The difference between the death penalty and abortion

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I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

polaris_x

oh oh ...

theserialthrilla

are you for real

_

theserialthrilla wrote:

are you for real

No, I'm a figment of your imagination.

blackredyellow

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

To play devil's advocate...

Point one is the sticking point... pro-life people believe that a fetus = life, so an abortion is killing a life = killing a person.

I disagree with that point of view, but who's to say that I'm right and their wrong? If you believe that life starts at conception, then it's killing, cut and dry.

theserialthrilla

scb wrote:

theserialthrilla wrote:

are you for real

No, I'm a figment of your imagination.

good as i would hate to think you were out there

Blockhead

Why do people who take someones life against their will given any kind of rights as a human after that?
People that have an abortion I see as murders (although there are some instances I see as acceptable)

Jason P

I really don't have a horse in this race, but I like how both conservatives and liberals rationalize their views on both these subjects. SCB, I assume that is a view shared by most liberals. I would guess that conservatives view a fetus as "innocent" while a convicted killer is an abomination that we end up in hell.

But the way I see it, if the fetus is not interfered with, their is a good probability it will become a healthy human in 9 months. And it is a lot more innocent that a convicted death-row inmate. And for the conservatives that preach about how valuable life is, most wouldn't blink about killing an adult on death row.

youngster

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

This I completely agree with.

Jason P

Also, I apologize in advance for opening this can of worms (with some help from SCB ). It was just a random thought that popped in my head earlier today when I posed the question in the death penalty thread . . . sorta like when Ray created the Stay-Puff marshmallow man.

Anyway, we should put together a pool on how many people end up getting banned due to this thread

FiveB247x

I wouldn't be so much against the death penalty if it actually deterred people from killing and crime. In practice it ends up amounting to nothing more then vengeance and justification to wipe society's hands of trouble.

blackredyellow

Jason P wrote:

I really don't have a horse in this race, but I like how both conservatives and liberals rationalize their views on both these subjects. SCB, I assume that is a view shared by most liberals. I would guess that conservatives view a fetus as "innocent" while a convicted killer is an abomination that we end up in hell.

But the way I see it, if the fetus is not interfered with, their is a good probability it will become a healthy human in 9 months. And it is a lot more innocent that a convicted death-row inmate. And for the conservatives that preach about how valuable life is, most wouldn't blink about killing an adult on death row.

I don't really have a horse in it either... I guess I'm "pro-choice", but I honestly don't even know if it's because I think it legitimately should be an option, or that it's going to happen so we might as well make it as safe as possible.

Not sure how I can be so indifferent to a subject that is so polarizing, but I guess I am.

As far as the death penalty, I don't like it... too many innocent people have been found guilty, and I don't think the state should take part in revenge killings.

_

blackredyellow wrote:

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

To play devil's advocate...

Point one is the sticking point... pro-life people believe that a fetus = life, so an abortion is killing a life = killing a person.

I disagree with that point of view, but who's to say that I'm right and their wrong? If you believe that life starts at conception, then it's killing, cut and dry.

I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. I think just because an organism has life doesn't mean it's a person.

BinauralJam

I'm anti Abortion, but Pro choice. Anti Death Penalty but only because of financal cost.
Never said i was intelligent, but smart enough to reconize it.
i've confused myself now, i need to go sit down.

CJMST3K

....jumping in, throwing a hand grenade, then jumping out....

scb wrote:

1. A fetus is not a person.

How do you define "a person"?

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

Babies that are 3 days old also fit the above description. People in a coma fit the above description too. Is there a difference between them and a fetus, in regards to a conscious will to live?

scb wrote:

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

Except for people who confess to a crime and ask to be put to death (however rare the circumstance). Would you agree?


...I love a reasoned debate from everyone.

_

Jason P wrote:

Also, I apologize in advance for opening this can of worms (with some help from SCB ). It was just a random thought that popped in my head earlier today when I posed the question in the death penalty thread . . . sorta like when Ray created the Stay-Puff marshmallow man.

