Jingoism "refers to excessive bias in judging one's own country as superior to others – an extreme type of nationalism."
I wonder what the term is for an excessive bias in judging a different country's population in that all the citizens think they are superior to others?
someone i used to know used to joke that americans invented 2 things, patriotism, and size 4XL shorts. usa usa. lol...
all kidding aside though. bin laden has been gone just less than 48 hours, and the government has not said "THAT"S IT! we got all of them, everybody loves us again, hoorayyyy!"
unfortunately i don't think that is going to happen anytime soon though.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Everybody is talking about justice being done with osama's death. Justice for who? The people who lost their lives on 9/11. I really don't think so because terrorism still exists.
I hear what you are saying, although I don't agree with a lot of what you said, but there seems to be a bit of miscommunication going on with the Justice issue. When people are saying Justice, they don't mean that terrorism is forever over, or that the dead of 9/11 are smiling down from wherever. It's not so broad as that. It is simply that the guy committed a crime, and he paid for it. Justice. Think of it on a smaller scale. Guy commits murder, and gets brought to justice. Did it end murder forever? Will there never be another murder? Of course there will be, that's not the point. The point is THAT guy won't murder again, and those who were wronged (not the actual victims of course, they're dead after all, but families, etc) often feel a sense of closure with that. There are plenty of people who feel a sense of closure or justice with the death of bin Laden, and nobody is going to change their mind on that, nor should anybody really be trying to.
Personally I didn't lose anybody in 9/11 or even know anybody who was lost, so I don't feel any personal justice. But as an American I felt like Osama should pay for his crime, and he has made it clear he would never be taken alive, so I knew it would probably mean his death. Nobody is under the impression that the world is all unicorns and roses now that he is dead.
I think this is a great post Futon.
They had a choice to take him out. I'd like to know from the people who don't think this is a big deal -- Should they have let him go? or should they have stopped pursuing him years ago? I honestly don't know.. was bin laden even able to stay active in al quada over the last few years? was he significant at this point in 2011? I don't know, but I feel the world is a better place without him.
and yeah afarid, OF COURSE terrorism still exists, and it always will. But does that mean we give up and let bin laden go? we have to fight it to some degree.
I've watched the old footage on t.v. after hitler was defeted and there were ticker tape parades and partying in the streets and same when japan surendered and now that bin laden is dead you guys critize others for celebrating this moment in history, who are you to judge anybody for showing emotions during this event ?
I got news for ya, we(here on the train) are no different and no better than any of those people celebrating,chanting or lifting their shirts and if you really believe you are in some way better then them your sadly mistaken, we all make it through this life the best we can than we leave this world.
don't waste your time judging someone else for showing how they fell especially if you haven't shared their experiances.
Godfather.
Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?
I believe a lot people do, I think they see it as beggining to some normalcie,I think a lot of those people we saw on t.v. felt so much anger and hurt for 10 years and now have a reason give up a little of that anger and make dealing with the pain a little easier,
all of us that did not live in NY or DC during that time could never understand the fear, sense of loss and anger
that those people experianced so to point a finger at them and tell them how wrong they are is just crazy talk.
Jingoism "refers to excessive bias in judging one's own country as superior to others – an extreme type of nationalism."
I wonder what the term is for an excessive bias in judging a different country's population in that all the citizens think they are superior to others?
The term would be the time period in where the superior people had access to more in their country than the people of the country they feel superior over and the agreement of give and take ... what do you think ?
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Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?
this is a good post. i was just typing essentially what you just said. this is essentially what we did in iraq, deposed hussein and we are still there fighting now many years later? bin laden is gone, yet those he inspired are not giving up. celebrations are premature, especially when the fight goes on.
So if Hitler escaped and was found 10 years later in Argentina there would not have been a celebration around the world?
