Religious Beliefs

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  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    I believe in God but I have just as much belief in us, in humanity, in love.

    I have trouble wrapping my thoughts around the 'don't pray for us'....
    an atheist's feeling, their request.

    If a believer is filled with love, the motive behind prayer is love,
    the prayer is positive thought,
    why would someone not want those words, that positive gesture?

    An atheist can think the believer disillusioned, ridiculous, wrong to believe
    but why discount the loving gesture?

    Is it because the atheist assumes all prayer directed at non believers is condescending?
    logically this could not be the case...the atheist would be discounting the love for humanity
    that most people feel.

    Is it is based on the fact that in addition to not believing,
    they actually have taken it a step further and they dislike prayer, they dislike believers?

    Is it because they have formed a prejudice towards believers
    and in turn closed their heart and mind to the love they have to offer....
    because it is God's love?

    Love is Love and we need more of it.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    pandora wrote:
    Is it is based on the fact that in addition to not believing,
    they actually have taken it a step further and they dislike prayer, they dislike believers?

    Is it because they have formed a prejudice towards believers
    and in turn closed their heart and mind to the love they have to offer....
    because it is God's love?

    Why should this be taken as an attack on believers? Atheists do not believe in the power of prayers to a god that, for them, is a figment of one's imagination. Nothing to do with not liking 'believers', nothing to do with prejudice towards 'believers' That is a bit of a victim mentality here - oh woe is me type attitude. And certainly nothing to to about a closed heart and mind (now that is condescending). A theist praying for someone or something is THEIR way of coping with a situation. There are numerous ways of showing love/humanity. Instead of prayer (with all it's implications) what is wrong with just positive thoughts? Why bring god in this? You believe in god's love, others believe in plain ol' love/humanity so prayers really don't mean anything. It's been discussed a few pages back.
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    pandora wrote:
    I believe in God but I have just as much belief in us, in humanity, in love.

    I have trouble wrapping my thoughts around the 'don't pray for us'....
    an atheist's feeling, their request.

    If a believer is filled with love, the motive behind prayer is love,
    the prayer is positive thought,
    why would someone not want those words, that positive gesture?

    An atheist can think the believer disillusioned, ridiculous, wrong to believe
    but why discount the loving gesture?

    Is it because the atheist assumes all prayer directed at non believers is condescending?
    logically this could not be the case...the atheist would be discounting the love for humanity
    that most people feel.

    Is it is based on the fact that in addition to not believing,
    they actually have taken it a step further and they dislike prayer, they dislike believers?

    Is it because they have formed a prejudice towards believers
    and in turn closed their heart and mind to the love they have to offer....
    because it is God's love?

    Love is Love and we need more of it.

    I see what you're saying, Pandora, but I think it's important to distinguish between the two different, as I see it, types of "I'm praying for you" sentiments.

    1) saying "I'm praying for you and your family in this time of sorrow/need/loss/whatever" is the same as saying "I'm thinking of you", just in a theist's terminology. To me there's nothing wrong with that at all, no matter what your faith.
    2) saying "I'm praying for your soul" or something of the like is something different altogether. It implies that I, as an agnostic or someone else as an athiest, is not complete without your chosen belief system.

    I wish to stress here that I don't believe you commit #2.

    I think you jumped a few steps in taking it to prejudice from one group to another. I simply don't think that's true in most cases.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • Hugh Freaking Dillon
    Hugh Freaking Dillon Posts: 14,010
    redrock wrote:
    And certainly nothing to to about a closed heart and mind (now that is condescending)..

    to be fair, redrock, Pandora is not saying here you are close minded or hearted. She is, I think, merely saying you are not accepting of the sentiment of love all because of the linguistics involved. that is all.
    Gimli 1993
    Fargo 2003
    Winnipeg 2005
    Winnipeg 2011
    St. Paul 2014
  • blondieblue227
    blondieblue227 Va, USA Posts: 4,509
    i wouldn't say i hate believers. whatever gets you thru you know. but i guess i may look down on believers at times because i think religion is silly. whatever gets you thru. in my opinion religion isn't all silly/bad, there's good/make sense/good qualities about it too. to me thou religion is just another extension of society. half the time i'm fed up with society, so...
    *~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited March 2011
    Paul David wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    And certainly nothing to to about a closed heart and mind (now that is condescending)..

    to be fair, redrock, Pandora is not saying here you are close minded or hearted. She is, I think, merely saying you are not accepting of the sentiment of love all because of the linguistics involved. that is all.

