These kill innocent people more indiscriminately than are soldiers.
I don't argue with your premise that the war effort is doing more harm than good. I'm all for pulling our troops home all over the world. But to suggest that Bush and Obama are the more evil ones is ludicrous.
An estimated 1 million civilians were killed in Iraq. The majority of these deaths were as a direct result of coalition aerial bombardments.
How many lives does our gov't save by donating billions around the world?
I doubt the number excuses all the lives snuffed out as a result of wars, the arms trade, and the West's destructive economic policies towards the third world.
Where do you get these numbers? I've seen all sorts of estimates and this is on the high end. And most died from a gunshot wound (Opinion Research Board). You can say 1 million and I can use the Iraq Body count of 110,000. Regardless, we should not have been there in the first place.
My point is that Bush and Obama are not the evil ones here. I don't think they want to kill civilians. But Osama would have no problem wiping out as many innocent Americans/westerners as possible. That is why he's the a-hole. Again, I'm not agreeing with our war/foreign policy. Its been a mess since WW2. But to suggest Bush and Obama are the cause for more death/evil than Osama is just dumb.
Also, I dont' mean to suggest that just because we save lives it gives us the right to take them as we please. I was just trying to show that our gov't does do some humanitarian good.
Thank goodness somebody logs in every 5 minutes to tell us stupid Americans that there is still going to be terrorism now that bin Laden is dead. One thing that some of you people should think about is what causes all your hostility towards Americans, and makes you feel like YOU and YOU alone need to tell us what we already know. I think a lot of these posts are more telling about the chips some individuals around here have on their shoulders, as valid as some of your points may be.
And let me ask you something, let's say there are some Americans who think that the world will now be a rosier place that bin Laden is dead, why is it up to you to take the piss out of them? A lot of these posts really have nothing to do with whether or not going after bin Laden was right or wrong, or anything like that, it's just seems like you're trying to make sure that Americans don't feel any sense of victory over it.
unfortunately, it's not just YOUR victory, nor is it just YOUR danger. It's all of us, friend. and the reason people are making the point that this is not the end of terrorism, is because american politicians (and citizens) can sometimes put the cart before the horse, and claim mission accomplished when it has no business being claimed. the white house scene last night looked as if the war had been declared over. I'm actually impressed that most of the influential politicians are making sure to say "it's not over". It's some asses in the media that are speculating the end of the war.
he was no hitler whose ideology got defeated along with him. he was dangerous. and now he's exponentially more dangerous now that he will be cast as a deity.
we're speaking as friends, as neighbors, just to say "hey good for you, but don't let your guard down".
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
-MLK
:roll: :thumbdown:
how can you POSSIBLY give an "eyeroll", "sick" and "thumbsdown" to this???? WTF???
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
what did we win? if the objective was to kill bin laden then we accomplished that. but if the "war on terror" is truely being fought to eliminate terrorism, which is a tactic, by the way, then we have a long way to go...
when the unibomber was arrested nobody claimed it as a "victory"...
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
-MLK
:roll: :thumbdown:
how can you POSSIBLY give an "eyeroll", "sick" and "thumbsdown" to this???? WTF???
i was thinking the same thing. but people have their own reasons for posting what they post. i just prefer not to ask
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Thank goodness somebody logs in every 5 minutes to tell us stupid Americans that there is still going to be terrorism now that bin Laden is dead. One thing that some of you people should think about is what causes all your hostility towards Americans, and makes you feel like YOU and YOU alone need to tell us what we already know. I think a lot of these posts are more telling about the chips some individuals around here have on their shoulders, as valid as some of your points may be.
And let me ask you something, let's say there are some Americans who think that the world will now be a rosier place that bin Laden is dead, why is it up to you to take the piss out of them? A lot of these posts really have nothing to do with whether or not going after bin Laden was right or wrong, or anything like that, it's just seems like you're trying to make sure that Americans don't feel any sense of victory over it.
unfortunately, it's not just YOUR victory, nor is it just YOUR danger. It's all of us, friend. and the reason people are making the point that this is not the end of terrorism, is because american politicians (and citizens) can sometimes put the cart before the horse, and claim mission accomplished when it has no business being claimed. the white house scene last night looked as if the war had been declared over. I'm actually impressed that most of the influential politicians are making sure to say "it's not over". It's some asses in the media that are speculating the end of the war.
he was no hitler whose ideology got defeated along with him. he was dangerous. and now he's exponentially more dangerous now that he will be cast as a deity.
we're speaking as friends, as neighbors, just to say "hey good for you, but don't let your guard down".
