Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?
this is a good post. i was just typing essentially what you just said. this is essentially what we did in iraq, deposed hussein and we are still there fighting now many years later? bin laden is gone, yet those he inspired are not giving up. celebrations are premature, especially when the fight goes on.
So if Hitler escaped and was found 10 years later in Argentina there would not have been a celebration around the world?
Second, did I miss all the ticker-tape parades and mass gatherings to celebrate the death of Bin Laden? Besides news reports in D.C., New York and a few ball games, did anyone posting on this board visually witness the nationwide celebration in the streets?
There were celebrations on college campuses nationwide, I know that much. ESPN's Scott Van Pelt was retweeting photos people were sending in to him from around the country, and Deadspin has a few photos on its site too. There was a decent-sized celebration on LSU's campus, though a few hours after it ended someone cut down and then burned the American flag flying over the war memorial.
And I listen for the voice inside my head... nothing. I'll do this one myself.
Some of these posts are very disheartening, and I'm reminded why I stopped posting here back in '03 and didn't even login to the forums for almost 8 years. I have a long list of things I could say about some of the people here, but since Judgmental would be at the top of the list I would be a complete hypocrite if I said what I really thought. But I will probably come across that way no matter what.
The bottom line is that this is a complicated issue, and there are people who are going to feel different ways about it. If you feel the need to judge or insult somebody for the way they feel about this, then that's really your problem not theirs. You might want to look at what it is about you that makes you feel the need to prove that you are smarter than somebody else, or rag on somebody for how they feel, or just act bitter.
"When you judge another, you do not define them, you define yourself."
he chose to turn into what he did...the US did not force that hand...I don't think there are people in the streets hailing the missle strike that killed the grandchildren of Khadaffi, there aren't people in the streets burning children in effigy, there are a SMALL amount of people overly excited at the prospect of the figure head of the group that caused 9/11 being dispatched...I don't understand how you can make the leap to all the other things...people are allowed to laugh at a funeral it doesn't change their ability to realize they are still at a funeral, it just allows them some levity in an otherwise crushing situation...
but there is no reason to argue with you, just like crime, some people want to look at the criminal and some at the reasons that the crime may have been committed...no one is right or wrong per se, I just happen to disagree here...
and for the record, I don't own an American flag, I don't drink budweiser or listen to country music, I don't hate or fear minorities...sometimes I feel it necessary to make people realize that not everyone is the stereotype they have in their mind of Americans...unfortunately for the open-minded here it sometimes seems a necessity
you guys are missing the point altogether ... it's not about the flag-waving or the U-S-A chants at stadiums ... yeah, that stuff gets old and i find it ironic that many people were sickened by the cheering in some parts of the world when the WTC came down yet do the exact same thing now that OBL is dead ... but that is secondary ...
it's about accepting the fact that of the unnecessary evil that exists in this world ... america contributes to it ... for the last 10 years OBL has been the symbol of evil in america ... do you guys recognize that the US flag is that same symbol to millions of people around the world!?? ... y'all brush it off as can't please everyone or we try our best but we can't make everyone happy ... that just continues to show how oblivious the american public is to the actions committed by your current and past gov'ts ...
you want to end evil and tyranny around the world ... start in your own backyard ...
he chose to turn into what he did...the US did not force that hand...I don't think there are people in the streets hailing the missle strike that killed the grandchildren of Khadaffi, there aren't people in the streets burning children in effigy, there are a SMALL amount of people overly excited at the prospect of the figure head of the group that caused 9/11 being dispatched...I don't understand how you can make the leap to all the other things...people are allowed to laugh at a funeral it doesn't change their ability to realize they are still at a funeral, it just allows them some levity in an otherwise crushing situation...
but there is no reason to argue with you, just like crime, some people want to look at the criminal and some at the reasons that the crime may have been committed...no one is right or wrong per se, I just happen to disagree here...
and for the record, I don't own an American flag, I don't drink budweiser or listen to country music, I don't hate or fear minorities...sometimes I feel it necessary to make people realize that not everyone is the stereotype they have in their mind of Americans...unfortunately for the open-minded here it sometimes seems a necessity
you guys are missing the point altogether ... it's not about the flag-waving or the U-S-A chants at stadiums ... yeah, that stuff gets old and i find it ironic that many people were sickened by the cheering in some parts of the world when the WTC came down yet do the exact same thing now that OBL is dead ... but that is secondary ...
it's about accepting the fact that of the unnecessary evil that exists in this world ... america contributes to it ... for the last 10 years OBL has been the symbol of evil in america ... do you guys recognize that the US flag is that same symbol to millions of people around the world!?? ... y'all brush it off as can't please everyone or we try our best but we can't make everyone happy ... that just continues to show how oblivious the american public is to the actions committed by your current and past gov'ts ...
you want to end evil and tyranny around the world ... start in your own backyard ...