Second, did I miss all the ticker-tape parades and mass gatherings to celebrate the death of Bin Laden? Besides news reports in D.C., New York and a few ball games, did anyone posting on this board visually witness the nationwide celebration in the streets?
someone i used to know used to joke that americans invented 2 things, patriotism, and size 4XL shorts. usa usa. lol...
all kidding aside though. bin laden has been gone just less than 48 hours, and the government has not said "THAT"S IT! we got all of them, everybody loves us again, hoorayyyy!"
unfortunately i don't think that is going to happen anytime soon though.
it never will, they line up and say help us then curse us for doing it...crazy.
I've watched the old footage on t.v. after hitler was defeted and there were ticker tape parades and partying in the streets and same when japan surendered and now that bin laden is dead you guys critize others for celebrating this moment in history
Celebrating the end of a war or military campaign is a very different thing to revelling in vengeance.
I can understand emotions of relief or vindication in a sense of justice being served (though in my opinion justice is infinitely better served in a court of law than in a gunfight). What I can't understand or condone is glee in bloodlust and nationalistic triumphalism. It's ugly and demeaning.
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Jingoism "refers to excessive bias in judging one's own country as superior to others – an extreme type of nationalism."
I wonder what the term is for an excessive bias in judging a different country's population in that all the citizens think they are superior to others?
The term would be the time period in where the superior people had access to more in their country than the people of the country they feel superior over and the agreement of give and take ... what do you think ?
I think ... that that the superior people .. wait, uh ... damn, I'm now confused. On to other debates
I believe a lot people do, I think they see it as beggining to some normalcie,I think a lot of those people we saw on t.v. felt so much anger and hurt for 10 years and now have a reason give up a little of that anger and make dealing with the pain a little easier,
all of us that did not live in NY or DC during that time could never understand the fear, sense of loss and anger
that those people experianced so to point a finger at them and tell them how wrong they are is just crazy talk.
Godfather.
If that's your point of view, fair enough.
Like I've said, people of many different nationalities died on 9/11, in addition many other terrorist attacks have occured around the world since then too. For example the 7/7 bombings in London, which may have been on a smaller scale, but the sense of fear, loss and anger I would imagine is something very similar. I live just outside of London, I have many friends and family who work there. I'll be honest, ever since the bombings I've been completely paranoid about using the underground system, and the safety of those I care about, and I certainly don't feel any safer now that bin Laden is gone.
It just doesn't feel right to gloat to me. It feels like a time for reflection, and a time to show a little humility. Is it really right to cheer one man's death when so many innocent people are experiencing their 9/11 on the other side of the world right now? Sure it might not all be happening on one day like it did in the US, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
So if Hitler escaped and was found 10 years later in Argentina there would not have been a celebration around the world?
Second, did I miss all the ticker-tape parades and mass gatherings to celebrate the death of Bin Laden? Besides news reports in D.C., New York and a few ball games, did anyone posting on this board visually witness the nationwide celebration in the streets?
well, germany unconditionally surrendered within a week of hitler's death, so if we had 10 years of peace in europe and then hitler was found alive in argentina i think there will be celebrations, but not to the extent of the immediacy and enthusiasom shown when VE day occurred. you need to use proper context when comparing the two events. in 1955 the usa was enjoying unbridled prosperity, a population explosion of the baby boomers, and we were on our way to superpower status. WWII does not compare to the war on terror at all. they are fundamentally different and we fought those wars for fundamentally different reasons. most will argue that WWII had to be fought, and that iraq, especially, was a war of choice since hussein had zero to do with 9/11. and the afghanistan war was started out of revenge, and to find one man dead or alive. also, when hitler died germany surrendered because they could not physically carry on the war anymore. they had no manufacturing, and many of the last forces defending berlin were comprised of young boys and older men, because all of the men aged in between were dead, deployed, or pows. in conventional war you have two goals, one is to neutralize and defeat your enemy, the other is to aquire land by driving the enemy off of the pland they are occupying. those goals were not the goals of the war on terror. those goals were to eliminate extremism, which would be better accomplished through eduacation than bombs. there is no comparison to the end of WWII and the killing of bin laden.
