BIN LADEN IS DEAD

EmBleve

Parksy wrote:

To Jeanwah:

I have to disagree with what you keep saying "QUESTION EVERYTHING"

This isn't X-Files. Democracy is what it is. Political parties have leaders. Countries have leaders.

I'm not suggesting everyone blindly follow what they say.. but CUT THEM SOME SLACK!!

If you cannot trust Obama when he says bin Laden is dead.... then I pity you for living in a state of

constant concern.

Yes folks, it's ok to TRUST your government.

woow. You always have to listen and read what you see and hear with a grain of salt. If you believe everything the government tells you, well...I just don't know what to say about that. That's pretty scary.

Byrnzie

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9625370

'The body was photographed before being buried at sea, although no images have been released by the Obama administration.

...It was not clear Monday whether the Obama administration intended to release its photos of bin Laden's body.'

ledvedderman

Byrnzie wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/9625370

'The body was photographed before being buried at sea, although no images have been released by the Obama administration.

...It was not clear Monday whether the Obama administration intended to release its photos of bin Laden's body.'

...which makes total sense

VINNY GOOMBA

Jeanwah wrote:

I think you're right. And I'm hoping it's true, but to report on this while also saying, "the body's been disposed of into the sea", is saying that other than waiting for DNA reports, there really isn't any proof. You just have to believe what I'm saying. And to believe any politician, Obama or not, is difficult for me.

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I don't believe everything I hear, but I agree with Godfather and Monster Rain on this -- that orchestrating cover-up of this magnitude would be political suicide if it ever came up to be false. if its fake, and bin laden shows up in a month, that would be hell for Obama. it is good and natural to question it though.

I don't think this was a politically risky move considering that the guy could have been dead for years already-- and if this was the case, he sure isn't going to pop up and prove it all wrong. There are plenty of reasons to keep a guy like OBL "alive" in the public's eyes, and that could be what has happened here. I don't even think the president is truly in the know about most of what the CIA and military does. I think it is entirely possible that President Obama could believe with all of his heart that the real Osama was killed in the last week, as this is all he has been made privy to. I also believe that it could also be just the opposite, and this could be completely politically motivated, announcing the death of OBL. The media and the government have lied to us all so many times that it really is impossible to take everything they say at face value. I wish it was the opposite and that I could trust almost everything they have told us. Their credibility is fast approaching any Joe Blow I would meet on the street that could give me the news from his perspective.

I am curious, and maybe someone here has the answer for me... How does someone use a DNA test to find out if the person they killed is OBL? Wouldn't that require having a sample of his DNA prior to his death? For it to be truly proven to be him, wouldn't that sample have to be taken with OBL being in the room? For example, say some of his hair in a hideout where he had allegedly been based on being tipped off by someone close to OBL-- is that really evidence enough? Considering he was supposedly an asset of ours in the 80s, did they draw blood from the guy / take a lock of his hair / swab his mouth and keep it on file? I never understood how someone so slippery can have his DNA be used as proof. If someone was ever truly close enough to get his DNA undoubtedly, they were also close enough to catch him / kill him, OR, they got it from him while he was working for... us?

It is what it is. All we can hope for is that terrorism dies with OBL, our troops can come home, and America can revive our civil liberties which were put on life support because of a reactionary response to September 11th. Here's hoping that the death of OBL, whenever it really happened, is a shot in the arm for this country that desperately needs it. A guy can dream, can't he?

EmBleve

Make no mistake: they tell you what they want you to know. just sayin..

ledvedderman

These photos could do much more harm than good. I'm sure they will leak out though.

butterjam

Byrnzie wrote:

Bush & Obama are responsible for more deaths of innocent men, women, and children than Bin Laden.

Oh well, nevermind.

I gotta run with this one.

That really depends on how you decide who is responsible for what. The facts are that Bush entered us in two wars and a psuedo war in Pakistan with drone attacks. Obama stepped up the drone attacks and is getting us involved elsewhere. These wars have caused a lot of destruction on our part.

But how many suicide attacks and deaths are because of al_Qaeda and its former leader? These kill innocent people more indiscriminately than are soldiers.

I don't argue with your premise that the war effort is doing more harm than good. I'm all for pulling our troops home all over the world. But to suggest that Bush and Obama are the more evil ones is ludicrous. How many lives does our gov't save by donating billions around the world? I know personally from my friends that are in the peace corps in Africa, that they love Bush because of all the money we gave Africa while he was in office.

ledvedderman

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I think you're right. And I'm hoping it's true, but to report on this while also saying, "the body's been disposed of into the sea", is saying that other than waiting for DNA reports, there really isn't any proof. You just have to believe what I'm saying. And to believe any politician, Obama or not, is difficult for me.