Anyway, we should put together a pool on how many people end up getting banned due to this thread

Hey man, I waited at least 5 posts before jumping in! I have high hopes that we can have a somewhat civil conversation about abortion though.

cincybearcat

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

1) A murderer has made their own choice
2) A murderer has taken away another's will to live

mikepegg44

Let's Say that life does indeed begin at conception for the sake of argument.

If I were to force a woman to gain ~30 pounds, make her ill, give her possible complications that could kill her, keep her in bed for months, and all the other things that can go on in a pregnancy (too many to name) I would be put in jail for abuse and possible attempted murder.

If the only way that woman was able to avoid those things I was doing was to kill me, it would be justifiable. In my mind the same goes for a fetus. If there is a way(and I am not sur if there is but it seems pretty far fetched to me) to remove a fetus from a woman without killing it and take it to full term, it would no longer be justified to kill it. Until that day comes abortion is just fine with me.

I personally wold never want it to happen in my life, but anyone who wants one should be able to get it in a safe environment. Morally they will have to square that with themselves.

And the same type of argument works the other way. If a murderer does those things that I was talking about earlier it is justifiable in my mind to kill them, whether as a life saving measure, or as punishment for their crime. The only thing that hangs me up on fully supporting the death penalty is the idea that someone could be wrongly killed. I don't know if I will ever be comfortable with the idea that could happen.

CJMST3K

mikepegg44 wrote:

Let's Say that life does indeed begin at conception for the sake of argument.

If I were to force a woman to gain ~30 pounds, make her ill, give her possible complications that could kill her, keep her in bed for months, and all the other things that can go on in a pregnancy (too many to name) I would be put in jail for abuse and possible attempted murder.

If the only way that woman was able to avoid those things I was doing was to kill me, it would be justifiable. In my mind the same goes for a fetus. If there is a way(and I am not sur if there is but it seems pretty far fetched to me) to remove a fetus from a woman without killing it and take it to full term, it would no longer be justified to kill it. Until that day comes abortion is just fine with me.

I personally wold never want it to happen in my life, but anyone who wants one should be able to get it in a safe environment. Morally they will have to square that with themselves.

And the same type of argument works the other way. If a murderer does those things that I was talking about earlier it is justifiable in my mind to kill them, whether as a life saving measure, or as punishment for their crime. The only thing that hangs me up on fully supporting the death penalty is the idea that someone could be wrongly killed. I don't know if I will ever be comfortable with the idea that could happen.

Fair enough point. Though I would put it a different way.

Imagine the next person you see... lets say a 15 year old kid... were to be suddenly put into a room all by themself and their memory erased. All he/she knows is that they're in this room sitting in a chair.

...now lets say that the fact that he/she is in the room makes someone periodically feel ill. Is that enough reason to terminate him/her? Keeping in mind he/she didn't ask to be put in the room.

(not taking sides - I'm playing a logic exercise )

_

CJMST3K wrote:

....jumping in, throwing a hand grenade, then jumping out....

scb wrote:

1. A fetus is not a person.

How do you define "a person"?

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

Babies that are 3 days old also fit the above description. People in a coma fit the above description too. Is there a difference between them and a fetus, in regards to a conscious will to live?

scb wrote:

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

Except for people who confess to a crime and ask to be put to death (however rare the circumstance). Would you agree?


...I love a reasoned debate from everyone.

1. Characteristics of a person include individuality, the development of self-consciousness and consciousness of the world around it, and development of the ability for rational thought.

2. Babies that are 3 days old and people in a coma do not fit that description. A fetus has not developed a consciousness of itself or the world; babies and people in comas have.

If I person is put to death only because he asked to be put to death, then that's not the death penalty.

_

cincybearcat wrote:

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

1) A murderer has made their own choice
2) A murderer has taken away another's will to live

1) They have not made the choice to be put to death.
2) Two wrongs don't make a right.

_

mikepegg44 wrote:

Let's Say that life does indeed begin at conception for the sake of argument.

If I were to force a woman to gain ~30 pounds, make her ill, give her possible complications that could kill her, keep her in bed for months, and all the other things that can go on in a pregnancy (too many to name) I would be put in jail for abuse and possible attempted murder.