i have seen the facebook celebrations. does that count? it is pretty much the same thing, a bunch of uneducated dolts telling me to repost as my status something that is completly factually wrong.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Reading this thread I just don't know what to say...i am shocked ...
we just took out a nasty human being, successfully punishing this coward for his crimes...he affected so many more lives than just simply the people who died on 9/11...what about all the youth he brainwashed into extremism and martyring themselves...I am sick and tired of living in a world where criminals always have an excuse for their actions and it is the punishment they receive that is the bad thing...this guy chose to do what he did, we did not create him...people can take things anyway they want and they need to be prepared for the consequences of their reactions (as I am sure he was)...but the fact that this guy helped create a terror network that preys on young impressionable kids is disgusting and the world is a better place without him specifically...
and to those that brought it up, Being proud of your country achieving a goal is not jingoism...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
someone i used to know used to joke that americans invented 2 things, patriotism, and size 4XL shorts. usa usa. lol...
all kidding aside though. bin laden has been gone just less than 48 hours, and the government has not said "THAT"S IT! we got all of them, everybody loves us again, hoorayyyy!"
unfortunately i don't think that is going to happen anytime soon though.
it never will, they line up and say help us then curse us for doing it...crazy.
Reading this thread I just don't know what to say...i am shocked ...
we just took out a nasty human being, successfully punishing this coward for his crimes...he affected so many more lives than just simply the people who died on 9/11...what about all the youth he brainwashed into extremism and martyring themselves...I am sick and tired of living in a world where criminals always have an excuse for their actions and it is the punishment they receive that is the bad thing...this guy chose to do what he did, we did not create him...people can take things anyway they want and they need to be prepared for the consequences of their reactions (as I am sure he was)...but the fact that this guy helped create a terror network that preys on young impressionable kids is disgusting and the world is a better place without him specifically...
and to those that brought it up, Being proud of your country achieving a goal is not jingoism...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
you did create him ... look who funded him in his early battles against the soviets ...
ultimately, it's not about lamenting his death ... it is about america's failure to recognize their role in death and suffering in this world ... you guys think your armies and spies are sent around the world spreading freedom and democracy when all they are are puppets to your multi-nationals ... that is what is truly sad ... how many people have died in iraq over a trumped-up war!?? ... where is the humility? ... where is the apology? ... where is the accountability?? ... there is none in the US ... because people continue to wear the colours of the flag in their hearts and minds without actually seeing what that really means ...
I can understand emotions of relief or vindication in a sense of justice being served (though in my opinion justice is infinitely better served in a court of law than in a gunfight). What I can't understand or condone is glee in bloodlust and nationalistic triumphalism. It's ugly and demeaning.
This is my feeling on the matter too. Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains at the back of it all. There are no 'winners' in all this.
...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
Reading this thread I just don't know what to say...i am shocked ...
we just took out a nasty human being, successfully punishing this coward for his crimes...he affected so many more lives than just simply the people who died on 9/11...what about all the youth he brainwashed into extremism and martyring themselves...I am sick and tired of living in a world where criminals always have an excuse for their actions and it is the punishment they receive that is the bad thing...this guy chose to do what he did, we did not create him...people can take things anyway they want and they need to be prepared for the consequences of their reactions (as I am sure he was)...but the fact that this guy helped create a terror network that preys on young impressionable kids is disgusting and the world is a better place without him specifically...
and to those that brought it up, Being proud of your country achieving a goal is not jingoism...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
Reading this thread I just don't know what to say...i am shocked ...
we just took out a nasty human being, successfully punishing this coward for his crimes...he affected so many more lives than just simply the people who died on 9/11...what about all the youth he brainwashed into extremism and martyring themselves...I am sick and tired of living in a world where criminals always have an excuse for their actions and it is the punishment they receive that is the bad thing...this guy chose to do what he did, we did not create him...people can take things anyway they want and they need to be prepared for the consequences of their reactions (as I am sure he was)...but the fact that this guy helped create a terror network that preys on young impressionable kids is disgusting and the world is a better place without him specifically...
