a creep or an idiot or a jerk.
And in terms of breaking the law, none of these dopers broke the law. Its not against the law to take steroids, or to dope. Its always been moral and ethical issues. Mcgwire taking creatine isnt and wasnt illegal. And Clemons taking HGH wasnt illegal either. Lance taking EPO isnt either. Its the ethical quandry thats the problem. These substances were encouraged, promoted, and dusted under the rug by both the MLB and the Tour.
Its less a problem of wanting to believe something, and more a situation of people liking to attack and criticize others. Its alot easier to take someone else down a peg, than have to face down your own life and see it. Thats why so many people tell others how to live, and few people like to look in the mirror and focus on what could be changed about their own lives.
You go to the 2nd place winner, and 3rd and so on, and they all doped. I dont think they CAN award a winner for those years. I saw some headline the other day saying they plan on just vacating those years from the tour records, and not having any winner at all. The problem I forsee would be, what year do you start vacating it. Doping has been around for awhile, it certainly didnt just start with one athlete.
you are wrong ... taking certain PED is illegal ... such as EPO without a prescription ...
There were PLENTY of laws being broken.
Lets face it Lance wasnt going down the street to his family doctor, and getting a legit prescription for his drugs.
I hope the FEDS go after Lance and he ends up in prison.
And I cant wait to find out how much money the prick was embezzling, from his little charity.
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
there are also laws related to trafficking and use of public tax dollars for illegal purposes ...
lance is a very powerful person ... he has friggin' obama's number on his cell ... he basically had the federal investigation dropped through political pressure ... the feds have stayed silent as to why they chose to close the case ... and it should be noted here that the USADA case against lance was done WITHOUT any evidence compiled by the feds ... so, the reality is that there is even more incriminating evidence out there ...
i believe the feds are staying out of it because there are a lot of key players involved in this scam ... moreso than just lance ... big multinational corporations ... lots of illegal activities ... they just don't want to open those floodgates ...
When this thing truly BLOWS UP!!! ( It hasnt yet)
Lance will be going to PRISON!
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
yup ... oakley too (which is probably why they still haven't dropped him publicly) ...
there is a whole house of cards that needs to collapse ... despite what one person may think - i have said from the get go - everyone needs to fall ... the UCI, nike, oakley ... everyone ...
yes, bonds cheated.
he, the ex bass player from tower of power and his trainer (an old friend)
no, he didn't transport drugs in a private jet
no, he didn't pay a shady doctor millions
no, he had basically NO endorsements, before or after
no, he wasn't a phony. he knew and we all knew he was just a ballplayer.
no, his cheating did not involve any more than the he and his 2 co-conspirators. it was never far reaching.
no, he never had any real power other than when he had a bat in his hands. he never had friends in high places (unlike clemens, who tried to exploit that)
no, you can't start wiping out numbers because we will never truly know who was and wasn't cheating in baseball
the one big similarity is that the feds went after both with an unmatched zeal when compared to ANY other ball player or cyclist. jeff nowitzki was right in the middle of both.
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
It not FAIR!!!!!!!!
life's not fair
Vegas 93, Vegas 98, Vegas 00 (10 year show), Vegas 03, Vegas 06
VIC 07
EV LA1 08
Seattle1 09, Seattle2 09, Salt Lake 09, LA4 09
Columbus 10
EV LA 11
Vancouver 11
Missoula 12
Portland 13, Spokane 13
St. Paul 14, Denver 14
again, signifying lance as this big kahuna, masks the larger problem, which is not doping by one individual, but the mentality that permeates sports in general: if you lose, you are a loser, anything less than being the 1st one to win a race is a complete failure.
The reason cycling hasnt investigated ALL its riders, and why MLB hasnt even years later hasnt done much of anything to root out steroid use, is because it was tacitly endorsed and supported by the higher ups in each sport. And that isnt being investigated, nor will it be. Because it involves commisioners, and CEO;s and heads of corporations, it involves the leadership of each individual sports, and plus, as I said, the idea of winning is the only acceptable option permeates american society, it doesnt just stop when an athlete changes into street clothes.
For me, Im less interested in the legality of it. Because I dont think anyone should be allowed to stop people from putting stuff into their bodies, if they want to. Im more interested in the moral and ethical implications of it all.
and again - your failure to read the evidence misleads you ...
lance was/is a big kahuna ... he is not simply one athlete amongst many who cheated and has been caught ... i do wish you would read at least a summary of the case against him - i think it would change your perspective significantly ...
you are right tho in saying that it was complicit in the sport and if you follow what i've been saying all along - there needs to be accountability on all fronts ... but your persistent position that lance is just another athlete that doped is naive and wrong ...
as for the moral and ethical implications of regulating sports as it pertains to drugs and anything else is to protect the innocent ... to protect the riders that choose to race clean ... to protect the integrity of the sport ...
thats why i find this board so curious. People seem to view things as black and white. If you arent out to have someones head, somehow you support them. Its not an either or proposistion. As in all issues in life, we may agree with parts of one side, and agree with parts of the other side.
This case isnt black and white. It involves cancer, and charities. It involves something that cant be measured or quantified: Lance being an inspiration to cancer victims. Him being a model of strength for people during that time, if you had cancer during 2005, and his courage propelled you to try and beat out the disease, and you did in fact survive cancer, thats something that is intrinsic, and its something that cant be taken away by doping, or cheating. How could it? You were pushed on to beat a disease, then learned your hero doped? How is you being alive a bad thing?
It also is merely 1 example, in an endless parade, a cavalcade of dopers, cheaters and liars, in all sports.
How do you measure a mans worth? If they do something bad
I deal in those realms. Im not interested in joining the "lets hate on lance" bandwagon. Its not constructive, nor is it relavent. Im interested in the larger issues cheating in sports reveals. Why did they cheat? What can we do to make sure cheating isnt tolerated? How do we need to rearrange society and current paradigms to allow this shift to occur? And maybe it can be as simple as when you are at a basketball game and you take mental note of the fact that whenever ANY CALL is made against the home team, the crowd boos. Being cognisant of that. And maybe trying to implement a world where things arent like that.
People should be allowed to support and idolize whoever they want. Im not going to punch someone in the face if they say Lance is still a hero in their eyes. And nor should you.
Theres also two strains of thinking here: 1. That when someone does something wrong, we castigate them to the grave. Or 2. We acknowledge the wrong, try to right it, and move on. America is founded on the idea, that you cant change. People are in prison for life. People who are felons cant buy houses and cant vote. You are forever marked, tagged. People change. And do. I dont want to live in a world where I cant change who I am.