My child was a human the moment my wife told me we were going to have a baby. I can't ever fathom intentionally aborting her or her younger sister.
However, it is no more my right to tell a woman/couple she can't have an abortion any more than it's my right to tell someone they have to quit smoking, or can't get a tattoo, or anything else that is hers, and HERS ALONE.
I don't agree with abortion. But I agree with it being their own choice.
Heidi, you'd do a lot better if you'd stop calling people stupid and using that ridiculous turtle story.
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I think it's the double-standards that are the problem. For instance, you go on and on about personal responsibility, yet at the same time want to limit people's options for taking responsibility.
Once a pregnancy has occurred, whether or not it is the result of a lack of personal responsibility to begin with, often times the most RESPONSIBLE thing to do at this point is to have an abortion - especially by your definition of responsibility being all about not bringing children into the world without a certain amount of money. And yet you want to FORCE pregnant women to have children.
Conception, to me, is the first moment of that entity's life. That is when the process of a human begins. It's at the bottom of that stairwell, the very first step. That cluster of cells is the most minuscule organization of human construct. Whether or not you agree that cluster should go on to be a human life is an issue of morality, not an issue of science, not a debate of facts, it is morality. Hour 22 or Week 22, those cells will inevitably form a complete human (if void of complications). The issue in abortion is whether or not you will accept that inevitability.
So what does your morality tell you about embryo banks? Let's say you and your wife are having trouble getting pregnant, so you go to one of those fertility clinics where they take some of your wife's eggs & put them together with some of your sperm and make a whole bunch of little embryos. My understanding is that they never implant ALL of them into the woman at the same time, so there are always some that are saved in case they need a second or third try at it. If you & your wife did this and got pregnant on the first try, do you believe you & your wife have a moral obligation to accept the inevitability that these embryos were meant to become people and have your wife incubate each of them into babies - even if it means, say, 15 pregnancies & 15 kids?
Or, more importantly, do you believe your wife should be FORCED to incubate 15 pregnancies to create 15 babies because of SOMEONE ELSE'S morality?
Conception, to me, is the first moment of that entity's life. That is when the process of a human begins. It's at the bottom of that stairwell, the very first step. That cluster of cells is the most minuscule organization of human construct. Whether or not you agree that cluster should go on to be a human life is an issue of morality, not an issue of science, not a debate of facts, it is morality. Hour 22 or Week 22, those cells will inevitably form a complete human (if void of complications). The issue in abortion is whether or not you will accept that inevitability.
The very first step is a sperm fertilizing an egg. But not all fertilized eggs become embryo's, so your desperate attempt to win this debate fails yet again.
And for the record, I don't believe that you genuinely care about this issue. I think you actually couldn't give a shit about what some woman next door does with her body, and that you're really only interested in abusing and bellitling people from your imaginary golden throne of perfection in internet land. And whatever your motivation is, it certainly isn't any love of humanity.
But that's just my take on it.
Go ahead and continue heaping criticism and abuse on everyone less priveleged than yourself...
Also, since we're sharing abortion experiences... I had an abortion. It wasn't "used for contraception". It wasn't traumatic. It wasn't an irresponsible choice. It was not a selfish choice. It wasn't the easy solution. It wasn't a decision I made lightly. It was a loving decision, made with my heart. It was a good decision, the right decision, the decision that was best for everyone involved - especially my potential child. I do not feel guilty. And I do not regret my abortion. In fact, research shows that MOST women feel relief, not regret, when they have an abortion.
Who are you to say that ending your childs life was the best decision for them. Any life no matter how bad, is much much better than never existing.
I just realized I read the first part of your post wrong before. WHO am I to say what was best for my potential child? I'm his/her potential mother, that's who! Who are YOU to say what's best for MY potential child??
Glasgow, Scotland. It's cold outside. I'm thinking about a problem. One group of people trying to force their beliefs on others, based on religion. And it seems as though we're regressing.