Well some of the posts haven't been friendly, I wasn't referring to stuff like you are talking about that Paul. I'm talking about the ones saying that the stupid Americans living in their bubble need to realize that nothing is over, etc. Personally I didn't hear anybody in the media saying it was over, because the fact that there may be reprisals and the fearmongering that the media loves so much was too good to pass up. I didn't see 2 minutes go by on any story talking about bin Laden that didn't make it abundantly clear that they are going to want revenge.
And my point is this is just an internet message board, the world isn't going to end if somebody on here feels some sort of victory over this. After all this is a complicated issue, and people have complicated feelings about it. There is no one right or wrong way they should be feeling. And I'm just saying, if somebody does feel like "hey we won something", it's not anybody's job to take that away, or change their mind. I wasn't saying it is a victory, but I'm saying that if somebody feels that way, it's valid.
Any victory, when you think about it can be made insignificant. Let's say somebody's country wins the World Cup or a gold medal or something, and they feel good about that, then I come along and say, yeah well you're president/prime minister/whatever is a dickhead, your economy is in the gutter, you have homeless people and etc, so your victory means nothing. Isn't that kind of douchy of me to do? If somebody feels like stopping bin Laden is a good thing (that's their opinion, sense of victory) I don't feel the need to take the piss out of them.
Or on something more topical, let's say they announce PJ20 tomorrow and it sounds amazing, and people are excited. Then I swoop in and criticize people for caring about a rock concert when there are wars, natural disasters, starvation, etc in the world, and all you can think about is a rock concert. That would be lame.
Those are just examples mind you, but the same mindset is taking place. And the funny thing is, I don't really see a lot of people who are concerned with whether it was right or wrong to kill him, and in reality I think most people realize there wasn't a lot of choice in the matter, it's more an attitude of we have to take the piss out of them for even thinking they accomplished something.
"See a broad to get dat booty yak 'em, leg 'er down, a smack 'em yak 'em!"
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
-MLK
:roll: :thumbdown:
how can you POSSIBLY give an "eyeroll", "sick" and "thumbsdown" to this???? WTF???
The guy's name is "metsfan", probably from the NY area, and people are going get on him for being happy about Bin Laden being killed? Seriously? This has to be explained?
Why is it so hard for you people to understand that people like myself and metsfan are happy that the self confessed mass murderer/terrorist/scumbag is dead? Yeah there's still going to be terrorism, we get that. But there's one less "mastermind' behind it. This animal that hurt so many innocent lives won't kill anybody ever again. This is bad to you? This is a moral victory. A morale booster. And we'll celebrate. So if this annoys you, that sucks for you.
I love peace as much as the next guy, but seriously, all you people that are calling us out for being happy about it are hypocrites. I'd like to see you guys go hug a suicide bomber and see where that love gets you.
I found this quote on Time pretty cool: "Bin Laden had religious zeal that we don't have; America has a national spirit, and we don't have that either."
* A CHINESE ONLINE COMMENTATOR,
* writing on Weibo, China's most popular microblogging site, while watching Americans celebrate the death of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden
how can you POSSIBLY give an "eyeroll", "sick" and "thumbsdown" to this???? WTF???[/quote]
The guy's name is "metsfan", probably from the NY area, and people are going get on him for being happy about Bin Laden being killed? Seriously? This has to be explained?
Why is it so hard for you people to understand that people like myself and metsfan are happy that the self confessed mass murderer/terrorist/scumbag is dead? Yeah there's still going to be terrorism, we get that. But there's one less "mastermind' behind it. This animal that hurt so many innocent lives won't kill anybody ever again. This is bad to you? This is a moral victory. A morale booster. And we'll celebrate. So if this annoys you, that sucks for you.
I love peace as much as the next guy, but seriously, all you people that are calling us out for being happy about it are hypocrites. I'd like to see you guys go hug a suicide bomber and see where that love gets you.
I found this quote on Time pretty cool: "Bin Laden had religious zeal that we don't have; America has a national spirit, and we don't have that either."
* A CHINESE ONLINE COMMENTATOR,
* writing on Weibo, China's most popular microblogging site, while watching Americans celebrate the death of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden
Maybe you're lacking national spirit? We're not.[/quote]
Maybe my national spirit uses more of my frontal lobe.
"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy. Returning hate for hate multiplies hate, adding deeper darkness to a night already devoid of stars. Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate: only love can do that."
-MLK
This is a great quote when you're dealing with a group of rational people. But you can't be rational to a group of irrational people. And under those circumstances greater lengths need to be taken beyond peace love and harmony.
Nonviolence is fine as long as it works.
