The difference between the death penalty and abortion

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I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

polaris_x

oh oh ...

theserialthrilla

are you for real

_

theserialthrilla wrote:

are you for real

No, I'm a figment of your imagination.

blackredyellow

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

To play devil's advocate...

Point one is the sticking point... pro-life people believe that a fetus = life, so an abortion is killing a life = killing a person.

I disagree with that point of view, but who's to say that I'm right and their wrong? If you believe that life starts at conception, then it's killing, cut and dry.

theserialthrilla

scb wrote:

theserialthrilla wrote:

are you for real

No, I'm a figment of your imagination.

good as i would hate to think you were out there

Blockhead

Why do people who take someones life against their will given any kind of rights as a human after that?
People that have an abortion I see as murders (although there are some instances I see as acceptable)

Jason P

I really don't have a horse in this race, but I like how both conservatives and liberals rationalize their views on both these subjects. SCB, I assume that is a view shared by most liberals. I would guess that conservatives view a fetus as "innocent" while a convicted killer is an abomination that we end up in hell.

But the way I see it, if the fetus is not interfered with, their is a good probability it will become a healthy human in 9 months. And it is a lot more innocent that a convicted death-row inmate. And for the conservatives that preach about how valuable life is, most wouldn't blink about killing an adult on death row.

youngster

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

This I completely agree with.

Jason P

Also, I apologize in advance for opening this can of worms (with some help from SCB ). It was just a random thought that popped in my head earlier today when I posed the question in the death penalty thread . . . sorta like when Ray created the Stay-Puff marshmallow man.

Anyway, we should put together a pool on how many people end up getting banned due to this thread

FiveB247x

I wouldn't be so much against the death penalty if it actually deterred people from killing and crime. In practice it ends up amounting to nothing more then vengeance and justification to wipe society's hands of trouble.

blackredyellow

Jason P wrote:

I really don't have a horse in this race, but I like how both conservatives and liberals rationalize their views on both these subjects. SCB, I assume that is a view shared by most liberals. I would guess that conservatives view a fetus as "innocent" while a convicted killer is an abomination that we end up in hell.

But the way I see it, if the fetus is not interfered with, their is a good probability it will become a healthy human in 9 months. And it is a lot more innocent that a convicted death-row inmate. And for the conservatives that preach about how valuable life is, most wouldn't blink about killing an adult on death row.

I don't really have a horse in it either... I guess I'm "pro-choice", but I honestly don't even know if it's because I think it legitimately should be an option, or that it's going to happen so we might as well make it as safe as possible.

Not sure how I can be so indifferent to a subject that is so polarizing, but I guess I am.

As far as the death penalty, I don't like it... too many innocent people have been found guilty, and I don't think the state should take part in revenge killings.

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blackredyellow wrote:

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

To play devil's advocate...

Point one is the sticking point... pro-life people believe that a fetus = life, so an abortion is killing a life = killing a person.

I disagree with that point of view, but who's to say that I'm right and their wrong? If you believe that life starts at conception, then it's killing, cut and dry.

I don't think it's quite so cut and dry. I think just because an organism has life doesn't mean it's a person.

BinauralJam

I'm anti Abortion, but Pro choice. Anti Death Penalty but only because of financal cost.
Never said i was intelligent, but smart enough to reconize it.
i've confused myself now, i need to go sit down.

CJMST3K

....jumping in, throwing a hand grenade, then jumping out....

scb wrote:

1. A fetus is not a person.

How do you define "a person"?

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

Babies that are 3 days old also fit the above description. People in a coma fit the above description too. Is there a difference between them and a fetus, in regards to a conscious will to live?

scb wrote:

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

Except for people who confess to a crime and ask to be put to death (however rare the circumstance). Would you agree?


...I love a reasoned debate from everyone.

_

Jason P wrote:

Also, I apologize in advance for opening this can of worms (with some help from SCB ). It was just a random thought that popped in my head earlier today when I posed the question in the death penalty thread . . . sorta like when Ray created the Stay-Puff marshmallow man.

