Its complete, all those organs are there, there developing and growing. The fetus is dependant of the mother, yes, but just like we depend on oxygen to live, they are a product of their environment, why does that disqualify them from being human?
Huh?? :?
All the genetic information is there for them to develop,
well, that's different from the organs being "there." If they are there, that means they actually exist in 3d reality, right?
This is so entertaining... you guys are so emotional about all this and it leads to you making pejorative statements and statements that are just not true.
I think EVERYONE can agree that abortion should be the last choice. It shouldn't be something that is swept under the rug in your mental palace.
But, we are taking a step back if we think that the government should get involved. Education, enlightenment, and evolution will lead us to a day where no one gets abortions.
Legislation is icky.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Scientifically... life begins when cells begin dividing... just a few hours (maybe a day or two?) after conception.
Conception, to me, is the first moment of that entity's life. That is when the process of a human begins. It's at the bottom of that stairwell, the very first step. That cluster of cells is the most minuscule organization of human construct. Whether or not you agree that cluster should go on to be a human life is an issue of morality, not an issue of science, not a debate of facts, it is morality. Hour 22 or Week 22, those cells will inevitably form a complete human (if void of complications). The issue in abortion is whether or not you will accept that inevitability.
All the genetic information is there for them to develop,
Potentially... develop. It would seem nature is the main 'murderer' as about 70% of fertilised eggs (the start of life for some people) never end up developing into a being.
Scientifically... life begins when cells begin dividing... just a few hours (maybe a day or two?) after conception.
Conception, to me, is the first moment of that entity's life. That is when the process of a human begins. It's at the bottom of that stairwell, the very first step. That cluster of cells is the most minuscule organization of human construct. Whether or not you agree that cluster should go on to be a human life is an issue of morality, not an issue of science, not a debate of facts, it is morality. Hour 22 or Week 22, those cells will inevitably form a complete human (if void of complications). The issue in abortion is whether or not you will accept that inevitability.
sorry, but if you think this is not an issue of science or facts but of morality... then me and you discussing this is like a chicken talking to a rhinocerous. The moral aspect is up to the individual and I'd rather not be preached or proselytized to.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
All the genetic information is there for them to develop,
Potentially... develop. It would seem nature is the main 'murderer' as about 70% of fertilised eggs (the start of life for some people) never end up developing into a being.
haha... can't you see how horribly misguided it is to take the opposite approach and say "its ok to destroy things we don't understand"? That's classic small mindedness.
Tell me, when is the exact moment a human fetus becomes a human such that you are no longer OK with killing it? Is it the moment it starts to look like a human to you? Do you honestly think you can make this call? There's no science to support it. You're using a very primitive standard - appearance - and the stakes are high. How, can you be so sure you're right?
All the genetic information is there for them to develop,
an alphabet soup is not a book...
I didn't know genetic information need to be interpreted by someone for it to be human???
No, nobody ever said its not human, but just as much as those letters in the soup need an author, that fetus need its mother. That's why so many here feel that it is a decision of the mother as to how to deal with something that is an extension of HER body. It is an EXTENSION of her body.
All the genetic information is there for them to develop,
Potentially... develop. It would seem nature is the main 'murderer' as about 70% of fertilised eggs (the start of life for some people) never end up developing into a being.
haha... can't you see how horribly misguided it is to take the opposite approach and say "its ok to destroy things we don't understand"? That's classic small mindedness.
Tell me, when is the exact moment a human fetus becomes a human such that you are no longer OK with killing it? Is it the moment it starts to look like a human to you? Do you honestly think you can make this call? There's no science to support it. You're using a very primitive standard - appearance - and the stakes are high. How, can you be so sure you're right?
Ummmm.... where did I say 'it's OK to destroy things we don't understand'? I really don't get your reply - totally out of sync with what I said. Weird tirade there....