I got your point, not agreeing with you does not mean I am too simple to grasp what you are saying...I disagree with your sweeping generalizations and stereotypes of Americans...can you not see how some people want to let out a little relief? I didn't do it, I went through yesterday reflecting on all that has happened since OBL declared war on the united states a few years before 9/11...and I can honestly say I am glad he is dead and hopefully this weakens the ability of those that would prey on the young and impressionable kids they get to commit suicide in the name of some twisted view on religion...that is what I am celebrating today...the hope of a better tomorrow for those kids without OBL....but whatever, we will get no where with this
that’s right! Can’t we all just get together and focus on our real enemies: monogamous gays and stem cells… - Ned Flanders
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Have we all forgotten that the cheering videos of Palestinians on 9/11 was pretty much propaganda, pushed by the media day after day to brainwash people.
The first clip aired on Fox first, picked up by other networks later on. Of course the famous video shows mostly kids cheering and a couple of adults. We really don't know what they are cheering or when the vid was really taken. But it was used daily in during the media Brainwashing for 9/11.
Funny part? When the 'news' anchor says that they are putting up 'V signs for victory'..In reality they were peace signs.
Have we all forgotten that the cheering videos of Palestinians on 9/11 was pretty much propaganda, pushed by the media day after day to brainwash people.
The first clip aired on Fox first, picked up by other networks later on. Of course the famous video shows mostly kids cheering and a couple of adults. We really don't know what they are cheering or when the vid was really taken. But it was used daily in during the media Brainwashing for 9/11.
Funny part? When the 'news' anchor says that they are putting up 'V signs for victory'..In reality they were peace signs.
you guys are missing the point altogether ... it's not about the flag-waving or the U-S-A chants at stadiums ... yeah, that stuff gets old and i find it ironic that many people were sickened by the cheering in some parts of the world when the WTC came down yet do the exact same thing now that OBL is dead ... but that is secondary ...
it's about accepting the fact that of the unnecessary evil that exists in this world ... america contributes to it ... for the last 10 years OBL has been the symbol of evil in america ... do you guys recognize that the US flag is that same symbol to millions of people around the world!?? ... y'all brush it off as can't please everyone or we try our best but we can't make everyone happy ... that just continues to show how oblivious the american public is to the actions committed by your current and past gov'ts ...
you want to end evil and tyranny around the world ... start in your own backyard ...
polaris X, I see a lot of what you're saying. But the thing is we hear people gripe about us every day for every little thing that we have to be oblivious to it. I personally come from the first generation of my family to be born in the U.S., my family coming from Canada and living there as far as we can track, where they immigrated to Canada from I don't know. But I still have a lot of relatives up there, and I try to stay close. But it is hard when all they want to talk about is how evil America is. It's like a broken record, and I don't really know what they want, if the endgame is for me to burn an American flag and tell them they're right or what.
The last time I was in Toronto, out of nowhere I start getting bombarded by 3 of my cousins and one of their friends telling me how evil the U.S. was for putting Japanese Americans into internment camps during WWII. When I informed them of the fact that Canada also had internment camps for Japanese citizens, confiscated their property, auctioned it off on the cheap, etc. They didn't believe me. All of them had been taught in school about the evil Americans mistreating the Japanese, but had not been told that the same thing happened in Canada. The point being that we aren't the only country who makes mistakes, but people would rather focus on ours than their own, or it's more fun to hate us. These are 4 different people who went to 3 different schools and later the same university, who had been taught how evil America was for doing something, and never been told that Canada did the same thing. I think that's very telling. And I don't see how even if Canada didn't have internment camps and the U.S. did, what exactly was constructive about the conversation. I think the only way they wanted it to end was for me to say "Yes the US sucks, we're evil, I'm sorry, I'll drink a Molson now".
The fact of the matter is that world politics isn't black and white, and it is complicated. We have made some bad choices. If people want to focus on that, well that is their choice. It's not constructive. We can sit around and complain about how a President who is no longer alive helped the Afghani people fight the Russians, helping to create bin Laden, and that same man later came back to bite us. And to be honest, there were a lot of different factors that contributed to bin Laden turning on the West, and would most likely have been a terrorist whether or not many of the events that happened in Afghanistan happened anyway. He was always looking for a fight, and hated the West since his college days, before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
Reading this thread I just don't know what to say...i am shocked ...