    I take her words as they are said. Questioning if one is prejudice, one has closed their heart to what they have offer because they are not interested. You may want to call it linguistics but I see her post putting the ball straight into the atheists court. To me, as an atheist, praying (and telling an atheist you will pray for him) is a form of 'love' only the theist finds solace in. To me, god's love doesn't exist, so a prayer is nothing. A human sentiment, that is not tied to god is meaningful. Pandora may call a prayer 'a loving gesture', I call it an 'empty gesture' as it has no meaning (or even maybe a 'selfish gesture' as it may have only meaning for the theist).

    As I said in my post, why insist on saying 'I'm praying for you' when it is directed at an atheist? It's not just words, it's also the belief behind it. Why not simply 'positive thoughts, 'thinking of you', etc. No god, just human sentiment.

    Would you offer meat to a vegetarian and say their are prejudice against omnivores and not 'accepting' when they don't want it? After all, food it food - isn't it? All they may want to do is share their food.
    Why even question if an atheist is prejudice, hateful against believers, close hearted or closed minded? Assuming if we don't want 'god's love', which we don't believe in, we are rejecting love? I find that a bit much, really.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • blondieblue227
    blondieblue227 Va, USA Posts: 4,509
    it's a matter of context for me. if i'm having a convo with somebody who's religious and i feel like they're aren't approving and then i hear "i'll pray for you", that makes me angry. i agree. i much rather hear "you are in my thoughts."
    *~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*

  • Release_Me
    Release_Me Posts: 46
    I'm not in your shoes so I don't know how an atheist would feel if someone says he's praying for you, but I think the important thing is the thought behind it. Just the fact that the person is taking out time to specifically pray for you, shows that he cares. I'm a Muslim, so if a Hindu says he'll pray to his bhagwan for me, I would appreciate the sentiment, even though the Hindu beliefs and concept of God is far removed from what I believe in.

    I think it's being a bit greedy if you expect others to show their love AND do it in a manner that you prefer. Just a thought :)
  • blondieblue227
    blondieblue227 Va, USA Posts: 4,509
    but it touches on what i said before on this chat. where's the accountability? why does your god have to be involved and the cause for everything? people have good in them, so why can't i be in YOUR thoughts? why drag god into everything?
    oh something bad happened. it was gods will.
    something good happened. praise be to god.

    it's annoying to me.
    *~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*

  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    edited March 2011
    redrock said...
    as an atheist, praying (and telling an atheist you will pray for him) is a form of 'love' only the theist finds solace in. To me, god's love doesn't exist, so a prayer is nothing. A human sentiment, that is not tied to god is meaningful. Pandora may call a prayer 'a loving gesture', I call it an 'empty gesture' as it has no meaning (or even maybe a 'selfish gesture' as it may have only meaning for the theist).

    You are actually judging the love that is sent to you...
    love is love

    You call it an empty gesture when you know it is meant to be a loving gesture,
    it may not mean the same to you but I think you can give the gesture
    the respect it deserves and the person too.

    I don't believe when a human being prays for another it is the least bit selfish,
    that is not the motivation in prayer. Opposite of that more like it.

    I'm sorry I can not see the insult in a believer saying prayers for an atheist just the contrary
    I think it a put down to the love that is being sent
    when someone will not graciously accept the loving gesture.

    As far as a vegetarian... I would not expect someone to eat meat but they wouldn't expect me not to serve it either. They would graciously ignore the meat not leave the table.
    Way too much good conversation and love at that table.

    Paul David thank you for your understanding.

    I very much agree with Release_ me ....his comment
    "I think it's being a bit greedy if you expect others to show their love AND do it in a manner that you prefer. Just a thought"

    My hope is to see a bridge to the differences,
    to remember we are all people who want to love and understand each other.
    It matters not what religion, no religion, or if you call yourself spiritual as I do...not knowing anything of religion not following a religion but believe in a higher power...
    these differences don't matter it is all about love and acceptance for each other.
    Post edited by pandora on
  • Release_Me
    Release_Me Posts: 46
    blondieblue227 wrote:
    but it touches on what i said before on this chat. where's the accountability? why does your god have to be involved and the cause for everything? people have good in them, so why can't i be in YOUR thoughts? why drag god into everything?
    oh something bad happened. it was gods will.
    something good happened. praise be to god.

    it's annoying to me.

