Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.
How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?
Do you mean they're devoid of the will to live or they're devoid of the consciousness of their will?
I think this happens when we are born.
So your belief is that a fetus/baby does not have enough "presence of mind" (to simplify your list of qualifications) until the moment it sees light and takes a breath... is that correct? So, like 1 second into being outside of the host, their thought process at that moment changes them into a "person", which they were not a moment before. Is this correct?
Something like that. You can't have consciousness of the world until you're actually in the world. You can't have consciousness of yourself as an individual until you have consciousness of others. You can't learn to reason while your very limited "actions" don't yet create consistent reactions. You can't be an individual while you are still a growth within someone else.
Do you have a better theory?
...and as far as what I mean, my intent is to say is there a circumstance when a "person" (by your definition of person) does not "have a conscious will to live"?
Of course. Not every conscious being has a will to live.
I've known women who have had multiable abortions, that's where i really get upset, i'm pro choice, but it's not a form of birth control. one mistake, a rape , something like that o.k., at some point you have to take responsibility of your actions.
Thats a great attitude... Take no responsibilities for your actions.
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???
1) The person in the room is a person. He has self-awareness and the capacity for rational thought. A fetus is/does not. Does he WANT to live? Once he is capable of making that decision, it's his to make. A fetus is not capable of making that decision.
So is a two month old baby capable of making that decision?
Sure. He's not very capable of communicating his decision, but he is capable of having a conscious will to live. My cats have a conscious will to live, even though they can't talk to me about it.
Thats a great attitude... Take no responsibilities for your actions.
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???
Thats a great attitude... Take no responsibilities for your actions.
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???
thanks... i love my attitude.
and i would think choosing not to bring an unwanted child into a fucked up situation would be considered taking responsible. but oops... i forgot... bringing a pregnancy to term against my will and then handing off my unwanted child to unknown people is the only acceptable response to the situation.
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Thats a great attitude... Take no responsibilities for your actions.
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???
thanks... i love my attitude.
and i would think choosing not to bring an unwanted child into a fucked up situation would be considered taking responsible. but oops... i forgot... bringing a pregnancy to term against my will and then handing off my unwanted child to unknown people is the only acceptable response to the situation.
Oh so you can do whatever you want, and justify having an abortion by saying well i don't want a child so I am just going to kill it. Your a joke of a human, and clearly don't value life. Start taking responsibility for your actions, you can't live your life doing whatever you want and not accept the consequences. Sometime you need to make sacrifices, you would understand if you had a child.
I am Pro Choice. Not Pro Abortion... Pro CHOICE. I believe that it is the ultimate decision of the woman to choose... not mine... not yours... not the govenment... not the chruch.
I am one who hopes the woman choose one of the other options available to her, other than abortion. But, that is not my call to make. That is hers and she must live with the consequences of her decision.
My number one option I would hope she chooses... avoid the pregnancy in the first place. Through education, arm her with the knowledge of consequences of having unprotected sex without the birth control options in place. She can choose condoms, diaphrams, the pill, blow jobs, anal or not having sex in the first place.... her choices.
I believe that if the Anti-Abortion... yes, people who support the death penalty and wars of choosing (not necessity) cannot call themselves "Pro-Life"... if the Anti-Abortion people focused their efforts, their money and their abundance of fanaticism towards sex education, they may help to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and help solve their own problem.
...
I am against the Death Penalty because I have learned that there are people on Death Row that that are innocent. Even if it's just a few, killing an innocent man through lethal injection... isn't that called 'Murder'?
I have learned about the ambitions of prosecutors wanting high conviction to support a 'Tough on Crime' stance for political purposes. I have also read of detectives looking for promotions, with heftier pensions, who want a good arrest/conviction rate. The justice system may be the best we've got... but, it isn't perfect.
And I could never be the one that would flip the switch, pull the trigger or press the plunger that ends another person's life... however heinous the crime was... just on that rare chance that he was railroaded on to Death Row because of other's career ambitions. It is too much for me to carry and maintain a clear conscience.
Prison is a horrible place and a suitable punishment for the criminals amongst us. They may still be alive, but are they living free?
Post edited by Cosmo on
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Hail, Hail!!!
and i would think choosing not to bring an unwanted child into a fucked up situation would be considered taking responsible. but oops... i forgot... bringing a pregnancy to term against my will and then handing off my unwanted child to unknown people is the only acceptable response to the situation.