we just took out a nasty human being, successfully punishing this coward for his crimes...he affected so many more lives than just simply the people who died on 9/11...what about all the youth he brainwashed into extremism and martyring themselves...I am sick and tired of living in a world where criminals always have an excuse for their actions and it is the punishment they receive that is the bad thing...this guy chose to do what he did, we did not create him...people can take things anyway they want and they need to be prepared for the consequences of their reactions (as I am sure he was)...but the fact that this guy helped create a terror network that preys on young impressionable kids is disgusting and the world is a better place without him specifically...
and to those that brought it up, Being proud of your country achieving a goal is not jingoism...who are you to say that celebrating the death of the man ultimately responsible for a complete change in our country is an extreme form of patriotism?
you did create him ... look who funded him in his early battles against the soviets ...
ultimately, it's not about lamenting his death ... it is about america's failure to recognize their role in death and suffering in this world ... you guys think your armies and spies are sent around the world spreading freedom and democracy when all they are are puppets to your multi-nationals ... that is what is truly sad ... how many people have died in iraq over a trumped-up war!?? ... where is the humility? ... where is the apology? ... where is the accountability?? ... there is none in the US ... because people continue to wear the colours of the flag in their hearts and minds without actually seeing what that really means ...
polaris X, I see a lot of what you're saying. But the thing is we hear people gripe about us every day for every little thing that we have to be oblivious to it. I personally come from the first generation of my family to be born in the U.S., my family coming from Canada and living there as far as we can track, where they immigrated to Canada from I don't know. But I still have a lot of relatives up there, and I try to stay close. But it is hard when all they want to talk about is how evil America is. It's like a broken record, and I don't really know what they want, if the endgame is for me to burn an American flag and tell them they're right or what.
The last time I was in Toronto, out of nowhere I start getting bombarded by 3 of my cousins and one of their friends telling me how evil the U.S. was for putting Japanese Americans into internment camps during WWII. When I informed them of the fact that Canada also had internment camps for Japanese citizens, confiscated their property, auctioned it off on the cheap, etc. They didn't believe me. All of them had been taught in school about the evil Americans mistreating the Japanese, but had not been told that the same thing happened in Canada. The point being that we aren't the only country who makes mistakes, but people would rather focus on ours than their own, or it's more fun to hate us. These are 4 different people who went to 3 different schools and later the same university, who had been taught how evil America was for doing something, and never been told that Canada did the same thing. I think that's very telling. And I don't see how even if Canada didn't have internment camps and the U.S. did, what exactly was constructive about the conversation. I think the only way they wanted it to end was for me to say "Yes the US sucks, we're evil, I'm sorry, I'll drink a Molson now".
The fact of the matter is that world politics isn't black and white, and it is complicated. We have made some bad choices. If people want to focus on that, well that is their choice. It's not constructive. We can sit around and complain about how a President who is no longer alive helped the Afghani people fight the Russians, helping to create bin Laden, and that same man later came back to bite us. And to be honest, there were a lot of different factors that contributed to bin Laden turning on the West, and would most likely have been a terrorist whether or not many of the events that happened in Afghanistan happened anyway. He was always looking for a fight, and hated the West since his college days, before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
honestly ... i'm not sure you do ... i've said it a lot on this board ... what makes america great also is it's greatest weakness ... the patriotism and sense of nationalism exhibited by most americans is what gives the people its strength but often that precludes them from giving a long hard look at themselves ... yeah, a lot of countries do a lot of bad things ... does that make it ok? ... i think for the most part americans don't like feeling guilty ... they don't like hearing bad things about themselves ... i am more than happy to condemn canadian actions (and i do all the time) ... but the reality is that if you look at your long sordid history - it is directly related to what is going on all around the world as it relates to terrorism ...
i get it - you guys are tired of being shat on and you've tuned everyone out ... all i'm saying is that as you rejoice the death of OBL to not forget your role in oppression and suffering in this world ... because it is significant ...
Ownership. I think that's what people want from the American people. Acknowledgement of our role in things. Accountability. And, while I know that none of us as individuals did the things for which our country is being criticized, we are a democracy and we're the ones who vote these "leaders" in to office and accept the decisions they make. When the American people - and media - become vocal in our opposition to our government's contribution to terrorism in the world, then the world will be able to see that we, as individuals, don't support these acts. But as long as we fail to ackowledge the valid points that other raise, as long as we only argue against them and refuse to see things from another perspective, we won't make our country better and they won't stop telling us we need to. And I don't think they should.
As I can tell, read, hear and see, our society seems to have misplaced it's notion of "justice" with "vengeance". Albeit killing Osama rids the world of one less nut, it doesn't bring... anyone else back. Also something to keep in mind, in the past decades of chasing this person, we've caused countless numbers of deaths, injuries and devastation. Doesn't seem like "justice"or any of the other high moral ground terms we love to claim has any place in our intentions or our actions and sadly, it doesn't seem like we care.