Malcolm X
Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.
Malcolm X
It was from the White House that US president Barack Obama watched his highly skilled operatives enter Osama bin Laden's Pakistan compound and shoot dead the terrorist leader.
Flagged by key staff in vice president Joe Biden and US secretary of state Hillary Clinton, Mr Obama watched through a video camera attached to the helmet of a Navy Seal as bin Laden was shot in the left eye.
It was from the White House that US president Barack Obama watched his highly skilled operatives enter Osama bin Laden's Pakistan compound and shoot dead the terrorist leader.
Flagged by key staff in vice president Joe Biden and US secretary of state Hillary Clinton, Mr Obama watched through a video camera attached to the helmet of a Navy Seal as bin Laden was shot in the left eye.
America is in huge debt, if they were smart they would've aired the execution Live on Pay Per View, would pull in some great numbers. Would beat Avatar box office numbers I bet.
The guy's name is "metsfan", probably from the NY area, and people are going get on him for being happy about Bin Laden being killed? Seriously? This has to be explained?
Why is it so hard for you people to understand that people like myself and metsfan are happy that the self confessed mass murderer/terrorist/scumbag is dead? Yeah there's still going to be terrorism, we get that. But there's one less "mastermind' behind it. This animal that hurt so many innocent lives won't kill anybody ever again. This is bad to you? This is a moral victory. A morale booster. And we'll celebrate. So if this annoys you, that sucks for you.
I understand why people are happy that he's gone, but will this celabratory mood continue when we hear from the victim's families of the inevitable retaliatory terrorist attack?
I watched a lot of news coverage of bin Laden's death yesterday, including interviews with relatives of those killed on 9/11, and there was a stark contrast between their sombre contemplation and the mass hysteria going on in Times Square. Sure bin Laden's death is a symbolic moment, but in reality it will just add fuel to the fire.
I love peace as much as the next guy, but seriously, all you people that are calling us out for being happy about it are hypocrites. I'd like to see you guys go hug a suicide bomber and see where that love gets you.
Well that's a very black and white view to take - I'm not exactly crying tears for him. To me the celebrating in the streets immediately brought back memories of those Palestinians dancing in the street after 9/11 - crass and uncalled for.
First - that is a great quote by MLK, but I'm pretty sure what he's referring to there has nothing to do with the likes of Osama and Hitler (who BTW, had their deaths reported on the same day - May 1 - 2011 by USA and 1945 by Germany, respectively - weird). Now, I think he'd be on the side not kill. But, I also think he'd side with the SEALs when he heard fire fight and trusted their well trained judgment. Don't take a quote out of its context and think the speaker would apply it everywhere. MLK was a brilliant man. And while he would never have advocated killing, he certainly wouldn't be pontificating against THIS mission. This would not make him hypocritical. It would make him a critical thinker (which he was).
A better quote for this situation, which I think MLK might agree with is from the great Mark Twain -
“I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.”
I'm not presuming to know what/how someone as great as MLK would react to this news. So, please don't read into it this way (though, I do see how you would). My only point is - you shouldn't presume to know how he would react to this extremely unique situation either.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
we can celebrate the lives that will be saved because this man is dead.
we can celebrate a feeling of security even if it's just a little, a little more than we had after 9/11
we can remember what we lost in our own country from the actions of this man and his followers.
we can remember our friends who were taken from us and the hero's that died trying to save them.
we can remember the lives that are forever changed because of the attacks on 9/11
we can cry tears of pain and tears of joy while we remember all these things and people.
how can we celebrate the death of a sick mind that caused so much pain distruction ?
maybe we are celebrating the death of an evil man and his actions and maybe we are
celebrating justice being delt but in any case bin laden is dead,think I'll have a drink.
gotta love the U-S-A chants everywhere ... it's like you guys won the world cup or something ... sadly ... this is not a game and you didn't win anything ... nobody did ... nobody has except the large multi-national corporations who have benefited from conflict (defense contractors, haliburton, oil companies, mercenaries) ...
all that happened was you killed the man you gave birth to ... like noriega and many others ... he was a figurehead to rally a nation that sees only darkness in other places and not their own ... continue to chant ... all the innocent lives and families torn that amount to a thousand times the lives of 9-11 are listening as you continue to spit in their grave and suffering ...
flame away ... i'm already bitter from the results of our election ... :(
we can celebrate the lives that will be saved because this man is dead.
we can celebrate a feeling of security even if it's just a little, a little more than we had after 9/11
we can remember what we lost in our own country from the actions of this man and his followers.
we can remember our friends who were taken from us and the hero's that died trying to save them.
we can remember the lives that are forever changed because of the attacks on 9/11
we can cry tears of pain and tears of joy while we remember all these things and people.
how can we celebrate the death of a sick mind that caused so much pain distruction ?
maybe we are celebrating the death of an evil man and his actions and maybe we are
celebrating justice being delt but in any case bin laden is dead,think I'll have a drink.