    I don't see how someone saying he'll pray for you could be such a big deal. It's just their way of showing that they care. Mine might be giving a big hug, but would it be right if someone pushes me away saying they don't like being hugged? It's just a statement, the person making it isn't thinking of God when he said it, he's thinking of you. I personally feel that should be enough.

    Just as a believer shouldn't be annoyed by an atheist's lack of belief, an atheist shouldn't be annoyed by a believer's strength of it.
  • blondieblue227
    blondieblue227 Va, USA Posts: 4,509
    edited March 2011
    i must admit it depends on what kind of mood i'm in that day. sometimes 'i'll pray for you' doesn't bother me, sometimes it does. and i've said before it also depends on the context.

    i don't care if you're a believer or not. but why is your god required in praying for me? can't you alone just send me positive thoughts? why do you need 'help'?
    Post edited by blondieblue227 on
    *~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    pandora wrote:
    You call it an empty gesture when you know it is meant to be a loving gesture,

    I don't believe when a human being prays for another it is the least bit selfish,
    that is not the motivation in prayer. Opposite of that more like it.

    For me, it's an empty gesture because it doesn't mean anything to me. If I offer something to someone knowing it's 'not for them', the gesture is empty and selfish as I am doing this for myself - what I think is a loving gesture, not what the recipient of this gesture thinks. God is behind a prayer for theists... enough said about motivation.
    pandora wrote:
    As far as a vegetarian... I would not expect someone to eat meat but they wouldn't expect me not to serve it either. They would graciously ignore the meat not leave the table.
    .

    When I have vegetarian friends over, I first find out if having meat on the table offends them if they are 'new' friends (yep... it does to a lot). If it does I would NEVER even think of serving meat (with a vegetarian option). Even if it doesn't, I am inviting people over to share food and a lovely evening, I am sensitive to their likes and dislikes. If I know someone does not eat meat, I don't serve it, even if I REALLY want a nice juicy steak. My 'love' is reflected in how I act with them, ie. they don't eat meat, I won't be rude in serving meat. Same with prayer - I don't want a prayer, don't be rude and pray for me or pray for 'god' to help me through whatever hard times I'm going through. If you 'need' to pray for a non believer, do it in privacy without broadcasting it. Just like if you feel you really need to eat meat when you have vegetarian friends over for dinner, have your steak at lunch and don't offend them by splashing it out on the table when they are there.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    Release_Me wrote:
    Mine might be giving a big hug, but would it be right if someone pushes me away saying they don't like being hugged?
    If you knew this person didn't want to be hugged, you would be wrong in still doing so. If you didn't know and this person pushes you away saying he/she didn't liked to be hugged, he/she would be perfectly right in doing so. If you still insisted in hugging after that, you would be wrong. Even if you say it's your way of showing love. It's not their way of receiving it and it shouldn't be 'forced' upon them. You and that person will most probably have other common ways of showing/understanding love (handshake? Smile? A meaningful exchange of words?) Not difficult to understand, really.
  • pandora
    pandora Posts: 21,855
    redrock wrote:
    pandora wrote:
    You call it an empty gesture when you know it is meant to be a loving gesture,

    I don't believe when a human being prays for another it is the least bit selfish,
    that is not the motivation in prayer. Opposite of that more like it.

    For me, it's an empty gesture because it doesn't mean anything to me. If I offer something to someone knowing it's 'not for them', the gesture is empty and selfish as I am doing this for myself - what I think is a loving gesture, not what the recipient of this gesture thinks. God is behind a prayer for theists... enough said about motivation.
    pandora wrote:
    As far as a vegetarian... I would not expect someone to eat meat but they wouldn't expect me not to serve it either. They would graciously ignore the meat not leave the table.
    .