An embryo/fetus of any species which reproduce via live birth or that require external processes to be able to develop (such as eggs being kept at certain temperatures, etc) becomes one of their species when they are independently viable. Crack a fertilised egg to early, the chick is dead. A human fetus removed too early from the womb dies. Nothing about appearance here...
1) Heidi thinks that life begins at conception, and that the terms "life" and "human" are interchangeable.
2) Most people here disagree with that, except the most fundamentalist religiosos.
3) Everyone here needs to take a class in epistemology and learn the difference between "belief," "fact," and "knowledge." That'll clear up most of the confusion in regards to communication.
4) Let's all have a hug.
Everything not forbidden is compulsory and eveything not compulsory is forbidden. You are free... free to do what the government says you can do.
Wow I'm worn out trying to keep up with this thread. Nice story ad ending to the disabled turtles. We have quite a few here in the lake and canal and they are beautiful to watch lined up bathing in the sun.
Peace
*We CAN bomb the World to pieces, but we CAN'T bomb it into PEACE*...Michael Franti
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
Either you think human embryo is human or not. Same with the turtle you either think the turtle embryo is a turtle or not, if you are of the opinion that the we need to save the turtle embryo then you are admitting that the embryo is alive and you are in support of ending a humans life. I am not religious nor conservative quit generalizing... and quit being a hypocrite...
dude, i really have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. a human EMBRYO is not a fucking human. it is a POTENTIAL human that requires nourishment from the mother's body for it to even possibly become a human being. i have explained to you why. and i am not going to explain it again. how many embryos are miscarried? is a miscarriage murder? NO, and you can not murder something that is not human yet. is is manslaughter?? NO. is there such a crime as embryoslaughter?? NO. killing a potential human is not the same as killing a human being. an embryo can not survive without the mother. the embryo is basically a parasite existing off of the nourishment from the woman's body. it can do nothing apart from being fed and nourised and incubated by the mother. an embryo is not a sentient being. an embryo is incapable of thought, processing, or feeling pain. it is not a human. i don't know what else i have to do to explain it to you, but it is obvious you are thriving on the attention you are getting in this thread.
who the fuck even brought up the turtle? you did and it has been explained to you countless times that you are comparing APPLES to fucking LETTUCE.
lastly, i am not generalizing and based on your arguments in the many hundreds of posts you made you are a conservative. there is no way for you to argue differently. you have the mindset of a conservative. there is nothing wrong with it, just admit it. and remember tea partiers are still conservatives....
and how am i or anyone else on here being a hypocrite?????
Post edited by gimmesometruth27 on
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Did you not partake in the act??? Maybe take some fucking responsibility for your actions.
and who are you to judge anyone on here for things that have happened in their life???? your self righteousness would be laughable if it were not so sad.....
"You can tell the greatness of a man by what makes him angry." - Lincoln
Women abort their fetus because they know it will grow into a human life that they do not want for whatever reason.
So the argument about when the fetus is a human being is kind of ridiculous because the women is taking action against it knowing full well what it is....
what it will be in a few short months, this why she is having an abortion.
Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with "malice aforethought"
which could be abortion but it is legal so we are talking morally, in the eyes of God or by moral standards.
This a very personal subject, individually one finds the answer in their heart,
in the fiber of their basic beliefs.
Morals are something that can not be reasonably debated it is the basis of who we are individually.
Abortion is legal and will remain so and should remain so in my opinion.
Morally each women will find what she believes to be the right thing to do in her situation.
Women abort their fetus because they know it will grow into a human life that they do not want for whatever reason.
So the argument about when the fetus is a human being is kind of ridiculous because the women is taking action against it knowing full wellwhat it is....
I think for most posters here it's the stance/argument of it what it COULD be not what it is now. A lump of clay could become a cup if I moulded it to be that way. If you throw it away instead it is still just a lump of clay.
Women abort their fetus because they know it will grow into a human life that they do not want for whatever reason.
So the argument about when the fetus is a human being is kind of ridiculous because the women is taking action against it knowing full wellwhat it is....