Godfather.
I think it's more to do with the manner in which it was 'celebrated'. What should have been a sombre rememberence of all people who died and suffered under this man's terror and his legacy looked more like spring break then anything else. I have been reading comments made by the victims families who wanted to attend Ground Zero to light a candle or bring a picture of their dead husband/wife/loved one to quietly reflect on the past ten years but instead they got something like a street party with signs reading 'Obama 1 - Osama 0' football chants of 'USA-USA' and yes even a girl climbed a street post and lifted up her shirt :roll:
Dignity is what was missing from these 'celebrations'.
gotta love the U-S-A chants everywhere ... it's like you guys won the world cup or something ... sadly ... this is not a game and you didn't win anything ... nobody did ... nobody has except the large multi-national corporations who have benefited from conflict (defense contractors, haliburton, oil companies, mercenaries) ...
all that happened was you killed the man you gave birth to ... like noriega and many others ... he was a figurehead to rally a nation that sees only darkness in other places and not their own ... continue to chant ... all the innocent lives and families torn that amount to a thousand times the lives of 9-11 are listening as you continue to spit in their grave and suffering ...
flame away ... i'm already bitter from the results of our election ... :(
I'm not really sure how anyone can be this negative about this situation.
I think it's more to do with the manner in which it was 'celebrated'. What should have been a sombre rememberence of all people who died and suffered under this man's terror and his legacy looked more like spring break then anything else.
I tend to agree with you here. But then, who are we to decide how others get to show their emotion in this case? Not to mention, I think the majority of people didn't celebrate in a poor manner. I just think we always talk about the 10%.
gotta love the U-S-A chants everywhere ... it's like you guys won the world cup or something ... sadly ... this is not a game and you didn't win anything ... nobody did ... nobody has except the large multi-national corporations who have benefited from conflict (defense contractors, haliburton, oil companies, mercenaries) ...
all that happened was you killed the man you gave birth to ... like noriega and many others ... he was a figurehead to rally a nation that sees only darkness in other places and not their own ... continue to chant ... all the innocent lives and families torn that amount to a thousand times the lives of 9-11 are listening as you continue to spit in their grave and suffering ...
flame away ... i'm already bitter from the results of our election ... :(
I'm not really sure how anyone can be this negative about this situation.
I don't detect any negaitivity in his post, just honesty.
I'm not really sure how anyone can be this negative about this situation.
I don't detect any negaitivity in his post, just honesty.
to be fair ... it's a little bit of both ... i'm not a big fan of the jingoism that presides in the US ... but yeah - i think the people that are chanting are losing sight that this war on terrorism has two sides and neither of them are good ...
The supposed fortune in minerals is a pipe dream. No one is going to devote the resources necessary or invest the money that is required to tap into those resources, especially considering how volatile the area is (and will be for quite some time).
Since when does a volatile area stop the US from conducting business with/in or around an area or place?
The article itself mentions that there is absolutely no mining infrastructure and that it would take decades to develop it. Who makes that investment in a volatile land-locked country that is surrounded by China, Pakistan, and Iran?
I've watched the old footage on t.v. after hitler was defeted and there were ticker tape parades and partying in the streets and same when japan surendered and now that bin laden is dead you guys critize others for celebrating this moment in history, who are you to judge anybody for showing emotions during this event ?
I got news for ya, we(here on the train) are no different and no better than any of those people celebrating,chanting or lifting their shirts and if you really believe you are in some way better then them your sadly mistaken, we all make it through this life the best we can than we leave this world.
don't waste your time judging someone else for showing how they fell especially if you haven't shared their experiances.
First - that is a great quote by MLK, but I'm pretty sure what he's referring to there has nothing to do with the likes of Osama and Hitler (who BTW, had their deaths reported on the same day - May 1 - 2011 by USA and 1945 by Germany, respectively - weird). Now, I think he'd be on the side not kill. But, I also think he'd side with the SEALs when he heard fire fight and trusted their well trained judgment. Don't take a quote out of its context and think the speaker would apply it everywhere. MLK was a brilliant man. And while he would never have advocated killing, he certainly wouldn't be pontificating against THIS mission. This would not make him hypocritical. It would make him a critical thinker (which he was).