and to those that brought it up, Being proud of your country achieving a goal is not jingoism...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
you did create him ... look who funded him in his early battles against the soviets ...
ultimately, it's not about lamenting his death ... it is about america's failure to recognize their role in death and suffering in this world ... you guys think your armies and spies are sent around the world spreading freedom and democracy when all they are are puppets to your multi-nationals ... that is what is truly sad ... how many people have died in iraq over a trumped-up war!?? ... where is the humility? ... where is the apology? ... where is the accountability?? ... there is none in the US ... because people continue to wear the colours of the flag in their hearts and minds without actually seeing what that really means ...
I think Mike makes a good point though.. bin laden was not a robot. He wasnt created by the US. He chose to fight the US because he didnt like the way the US was conducting operations. Yes, the US funded his cause (terrible, I know), but bin laden inherited like 80 mil, didnt he? would he have fought the soviets either way? probably. what that has to do with Iraq, I have no idea. the US govt is not perfect. Many people know Iraq was a huge mistake...
If you really wanted to compare the two...lets imagine if Bin laden had all the resources (militarily) that the US has. The western world would be erased from the map. Every single innocent man, woman, and child would be killed...nuked and erased from history if he had his choice.
but because of Iraq (and the huge mistake that it was), praising bin ladens fate is wrong? I personally don't think so. I am able to express concern that I feel Iraq was a huge mistake... I did everything I could - -voted against Bush, to get away from more mistakes like Iraq, but I would NEVER, say bin laden meeting his fate is not important in the grand scheme of things.
I head a discussion on the radio similar to the second link. I thought this was interesting:
"In the case of al Qaeda, this is a virtual organization held together by its message and the inspiration it provided. A large part of that inspiration was bin Laden. Ayman Zawahiri may have been the brains behind the outfit, but he did not excite people. When people volunteered for jihad, they were volunteering to be bin Laden’s foot soldiers, not Ayman Zawahiri’s or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s. The loss of bin Laden’s personality is hugely important because it was so much part of al Qaeda’s appeal."
I'm surprised that some people think that bin ladens death changes nothing. al quada will continue, but without bin ladens personality, ability to recruit, and also his wealth.
Some of these posts are very disheartening, and I'm reminded why I stopped posting here back in '03 and didn't even login to the forums for almost 8 years. I have a long list of things I could say about some of the people here, but since Judgmental would be at the top of the list I would be a complete hypocrite if I said what I really thought. But I will probably come across that way no matter what.
The bottom line is that this is a complicated issue, and there are people who are going to feel different ways about it. If you feel the need to judge or insult somebody for the way they feel about this, then that's really your problem not theirs. You might want to look at what it is about you that makes you feel the need to prove that you are smarter than somebody else, or rag on somebody for how they feel, or just act bitter.
"When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself."
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
And what change might that be?
a political climate that gave us things like the patriot act for starters...I realize that there is no winning with you Byrnzie so I know better than to start...;)
I don't think you are interested in my long answer anyway so I will simply say, if it is okay for people to blame the US for "creating" OBLs, than it is okay for people to blame OBL for creating an America that they may not recognize and leave it at that.
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Reading this thread I just don't know what to say...i am shocked ...
we just took out a nasty human being, successfully punishing this coward for his crimes...he affected so many more lives than just simply the people who died on 9/11...what about all the youth he brainwashed into extremism and martyring themselves...I am sick and tired of living in a world where criminals always have an excuse for their actions and it is the punishment they receive that is the bad thing...this guy chose to do what he did, we did not create him...people can take things anyway they want and they need to be prepared for the consequences of their reactions (as I am sure he was)...but the fact that this guy helped create a terror network that preys on young impressionable kids is disgusting and the world is a better place without him specifically...
and to those that brought it up, Being proud of your country achieving a goal is not jingoism...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
you did create him ... look who funded him in his early battles against the soviets ...
