I don't know...I think it's embarrassing that it took the great and powerful U.S. 10 YEARS to capture someone that should have taken months to do, seeing that we're supposedly so beefed up military-wise... Americans should be saying "WTF did it take so long", over "Yay! we finally got 'em!"
We should say both.
They U.S. does not have a lot of friends in that part of the world and, for the most part, they follow international rules and respect other countries' process. I can only imagine how long it took to get Pakistan to cooperate and ultimately agree to a military operation. Id bet there was some cash involved there.
btw this investigation in the threads about DNA is funny...
for me from the moment that the president of the USA say to the whole world Osama is dead,who the fuck can say or have the power to proove the opposite???
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
btw this investigation in the threads about DNA is funny...
for me from the moment that the president of the USA say to the whole world Osama is dead,who the fuck can say or have the power to proove the opposite???
very good point.
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They U.S. does not have a lot of friends in that part of the world and, for the most part, they follow international rules and respect other countries' process. I can only imagine how long it took to get Pakistan to cooperate and ultimately agree to a military operation. Id bet there was some cash involved there.
ummm, I would say (based on facts) the US for the most part does not follow international rules/laws and really does not respect any other country. With perhaps the exception of Israel.
I wanted to add this as well.. to those on here who are saying Osama bin Laden deserved a fair trial..
You are more than entitled to that opinion, and I respect that.
My opinion is this. He 'deserved' nothing less than painful torture. If you can suggest a living person as of two days ago more evil than him.. I'm all ears.
Taking a bullet in the head was getting off easy as far as I'm concerned.
Again, call me barbaric... but that's my opinion.
Who ever has said that he entitled to a fair trial needs to talk to a 9/11 survivor or better yet a family member. This was the right way to close Bin Laden's chapter. Could you imagine the media circus? The family members reliving the pain? I am all for assassinations. They are cheaper and far less civilians die.
i think a fair question would have been could Osama get a fair trial? could we find 12 people to be in the jury of this case?
btw this investigation in the threads about DNA is funny...
for me from the moment that the president of the USA say to the whole world Osama is dead,who the fuck can say or have the power to proove the opposite???
The president can lie and get caught in a lie. The lie has to be about extra-marital sexual exploits, probably involving Cuban cigars, and it requires a Republican Congress.
Republican Congress? Check.
Obama and Osama going out Tomcat style after Bin Laden's death? It has yet to be reported...
I also believe that americans should be happy that they got a criminal.
...And that's only one criminal! Imagine how happy we would all be if we fenced off the capitol building while Congress was in session with 20 foot high fences and barbed wire!
eh you all voted for them. (and when i say you all i mean the American public not the member of this forum, before someone says i didn't vote for those idiots)
These kill innocent people more indiscriminately than are soldiers.
I don't argue with your premise that the war effort is doing more harm than good. I'm all for pulling our troops home all over the world. But to suggest that Bush and Obama are the more evil ones is ludicrous.
An estimated 1 million civilians were killed in Iraq. The majority of these deaths were as a direct result of coalition aerial bombardments.
How many lives does our gov't save by donating billions around the world?
I doubt the number excuses all the lives snuffed out as a result of wars, the arms trade, and the West's destructive economic policies towards the third world.
Post edited by Byrnzie on
0
rick1zoo2
between a rock and a dumb place Posts: 12,632
btw this investigation in the threads about DNA is funny...
for me from the moment that the president of the USA say to the whole world Osama is dead,who the fuck can say or have the power to proove the opposite???
I agree with you, but I do remember a certain president saying that invading Iraq was justified because they had proof of weapons of mass destruction. and we know how that turned out......
-The sea burial
-No proof
-No capture
-No Americans injured in this so-called incident
-They torched the compound
I could go on.
I just think it's very important that we QUESTION everything we hear from the U.S. government and not just blindly believe everything we hear.
Sea Burial: - CNN: [Updated 12:22 p.m. ET] Osama bin Laden's body was buried at sea according to Islamic law because no country was willing or able to take his body for burial on land, senior Defense officials said.
"When there is no land alternative, Islamic law dictates that the body be buried within 24 hours, and that was the basis," one official said. "
A second senior Defense official said there was no country willing or able to accept the body for burial, and U.S. forces "took pains to observe Muslim law."
No Proof: Not sure how much more you need
No Capture: They killed him and took his body
No Americans Inujured in this so called incident: SEALS are fucking awesome.