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I don't believe everything I hear, but I agree with Godfather and Monster Rain on this -- that orchestrating cover-up of this magnitude would be political suicide if it ever came up to be false. if its fake, and bin laden shows up in a month, that would be hell for Obama. it is good and natural to question it though.

I don't think this was a politically risky move considering that the guy could have been dead for years already-- and if this was the case, he sure isn't going to pop up and prove it all wrong. There are plenty of reasons to keep a guy like OBL "alive" in the public's eyes, and that could be what has happened here. I don't even think the president is truly in the know about most of what the CIA and military does. I think it is entirely possible that President Obama could believe with all of his heart that the real Osama was killed in the last week, as this is all he has been made privy to. I also believe that it could also be just the opposite, and this could be completely politically motivated, announcing the death of OBL. The media and the government have lied to us all so many times that it really is impossible to take everything they say at face value. I wish it was the opposite and that I could trust almost everything they have told us. Their credibility is fast approaching any Joe Blow I would meet on the street that could give me the news from his perspective.

I am curious, and maybe someone here has the answer for me... How does someone use a DNA test to find out if the person they killed is OBL? Wouldn't that require having a sample of his DNA prior to his death? For it to be truly proven to be him, wouldn't that sample have to be taken with OBL being in the room? For example, say some of his hair in a hideout where he had allegedly been based on being tipped off by someone close to OBL-- is that really evidence enough? Considering he was supposedly an asset of ours in the 80s, did they draw blood from the guy / take a lock of his hair / swab his mouth and keep it on file? I never understood how someone so slippery can have his DNA be used as proof. If someone was ever truly close enough to get his DNA undoubtedly, they were also close enough to catch him / kill him, OR, they got it from him while he was working for... us?

It is what it is. All we can hope for is that terrorism dies with OBL, our troops can come home, and America can revive our civil liberties which were put on life support because of a reactionary response to September 11th. Here's hoping that the death of OBL, whenever it really happened, is a shot in the arm for this country that desperately needs it. A guy can dream, can't he?

Couldn't they use DNA from a family member to match it up?

shadowcast

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I think you're right. And I'm hoping it's true, but to report on this while also saying, "the body's been disposed of into the sea", is saying that other than waiting for DNA reports, there really isn't any proof. You just have to believe what I'm saying. And to believe any politician, Obama or not, is difficult for me.

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I don't believe everything I hear, but I agree with Godfather and Monster Rain on this -- that orchestrating cover-up of this magnitude would be political suicide if it ever came up to be false. if its fake, and bin laden shows up in a month, that would be hell for Obama. it is good and natural to question it though.

I don't think this was a politically risky move considering that the guy could have been dead for years already-- and if this was the case, he sure isn't going to pop up and prove it all wrong. There are plenty of reasons to keep a guy like OBL "alive" in the public's eyes, and that could be what has happened here. I don't even think the president is truly in the know about most of what the CIA and military does. I think it is entirely possible that President Obama could believe with all of his heart that the real Osama was killed in the last week, as this is all he has been made privy to. I also believe that it could also be just the opposite, and this could be completely politically motivated, announcing the death of OBL. The media and the government have lied to us all so many times that it really is impossible to take everything they say at face value. I wish it was the opposite and that I could trust almost everything they have told us. Their credibility is fast approaching any Joe Blow I would meet on the street that could give me the news from his perspective.

I am curious, and maybe someone here has the answer for me... How does someone use a DNA test to find out if the person they killed is OBL? Wouldn't that require having a sample of his DNA prior to his death? For it to be truly proven to be him, wouldn't that sample have to be taken with OBL being in the room? For example, say some of his hair in a hideout where he had allegedly been based on being tipped off by someone close to OBL-- is that really evidence enough? Considering he was supposedly an asset of ours in the 80s, did they draw blood from the guy / take a lock of his hair / swab his mouth and keep it on file? I never understood how someone so slippery can have his DNA be used as proof. If someone was ever truly close enough to get his DNA undoubtedly, they were also close enough to catch him / kill him, OR, they got it from him while he was working for... us?

It is what it is. All we can hope for is that terrorism dies with OBL, our troops can come home, and America can revive our civil liberties which were put on life support because of a reactionary response to September 11th. Here's hoping that the death of OBL, whenever it really happened, is a shot in the arm for this country that desperately needs it. A guy can dream, can't he?