    When I have vegetarian friends over, I first find out if having meat on the table offends them if they are 'new' friends (yep... it does to a lot). If it does I would NEVER even think of serving meat (with a vegetarian option). Even if it doesn't, I am inviting people over to share food and a lovely evening, I am sensitive to their likes and dislikes. If I know someone does not eat meat, I don't serve it, even if I REALLY want a nice juicy steak. My 'love' is reflected in how I act with them, ie. they don't eat meat, I won't be rude in serving meat. Same with prayer - I don't want a prayer, don't be rude and pray for me or pray for 'god' to help me through whatever hard times I'm going through. If you 'need' to pray for a non believer, do it in privacy without broadcasting it. Just like if you feel you really need to eat meat when you have vegetarian friends over for dinner, have your steak at lunch and don't offend them by splashing it out on the table when they are there.
    I serve meat along with a veggie option because I am not only serving a vegetarian...
    there are many people at my table and if someone decides to say grace...
    I will respect them and their religion and their prayer
    just a I would expect everyone at the table to do so also, graciously.

    And I am sorry you will not except loving gestures from the heart because you can not and will not.
    Love is love redrock .... like Eddie sings
    'I used to try and kill love, it was the highest sin'
    most especially because its not just exactly the way you want it....
    love a 2way street and should be appreciated and not shunned.
  • Release_Me
    Release_Me Posts: 46
    redrock wrote:
    Release_Me wrote:
    Mine might be giving a big hug, but would it be right if someone pushes me away saying they don't like being hugged?
    If you knew this person didn't want to be hugged, you would be wrong in still doing so. If you didn't know and this person pushes you away saying he/she didn't liked to be hugged, he/she would be perfectly right in doing so. If you still insisted in hugging after that, you would be wrong. Even if you say it's your way of showing love. It's not their way of receiving it and it shouldn't be 'forced' upon them. You and that person will most probably have other common ways of showing/understanding love (handshake? Smile? A meaningful exchange of words?) Not difficult to understand, really.

    If I knew he didn't like being hugged, I wouldn't hug him in the first place, period. I'm assuming in this scenario that the person saying 'I'll pray for you' said it as he would for anyone else, without considering the beliefs of the other person. The other person should appreciate the sentiment and politely tell him that he would prefer if he didn't use the word prayer, if it really bugs him that much. After that, if the person keeps saying 'I'll pray for for you' despite knowing that it irks the other person, then he isn't saying it with any degree of honesty, he just wants to annoy him. Pretty simple.
  • blondieblue227
    blondieblue227 Va, USA Posts: 4,509
    Release_Me wrote:
    The other person should appreciate the sentiment and politely tell him that he would prefer if he didn't use the word prayer, if it really bugs him that much. After that, if the person keeps saying 'I'll pray for for you' despite knowing that it irks the other person, then he isn't saying it with any degree of honesty, he just wants to annoy him. Pretty simple.

    exactly. i've had that happen to me. it's condescending and judgmental.
    *~Pearl Jam will be blasted from speakers until morale improves~*

  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    pandora wrote:
    I serve meat along with a veggie option because I am not only serving a vegetarian...

    I find common ground amongst all my guests and go with that.
    pandora wrote:

    And I am sorry you will not except loving gestures from the heart because you can not and will not..

    :roll: Yeah.... I guess I'm a cold bitch, closed mind and closed heart.... No need to feel sorry for me (condescending?) I've got plenty of love in my life.
    pandora wrote:
    like Eddie sings
    'I used to try and kill love, it was the highest sin'
    most especially because its not just exactly the way you want it....
    love a 2way street and should be appreciated and not shunned.

    Inside Job lyrics.. and?
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited March 2011
    Release_Me wrote:
    The other person should appreciate the sentiment and politely tell him that he would prefer if he didn't use the word prayer, if it really bugs him that much. After that, if the person keeps saying 'I'll pray for for you' despite knowing that it irks the other person, then he isn't saying it with any degree of honesty, he just wants to annoy him. Pretty simple.

    Exactly. Not necessary to go on great discourses about not accepting love, having a closed mind/heart, feeling sorry for that person etc.

    If that person does not reciprocate that kind of 'love', then no need to find negative reasons/traits to try to explain to yourself why shouldn't someone want this 'marvellous' thing that you want to give.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • Release_Me
    Release_Me Posts: 46
    blondieblue227 wrote:
    Release_Me wrote:
    The other person should appreciate the sentiment and politely tell him that he would prefer if he didn't use the word prayer, if it really bugs him that much. After that, if the person keeps saying 'I'll pray for for you' despite knowing that it irks the other person, then he isn't saying it with any degree of honesty, he just wants to annoy him. Pretty simple.

    exactly. i've had that happen to me. it's condescending and judgmental.

    In that case, I suggest you not waste your time with such people because they're just trying to get under your skin.

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