Why isn't abortion considered murder?

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  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    HeidiJam wrote:
    _ wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Its complete, all those organs are there, there developing and growing. The fetus is dependant of the mother, yes, but just like we depend on oxygen to live, they are a product of their environment, why does that disqualify them from being human?

    Huh?? :?
    All the genetic information is there for them to develop,

    well, that's different from the organs being "there." If they are there, that means they actually exist in 3d reality, right?

    This is so entertaining... you guys are so emotional about all this and it leads to you making pejorative statements and statements that are just not true.

    I think EVERYONE can agree that abortion should be the last choice. It shouldn't be something that is swept under the rug in your mental palace.

    But, we are taking a step back if we think that the government should get involved. Education, enlightenment, and evolution will lead us to a day where no one gets abortions.

    Legislation is icky.
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • arq
    arq Posts: 8,101
    HeidiJam wrote:
    All the genetic information is there for them to develop,

    an alphabet soup is not a book...
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    he still stands wrote:
    Scientifically... life begins when cells begin dividing... just a few hours (maybe a day or two?) after conception.
    Conception, to me, is the first moment of that entity's life. That is when the process of a human begins. It's at the bottom of that stairwell, the very first step. That cluster of cells is the most minuscule organization of human construct. Whether or not you agree that cluster should go on to be a human life is an issue of morality, not an issue of science, not a debate of facts, it is morality. Hour 22 or Week 22, those cells will inevitably form a complete human (if void of complications). The issue in abortion is whether or not you will accept that inevitability.
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited March 2011
    HeidiJam wrote:
    All the genetic information is there for them to develop,
    Potentially... develop. It would seem nature is the main 'murderer' as about 70% of fertilised eggs (the start of life for some people) never end up developing into a being.
    Post edited by redrock on
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    arq wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    All the genetic information is there for them to develop,

    an alphabet soup is not a book...
    I didn't know genetic information need to be interpreted by someone for it to be human???
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    HeidiJam wrote:
    he still stands wrote:
    Scientifically... life begins when cells begin dividing... just a few hours (maybe a day or two?) after conception.
    Conception, to me, is the first moment of that entity's life. That is when the process of a human begins. It's at the bottom of that stairwell, the very first step. That cluster of cells is the most minuscule organization of human construct. Whether or not you agree that cluster should go on to be a human life is an issue of morality, not an issue of science, not a debate of facts, it is morality. Hour 22 or Week 22, those cells will inevitably form a complete human (if void of complications). The issue in abortion is whether or not you will accept that inevitability.

    sorry, but if you think this is not an issue of science or facts but of morality... then me and you discussing this is like a chicken talking to a rhinocerous. The moral aspect is up to the individual and I'd rather not be preached or proselytized to.
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    redrock wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    All the genetic information is there for them to develop,
    Potentially... develop. It would seem nature is the main 'murderer' as about 70% of fertilised eggs (the start of life for some people) never end up developing into a being.
    haha... can't you see how horribly misguided it is to take the opposite approach and say "its ok to destroy things we don't understand"? That's classic small mindedness.

    Tell me, when is the exact moment a human fetus becomes a human such that you are no longer OK with killing it? Is it the moment it starts to look like a human to you? Do you honestly think you can make this call? There's no science to support it. You're using a very primitive standard - appearance - and the stakes are high. How, can you be so sure you're right?
  • arq
    arq Posts: 8,101
    HeidiJam wrote:
    arq wrote:
    I didn't know genetic information need to be interpreted by someone for it to be human???

    Well could be human but is not a person until it develops.
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
  • Blockhead
    Blockhead Posts: 1,538
    arq wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    arq wrote:
    I didn't know genetic information need to be interpreted by someone for it to be human???

    Well could be human but is not a person until it develops.
    Develops from what to what, is it ok to kill a mentally challenged person since they are not fully developed???
  • arq
    arq Posts: 8,101
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Develops from what to what, is it ok to kill a mentally challenged person since they are not fully developed???