A better quote for this situation, which I think MLK might agree with is from the great Mark Twain -
“I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.”
I'm not presuming to know what/how someone as great as MLK would react to this news. So, please don't read into it this way (though, I do see how you would). My only point is - you shouldn't presume to know how he would react to this extremely unique situation either.
good post man, I agree. I doubt MLKs quote encompasses a terrorist that had a hand in killing over 3,000 people in one day and how the US govt dealt with him over the weekend. There are probably a million quotes that could be thrown into this thing and would be taken out of context.
I'm not big on the celebrations. Not against them either. Let folks do what they feel. That's what we're about. But, one thing that struck me is everyone I saw celebrating was chanting USA, holding American flags, saying the pledge and singing the National Anthem. Whereas, in other countries the celebrations that folks have referenced is about burning the American flag, and nothing about their own nationalism.
So, the US celebrations are different. They are actual celebrations. Whereas other countries (blanket statement, I'm sure there are exceptions) are about hatred. Places like the UK, Canada, Israel would celebrate similar to how the US does. While others don't. There's something interesting about that.
So, what's wrong with showing a little patriotism now and then? Just like you can come on boards like this and express your views openly, those folks should be able to dance and sing their country's praise freely and openly. You should feel lucky, as many of the folks you think we're oppressing don't have that opportunity from their own government.
And to those that say we created this and such - that is such liberal, self loathing bull. That's like saying the bullied created the bully. I'm not saying we don't have our mis-steps. When you are looked to for everything both positively and negatively, you are bound to be imperfect. But, on the whole, I think the US and its true allies make the best of what is given to them. It tears at our very heart that we cannot help everyone that needs it. Yes, we pick spots where it ALSO serves us. But, we also do a ton for folks for no reason at all other than the good of man (Haiti, "Tear Down That Wall!"). Quite frankly, I wish sometimes our focus would be more on our own needy rather than being the World's cry towel. Because unfortunately, all too often the ones we help wind up being our biggest critics.
Thank you is the proper response.
Sorry. The world doesn't work the way you tell it to.
I think it's more to do with the manner in which it was 'celebrated'. What should have been a sombre rememberence of all people who died and suffered under this man's terror and his legacy looked more like spring break then anything else.
I tend to agree with you here. But then, who are we to decide how others get to show their emotion in this case? Not to mention, I think the majority of people didn't celebrate in a poor manner. I just think we always talk about the 10%.
The way I look at it???
I agree 100% with what you had to say yesterday. The people celebrating at the White House? The people cheering in the streets? I am pretty sure a majority of them were a bunch of ding-a-lings who were just looking to drink there booze, act silly, and parade around the streets doing just that. Bin Ladens death gave them an excuse and the oppurtunity to do just that. The people of New York suffered tremendously on 9-11. Many people lost friends and family. They want to celebrate and cheer Bin Ladens death? Like you said earlier, "Who are we to judge how others show their emotion"?
As far as the rest of the world judging us "Stupid Americans' ? LIke you said, are we talking about 10% of the nation that went to the streets and celebrated? It is probably more like 1%. So if the rest of the world wants to judge us Americans, based on the actions of 1% of the nation? Then let them judge away. It really doesn't bother me in the least. Do I judge all of Europe, by how their Hooligans act at any given soccer match? Do I judge all of the Muslim world by the actions of Bin Laden? Do I judge all of the Muslim World Because thousands of them paraded around and celebrated when those 2 towers went down on 9-11? No I do not! Why? Because I am smarter than that.
Take me piece by piece..... Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
I'm not big on the celebrations. Not against them either. Let folks do what they feel. That's what we're about. But, one thing that struck me is everyone I saw celebrating was chanting USA, holding American flags, saying the pledge and singing the National Anthem. Whereas, in other countries the celebrations that folks have referenced is about burning the American flag, and nothing about their own nationalism.
So, the US celebrations are different. They are actual celebrations. Whereas other countries (blanket statement, I'm sure there are exceptions) are about hatred. Places like the UK, Canada, Israel would celebrate similar to how the US does. While others don't. There's something interesting about that.
So, what's wrong with showing a little patriotism now and then? Just like you can come on boards like this and express your views openly, those folks should be able to dance and sing their country's praise freely and openly. You should feel lucky, as many of the folks you think we're oppressing don't have that opportunity from their own government.