ultimately, it's not about lamenting his death ... it is about america's failure to recognize their role in death and suffering in this world ... you guys think your armies and spies are sent around the world spreading freedom and democracy when all they are are puppets to your multi-nationals ... that is what is truly sad ... how many people have died in iraq over a trumped-up war!?? ... where is the humility? ... where is the apology? ... where is the accountability?? ... there is none in the US ... because people continue to wear the colours of the flag in their hearts and minds without actually seeing what that really means ...
he chose to turn into what he did...the US did not force that hand...I don't think there are people in the streets hailing the missle strike that killed the grandchildren of Khadaffi, there aren't people in the streets burning children in effigy, there are a SMALL amount of people overly excited at the prospect of the figure head of the group that caused 9/11 being dispatched...I don't understand how you can make the leap to all the other things...people are allowed to laugh at a funeral it doesn't change their ability to realize they are still at a funeral, it just allows them some levity in an otherwise crushing situation...
but there is no reason to argue with you, just like crime, some people want to look at the criminal and some at the reasons that the crime may have been committed...no one is right or wrong per se, I just happen to disagree here...
and for the record, I don't own an American flag, I don't drink budweiser or listen to country music, I don't hate or fear minorities...sometimes I feel it necessary to make people realize that not everyone is the stereotype they have in their mind of Americans...unfortunately for the open-minded here it sometimes seems a necessity
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Reading this thread I just don't know what to say...i am shocked ...
we just took out a nasty human being, successfully punishing this coward for his crimes...he affected so many more lives than just simply the people who died on 9/11...what about all the youth he brainwashed into extremism and martyring themselves...I am sick and tired of living in a world where criminals always have an excuse for their actions and it is the punishment they receive that is the bad thing...this guy chose to do what he did, we did not create him...people can take things anyway they want and they need to be prepared for the consequences of their reactions (as I am sure he was)...but the fact that this guy helped create a terror network that preys on young impressionable kids is disgusting and the world is a better place without him specifically...
and to those that brought it up, Being proud of your country achieving a goal is not jingoism...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
you did create him ... look who funded him in his early battles against the soviets ...
ultimately, it's not about lamenting his death ... it is about america's failure to recognize their role in death and suffering in this world ... you guys think your armies and spies are sent around the world spreading freedom and democracy when all they are are puppets to your multi-nationals ... that is what is truly sad ... how many people have died in iraq over a trumped-up war!?? ... where is the humility? ... where is the apology? ... where is the accountability?? ... there is none in the US ... because people continue to wear the colours of the flag in their hearts and minds without actually seeing what that really means ...
he chose to turn into what he did...the US did not force that hand...I don't think there are people in the streets hailing the missle strike that killed the grandchildren of Khadaffi, there aren't people in the streets burning children in effigy, there are a SMALL amount of people overly excited at the prospect of the figure head of the group that caused 9/11 being dispatched...I don't understand how you can make the leap to all the other things...people are allowed to laugh at a funeral it doesn't change their ability to realize they are still at a funeral, it just allows them some levity in an otherwise crushing situation...
but there is no reason to argue with you, just like crime, some people want to look at the criminal and some at the reasons that the crime may have been committed...no one is right or wrong per se, I just happen to disagree here...
and for the record, I don't own an American flag, I don't drink budweiser or listen to country music, I don't hate or fear minorities...sometimes I feel it necessary to make people realize that not everyone is the stereotype they have in their mind of Americans...unfortunately for the open-minded here it sometimes seems a necessity
Good points, Mike.
And seriously, country music is the worst.................and so is "The Great American Lager" owned by a Dutch company.
Comments
I wonder what the term is for an excessive bias in judging a different country's population in that all the citizens think they are superior to others?
someone i used to know used to joke that americans invented 2 things, patriotism, and size 4XL shorts. usa usa. lol...
all kidding aside though. bin laden has been gone just less than 48 hours, and the government has not said "THAT"S IT! we got all of them, everybody loves us again, hoorayyyy!"
unfortunately i don't think that is going to happen anytime soon though.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
I think this is a great post Futon.