"so called incident"? Something happened in Abbotabad. There are locals, witnesses, etc...here's some info from CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/ ... 8843.shtml
btw this investigation in the threads about DNA is funny...
for me from the moment that the president of the USA say to the whole world Osama is dead,who the fuck can say or have the power to proove the opposite???
The president can lie and get caught in a lie. The lie has to be about extra-marital sexual exploits, probably involving Cuban cigars, and it requires a Republican Congress.
Republican Congress? Check.
Obama and Osama going out Tomcat style after Bin Laden's death? It has yet to be reported...
this type of lie???they already do what they have to do before comes obama on air..who can proove that this isnt osama??...this people are proffecionals..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
They U.S. does not have a lot of friends in that part of the world and, for the most part, they follow international rules and respect other countries' process. I can only imagine how long it took to get Pakistan to cooperate and ultimately agree to a military operation. Id bet there was some cash involved there.
ummm, I would say (based on facts) the US for the most part does not follow international rules/laws and really does not respect any other country. With perhaps the exception of Israel.
Such as? And I am not talking about individual behaviors/incidents. And there was probably a tipping point here as well. At what point would the U.S. have been justified in going into pakistan without approval?
And I am no expert on these things, but I think they would have got the blessing of most of the world to go in.
btw this investigation in the threads about DNA is funny...
for me from the moment that the president of the USA say to the whole world Osama is dead,who the fuck can say or have the power to proove the opposite???
I agree with you, but I do remember a certain president saying that invading Iraq was justified because they had proof of weapons of mass destruction. and we know how that turned out......
i saw the movie with Sean Penn...did anyone say sorry?did the victims of bombing can come back? Americans went to war and die ..?
politicians can bury us Alive before we can spell the first letter of word Alive..
"...Dimitri...He talks to me...'.."The Ghost of Greece..".
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
As a Pakistani I really can't say I can celebrate Osama's death cause to me he is not the problem. The problem is political situation and unrest that have been created in countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan over the years of unjust political policies and ignorance. Its is because of such situation and circumstances people like Osama can manipulate the youth to get support. The whole threat of terrorism will be gone if for ONCE the US did the right thing which would be to stay the course and help Afghanistan get on it own two feet and not just leave before the job is done like they did in 1989 in Afghanistan and like they did in 1991 in Iraq.
Countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan expereince wrath of terrorism first hand and they have been for the last 20 plus years. Way Way before 9/11.
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They U.S. does not have a lot of friends in that part of the world and, for the most part, they follow international rules and respect other countries' process. I can only imagine how long it took to get Pakistan to cooperate and ultimately agree to a military operation. Id bet there was some cash involved there.
ummm, I would say (based on facts) the US for the most part does not follow international rules/laws and really does not respect any other country. With perhaps the exception of Israel.
Such as? And I am not talking about individual behaviors/incidents. And there was probably a tipping point here as well. At what point would the U.S. have been justified in going into pakistan without approval?
And I am no expert on these things, but I think they would have got the blessing of most of the world to go in.
How many civilians has the US killed just in Pakistan alone? Many many thousands, probably more than the amount of people who died on 9/11. But in reality, one innocent life is too much.
So based on this alone, could the US ever really be justified in it's actions? We have America, a country breaking law after law, human right violations after another.
I'm curious, when will it be justified for another country to come and invade America? Saving the world from all of her evils? Also keeping in mind that it was American Policy that created Bin Laden.
As a Pakistani I really can't say I can celebrate Osama's death cause to me he is not the problem. The problem is political situation and unrest that have been created in countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan over the years of unjust political policies and ignorance. Its is because of such situation and circumstances people like Osama can manipulate the youth to get support. The whole threat of terrorism will be gone if for ONCE the US did the right thing which would be to stay the course and help Afghanistan get on it own two feet and not just leave before the job is done like they did in 1989 in Afghanistan and like they did in 1991 in Iraq.
Countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan expereince wrath of terrorism first hand and they have been for the last 20 plus years. Way Way before 9/11.
Osama was not the problem? He was a HUGE part of the problem. Without him 9/11 never occurs. His death does not fix everything, but it helps.
How many civilians has the US killed just in Pakistan alone? Many many thousands, probably more than the amount of people who died on 9/11. But in reality, one innocent life is too much.
So based on this alone, could the US ever really be justified in it's actions? We have America, a country breaking law after law, human right violations after another.
I'm curious, when will it be justified for another country to come and invade America? Saving the world from all of her evils? Also keeping in mind that it was American Policy that created Bin Laden.
For the sake of argument, I will agree about Pakistan. I don't make the leap that you do in saying "could the US ever really be justified in it's actions?" That alone does not render my statement "for the most part" inaccurate.