I think for most posters here it's the stance/argument of it what it COULD be not what it is now. A lump of clay could become a cup if I moulded it to be that way. If you throw it away instead it is still just a lump of clay.
This a very personal subject, individually one finds the answer in their heart,
in the fiber of their basic beliefs.
Morals are something that can not be reasonably debated it is the basis of who we are individually.
Abortion is legal and will remain so and should remain so in my opinion.
Morally each women will find what she believes to be the right thing to do in her situation.
Agreed :thumbup:
I get it but they do know its a cup ...well if they allow themselves to know...
it's a painful road for most.
In my case I didn't want to know it was a cup and wouldn't allow myself to realize that...
well til after then it hit me ...
I was lost in a black lonely empty place with no way out for a long time.
Scientifically... life begins when cells begin dividing... just a few hours (maybe a day or two?) after conception.
Conception, to me, is the first moment of that entity's life. That is when the process of a human begins. It's at the bottom of that stairwell, the very first step. That cluster of cells is the most minuscule organization of human construct. Whether or not you agree that cluster should go on to be a human life is an issue of morality, not an issue of science, not a debate of facts, it is morality. Hour 22 or Week 22, those cells will inevitably form a complete human (if void of complications). The issue in abortion is whether or not you will accept that inevitability.
So what does your morality tell you about embryo banks? Let's say you and your wife are having trouble getting pregnant, so you go to one of those fertility clinics where they take some of your wife's eggs & put them together with some of your sperm and make a whole bunch of little embryos. My understanding is that they never implant ALL of them into the woman at the same time, so there are always some that are saved in case they need a second or third try at it. If you & your wife did this and got pregnant on the first try, do you believe you & your wife have a moral obligation to accept the inevitability that these embryos were meant to become people and have your wife incubate each of them into babies - even if it means, say, 15 pregnancies & 15 kids?
Comments
well, that's different from the organs being "there." If they are there, that means they actually exist in 3d reality, right?
This is so entertaining... you guys are so emotional about all this and it leads to you making pejorative statements and statements that are just not true.
I think EVERYONE can agree that abortion should be the last choice. It shouldn't be something that is swept under the rug in your mental palace.
But, we are taking a step back if we think that the government should get involved. Education, enlightenment, and evolution will lead us to a day where no one gets abortions.
Legislation is icky.
an alphabet soup is not a book...
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
sorry, but if you think this is not an issue of science or facts but of morality... then me and you discussing this is like a chicken talking to a rhinocerous. The moral aspect is up to the individual and I'd rather not be preached or proselytized to.
Tell me, when is the exact moment a human fetus becomes a human such that you are no longer OK with killing it? Is it the moment it starts to look like a human to you? Do you honestly think you can make this call? There's no science to support it. You're using a very primitive standard - appearance - and the stakes are high. How, can you be so sure you're right?
Well could be human but is not a person until it develops.
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
You're talking about 2 separate issues here.
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
No, nobody ever said its not human, but just as much as those letters in the soup need an author, that fetus need its mother. That's why so many here feel that it is a decision of the mother as to how to deal with something that is an extension of HER body. It is an EXTENSION of her body.
Ummmm.... where did I say 'it's OK to destroy things we don't understand'? I really don't get your reply - totally out of sync with what I said. Weird tirade there....
An embryo/fetus of any species which reproduce via live birth or that require external processes to be able to develop (such as eggs being kept at certain temperatures, etc) becomes one of their species when they are independently viable. Crack a fertilised egg to early, the chick is dead. A human fetus removed too early from the womb dies. Nothing about appearance here...
1) Heidi thinks that life begins at conception, and that the terms "life" and "human" are interchangeable.
2) Most people here disagree with that, except the most fundamentalist religiosos.
3) Everyone here needs to take a class in epistemology and learn the difference between "belief," "fact," and "knowledge." That'll clear up most of the confusion in regards to communication.