And to those that say we created this and such - that is such liberal, self loathing bull. That's like saying the bullied created the bully. I'm not saying we don't have our mis-steps. When you are looked to for everything both positively and negatively, you are bound to be imperfect. But, on the whole, I think the US and its true allies make the best of what is given to them. It tears at our very heart that we cannot help everyone that needs it. Yes, we pick spots where it ALSO serves us. But, we also do a ton for folks for no reason at all other than the good of man (Haiti, "Tear Down That Wall!"). Quite frankly, I wish sometimes our focus would be more on our own needy rather than being the World's cry towel. Because unfortunately, all too often the ones we help wind up being our biggest critics.
I've watched the old footage on t.v. after hitler was defeted and there were ticker tape parades and partying in the streets and same when japan surendered and now that bin laden is dead you guys critize others for celebrating this moment in history, who are you to judge anybody for showing emotions during this event ?
I got news for ya, we(here on the train) are no different and no better than any of those people celebrating,chanting or lifting their shirts and if you really believe you are in some way better then them your sadly mistaken, we all make it through this life the best we can than we leave this world.
don't waste your time judging someone else for showing how they fell especially if you haven't shared their experiances.
Godfather.
Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?
Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?
this is a good post. i was just typing essentially what you just said. this is essentially what we did in iraq, deposed hussein and we are still there fighting now many years later? bin laden is gone, yet those he inspired are not giving up. celebrations are premature, especially when the fight goes on.
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Comments
Where do you get these numbers? I've seen all sorts of estimates and this is on the high end. And most died from a gunshot wound (Opinion Research Board). You can say 1 million and I can use the Iraq Body count of 110,000. Regardless, we should not have been there in the first place.
My point is that Bush and Obama are not the evil ones here. I don't think they want to kill civilians. But Osama would have no problem wiping out as many innocent Americans/westerners as possible. That is why he's the a-hole. Again, I'm not agreeing with our war/foreign policy. Its been a mess since WW2. But to suggest Bush and Obama are the cause for more death/evil than Osama is just dumb.
Also, I dont' mean to suggest that just because we save lives it gives us the right to take them as we please. I was just trying to show that our gov't does do some humanitarian good.
unfortunately, it's not just YOUR victory, nor is it just YOUR danger. It's all of us, friend. and the reason people are making the point that this is not the end of terrorism, is because american politicians (and citizens) can sometimes put the cart before the horse, and claim mission accomplished when it has no business being claimed. the white house scene last night looked as if the war had been declared over. I'm actually impressed that most of the influential politicians are making sure to say "it's not over". It's some asses in the media that are speculating the end of the war.
he was no hitler whose ideology got defeated along with him. he was dangerous. and now he's exponentially more dangerous now that he will be cast as a deity.
we're speaking as friends, as neighbors, just to say "hey good for you, but don't let your guard down".
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
how can you POSSIBLY give an "eyeroll", "sick" and "thumbsdown" to this???? WTF???
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
what did we win? if the objective was to kill bin laden then we accomplished that. but if the "war on terror" is truely being fought to eliminate terrorism, which is a tactic, by the way, then we have a long way to go...
when the unibomber was arrested nobody claimed it as a "victory"...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Well some of the posts haven't been friendly, I wasn't referring to stuff like you are talking about that Paul. I'm talking about the ones saying that the stupid Americans living in their bubble need to realize that nothing is over, etc. Personally I didn't hear anybody in the media saying it was over, because the fact that there may be reprisals and the fearmongering that the media loves so much was too good to pass up. I didn't see 2 minutes go by on any story talking about bin Laden that didn't make it abundantly clear that they are going to want revenge.
And my point is this is just an internet message board, the world isn't going to end if somebody on here feels some sort of victory over this. After all this is a complicated issue, and people have complicated feelings about it. There is no one right or wrong way they should be feeling. And I'm just saying, if somebody does feel like "hey we won something", it's not anybody's job to take that away, or change their mind. I wasn't saying it is a victory, but I'm saying that if somebody feels that way, it's valid.
Any victory, when you think about it can be made insignificant. Let's say somebody's country wins the World Cup or a gold medal or something, and they feel good about that, then I come along and say, yeah well you're president/prime minister/whatever is a dickhead, your economy is in the gutter, you have homeless people and etc, so your victory means nothing. Isn't that kind of douchy of me to do? If somebody feels like stopping bin Laden is a good thing (that's their opinion, sense of victory) I don't feel the need to take the piss out of them.
Or on something more topical, let's say they announce PJ20 tomorrow and it sounds amazing, and people are excited. Then I swoop in and criticize people for caring about a rock concert when there are wars, natural disasters, starvation, etc in the world, and all you can think about is a rock concert. That would be lame.