Above, a helicopter flies by. If it continues on its course, it will shortly be over Ireland, where as of this writing, the powers that be are deciding if a 14-year-old girl who was raped by the father of one of her friends should be allowed to leave for Britain to obtain an abortion. She's been ordered not to leave the country for nine months. Fourteen years old. Raped. The issue of an unborn fetus takes on more importance than the fact that the rapist walks free.
Extreme, but this is a place where the church influences the government. And when I think of the movements concerning abortion in the United States, it definitely seems as though we're regressing.
"My body's nobody's body but mine...
You run your own body, let me run mine."
At the University of San Diego a few years ago, pro-lifers gathered, while pro-choicers chanted the above. Sides clashed and tension ran high. A banner equating pro-choice ideology with Nazism and Hitler was displayed. "Baby Killers," a little red stop sign said -- a sign held by a well-dressed 3-year-old who sat atop the shoulders of his upper-middle class father. The kid looked confused and frightened. The ominous presence of armed police on horseback would be enough to upset anyone.
And I wondered how this child got pulled into this? I wondered how any of us got pulled into this. The fact is that those people handing down decisions on the abortion issue are not the ones who will have to live or die by it.
Ten years old. That's the age my child would have been. And I would not be here in Glasgow. I wouldn't be in this band or traveling. And I wouldn't have seen the liberal ways in which other countries we have visited deal with this issue. I wouldn't have been asked to write this piece. The fact that I've been through it on all levels is the only reason I accepted.
Perhaps I'll have a child in the future, when I can provide properly. Who knows. But as individuals in this "free" country, we must have the right to choose when that time is right. A couple -- perhaps 15 or 16 years old, maybe 10 years older -- is faced with an unwanted pregnancy; it makes no difference if there is no means of support. They're questioning whether they can provide a proper climate in which to raise a child. A healthy question for both them and society itself. Yeah, there are programs to assist. Welfare and health programs that are constant victims of cutbacks. The child can sit in severely overcrowded classrooms and be taught by underpaid teachers.
A right to a healthy future should be the consideration.
Operation Rescue? The point being the rescue of a nonentity, a zygote. Perhaps the rescue of a young woman in crisis would be more in order. Instead, combat lines are drawn at clinics, and women must be escorted through trenches, which only adds to their trauma. This is not a game. This is not a religious pep rally. This is a woman's future. Roe vs. Wade was decided 19 years ago and the fact that a well-organized group has come close to overturning it is raw proof that we do live in a democracy. But also the reason that any opposition must be equally as vocal. You go to school in Normal, Illinois? Collegetown, U.S.A.? Shout it out. There are people wary of the strength that young voters possess. Prove them right. Decide on the issues and vote -- male or female -- for this is not just a women's issue. It's human rights. If it were a man's body and it was his destiny we were deciding there would be no issue. Not in today's male dominated society.
Glasgow, Scotland. It's cold outside. I'm thinking about a problem. One group of people trying to force their beliefs on others, based on religion. And it seems as though we're regressing.
Above, a helicopter flies by. If it continues on its course, it will shortly be over Ireland, where as of this writing, the powers that be are deciding if a 14-year-old girl who was raped by the father of one of her friends should be allowed to leave for Britain to obtain an abortion. She's been ordered not to leave the country for nine months. Fourteen years old. Raped. The issue of an unborn fetus takes on more importance than the fact that the rapist walks free.
Extreme, but this is a place where the church influences the government. And when I think of the movements concerning abortion in the United States, it definitely seems as though we're regressing.
"My body's nobody's body but mine...
You run your own body, let me run mine."
At the University of San Diego a few years ago, pro-lifers gathered, while pro-choicers chanted the above. Sides clashed and tension ran high. A banner equating pro-choice ideology with Nazism and Hitler was displayed. "Baby Killers," a little red stop sign said -- a sign held by a well-dressed 3-year-old who sat atop the shoulders of his upper-middle class father. The kid looked confused and frightened. The ominous presence of armed police on horseback would be enough to upset anyone.