Also, we are not in a "war". We're not ending terrorism in the world. We were attacked by a fringe group on several occasions and finally got hit bad enough to address it. Our response was not solely aimed at the group but then involved ...the government of Afghanistan (Taliban), who previously we didn't mind all of their abuses until they wouldn't hand over Osama. Secondly, half way in (not completing this first and main task), we decided to go to war in Iraq (nothing to do with terrorism or 9-11). So in sum, we carried out 2 wars, 1 which had/has nothing to do with terrorism, and the other which pretty much seized from being about terrorism in our hunt for Al Qaida. We've opened up prisons in which no justice has been served. We've killed thousands of innocents which have nothing to do with the terrorist groups or Taliban or Saddam. We've further escalated the cause of Osama and Al Qaida as well. But in all of this, we've ignored tons of other terrorist organizations solely because our aim is not end terrorism nor are we at war with terrorism. So when people say things like we didn't ask for this or it was brought to us ,.. firstly no one does, secondly, the other half in the arab world could put a laundry list of items we've been responsible for on their end. It obviously doesn't warrant us "asking" for 9-11, but if anyone is going to claim innocence in the matter, it is a false assumption as well. Our government has a long history or involvement in the Middle East and most of it was backing of tyrants, despots and human rights abuses for our benefits. Hell, we even helped create and organize Al Qaida for our own benefit (to fight the Russians). My point is you can't simply say it's all on everyone else and our reactions and responses should be accepted as such, just as I'm sure if you asked the thousands impacted by our military actions, they wouldn't look upon us lightly either. At what point does it just become a ping pong match in which it's tit for tat with no real end in site? This is what we see in the Middle East as a whole and the longer we participate (whether just or unjust), the longer it creates resentment, anger, chaos and wars...certainly not peace and justice.
"The rich and powerful have every right to demand that they be left in peace to enjoy what they have gained, often by violence and terror; the rest can be ignored as long as they suffer in silence, but if they interfere with the lives of those who rule the world by right, the 'terrors of the earth' will be visited upon them with righteous wrath, unless power is constrained from within." - Winston Churchill
In Noam Chomsky's book, "Pirates and Emperors, International Terrorism in the Real World", he tells this story, attributed to St. Augustine. A captured pirate was brought before Alexander the Great. "How dare you molest the sea?, said Alexander. How dare you molest the whole world?" replied the pirate and continued: "Because I do it with a little ship only I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy are called emperor."
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
honestly ... i'm not sure you do ... i've said it a lot on this board ... what makes america great also is it's greatest weakness ... the patriotism and sense of nationalism exhibited by most americans is what gives the people its strength but often that precludes them from giving a long hard look at themselves ... yeah, a lot of countries do a lot of bad things ... does that make it ok? ... i think for the most part americans don't like feeling guilty ... they don't like hearing bad things about themselves ... i am more than happy to condemn canadian actions (and i do all the time) ... but the reality is that if you look at your long sordid history - it is directly related to what is going on all around the world as it relates to terrorism ...
i get it - you guys are tired of being shat on and you've tuned everyone out ... all i'm saying is that as you rejoice the death of OBL to not forget your role in oppression and suffering in this world ... because it is significant ...
But everything you say is a generalization. "Most Americans" do this, or feel like that, or don't like this. If anything that's an opinion or your own personal experience with people you have met. You can't speak for all, or most Americans, or how they think, or feel.
And your argument on how America "created bin Laden" is pretty generic too. It's not a black and white issue, and really what you believe depends on what you want to believe. There are many different accounts of how the war between Afghanistan and the Soviets went down, and clearly you have taken the ones that make the U.S. look the worst as the truth. The U.S. claims that it never associated with the foreign fighter like bin Laden (who basically just came there looking for a fight as he would have continued to do anyway) and bin Laden himself downplayed U.S. involvement, maybe to take more credit for himself, but if you hear him tell it all we did was meddle a little bit and then pretend like we really did a lot. So what you choose to believe is just that, what you CHOOSE to believe, and you clearly choose to hate the U.S. And I don't blame you, yeah, we've made mistakes. I say WE, but in reality the general public didn't make these decisions, so I'm not sure what you want us Americans on the Pearl Jam message boards to say about it, other than Whoops. Sure it is documented that we meddled in Afghanistan, but to say that the meddling led directly to 9/11 is a huge leap.