You can swab family members to find DNA . 6'4 middle eastern man with a DNA match to his sister=Bin Laden

Nitro

shadowcast wrote:

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

Jeanwah wrote:

I think you're right. And I'm hoping it's true, but to report on this while also saying, "the body's been disposed of into the sea", is saying that other than waiting for DNA reports, there really isn't any proof. You just have to believe what I'm saying. And to believe any politician, Obama or not, is difficult for me.

JonnyPistachio wrote:

I don't believe everything I hear, but I agree with Godfather and Monster Rain on this -- that orchestrating cover-up of this magnitude would be political suicide if it ever came up to be false. if its fake, and bin laden shows up in a month, that would be hell for Obama. it is good and natural to question it though.

I don't think this was a politically risky move considering that the guy could have been dead for years already-- and if this was the case, he sure isn't going to pop up and prove it all wrong. There are plenty of reasons to keep a guy like OBL "alive" in the public's eyes, and that could be what has happened here. I don't even think the president is truly in the know about most of what the CIA and military does. I think it is entirely possible that President Obama could believe with all of his heart that the real Osama was killed in the last week, as this is all he has been made privy to. I also believe that it could also be just the opposite, and this could be completely politically motivated, announcing the death of OBL. The media and the government have lied to us all so many times that it really is impossible to take everything they say at face value. I wish it was the opposite and that I could trust almost everything they have told us. Their credibility is fast approaching any Joe Blow I would meet on the street that could give me the news from his perspective.

I am curious, and maybe someone here has the answer for me... How does someone use a DNA test to find out if the person they killed is OBL? Wouldn't that require having a sample of his DNA prior to his death? For it to be truly proven to be him, wouldn't that sample have to be taken with OBL being in the room? For example, say some of his hair in a hideout where he had allegedly been based on being tipped off by someone close to OBL-- is that really evidence enough? Considering he was supposedly an asset of ours in the 80s, did they draw blood from the guy / take a lock of his hair / swab his mouth and keep it on file? I never understood how someone so slippery can have his DNA be used as proof. If someone was ever truly close enough to get his DNA undoubtedly, they were also close enough to catch him / kill him, OR, they got it from him while he was working for... us?

It is what it is. All we can hope for is that terrorism dies with OBL, our troops can come home, and America can revive our civil liberties which were put on life support because of a reactionary response to September 11th. Here's hoping that the death of OBL, whenever it really happened, is a shot in the arm for this country that desperately needs it. A guy can dream, can't he?

You can swab family members to find DNA . 6'4 middle eastern man with a DNA match to his sister=Bin Laden

Which apparently is what they did. From CNN: Officials compared DNA of the person killed at the Abbottobad compound with bin Laden "family DNA" to determine if the 9/11 mastermind had in fact been killed, a senior administration official said.

PilateOfTheStorm

EmBleve wrote:

Make no mistake: they tell you what they want you to know. just sayin..

norm

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

It is what it is. All we can hope for is that terrorism dies with OBL, our troops can come home, and America can revive our civil liberties which were put on life support because of a reactionary response to September 11th. Here's hoping that the death of OBL, whenever it really happened, is a shot in the arm for this country that desperately needs it. A guy can dream, can't he?

Jason P

Byrnzie wrote:

Bush & Obama are responsible for more deaths of innocent men, women, and children than Bin Laden.

Oh well, nevermind.

I assume you are using the logic of "cause and effect".

redrock

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

It is what it is. All we can hope for is that terrorism dies with OBL, our troops can come home, and America can revive our civil liberties which were put on life support because of a reactionary response to September 11th. Here's hoping that the death of OBL, whenever it really happened, is a shot in the arm for this country that desperately needs it. A guy can dream, can't he?

Unfortunately, you will have to wake up from that dream.

VINNY GOOMBA

Nitro wrote:

Which apparently is what they did. From CNN: Officials compared DNA of the person killed at the Abbottobad compound with bin Laden "family DNA" to determine if the 9/11 mastermind had in fact been killed, a senior administration official said.

Right. Interesting!

I just read about the method that someone posted in this thread earlier:

"Of course, to ID Bin Laden in this way, they would have to have some Bin Laden DNA lying around to compare it to. I don't know if they had some from some inside source, or not. What they do have is brain tissue from Bin Laden's sister, who died in the US. They can compare his genetic signature to hers and determine if they are related - which is as close as you can get to guaranteeing it's Bin Laden without a sample of his actual DNA from prior to his death."