They had a choice to take him out. I'd like to know from the people who don't think this is a big deal -- Should they have let him go? or should they have stopped pursuing him years ago? I honestly don't know.. was bin laden even able to stay active in al quada over the last few years? was he significant at this point in 2011? I don't know, but I feel the world is a better place without him.
and yeah afarid, OF COURSE terrorism still exists, and it always will. But does that mean we give up and let bin laden go? we have to fight it to some degree.
I believe a lot people do, I think they see it as beggining to some normalcie,I think a lot of those people we saw on t.v. felt so much anger and hurt for 10 years and now have a reason give up a little of that anger and make dealing with the pain a little easier,
all of us that did not live in NY or DC during that time could never understand the fear, sense of loss and anger
that those people experianced so to point a finger at them and tell them how wrong they are is just crazy talk.
Godfather.
The term would be the time period in where the superior people had access to more in their country than the people of the country they feel superior over and the agreement of give and take ... what do you think ?
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2000: Montreal, Toronto, Auburn Hills
2003: Cleveland, Buffalo, Toronto, Montreal
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2006: Toronto X2
2009: Toronto
2011: PJ20, Montreal, Toronto X2, Hamilton
2012: Manchester X2, Amsterdam X2, Prague, Berlin X2, Philadelphia, Missoula
2013: Pittsburg, Buffalo
2014: Milan, Trieste, Vienna, Berlin, Stockholm, Oslo, Detroit
2016: Ottawa, Toronto X2
2018: Padova, Rome, Prague, Krakow, Berlin, Barcelona
2023: Chicago X2
2024: New York X2
Second, did I miss all the ticker-tape parades and mass gatherings to celebrate the death of Bin Laden? Besides news reports in D.C., New York and a few ball games, did anyone posting on this board visually witness the nationwide celebration in the streets?
it never will, they line up and say help us then curse us for doing it...crazy.
Godfather.
Celebrating the end of a war or military campaign is a very different thing to revelling in vengeance.
I can understand emotions of relief or vindication in a sense of justice being served (though in my opinion justice is infinitely better served in a court of law than in a gunfight). What I can't understand or condone is glee in bloodlust and nationalistic triumphalism. It's ugly and demeaning.
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00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
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Huh, no term for that. perhaps...Polarism?
If that's your point of view, fair enough.
Like I've said, people of many different nationalities died on 9/11, in addition many other terrorist attacks have occured around the world since then too. For example the 7/7 bombings in London, which may have been on a smaller scale, but the sense of fear, loss and anger I would imagine is something very similar. I live just outside of London, I have many friends and family who work there. I'll be honest, ever since the bombings I've been completely paranoid about using the underground system, and the safety of those I care about, and I certainly don't feel any safer now that bin Laden is gone.
It just doesn't feel right to gloat to me. It feels like a time for reflection, and a time to show a little humility. Is it really right to cheer one man's death when so many innocent people are experiencing their 9/11 on the other side of the world right now? Sure it might not all be happening on one day like it did in the US, but that doesn't mean it isn't happening.
i have seen the facebook celebrations. does that count? it is pretty much the same thing, a bunch of uneducated dolts telling me to repost as my status something that is completly factually wrong.
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
we just took out a nasty human being, successfully punishing this coward for his crimes...he affected so many more lives than just simply the people who died on 9/11...what about all the youth he brainwashed into extremism and martyring themselves...I am sick and tired of living in a world where criminals always have an excuse for their actions and it is the punishment they receive that is the bad thing...this guy chose to do what he did, we did not create him...people can take things anyway they want and they need to be prepared for the consequences of their reactions (as I am sure he was)...but the fact that this guy helped create a terror network that preys on young impressionable kids is disgusting and the world is a better place without him specifically...
and to those that brought it up, Being proud of your country achieving a goal is not jingoism...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Whose done this?
you did create him ... look who funded him in his early battles against the soviets ...
ultimately, it's not about lamenting his death ... it is about america's failure to recognize their role in death and suffering in this world ... you guys think your armies and spies are sent around the world spreading freedom and democracy when all they are are puppets to your multi-nationals ... that is what is truly sad ... how many people have died in iraq over a trumped-up war!?? ... where is the humility? ... where is the apology? ... where is the accountability?? ... there is none in the US ... because people continue to wear the colours of the flag in their hearts and minds without actually seeing what that really means ...
http://www.reverbnation.com/brianzilm
This is my feeling on the matter too. Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains at the back of it all. There are no 'winners' in all this.