I didn't say that just because other countries do bad things that it makes what we do OK. It's just that nobody cares to point out what other countries do too much. Because they aren't the country people love to hate. It's not fun to rag on other countries like it is us. All I'm saying is that while the whole world is concerned with us taking a long hard look at ourselves, there are things they should be looking at too. And maybe I'm guilty of making generalizations myself. I know there are plenty of people in the world who don't care about the U.S. and are more concerned with what is going on in their neck of the woods, and the reason it seems the way I see it is because the ones we hear from are the minority who are more concerned with us than their own.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
polaris X, I see a lot of what you're saying. But the thing is we hear people gripe about us every day for every little thing that we have to be oblivious to it. I personally come from the first generation of my family to be born in the U.S., my family coming from Canada and living there as far as we can track, where they immigrated to Canada from I don't know. But I still have a lot of relatives up there, and I try to stay close. But it is hard when all they want to talk about is how evil America is. It's like a broken record, and I don't really know what they want, if the endgame is for me to burn an American flag and tell them they're right or what.
The last time I was in Toronto, out of nowhere I start getting bombarded by 3 of my cousins and one of their friends telling me how evil the U.S. was for putting Japanese Americans into internment camps during WWII. When I informed them of the fact that Canada also had internment camps for Japanese citizens, confiscated their property, auctioned it off on the cheap, etc. They didn't believe me. All of them had been taught in school about the evil Americans mistreating the Japanese, but had not been told that the same thing happened in Canada. The point being that we aren't the only country who makes mistakes, but people would rather focus on ours than their own, or it's more fun to hate us. These are 4 different people who went to 3 different schools and later the same university, who had been taught how evil America was for doing something, and never been told that Canada did the same thing. I think that's very telling. And I don't see how even if Canada didn't have internment camps and the U.S. did, what exactly was constructive about the conversation. I think the only way they wanted it to end was for me to say "Yes the US sucks, we're evil, I'm sorry, I'll drink a Molson now".
The fact of the matter is that world politics isn't black and white, and it is complicated. We have made some bad choices. If people want to focus on that, well that is their choice. It's not constructive. We can sit around and complain about how a President who is no longer alive helped the Afghani people fight the Russians, helping to create bin Laden, and that same man later came back to bite us. And to be honest, there were a lot of different factors that contributed to bin Laden turning on the West, and would most likely have been a terrorist whether or not many of the events that happened in Afghanistan happened anyway. He was always looking for a fight, and hated the West since his college days, before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
honestly ... i'm not sure you do ... i've said it a lot on this board ... what makes america great also is it's greatest weakness ... the patriotism and sense of nationalism exhibited by most americans is what gives the people its strength but often that precludes them from giving a long hard look at themselves ... yeah, a lot of countries do a lot of bad things ... does that make it ok? ... i think for the most part americans don't like feeling guilty ... they don't like hearing bad things about themselves ... i am more than happy to condemn canadian actions (and i do all the time) ... but the reality is that if you look at your long sordid history - it is directly related to what is going on all around the world as it relates to terrorism ...
i get it - you guys are tired of being shat on and you've tuned everyone out ... all i'm saying is that as you rejoice the death of OBL to not forget your role in oppression and suffering in this world ... because it is significant ...
I agree with you on most things here. But there is only so much someone like myself or MikeP can do to fix that problem. We have identified that fact that our govt does some shitty things...I hate what the US did in Iraq. but bin laden is a fucking monster and like I said before, if he had the resources, he's wipe the western hemisphere off the map. I'm ecstatic that bin laden is gone but that doesn't mean me and many other Americans aren't less distressed about other US fuck-ups.
Of course, there are some Americans that think we've never done any wrong, but at least their objective isnt to kill over 3,000 innocent people in one day.
You just gotta love the whole media / White House circus over the Osama Bin Laden announcements. Remember when we were told we had to go after these dangerous terrorists so we could be safer? Remember when we were told that the terror alerts had to be put on orange and red because Bin Laden was "living in a cave" and plotting to bomb us?
Well now that the White House insists they've killed Bin Laden, where's the celebration of freedom and safety? Why aren't we firing the TSA and reversing the Patriot Act? Isn't the danger now over? Can we bring bottled water back on airplanes again?
Instead, the government now says that killing Osama Bin Laden makes America MORE dangerous because his cohorts might seek "revenge."
Huh? Wait a sec... so killing Bin Laden makes America less safe? Wasn't the entire sales job on this supposed to be that killing Bin Laden would make us more safe?
Check out the logic here: George W. Bush said if we don't kill Bin Laden, we won't be safe. Obama says now that we DID kill Bin Laden, things are even less safe. So apparently, according to the U.S. government, killing them or not killing produces exactly the same result. We're all in danger, they insist, no matter who they kill.