And I wondered how this child got pulled into this? I wondered how any of us got pulled into this. The fact is that those people handing down decisions on the abortion issue are not the ones who will have to live or die by it.
Ten years old. That's the age my child would have been. And I would not be here in Glasgow. I wouldn't be in this band or traveling. And I wouldn't have seen the liberal ways in which other countries we have visited deal with this issue. I wouldn't have been asked to write this piece. The fact that I've been through it on all levels is the only reason I accepted.
Perhaps I'll have a child in the future, when I can provide properly. Who knows. But as individuals in this "free" country, we must have the right to choose when that time is right. A couple -- perhaps 15 or 16 years old, maybe 10 years older -- is faced with an unwanted pregnancy; it makes no difference if there is no means of support. They're questioning whether they can provide a proper climate in which to raise a child. A healthy question for both them and society itself. Yeah, there are programs to assist. Welfare and health programs that are constant victims of cutbacks. The child can sit in severely overcrowded classrooms and be taught by underpaid teachers.
A right to a healthy future should be the consideration.
Operation Rescue? The point being the rescue of a nonentity, a zygote. Perhaps the rescue of a young woman in crisis would be more in order. Instead, combat lines are drawn at clinics, and women must be escorted through trenches, which only adds to their trauma. This is not a game. This is not a religious pep rally. This is a woman's future. Roe vs. Wade was decided 19 years ago and the fact that a well-organized group has come close to overturning it is raw proof that we do live in a democracy. But also the reason that any opposition must be equally as vocal. You go to school in Normal, Illinois? Collegetown, U.S.A.? Shout it out. There are people wary of the strength that young voters possess. Prove them right. Decide on the issues and vote -- male or female -- for this is not just a women's issue. It's human rights. If it were a man's body and it was his destiny we were deciding there would be no issue. Not in today's male dominated society.
You know, I have to give Heidi a lot of credit. I think he's the first poster in the history of the train who has been able to more or less bring us all together on the issue of abortion. I'm impressed!
Nice. I've not seen that before...to my shame :oops:
Byrnzie! How can you not have seen this before?! :shock: This is the best Porch ever.
Hmm...maybe you were just too busy hi jacking that plane and running from the FBI.
There's at least 5 billion too many people in this world as it is.
Abortion sucks and I'm not sure if it was mine, I'd approve, but we all die. Might as well kill me before I get my first glimpse of the world rather than in a war or something.
That said, consider ourselves lucky we've made it this far..
Byrnzie! How can you not have seen this before?! :shock: This is the best Porch ever.
Hmm...maybe you were just too busy hi jacking that plane and running from the FBI.
Byrnzie! How can you not have seen this before?! :shock: This is the best Porch ever.
Hmm...maybe you were just too busy hi jacking that plane and running from the FBI.
i'll dream a dream of you tonight
i'll see a picture of you in my head tonight
if i can't hear you, oh in real life
i'll make it up all my life
tonight i'll dream only of you
i got an old photograph
oh how they seem to last
these moments slip away
all the days so grey, grey...
seven years gone by now...(38 years gone by now)
oh still it's in my eyes
i'll walk away, walk away...
you're just about to miss the
best part of it all, of it all...
of it all, of it all...
for you my child that never was...I am sorry for your soul
I wonder if there is a place for all the aborted souls?
Do you count those fertilised eggs that have aborted naturally (ie approx 70% of potential pregnancies)?
When is one supposed to get a soul? At conception? At 40 days? Or 80 days? (Depending if you are male or female) At quickening?
Should one believe in the concept of 'soul' there are many 'theories' as to when acquiring soul happens.
those who believe in souls at conception,
those who don't believe at all.... there is a human soul
and those in the middle who somehow logically pick a time the soul enters the fetus.