And what change might that be?
+1 :thumbup:
Godfather.
I think Mike makes a good point though.. bin laden was not a robot. He wasnt created by the US. He chose to fight the US because he didnt like the way the US was conducting operations. Yes, the US funded his cause (terrible, I know), but bin laden inherited like 80 mil, didnt he? would he have fought the soviets either way? probably. what that has to do with Iraq, I have no idea. the US govt is not perfect. Many people know Iraq was a huge mistake...
If you really wanted to compare the two...lets imagine if Bin laden had all the resources (militarily) that the US has. The western world would be erased from the map. Every single innocent man, woman, and child would be killed...nuked and erased from history if he had his choice.
but because of Iraq (and the huge mistake that it was), praising bin ladens fate is wrong? I personally don't think so. I am able to express concern that I feel Iraq was a huge mistake... I did everything I could - -voted against Bush, to get away from more mistakes like Iraq, but I would NEVER, say bin laden meeting his fate is not important in the grand scheme of things.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/02/g ... tml?hpt=T2
http://globalpublicsquare.blogs.cnn.com ... ad/?hpt=T1
both are good articles, thanks.
I head a discussion on the radio similar to the second link. I thought this was interesting:
"In the case of al Qaeda, this is a virtual organization held together by its message and the inspiration it provided. A large part of that inspiration was bin Laden. Ayman Zawahiri may have been the brains behind the outfit, but he did not excite people. When people volunteered for jihad, they were volunteering to be bin Laden’s foot soldiers, not Ayman Zawahiri’s or Khalid Sheikh Mohammed’s. The loss of bin Laden’s personality is hugely important because it was so much part of al Qaeda’s appeal."
I'm surprised that some people think that bin ladens death changes nothing. al quada will continue, but without bin ladens personality, ability to recruit, and also his wealth.
The bottom line is that this is a complicated issue, and there are people who are going to feel different ways about it. If you feel the need to judge or insult somebody for the way they feel about this, then that's really your problem not theirs. You might want to look at what it is about you that makes you feel the need to prove that you are smarter than somebody else, or rag on somebody for how they feel, or just act bitter.
"When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself."
a political climate that gave us things like the patriot act for starters...I realize that there is no winning with you Byrnzie so I know better than to start...;)
I don't think you are interested in my long answer anyway so I will simply say, if it is okay for people to blame the US for "creating" OBLs, than it is okay for people to blame OBL for creating an America that they may not recognize and leave it at that.
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
he chose to turn into what he did...the US did not force that hand...I don't think there are people in the streets hailing the missle strike that killed the grandchildren of Khadaffi, there aren't people in the streets burning children in effigy, there are a SMALL amount of people overly excited at the prospect of the figure head of the group that caused 9/11 being dispatched...I don't understand how you can make the leap to all the other things...people are allowed to laugh at a funeral it doesn't change their ability to realize they are still at a funeral, it just allows them some levity in an otherwise crushing situation...
but there is no reason to argue with you, just like crime, some people want to look at the criminal and some at the reasons that the crime may have been committed...no one is right or wrong per se, I just happen to disagree here...
and for the record, I don't own an American flag, I don't drink budweiser or listen to country music, I don't hate or fear minorities...sometimes I feel it necessary to make people realize that not everyone is the stereotype they have in their mind of Americans...unfortunately for the open-minded here it sometimes seems a necessity
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Good points, Mike.
And seriously, country music is the worst.................and so is "The Great American Lager" owned by a Dutch company.