While far from perfect, the US is not the evil empire you describe. Many of the human rights violations you speak of are the result of individual behavior. What would be the basis for an invasion? If I knew the reason then I could comment. Would Iraq have a good reason for doing so after we invaded their country? Perhaps.
I do not mean in any way shape or form to belittle the loss of life. The middle east and western Asia very complicated political and religious issues. Navigating those waters in a way that makes everyone happy is an impossible task.
How many civilians has the US killed just in Pakistan alone? Many many thousands, probably more than the amount of people who died on 9/11. But in reality, one innocent life is too much.
So based on this alone, could the US ever really be justified in it's actions? We have America, a country breaking law after law, human right violations after another.
I'm curious, when will it be justified for another country to come and invade America? Saving the world from all of her evils? Also keeping in mind that it was American Policy that created Bin Laden.
If elements of Pakistan's military and intelligence agencies didn't allow Taliban and Al-Qaida forces to operate within their borders, civilian deaths could have been avoided ... hell, maybe the Afghanistan war would be over by now. Instead, a war is being fought where the leaders of the opposition are given safe harbor by an alleged ally.
How many civilians has the US killed just in Pakistan alone? Many many thousands, probably more than the amount of people who died on 9/11. But in reality, one innocent life is too much.
So based on this alone, could the US ever really be justified in it's actions? We have America, a country breaking law after law, human right violations after another.
I'm curious, when will it be justified for another country to come and invade America? Saving the world from all of her evils? Also keeping in mind that it was American Policy that created Bin Laden.
For the sake of argument, I will agree about Pakistan. I don't make the leap that you do in saying "could the US ever really be justified in it's actions?" That alone does not render my statement "for the most part" inaccurate.
While far from perfect, the US is not the evil empire you describe. Many of the human rights violations you speak of are the result of individual behavior. What would be the basis for an invasion? If I knew the reason then I could comment. Would Iraq have a good reason for doing so after we invaded their country? Perhaps.
I do not mean in any way shape or form to belittle the loss of life. The middle east and western Asia very complicated political and religious issues. Navigating those waters in a way that makes everyone happy is an impossible task.
I don't think it's an impossible task. Not when we understand that just about everyone wants the same thing in the end. To be happy, free and live.
American policy does not allow that to. The whole system is designed for America to be on top and everyone under it. How is that not an evil empire, Add to the constant expansions and base buildings.
I was not speaking about individual behavior, rather government/system behavior. Again read the stories, look at the stats.
American policy supports other corrupt governments and regimes.
So let's see, we have a country (America), that invades other countries going against international law, a country that detains people without trial (Gitmo and other 'secret' prisons) , a country that supports other corrupt governments (Israel, Saudis)
Why would Pakistan Army give shelter to Al-Qaieda and Osama when it is them who have been bombing and killing innocent Pakistanis for over 20 years. More Pakistani soldiers have died fighting this war on terror. Pakistan has been the biggest victim of terrorism and more Pakistani Soldiers have died in this war of terror. NEVER FORGET THAT!!!!!!!
So to blame to Pakistan is just naive and pretty stupid
Like I said before Osamas death does not do anything to stop terror. You in America might think it does but then again you live in a Bubble. You have no idea what your politician and businessmen go around doing in the world. And unless the American international policy changes, acts of terror will keep on happening and new Osamas will be get born in every generation.
Toronto 03, 05, 06, 09
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How many civilians has the US killed just in Pakistan alone? Many many thousands, probably more than the amount of people who died on 9/11. But in reality, one innocent life is too much.
So based on this alone, could the US ever really be justified in it's actions? We have America, a country breaking law after law, human right violations after another.
I'm curious, when will it be justified for another country to come and invade America? Saving the world from all of her evils? Also keeping in mind that it was American Policy that created Bin Laden.
For the sake of argument, I will agree about Pakistan. I don't make the leap that you do in saying "could the US ever really be justified in it's actions?" That alone does not render my statement "for the most part" inaccurate.
While far from perfect, the US is not the evil empire you describe. Many of the human rights violations you speak of are the result of individual behavior. What would be the basis for an invasion? If I knew the reason then I could comment. Would Iraq have a good reason for doing so after we invaded their country? Perhaps.
I do not mean in any way shape or form to belittle the loss of life. The middle east and western Asia very complicated political and religious issues. Navigating those waters in a way that makes everyone happy is an impossible task.
U.S.torture is a good example of human rights violations. That wasn't rogue individuals, but instead got the green light from the top.