Do I count fertilized eggs? yes.... I do...I count all souls ... as though they walk the earth.
I believe the soul is chosen at conception.
My baby had a soul... my point ... my belief....my tribute... to our shared loss.
As you say - your belief. For you any fertilised egg that has not come to a full term pregnancy with a live birth is a lost soul. Maybe that's the way you deal with something that, at the time seemed right but now you regret. Belief doesn't really have a place in science. Morals - perhaps/yes, religious beliefs - no. For the scientific/medical world decisions cannot be made on the basis of a religious concept.
he still stands... christian holy spirit thing a ma jigger. Consciousness is very different - it's your 'definition'. I think that the christians are the only one with an 'eternal soul' (a gift of god of some kind). Certainly Buddhism doesn't have that concept. It's more the concept of consciousness - just a continuation of awareness.
Comments
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/24927 ... 6841fa.jpg
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
However, it is no more my right to tell a woman/couple she can't have an abortion any more than it's my right to tell someone they have to quit smoking, or can't get a tattoo, or anything else that is hers, and HERS ALONE.
I don't agree with abortion. But I agree with it being their own choice.
Heidi, you'd do a lot better if you'd stop calling people stupid and using that ridiculous turtle story.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
A woman should be able to choose for herself instead of a law choosing for her
Heidijam, do you regard yourself as a good role model, and as someone who's thoughts and conduct deserve respect?
Or, more importantly, do you believe your wife should be FORCED to incubate 15 pregnancies to create 15 babies because of SOMEONE ELSE'S morality?
The very first step is a sperm fertilizing an egg. But not all fertilized eggs become embryo's, so your desperate attempt to win this debate fails yet again.
And for the record, I don't believe that you genuinely care about this issue. I think you actually couldn't give a shit about what some woman next door does with her body, and that you're really only interested in abusing and bellitling people from your imaginary golden throne of perfection in internet land. And whatever your motivation is, it certainly isn't any love of humanity.
But that's just my take on it.
Go ahead and continue heaping criticism and abuse on everyone less priveleged than yourself...
I just realized I read the first part of your post wrong before. WHO am I to say what was best for my potential child? I'm his/her potential mother, that's who! Who are YOU to say what's best for MY potential child??
I can think of about a million cases against him......
My favorite part starts at 2.35. Check it out:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYg5VrIlmn0
Above, a helicopter flies by. If it continues on its course, it will shortly be over Ireland, where as of this writing, the powers that be are deciding if a 14-year-old girl who was raped by the father of one of her friends should be allowed to leave for Britain to obtain an abortion. She's been ordered not to leave the country for nine months. Fourteen years old. Raped. The issue of an unborn fetus takes on more importance than the fact that the rapist walks free.
Extreme, but this is a place where the church influences the government. And when I think of the movements concerning abortion in the United States, it definitely seems as though we're regressing.
"My body's nobody's body but mine...
You run your own body, let me run mine."
At the University of San Diego a few years ago, pro-lifers gathered, while pro-choicers chanted the above. Sides clashed and tension ran high. A banner equating pro-choice ideology with Nazism and Hitler was displayed. "Baby Killers," a little red stop sign said -- a sign held by a well-dressed 3-year-old who sat atop the shoulders of his upper-middle class father. The kid looked confused and frightened. The ominous presence of armed police on horseback would be enough to upset anyone.
And I wondered how this child got pulled into this? I wondered how any of us got pulled into this. The fact is that those people handing down decisions on the abortion issue are not the ones who will have to live or die by it.
Ten years old. That's the age my child would have been. And I would not be here in Glasgow. I wouldn't be in this band or traveling. And I wouldn't have seen the liberal ways in which other countries we have visited deal with this issue. I wouldn't have been asked to write this piece. The fact that I've been through it on all levels is the only reason I accepted.