If the only way that woman was able to avoid those things I was doing was to kill me, it would be justifiable. In my mind the same goes for a fetus. If there is a way(and I am not sur if there is but it seems pretty far fetched to me) to remove a fetus from a woman without killing it and take it to full term, it would no longer be justified to kill it. Until that day comes abortion is just fine with me.

... but anyone who wants one should be able to get it in a safe environment. Morally they will have to square that with themselves.

I completely agree.

If a murderer does those things that I was talking about earlier it is justifiable in my mind to kill them... as punishment for their crime.

I completely disagree.

CJMST3K

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

....jumping in, throwing a hand grenade, then jumping out....

scb wrote:

1. A fetus is not a person.

How do you define "a person"?

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

Babies that are 3 days old also fit the above description. People in a coma fit the above description too. Is there a difference between them and a fetus, in regards to a conscious will to live?

scb wrote:

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

Except for people who confess to a crime and ask to be put to death (however rare the circumstance). Would you agree?


...I love a reasoned debate from everyone.

1. Characteristics of a person include individuality, the development of self-consciousness and consciousness of the world around it, and development of the ability for rational thought.

2. Babies that are 3 days old and people in a coma do not fit that description. A fetus has not developed a consciousness of itself or the world; babies and people in comas have.

If I person is put to death only because he asked to be put to death, then that's not the death penalty.

Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.

How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?

_

CJMST3K wrote:

Fair enough point. Though I would put it a different way.

Imagine the next person you see... lets say a 15 year old kid... were to be suddenly put into a room all by themself and their memory erased. All he/she knows is that they're in this room sitting in a chair.

...now lets say that the fact that he/she is in the room makes someone periodically feel ill. Is that enough reason to terminate him/her? Keeping in mind he/she didn't ask to be put in the room.

(not taking sides - I'm playing a logic exercise )

I don't think that's a good analogy.

1) The person in the room is a person. He has self-awareness and the capacity for rational thought. A fetus is/does not. Does he WANT to live? Once he is capable of making that decision, it's his to make. A fetus is not capable of making that decision.

2) The discription of someone periodically feeling ill is not representative of many women's experience of pregnancy.

_

CJMST3K wrote:

Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.

How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?

Do you mean they're devoid of the will to live or they're devoid of the consciousness of their will?

I think this happens when we are born.

BinauralJam

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.

How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?

Do you mean they're devoid of the will to live or they're devoid of the consciousness of their will?

I think this happens when we are born.

My sister 41 years old, i've seen no evidence of this.

CJMST3K

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.

How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?

Do you mean they're devoid of the will to live or they're devoid of the consciousness of their will?

I think this happens when we are born.

So your belief is that a fetus/baby does not have enough "presence of mind" (to simplify your list of qualifications) until the moment it sees light and takes a breath... is that correct? So, like 1 second into being outside of the host, their thought process at that moment changes them into a "person", which they were not a moment before. Is this correct?

...and as far as what I mean, my intent is to say is there a circumstance when a "person" (by your definition of person) does not "have a conscious will to live"?

BinauralJam

I've known women who have had multiable abortions, that's where i really get upset, i'm pro choice, but it's not a form of birth control. one mistake, a rape , something like that o.k., at some point you have to take responsibility of your actions.

catefrances

KO282453 wrote:

I've known women who have had multiable abortions, that's where i really get upset, i'm pro choice, but it's not a form of birth control. one mistake, a rape , something like that o.k., at some point you have to take responsibility of your actions.

so you dont see that making a conscious decision to NOT bring an unwanted child into the world is taking responsibility?? must a women be forced to carry a foetus to term??? will that teach her some sort of responsibility???

and what do you care how many abortions a woman has?? how is it your business??

unsung

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

Does said fetus have a beating heart?

Does a murderer have a heart?

unsung

scb wrote:

I don't think that's a good analogy.

1) The person in the room is a person. He has self-awareness and the capacity for rational thought. A fetus is/does not. Does he WANT to live? Once he is capable of making that decision, it's his to make. A fetus is not capable of making that decision.

So is a two month old baby capable of making that decision?