Why would Pakistan Army give shelter to Al-Qaieda and Osama when it is them who have been bombing and killing innocent Pakistanis for over 20 years. More Pakistani soldiers have died fighting this war on terror. Pakistan has been the biggest victim of terrorism and more Pakistani Soldiers have died in this war of terror. NEVER FORGET THAT!!!!!!!
So to blame to Pakistan is just naive and pretty stupid
Like I said before Osamas death does not do anything to stop terror. You in America might think it does but then again you live in a Bubble. You have no idea what your politician and businessmen go around doing in the world. And unless the American international policy changes, acts of terror will keep on happening and new Osamas will be get born in every generation.
So is it confirmed that bin laden did not have any control or input in al quada anymore?
I agree that it might not do much (killing bin laden), but one of the questions I asked earlier either got buried or maybe nobody knows the answer -- What happens/happened to bin ladens fortunes? were they locked out years ago (i'm not sure)..were they passed on to his family?
I always figured he was a successful terrorist because of his inheritance and connections. I agree new osamas will be born into every generation (especially if these guys are having 50 fucking kids!), but will they have the same resources??
How many civilians has the US killed just in Pakistan alone? Many many thousands, probably more than the amount of people who died on 9/11. But in reality, one innocent life is too much.
So based on this alone, could the US ever really be justified in it's actions? We have America, a country breaking law after law, human right violations after another.
I'm curious, when will it be justified for another country to come and invade America? Saving the world from all of her evils? Also keeping in mind that it was American Policy that created Bin Laden.
If elements of Pakistan's military and intelligence agencies didn't allow Taliban and Al-Qaida forces to operate within their borders, civilian deaths could have been avoided ... hell, maybe the Afghanistan war would be over by now. Instead, a war is being fought where the leaders of the opposition are given safe harbor by an alleged ally.
The war in Afghanistan is more than just about 'Terror',
Why would Pakistan Army give shelter to Al-Qaieda and Osama when it is them who have been bombing and killing innocent Pakistanis for over 20 years. More Pakistani soldiers have died fighting this war on terror. Pakistan has been the biggest victim of terrorism and more Pakistani Soldiers have died in this war of terror. NEVER FORGET THAT!!!!!!!
So to blame to Pakistan is just naive and pretty stupid
Like I said before Osamas death does not do anything to stop terror. You in America might think it does but then again you live in a Bubble. You have no idea what your politician and businessmen go around doing in the world. And unless the American international policy changes, acts of terror will keep on happening and new Osamas will be get born in every generation.
For Bin Laden to hide out in Pakistan in such close proximity to the capital and home of Pakistan's military- as he was for over a year- it is likely he had some type of support system. Whether the Pakistani government or official Pakistani institutions had a role is speculation. So "blaming" Pakistan wouldn't be the right term...but figuring out as to why he was there protected is a legitiamate question.
The supposed fortune in minerals is a pipe dream. No one is going to devote the resources necessary or invest the money that is required to tap into those resources, especially considering how volatile the area is (and will be for quite some time).
Comments
They U.S. does not have a lot of friends in that part of the world and, for the most part, they follow international rules and respect other countries' process. I can only imagine how long it took to get Pakistan to cooperate and ultimately agree to a military operation. Id bet there was some cash involved there.
for me from the moment that the president of the USA say to the whole world Osama is dead,who the fuck can say or have the power to proove the opposite???
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
And in defense of that objective, I would say killing OBL is probably what the people wanted more than anything else.
very good point.
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http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0511/54093.html
ummm, I would say (based on facts) the US for the most part does not follow international rules/laws and really does not respect any other country. With perhaps the exception of Israel.
i think a fair question would have been could Osama get a fair trial? could we find 12 people to be in the jury of this case?
The president can lie and get caught in a lie. The lie has to be about extra-marital sexual exploits, probably involving Cuban cigars, and it requires a Republican Congress.
Republican Congress? Check.
Obama and Osama going out Tomcat style after Bin Laden's death? It has yet to be reported...
eh you all voted for them. (and when i say you all i mean the American public not the member of this forum, before someone says i didn't vote for those idiots)
An estimated 1 million civilians were killed in Iraq. The majority of these deaths were as a direct result of coalition aerial bombardments.
I doubt the number excuses all the lives snuffed out as a result of wars, the arms trade, and the West's destructive economic policies towards the third world.
I agree with you, but I do remember a certain president saying that invading Iraq was justified because they had proof of weapons of mass destruction. and we know how that turned out......