Do you see the total perpetual war con job America has been sold over the years, spanning multiple presidents? There are no conditions under which we can go back to being "safe and secure," you see. There is no list of outlaws that can be taken out so that the government announces "There, now we're safe. All the bad guys are gone." Nope, instead we get this perpetual war setup that keeps the munitions manufacturers rolling in dough while our soldiers keep coming home in body bags. It is a complete con job, and it's all being used to strip away our constitutional rights and freedoms, too. http://www.naturalnews.com/032258_econo ... _2012.html
I knew all the rules, but the rules did not know me...GUARANTEED!
Earlier, we were told that if they could have captured bin Laden rather than kill him, they would have.
Now they tell us he was unarmed.
That's a pretty disturbing revelation, if you ask me.
93: Slane
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
If anyone really believes that terrorism is over because Osama Bin Laden is dead then please note me because I really need some good laugh...
all Greeks believe the same,,i try to tell it 2 days now..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
leave it to the good folks on the train to make the US the bad guy here...freakin amazing :yawn:
anybody need a little cheese with that whine.
Godfather.
CONservative governMENt
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
If anyone really believes that terrorism is over because Osama Bin Laden is dead then please note me because I really need some good laugh...
You can read through 34 pages and see that it hasnt been said yet, and I doubt it ever will.
Yahamita, the media circus is an immediate reaction. And I honestly dont think the govt would've went after him had they thought the final result would be long term declines in safety. I believe they are saying that immediate retaliation is possible. Do you not think that al qaeda is weaker without bin laden?
Comments
There were celebrations on college campuses nationwide, I know that much. ESPN's Scott Van Pelt was retweeting photos people were sending in to him from around the country, and Deadspin has a few photos on its site too. There was a decent-sized celebration on LSU's campus, though a few hours after it ended someone cut down and then burned the American flag flying over the war memorial.
you guys are missing the point altogether ... it's not about the flag-waving or the U-S-A chants at stadiums ... yeah, that stuff gets old and i find it ironic that many people were sickened by the cheering in some parts of the world when the WTC came down yet do the exact same thing now that OBL is dead ... but that is secondary ...
it's about accepting the fact that of the unnecessary evil that exists in this world ... america contributes to it ... for the last 10 years OBL has been the symbol of evil in america ... do you guys recognize that the US flag is that same symbol to millions of people around the world!?? ... y'all brush it off as can't please everyone or we try our best but we can't make everyone happy ... that just continues to show how oblivious the american public is to the actions committed by your current and past gov'ts ...
you want to end evil and tyranny around the world ... start in your own backyard ...
I got your point, not agreeing with you does not mean I am too simple to grasp what you are saying...I disagree with your sweeping generalizations and stereotypes of Americans...can you not see how some people want to let out a little relief? I didn't do it, I went through yesterday reflecting on all that has happened since OBL declared war on the united states a few years before 9/11...and I can honestly say I am glad he is dead and hopefully this weakens the ability of those that would prey on the young and impressionable kids they get to commit suicide in the name of some twisted view on religion...that is what I am celebrating today...the hope of a better tomorrow for those kids without OBL....but whatever, we will get no where with this
It is terrifying when you are too stupid to know who is dumb
- Joe Rogan
Oh yea, now the terrorists are going to want to harm us...
The first clip aired on Fox first, picked up by other networks later on. Of course the famous video shows mostly kids cheering and a couple of adults. We really don't know what they are cheering or when the vid was really taken. But it was used daily in during the media Brainwashing for 9/11.
Funny part? When the 'news' anchor says that they are putting up 'V signs for victory'..In reality they were peace signs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k
Also the ones who were dancing on 9/11 were Israeli Spys.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICL ... aelis.html
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/spyring.php
http://www.democracynow.org/2007/2/8/ch ... dent_spies
(But what do we care about the truth anyway?)
pure speculation Abe, but no biggie I think we can all use a break.
http://video.foxnews.com/v/4673124/-wom ... ampionship
Godfather.
polaris X, I see a lot of what you're saying. But the thing is we hear people gripe about us every day for every little thing that we have to be oblivious to it. I personally come from the first generation of my family to be born in the U.S., my family coming from Canada and living there as far as we can track, where they immigrated to Canada from I don't know. But I still have a lot of relatives up there, and I try to stay close. But it is hard when all they want to talk about is how evil America is. It's like a broken record, and I don't really know what they want, if the endgame is for me to burn an American flag and tell them they're right or what.