4) Let's all have a hug.
Good God, the anaology parade is a scary, scary thing in here..
and now disabled turtles? when this is going to stop!
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
Poor little guy. Has to use a trolly to get around :(
Leave the disbaled turtles alone, they have rights too!
That is a really sad image :(
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
Don't worry, she found love in the end
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... -love.html
Some more turtles.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8473968.stm
Wow I'm worn out trying to keep up with this thread. Nice story ad ending to the disabled turtles. We have quite a few here in the lake and canal and they are beautiful to watch lined up bathing in the sun.
Peace
*MUSIC IS the expression of EMOTION.....and that POLITICS IS merely the DECOY of PERCEPTION*
.....song_Music & Politics....Michael Franti
*The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite INSANE*....Nikola Tesla(a man who shaped our world of electricity with his futuristic inventions)
So irresponsible people can live a consequence-free lifestyle.
So narrow minded.. its just not work the time to explain to people who live their lives so perfectly.
dude, i really have no idea what the fuck you are talking about. a human EMBRYO is not a fucking human. it is a POTENTIAL human that requires nourishment from the mother's body for it to even possibly become a human being. i have explained to you why. and i am not going to explain it again. how many embryos are miscarried? is a miscarriage murder? NO, and you can not murder something that is not human yet. is is manslaughter?? NO. is there such a crime as embryoslaughter?? NO. killing a potential human is not the same as killing a human being. an embryo can not survive without the mother. the embryo is basically a parasite existing off of the nourishment from the woman's body. it can do nothing apart from being fed and nourised and incubated by the mother. an embryo is not a sentient being. an embryo is incapable of thought, processing, or feeling pain. it is not a human. i don't know what else i have to do to explain it to you, but it is obvious you are thriving on the attention you are getting in this thread.
who the fuck even brought up the turtle? you did and it has been explained to you countless times that you are comparing APPLES to fucking LETTUCE.
lastly, i am not generalizing and based on your arguments in the many hundreds of posts you made you are a conservative. there is no way for you to argue differently. you have the mindset of a conservative. there is nothing wrong with it, just admit it. and remember tea partiers are still conservatives....
and how am i or anyone else on here being a hypocrite?????
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
"Well, you tell him that I don't talk to suckas."
So the argument about when the fetus is a human being is kind of ridiculous because the women is taking action against it knowing full well what it is....
what it will be in a few short months, this why she is having an abortion.
Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with "malice aforethought"
which could be abortion but it is legal so we are talking morally, in the eyes of God or by moral standards.
This a very personal subject, individually one finds the answer in their heart,
in the fiber of their basic beliefs.
Morals are something that can not be reasonably debated it is the basis of who we are individually.
Abortion is legal and will remain so and should remain so in my opinion.
Morally each women will find what she believes to be the right thing to do in her situation.
I think for most posters here it's the stance/argument of it what it COULD be not what it is now. A lump of clay could become a cup if I moulded it to be that way. If you throw it away instead it is still just a lump of clay.
Agreed :thumbup:
I get it but they do know its a cup ...well if they allow themselves to know...
it's a painful road for most.
In my case I didn't want to know it was a cup and wouldn't allow myself to realize that...
well til after then it hit me ...
I was lost in a black lonely empty place with no way out for a long time.
Eventually, we try to make peace with what we do.
So what does your morality tell you about embryo banks? Let's say you and your wife are having trouble getting pregnant, so you go to one of those fertility clinics where they take some of your wife's eggs & put them together with some of your sperm and make a whole bunch of little embryos. My understanding is that they never implant ALL of them into the woman at the same time, so there are always some that are saved in case they need a second or third try at it. If you & your wife did this and got pregnant on the first try, do you believe you & your wife have a moral obligation to accept the inevitability that these embryos were meant to become people and have your wife incubate each of them into babies - even if it means, say, 15 pregnancies & 15 kids?