Donald Rumsfeld.
Sea Burial: - CNN: [Updated 12:22 p.m. ET] Osama bin Laden's body was buried at sea according to Islamic law because no country was willing or able to take his body for burial on land, senior Defense officials said.
"When there is no land alternative, Islamic law dictates that the body be buried within 24 hours, and that was the basis," one official said. "
A second senior Defense official said there was no country willing or able to accept the body for burial, and U.S. forces "took pains to observe Muslim law."
No Proof: Not sure how much more you need
No Capture: They killed him and took his body
No Americans Inujured in this so called incident: SEALS are fucking awesome.
"so called incident"? Something happened in Abbotabad. There are locals, witnesses, etc...here's some info from CBS: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/05/ ... 8843.shtml
They torched the compound: I think they destroyed the helicopter? They also recovered quite a bit from the compound.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/0 ... tml?hpt=T1
I understand questioning things...but at some point you have to believe something
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
And I am no expert on these things, but I think they would have got the blessing of most of the world to go in.
politicians can bury us Alive before we can spell the first letter of word Alive..
"..That's One Happy Fuckin Ghost.."
“..That came up on the Pillow Case...This is for the Greek, With Our Apologies.....”
Countries like Pakistan and Afghanistan expereince wrath of terrorism first hand and they have been for the last 20 plus years. Way Way before 9/11.
Montreal 03, 05
Kitchener 03
Ottawa 05
New Jersey 06
Chicago 07
Washington DC 08
NYC 08
EDDIE 08
How many civilians has the US killed just in Pakistan alone? Many many thousands, probably more than the amount of people who died on 9/11. But in reality, one innocent life is too much.
So based on this alone, could the US ever really be justified in it's actions? We have America, a country breaking law after law, human right violations after another.
I'm curious, when will it be justified for another country to come and invade America? Saving the world from all of her evils? Also keeping in mind that it was American Policy that created Bin Laden.
Osama was not the problem? He was a HUGE part of the problem. Without him 9/11 never occurs. His death does not fix everything, but it helps.
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While far from perfect, the US is not the evil empire you describe. Many of the human rights violations you speak of are the result of individual behavior. What would be the basis for an invasion? If I knew the reason then I could comment. Would Iraq have a good reason for doing so after we invaded their country? Perhaps.
I do not mean in any way shape or form to belittle the loss of life. The middle east and western Asia very complicated political and religious issues. Navigating those waters in a way that makes everyone happy is an impossible task.
I don't think it's an impossible task. Not when we understand that just about everyone wants the same thing in the end. To be happy, free and live.
American policy does not allow that to. The whole system is designed for America to be on top and everyone under it. How is that not an evil empire, Add to the constant expansions and base buildings.
I was not speaking about individual behavior, rather government/system behavior. Again read the stories, look at the stats.
American policy supports other corrupt governments and regimes.
So let's see, we have a country (America), that invades other countries going against international law, a country that detains people without trial (Gitmo and other 'secret' prisons) , a country that supports other corrupt governments (Israel, Saudis)
Sounds like an evil empire to me.
So to blame to Pakistan is just naive and pretty stupid
Like I said before Osamas death does not do anything to stop terror. You in America might think it does but then again you live in a Bubble. You have no idea what your politician and businessmen go around doing in the world. And unless the American international policy changes, acts of terror will keep on happening and new Osamas will be get born in every generation.
Montreal 03, 05
Kitchener 03
Ottawa 05
New Jersey 06
Chicago 07
Washington DC 08
NYC 08
EDDIE 08
U.S.torture is a good example of human rights violations. That wasn't rogue individuals, but instead got the green light from the top.
So is it confirmed that bin laden did not have any control or input in al quada anymore?
I agree that it might not do much (killing bin laden), but one of the questions I asked earlier either got buried or maybe nobody knows the answer -- What happens/happened to bin ladens fortunes? were they locked out years ago (i'm not sure)..were they passed on to his family?
I always figured he was a successful terrorist because of his inheritance and connections. I agree new osamas will be born into every generation (especially if these guys are having 50 fucking kids!), but will they have the same resources??
The war in Afghanistan is more than just about 'Terror',
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/14/world ... erals.html
For Bin Laden to hide out in Pakistan in such close proximity to the capital and home of Pakistan's military- as he was for over a year- it is likely he had some type of support system. Whether the Pakistani government or official Pakistani institutions had a role is speculation. So "blaming" Pakistan wouldn't be the right term...but figuring out as to why he was there protected is a legitiamate question.
I think that's where you are wrong....