The last time I was in Toronto, out of nowhere I start getting bombarded by 3 of my cousins and one of their friends telling me how evil the U.S. was for putting Japanese Americans into internment camps during WWII. When I informed them of the fact that Canada also had internment camps for Japanese citizens, confiscated their property, auctioned it off on the cheap, etc. They didn't believe me. All of them had been taught in school about the evil Americans mistreating the Japanese, but had not been told that the same thing happened in Canada. The point being that we aren't the only country who makes mistakes, but people would rather focus on ours than their own, or it's more fun to hate us. These are 4 different people who went to 3 different schools and later the same university, who had been taught how evil America was for doing something, and never been told that Canada did the same thing. I think that's very telling. And I don't see how even if Canada didn't have internment camps and the U.S. did, what exactly was constructive about the conversation. I think the only way they wanted it to end was for me to say "Yes the US sucks, we're evil, I'm sorry, I'll drink a Molson now".
The fact of the matter is that world politics isn't black and white, and it is complicated. We have made some bad choices. If people want to focus on that, well that is their choice. It's not constructive. We can sit around and complain about how a President who is no longer alive helped the Afghani people fight the Russians, helping to create bin Laden, and that same man later came back to bite us. And to be honest, there were a lot of different factors that contributed to bin Laden turning on the West, and would most likely have been a terrorist whether or not many of the events that happened in Afghanistan happened anyway. He was always looking for a fight, and hated the West since his college days, before the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan.
Wonderfully stated Polaris!!
honestly ... i'm not sure you do ... i've said it a lot on this board ... what makes america great also is it's greatest weakness ... the patriotism and sense of nationalism exhibited by most americans is what gives the people its strength but often that precludes them from giving a long hard look at themselves ... yeah, a lot of countries do a lot of bad things ... does that make it ok? ... i think for the most part americans don't like feeling guilty ... they don't like hearing bad things about themselves ... i am more than happy to condemn canadian actions (and i do all the time) ... but the reality is that if you look at your long sordid history - it is directly related to what is going on all around the world as it relates to terrorism ...
i get it - you guys are tired of being shat on and you've tuned everyone out ... all i'm saying is that as you rejoice the death of OBL to not forget your role in oppression and suffering in this world ... because it is significant ...
uhhh ... your backyard would be on your property ... canada is not in your territory/property ...
Certinly give ya a lot to think about.
Also, we are not in a "war". We're not ending terrorism in the world. We were attacked by a fringe group on several occasions and finally got hit bad enough to address it. Our response was not solely aimed at the group but then involved ...the government of Afghanistan (Taliban), who previously we didn't mind all of their abuses until they wouldn't hand over Osama. Secondly, half way in (not completing this first and main task), we decided to go to war in Iraq (nothing to do with terrorism or 9-11). So in sum, we carried out 2 wars, 1 which had/has nothing to do with terrorism, and the other which pretty much seized from being about terrorism in our hunt for Al Qaida. We've opened up prisons in which no justice has been served. We've killed thousands of innocents which have nothing to do with the terrorist groups or Taliban or Saddam. We've further escalated the cause of Osama and Al Qaida as well. But in all of this, we've ignored tons of other terrorist organizations solely because our aim is not end terrorism nor are we at war with terrorism. So when people say things like we didn't ask for this or it was brought to us ,.. firstly no one does, secondly, the other half in the arab world could put a laundry list of items we've been responsible for on their end. It obviously doesn't warrant us "asking" for 9-11, but if anyone is going to claim innocence in the matter, it is a false assumption as well. Our government has a long history or involvement in the Middle East and most of it was backing of tyrants, despots and human rights abuses for our benefits. Hell, we even helped create and organize Al Qaida for our own benefit (to fight the Russians). My point is you can't simply say it's all on everyone else and our reactions and responses should be accepted as such, just as I'm sure if you asked the thousands impacted by our military actions, they wouldn't look upon us lightly either. At what point does it just become a ping pong match in which it's tit for tat with no real end in site? This is what we see in the Middle East as a whole and the longer we participate (whether just or unjust), the longer it creates resentment, anger, chaos and wars...certainly not peace and justice.
"The rich and powerful have every right to demand that they be left in peace to enjoy what they have gained, often by violence and terror; the rest can be ignored as long as they suffer in silence, but if they interfere with the lives of those who rule the world by right, the 'terrors of the earth' will be visited upon them with righteous wrath, unless power is constrained from within." - Winston Churchill
In Noam Chomsky's book, "Pirates and Emperors, International Terrorism in the Real World", he tells this story, attributed to St. Augustine. A captured pirate was brought before Alexander the Great. "How dare you molest the sea?, said Alexander. How dare you molest the whole world?" replied the pirate and continued: "Because I do it with a little ship only I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy are called emperor."
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
But everything you say is a generalization. "Most Americans" do this, or feel like that, or don't like this. If anything that's an opinion or your own personal experience with people you have met. You can't speak for all, or most Americans, or how they think, or feel.