Perhaps I'll have a child in the future, when I can provide properly. Who knows. But as individuals in this "free" country, we must have the right to choose when that time is right. A couple -- perhaps 15 or 16 years old, maybe 10 years older -- is faced with an unwanted pregnancy; it makes no difference if there is no means of support. They're questioning whether they can provide a proper climate in which to raise a child. A healthy question for both them and society itself. Yeah, there are programs to assist. Welfare and health programs that are constant victims of cutbacks. The child can sit in severely overcrowded classrooms and be taught by underpaid teachers.
A right to a healthy future should be the consideration.
Operation Rescue? The point being the rescue of a nonentity, a zygote. Perhaps the rescue of a young woman in crisis would be more in order. Instead, combat lines are drawn at clinics, and women must be escorted through trenches, which only adds to their trauma. This is not a game. This is not a religious pep rally. This is a woman's future. Roe vs. Wade was decided 19 years ago and the fact that a well-organized group has come close to overturning it is raw proof that we do live in a democracy. But also the reason that any opposition must be equally as vocal. You go to school in Normal, Illinois? Collegetown, U.S.A.? Shout it out. There are people wary of the strength that young voters possess. Prove them right. Decide on the issues and vote -- male or female -- for this is not just a women's issue. It's human rights. If it were a man's body and it was his destiny we were deciding there would be no issue. Not in today's male dominated society.
-ev
http://www.freewebs.com/pearljamstudy/9 ... lamati.htm
Nice find :thumbup:
ps- oh... well yeah... now I see another post... Nice job to you too, Byrnzie!
Nice. I've not seen that before...to my shame :oops:
Byrnzie! How can you not have seen this before?! :shock: This is the best Porch ever.
Hmm...maybe you were just too busy hi jacking that plane and running from the FBI.
Abortion sucks and I'm not sure if it was mine, I'd approve, but we all die. Might as well kill me before I get my first glimpse of the world rather than in a war or something.
That said, consider ourselves lucky we've made it this far..
:shock:
Who? Me?
Yes you, DB. Why did you change your pic?
William Gossett.
This is my Summer look.
The case will be solved this year. William Gossett is DB.Cooper.
I just read about this new lead.
Don't believe a word of it.
I am D B Cooper.
Maybe a waiting room that the souls go back to until they are wanted ...waiting for love
Waiting ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K04On2PkdaI
i'll dream a dream of you tonight
i'll see a picture of you in my head tonight
if i can't hear you, oh in real life
i'll make it up all my life
tonight i'll dream only of you
i got an old photograph
oh how they seem to last
these moments slip away
all the days so grey, grey...
seven years gone by now...(38 years gone by now)
oh still it's in my eyes
i'll walk away, walk away...
you're just about to miss the
best part of it all, of it all...
of it all, of it all...
for you my child that never was...I am sorry for your soul
Do you count those fertilised eggs that have aborted naturally (ie approx 70% of potential pregnancies)?
When is one supposed to get a soul? At conception? At 40 days? Or 80 days? (Depending if you are male or female) At quickening?
Should one believe in the concept of 'soul' there are many 'theories' as to when acquiring soul happens.
those who believe in souls at conception,
those who don't believe at all.... there is a human soul
and those in the middle who somehow logically pick a time the soul enters the fetus.
Do I count fertilized eggs? yes.... I do...I count all souls ... as though they walk the earth.
I believe the soul is chosen at conception.
My baby had a soul... my point ... my belief....my tribute... to our shared loss.
Is this the only choices
it has nothing to do with religion or consciousness if anything more with the subconscious
Your path will lead you to your answers and your beliefs may just be a bump in the road
he still stands... christian holy spirit thing a ma jigger. Consciousness is very different - it's your 'definition'. I think that the christians are the only one with an 'eternal soul' (a gift of god of some kind). Certainly Buddhism doesn't have that concept. It's more the concept of consciousness - just a continuation of awareness.