Anyway, we should put together a pool on how many people end up getting banned due to this thread

Hey man, I waited at least 5 posts before jumping in! I have high hopes that we can have a somewhat civil conversation about abortion though.

cincybearcat

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

1) A murderer has made their own choice
2) A murderer has taken away another's will to live

mikepegg44

Let's Say that life does indeed begin at conception for the sake of argument.

If I were to force a woman to gain ~30 pounds, make her ill, give her possible complications that could kill her, keep her in bed for months, and all the other things that can go on in a pregnancy (too many to name) I would be put in jail for abuse and possible attempted murder.

If the only way that woman was able to avoid those things I was doing was to kill me, it would be justifiable. In my mind the same goes for a fetus. If there is a way(and I am not sur if there is but it seems pretty far fetched to me) to remove a fetus from a woman without killing it and take it to full term, it would no longer be justified to kill it. Until that day comes abortion is just fine with me.

I personally wold never want it to happen in my life, but anyone who wants one should be able to get it in a safe environment. Morally they will have to square that with themselves.

And the same type of argument works the other way. If a murderer does those things that I was talking about earlier it is justifiable in my mind to kill them, whether as a life saving measure, or as punishment for their crime. The only thing that hangs me up on fully supporting the death penalty is the idea that someone could be wrongly killed. I don't know if I will ever be comfortable with the idea that could happen.

CJMST3K

mikepegg44 wrote:

Let's Say that life does indeed begin at conception for the sake of argument.

If I were to force a woman to gain ~30 pounds, make her ill, give her possible complications that could kill her, keep her in bed for months, and all the other things that can go on in a pregnancy (too many to name) I would be put in jail for abuse and possible attempted murder.

If the only way that woman was able to avoid those things I was doing was to kill me, it would be justifiable. In my mind the same goes for a fetus. If there is a way(and I am not sur if there is but it seems pretty far fetched to me) to remove a fetus from a woman without killing it and take it to full term, it would no longer be justified to kill it. Until that day comes abortion is just fine with me.

I personally wold never want it to happen in my life, but anyone who wants one should be able to get it in a safe environment. Morally they will have to square that with themselves.

And the same type of argument works the other way. If a murderer does those things that I was talking about earlier it is justifiable in my mind to kill them, whether as a life saving measure, or as punishment for their crime. The only thing that hangs me up on fully supporting the death penalty is the idea that someone could be wrongly killed. I don't know if I will ever be comfortable with the idea that could happen.

Fair enough point. Though I would put it a different way.

Imagine the next person you see... lets say a 15 year old kid... were to be suddenly put into a room all by themself and their memory erased. All he/she knows is that they're in this room sitting in a chair.

...now lets say that the fact that he/she is in the room makes someone periodically feel ill. Is that enough reason to terminate him/her? Keeping in mind he/she didn't ask to be put in the room.

(not taking sides - I'm playing a logic exercise )

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CJMST3K wrote:

....jumping in, throwing a hand grenade, then jumping out....

scb wrote:

1. A fetus is not a person.

How do you define "a person"?

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

Babies that are 3 days old also fit the above description. People in a coma fit the above description too. Is there a difference between them and a fetus, in regards to a conscious will to live?

scb wrote:

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

Except for people who confess to a crime and ask to be put to death (however rare the circumstance). Would you agree?


...I love a reasoned debate from everyone.

1. Characteristics of a person include individuality, the development of self-consciousness and consciousness of the world around it, and development of the ability for rational thought.

2. Babies that are 3 days old and people in a coma do not fit that description. A fetus has not developed a consciousness of itself or the world; babies and people in comas have.

If I person is put to death only because he asked to be put to death, then that's not the death penalty.

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cincybearcat wrote:

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

1) A murderer has made their own choice
2) A murderer has taken away another's will to live

1) They have not made the choice to be put to death.
2) Two wrongs don't make a right.