And your argument on how America "created bin Laden" is pretty generic too. It's not a black and white issue, and really what you believe depends on what you want to believe. There are many different accounts of how the war between Afghanistan and the Soviets went down, and clearly you have taken the ones that make the U.S. look the worst as the truth. The U.S. claims that it never associated with the foreign fighter like bin Laden (who basically just came there looking for a fight as he would have continued to do anyway) and bin Laden himself downplayed U.S. involvement, maybe to take more credit for himself, but if you hear him tell it all we did was meddle a little bit and then pretend like we really did a lot. So what you choose to believe is just that, what you CHOOSE to believe, and you clearly choose to hate the U.S. And I don't blame you, yeah, we've made mistakes. I say WE, but in reality the general public didn't make these decisions, so I'm not sure what you want us Americans on the Pearl Jam message boards to say about it, other than Whoops. Sure it is documented that we meddled in Afghanistan, but to say that the meddling led directly to 9/11 is a huge leap.
I didn't say that just because other countries do bad things that it makes what we do OK. It's just that nobody cares to point out what other countries do too much. Because they aren't the country people love to hate. It's not fun to rag on other countries like it is us. All I'm saying is that while the whole world is concerned with us taking a long hard look at ourselves, there are things they should be looking at too. And maybe I'm guilty of making generalizations myself. I know there are plenty of people in the world who don't care about the U.S. and are more concerned with what is going on in their neck of the woods, and the reason it seems the way I see it is because the ones we hear from are the minority who are more concerned with us than their own.
I agree with you on most things here. But there is only so much someone like myself or MikeP can do to fix that problem. We have identified that fact that our govt does some shitty things...I hate what the US did in Iraq. but bin laden is a fucking monster and like I said before, if he had the resources, he's wipe the western hemisphere off the map. I'm ecstatic that bin laden is gone but that doesn't mean me and many other Americans aren't less distressed about other US fuck-ups.
Of course, there are some Americans that think we've never done any wrong, but at least their objective isnt to kill over 3,000 innocent people in one day.
+1, some very valid stuff in there.
Well now that the White House insists they've killed Bin Laden, where's the celebration of freedom and safety? Why aren't we firing the TSA and reversing the Patriot Act? Isn't the danger now over? Can we bring bottled water back on airplanes again?
Instead, the government now says that killing Osama Bin Laden makes America MORE dangerous because his cohorts might seek "revenge."
Huh? Wait a sec... so killing Bin Laden makes America less safe? Wasn't the entire sales job on this supposed to be that killing Bin Laden would make us more safe?
Check out the logic here: George W. Bush said if we don't kill Bin Laden, we won't be safe. Obama says now that we DID kill Bin Laden, things are even less safe. So apparently, according to the U.S. government, killing them or not killing produces exactly the same result. We're all in danger, they insist, no matter who they kill.
Do you see the total perpetual war con job America has been sold over the years, spanning multiple presidents? There are no conditions under which we can go back to being "safe and secure," you see. There is no list of outlaws that can be taken out so that the government announces "There, now we're safe. All the bad guys are gone." Nope, instead we get this perpetual war setup that keeps the munitions manufacturers rolling in dough while our soldiers keep coming home in body bags. It is a complete con job, and it's all being used to strip away our constitutional rights and freedoms, too.
http://www.naturalnews.com/032258_econo ... _2012.html
Hail Hail HIPPIEMOM
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'Al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden was unarmed when he was killed by US troops on Sunday after resisting capture, the White House has said.'
Now they tell us he was unarmed.
That's a pretty disturbing revelation, if you ask me.
96: Cork, Dublin
00: Dublin
06: London, Dublin
07: London, Copenhagen, Nijmegen
09: Manchester, London
10: Dublin, Belfast, London & Berlin
11: San José
12: Isle of Wight, Copenhagen, Ed in Manchester & London x2
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
anybody need a little cheese with that whine.
Godfather.
Our government is the potent, the omnipresent teacher. For good or for ill, it teaches the whole people by its example. Crime is contagious. If the government becomes a law-breaker, it breeds contempt for law; it invites every man to become a law unto himself; it invites anarchy. - Louis Brandeis
You can resist without being armed. I think I just read that somewhere, I'll try and dig it up.
Edit:
Bin Laden was unarmed when he was shot by US special forces, Jay Carney, a White House spokesman, has told a press briefing.
"Resistance does not require a firearm," said Carney.
You can read through 34 pages and see that it hasnt been said yet, and I doubt it ever will.
Yahamita, the media circus is an immediate reaction. And I honestly dont think the govt would've went after him had they thought the final result would be long term declines in safety. I believe they are saying that immediate retaliation is possible. Do you not think that al qaeda is weaker without bin laden?