    You're talking about 2 separate issues here.
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    HeidiJam wrote:
    arq wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    All the genetic information is there for them to develop,

    an alphabet soup is not a book...
    I didn't know genetic information need to be interpreted by someone for it to be human???

    No, nobody ever said its not human, but just as much as those letters in the soup need an author, that fetus need its mother. That's why so many here feel that it is a decision of the mother as to how to deal with something that is an extension of HER body. It is an EXTENSION of her body.
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    edited March 2011
    HeidiJam wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    All the genetic information is there for them to develop,
    Potentially... develop. It would seem nature is the main 'murderer' as about 70% of fertilised eggs (the start of life for some people) never end up developing into a being.
    haha... can't you see how horribly misguided it is to take the opposite approach and say "its ok to destroy things we don't understand"? That's classic small mindedness.

    Tell me, when is the exact moment a human fetus becomes a human such that you are no longer OK with killing it? Is it the moment it starts to look like a human to you? Do you honestly think you can make this call? There's no science to support it. You're using a very primitive standard - appearance - and the stakes are high. How, can you be so sure you're right?

    Ummmm.... where did I say 'it's OK to destroy things we don't understand'? I really don't get your reply - totally out of sync with what I said. Weird tirade there....

    An embryo/fetus of any species which reproduce via live birth or that require external processes to be able to develop (such as eggs being kept at certain temperatures, etc) becomes one of their species when they are independently viable. Crack a fertilised egg to early, the chick is dead. A human fetus removed too early from the womb dies. Nothing about appearance here...
    Post edited by redrock on
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Develops from what to what, is it ok to kill a mentally challenged person since they are not fully developed???
    :roll: :roll:
  • he still stands
    he still stands Posts: 2,835
    summary of this thread:

    1) Heidi thinks that life begins at conception, and that the terms "life" and "human" are interchangeable.
    2) Most people here disagree with that, except the most fundamentalist religiosos.
    3) Everyone here needs to take a class in epistemology and learn the difference between "belief," "fact," and "knowledge." That'll clear up most of the confusion in regards to communication.
    4) Let's all have a hug. :mrgreen:
    Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
  • JonnyPistachio
    JonnyPistachio Florida Posts: 10,219
    redrock wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Develops from what to what, is it ok to kill a mentally challenged person since they are not fully developed???
    :roll: :roll:

    Good God, the anaology parade is a scary, scary thing in here..
    Pick up my debut novel here on amazon: Jonny Bails Floatin (in paperback) (also available on Kindle for $2.99)
  • redrock
    redrock Posts: 18,341
    JonnyPistachio wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    HeidiJam wrote:
    Develops from what to what, is it ok to kill a mentally challenged person since they are not fully developed???
    :roll: :roll:

    Good God, the anaology parade is a scary, scary thing in here..
    Yep... first turtles, now the disabled.... :roll:
  • arq
    arq Posts: 8,101
    redrock wrote:
    Yep... first turtles, now the disabled.... :roll:

    and now disabled turtles? when this is going to stop!
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
  • Digital Twilight
    Digital Twilight Posts: 5,642
    arq wrote:
    redrock wrote:
    Yep... first turtles, now the disabled.... :roll:

    and now disabled turtles? when this is going to stop!

    disabled-turtle.jpg

    Poor little guy. Has to use a trolly to get around :(



    Leave the disbaled turtles alone, they have rights too!
  • arq
    arq Posts: 8,101
    Digital Twilight wrote:
    Leave the disbaled turtles alone, they have rights too!

    That is a really sad image :(
    "The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it"
    Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
  • Digital Twilight
    Digital Twilight Posts: 5,642
    arq wrote:
    Digital Twilight wrote:
    Leave the disbaled turtles alone, they have rights too!

    That is a really sad image :(

    Don't worry, she found love in the end :D

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... -love.html

    Some more turtles.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8473968.stm

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