Those are just examples mind you, but the same mindset is taking place. And the funny thing is, I don't really see a lot of people who are concerned with whether it was right or wrong to kill him, and in reality I think most people realize there wasn't a lot of choice in the matter, it's more an attitude of we have to take the piss out of them for even thinking they accomplished something.
The guy's name is "metsfan", probably from the NY area, and people are going get on him for being happy about Bin Laden being killed? Seriously? This has to be explained?
Why is it so hard for you people to understand that people like myself and metsfan are happy that the self confessed mass murderer/terrorist/scumbag is dead? Yeah there's still going to be terrorism, we get that. But there's one less "mastermind' behind it. This animal that hurt so many innocent lives won't kill anybody ever again. This is bad to you? This is a moral victory. A morale booster. And we'll celebrate. So if this annoys you, that sucks for you.
I love peace as much as the next guy, but seriously, all you people that are calling us out for being happy about it are hypocrites. I'd like to see you guys go hug a suicide bomber and see where that love gets you.
I found this quote on Time pretty cool: "Bin Laden had religious zeal that we don't have; America has a national spirit, and we don't have that either."
* A CHINESE ONLINE COMMENTATOR,
* writing on Weibo, China's most popular microblogging site, while watching Americans celebrate the death of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden
Maybe you're lacking national spirit? We're not.
The guy's name is "metsfan", probably from the NY area, and people are going get on him for being happy about Bin Laden being killed? Seriously? This has to be explained?
Why is it so hard for you people to understand that people like myself and metsfan are happy that the self confessed mass murderer/terrorist/scumbag is dead? Yeah there's still going to be terrorism, we get that. But there's one less "mastermind' behind it. This animal that hurt so many innocent lives won't kill anybody ever again. This is bad to you? This is a moral victory. A morale booster. And we'll celebrate. So if this annoys you, that sucks for you.
I love peace as much as the next guy, but seriously, all you people that are calling us out for being happy about it are hypocrites. I'd like to see you guys go hug a suicide bomber and see where that love gets you.
I found this quote on Time pretty cool: "Bin Laden had religious zeal that we don't have; America has a national spirit, and we don't have that either."
* A CHINESE ONLINE COMMENTATOR,
* writing on Weibo, China's most popular microblogging site, while watching Americans celebrate the death of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden
Maybe you're lacking national spirit? We're not.[/quote]
Maybe my national spirit uses more of my frontal lobe.
This is a great quote when you're dealing with a group of rational people. But you can't be rational to a group of irrational people. And under those circumstances greater lengths need to be taken beyond peace love and harmony.
Nonviolence is fine as long as it works.
Malcolm X
Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone; but if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery.
Malcolm X
http://au.news.yahoo.com/queensland/a/- ... eath-live/
It was from the White House that US president Barack Obama watched his highly skilled operatives enter Osama bin Laden's Pakistan compound and shoot dead the terrorist leader.
Flagged by key staff in vice president Joe Biden and US secretary of state Hillary Clinton, Mr Obama watched through a video camera attached to the helmet of a Navy Seal as bin Laden was shot in the left eye.
America is in huge debt, if they were smart they would've aired the execution Live on Pay Per View, would pull in some great numbers. Would beat Avatar box office numbers I bet.
I understand why people are happy that he's gone, but will this celabratory mood continue when we hear from the victim's families of the inevitable retaliatory terrorist attack?
I watched a lot of news coverage of bin Laden's death yesterday, including interviews with relatives of those killed on 9/11, and there was a stark contrast between their sombre contemplation and the mass hysteria going on in Times Square. Sure bin Laden's death is a symbolic moment, but in reality it will just add fuel to the fire.
Well that's a very black and white view to take - I'm not exactly crying tears for him. To me the celebrating in the streets immediately brought back memories of those Palestinians dancing in the street after 9/11 - crass and uncalled for.
A better quote for this situation, which I think MLK might agree with is from the great Mark Twain -
“I’ve never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure.”
I'm not presuming to know what/how someone as great as MLK would react to this news. So, please don't read into it this way (though, I do see how you would). My only point is - you shouldn't presume to know how he would react to this extremely unique situation either.
we can celebrate a feeling of security even if it's just a little, a little more than we had after 9/11
we can remember what we lost in our own country from the actions of this man and his followers.
we can remember our friends who were taken from us and the hero's that died trying to save them.
we can remember the lives that are forever changed because of the attacks on 9/11
we can cry tears of pain and tears of joy while we remember all these things and people.
how can we celebrate the death of a sick mind that caused so much pain distruction ?
maybe we are celebrating the death of an evil man and his actions and maybe we are
celebrating justice being delt but in any case bin laden is dead,think I'll have a drink.