I wonder how that all went down-- men in black showed up at the funeral home of OBL's sis being super polite and persuasive?

I personally would require that the testing be done by more than one private (and maybe even a few foreign-private) laboratory to accept the results as accurate. But hey, that's just me.

Idris

Jason P wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

Bush & Obama are responsible for more deaths of innocent men, women, and children than Bin Laden.

Oh well, nevermind.

I assume you are using the logic of "cause and effect".

I'm not going to speak for Byrnzie, but it seems like he's just stating a simple fact, that Obama and Bush are responsible for more death than UBL.

redrock

Byrnzie wrote:

ledvedderman wrote:

Byrnzie wrote:

I may be wrong, but aren't extra-judcial assassinations illegal under international law?

Is it an assassination when firefighting takes place on both sides?

They've admitted that they went in with the intention to kill him.

From the guardian article you already quoted:

"the U.S. special forces who stormed the compound came face to face with their prey. "

butterjam

When an al-Qaeda leader comes out and says that Osama is dead, along with our parade of info, personally that is good enough for me. I understand the skepticism, I find it hard to trust just about anything when it comes to our gov't. But to turn this into a conspiracy theory might be a bit of a stretch.

I personally don't believe in them because it requires too many things to go right and more importantly, I don't believe are gov't is competent enough to pull it off.

Bin laden dead is a definite blow to al-Qaeda for the time being. But this could rally more support for them down the road. Time will tell. But this sure does give a morale boast for a our troops though.

Get_Right

VINNY GOOMBA wrote:

I wonder how that all went down-- men in black showed up at the funeral home of OBL's sis being super polite and persuasive?

Probably more like a court order stating its a matter of national security.

gimmesometruth27

people are celebrating as if we "won" something. based on the fact that osama is not the only terrorist on earth and that there are others, and based on the cost i would have to ask what it is exactly that we won... i do not feel that one dude is worth spending a trillion dollars and over 5000 american servicepeople's lives...

From 9/11 To Osama Bin Laden's Death, Congress Spent $1.28 Trillion In War On Terror
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/0 ... 56390.html

NEW YORK CITY -- It took 3,519 days since September 11, 2001, for U.S. forces to finally kill Osama bin Laden, the chief architect of the terrorist attacks that define that date.



During that time period, two wars were launched in the Middle East, each with the stated purpose of fulfilling the objectives of a larger “war”: that on terror. Bin Laden’s capture doesn’t halt those operations. But it does provide an end point to a chapter that was politically contentious, emotionally exhausting and quite costly.



How much money did the United States spend to capture bin Laden in the operation that took place Sunday? That precise a figure is difficult (perhaps impossible) to pinpoint. A much easier price tag, however, can be placed on the costs of foreign operations that were launched in response to the 9/11 attacks.



According to a March 29, 2011 Congressional Research Service report, Congress has approved a total of $1.283 trillion for “military operations, base security, reconstruction, foreign aid, embassy costs, and veterans’ health care for the three operations initiated since the 9/11 attacks.” Those three operations include Operation Enduring Freedom (OEF) Afghanistan; Operation Noble Eagle (ONE), providing enhanced security at military bases; and Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF).



Broken down individually, the government has spent $806 billion for Iraq, $444 billion for Afghanistan, $29 billion for enhanced security and $6 billion on “unallocated” items. The vast majority of all the money appropriated has gone to the Department of Defense, and of that money more and more is being spent on Operation & Maintenance (O&M) funding, which went from $42 billion in FY2004 to $79 billion in FY2008. Only $67 billion (or 5 percent) went to the State Department or USAID. Only $8 billion (or 1 percent) went to veterans' care, via the Department of Veterans Affairs.



Because U.S. troop presence will remain at relatively high levels in Afghanistan and, to a lesser extent, Iraq in the years ahead -- and because veteran health-care needs will likely only get worse -- the price will continue to rise. If Congress also approves the president’s FY2012 war-funding request, the cumulative cost of post-9/11 operations would reach $1.415 trillion. The Congressional Budget Office -- the nonpartisan accountant for lawmakers -- estimates that over the next ten years, total costs “could reach $1.8 trillion by FY2021.”



Bin Laden, of course, was found in neither Iraq nor Afghanistan but in neighboring Pakistan. And he was killed not by army personnel but by a covert Navy SEALS unit aided by CIA intelligence. Budgets for those agencies and entities were not covered in the CRS report. However, the study did look at money spent on counter-insurgency funds for the government of Pakistan. Since 9/11 the United States has appropriated money for that purpose just once: a $400 million expenditure in FY2008.