Godfather.
all that happened was you killed the man you gave birth to ... like noriega and many others ... he was a figurehead to rally a nation that sees only darkness in other places and not their own ... continue to chant ... all the innocent lives and families torn that amount to a thousand times the lives of 9-11 are listening as you continue to spit in their grave and suffering ...
flame away ... i'm already bitter from the results of our election ... :(
I think it's more to do with the manner in which it was 'celebrated'. What should have been a sombre rememberence of all people who died and suffered under this man's terror and his legacy looked more like spring break then anything else. I have been reading comments made by the victims families who wanted to attend Ground Zero to light a candle or bring a picture of their dead husband/wife/loved one to quietly reflect on the past ten years but instead they got something like a street party with signs reading 'Obama 1 - Osama 0' football chants of 'USA-USA' and yes even a girl climbed a street post and lifted up her shirt :roll:
Dignity is what was missing from these 'celebrations'.
I'm not really sure how anyone can be this negative about this situation.
I tend to agree with you here. But then, who are we to decide how others get to show their emotion in this case? Not to mention, I think the majority of people didn't celebrate in a poor manner. I just think we always talk about the 10%.
I don't detect any negaitivity in his post, just honesty.
to be fair ... it's a little bit of both ... i'm not a big fan of the jingoism that presides in the US ... but yeah - i think the people that are chanting are losing sight that this war on terrorism has two sides and neither of them are good ...
I got news for ya, we(here on the train) are no different and no better than any of those people celebrating,chanting or lifting their shirts and if you really believe you are in some way better then them your sadly mistaken, we all make it through this life the best we can than we leave this world.
don't waste your time judging someone else for showing how they fell especially if you haven't shared their experiances.
Godfather.
i dunno, maybe it was the american dream dusty rhodes....one of the two...
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
good post man, I agree. I doubt MLKs quote encompasses a terrorist that had a hand in killing over 3,000 people in one day and how the US govt dealt with him over the weekend. There are probably a million quotes that could be thrown into this thing and would be taken out of context.
So, the US celebrations are different. They are actual celebrations. Whereas other countries (blanket statement, I'm sure there are exceptions) are about hatred. Places like the UK, Canada, Israel would celebrate similar to how the US does. While others don't. There's something interesting about that.
So, what's wrong with showing a little patriotism now and then? Just like you can come on boards like this and express your views openly, those folks should be able to dance and sing their country's praise freely and openly. You should feel lucky, as many of the folks you think we're oppressing don't have that opportunity from their own government.
And to those that say we created this and such - that is such liberal, self loathing bull. That's like saying the bullied created the bully. I'm not saying we don't have our mis-steps. When you are looked to for everything both positively and negatively, you are bound to be imperfect. But, on the whole, I think the US and its true allies make the best of what is given to them. It tears at our very heart that we cannot help everyone that needs it. Yes, we pick spots where it ALSO serves us. But, we also do a ton for folks for no reason at all other than the good of man (Haiti, "Tear Down That Wall!"). Quite frankly, I wish sometimes our focus would be more on our own needy rather than being the World's cry towel. Because unfortunately, all too often the ones we help wind up being our biggest critics.
Thank you is the proper response.
I agree 100% with what you had to say yesterday. The people celebrating at the White House? The people cheering in the streets? I am pretty sure a majority of them were a bunch of ding-a-lings who were just looking to drink there booze, act silly, and parade around the streets doing just that. Bin Ladens death gave them an excuse and the oppurtunity to do just that. The people of New York suffered tremendously on 9-11. Many people lost friends and family. They want to celebrate and cheer Bin Ladens death? Like you said earlier, "Who are we to judge how others show their emotion"?
As far as the rest of the world judging us "Stupid Americans' ? LIke you said, are we talking about 10% of the nation that went to the streets and celebrated? It is probably more like 1%. So if the rest of the world wants to judge us Americans, based on the actions of 1% of the nation? Then let them judge away. It really doesn't bother me in the least. Do I judge all of Europe, by how their Hooligans act at any given soccer match? Do I judge all of the Muslim world by the actions of Bin Laden? Do I judge all of the Muslim World Because thousands of them paraded around and celebrated when those 2 towers went down on 9-11? No I do not! Why? Because I am smarter than that.
Till there aint nothing left worth taking away from me.....
Thank You !
Godfather.
Hitler's defeat and Japan's surrender were pivotal moments that ended the war, this situation is much more complex - the war on 'terror' is far from over, so the celebrations are premature. Does anyone really feel any safer now bin Laden is gone?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."