Oh so you can do whatever you want, and justify having an abortion by saying well i don't want a child so I am just going to kill it. Your a joke of a human, and clearly don't value life. Start taking responsibility for your actions, you can't live your life doing whatever you want and not accept the consequences. Sometime you need to make sacrifices, you would understand if you had a child.
clearly you have no idea who youre talking to and yet you sit there hiding behind the anonymity of the internet judging people and making outrageous suppositions.
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Thats a great attitude... Take no responsibilities for your actions.
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???
thanks... i love my attitude.
and i would think choosing not to bring an unwanted child into a fucked up situation would be considered taking responsible. but oops... i forgot... bringing a pregnancy to term against my will and then handing off my unwanted child to unknown people is the only acceptable response to the situation.
Oh so you can do whatever you want, and justify having an abortion by saying well i don't want a child so I am just going to kill it. Your a joke of a human, and clearly don't value life. Start taking responsibility for your actions, you can't live your life doing whatever you want and not accept the consequences. Sometime you need to make sacrifices, you would understand if you had a child.
clearly you have no idea who youre talking to and yet you sit there hiding behind the anonymity of the internet judging people and making outrageous suppositions.
I am glad abortions are funny to you... SO let me get this straight you name a number of reasons why humans don't value life, complain about how destructive humanity is, yet your cool with abortions... Alot of people have opinions on this, I wonder how many have actually had an abortion? Opinions are always great when you don't have to face reality.
clearly you have no idea who youre talking to and yet you sit there hiding behind the anonymity of the internet judging people and making outrageous suppositions.
I am glad abortions are funny to you... SO let me get this straight you name a number of reasons why humans don't value life, complain about how destructive humanity is, yet your cool with abortions... Alot of people have opinions on this, I wonder how many have actually had an abortion? Opinions are always great when you don't have to face reality.
im laughing at you.
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So your belief is that a fetus/baby does not have enough "presence of mind" (to simplify your list of qualifications) until the moment it sees light and takes a breath... is that correct? So, like 1 second into being outside of the host, their thought process at that moment changes them into a "person", which they were not a moment before. Is this correct?
Something like that. You can't have consciousness of the world until you're actually in the world. You can't have consciousness of yourself as an individual until you have consciousness of others. You can't learn to reason while your very limited "actions" don't yet create consistent reactions. You can't be an individual while you are still a growth within someone else.
Do you have a better theory?
I do have a better theory. That fetuses are indeed people, and their "presence of mind" develops as their body develops. I remember a professor in college put it best that the brain is like a lightbulb on a dimmer, which starts dark and becomes bright while developing.
Your belief (with all due respect) that their "presence of mind", which turns them from a non-person to a person has to do with the moment it took a breath and the moment it sees light seems completely arbitrary. It has nothing to do with brain development, but more about reaching a finish line. You don't see this as an arbitrary qualifier?
Also you mention that "You can't have consciousness of the world until you're actually in the world". Silly me, I thought women lived in the world. (pardon the levity )
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Personally I think this is a copout answer. And it is becoming a very common answer.
Now that I think about it, probably not a copout answer but an answer from someone that just really hadn't made up your mind yet. That's ok, but this is 1 issue where I feel (in my own opinion only) you have to fall on 1 of 2 sides. Abortion is either murder or it isn't.
Personally I think this is a copout answer. And it is becoming a very common answer.
Now that I think about it, probably not a copout answer but an answer from someone that just really hadn't made up your mind yet. That's ok, but this is 1 issue where I feel (in my own opinion only) you have to fall on 1 of 2 sides. Abortion is either murder or it isn't.
What if your Pro Choice Anti Abortion, your against Abortion but against Anti Choice More?
is this a cop out or a crediable stance?
Personally I think this is a copout answer. And it is becoming a very common answer.
Now that I think about it, probably not a copout answer but an answer from someone that just really hadn't made up your mind yet. That's ok, but this is 1 issue where I feel (in my own opinion only) you have to fall on 1 of 2 sides. Abortion is either murder or it isn't.
being prochoice means you allow a woman to make up her own mind about what is best for her situation. it doesnt mean telling her she should abort just cause she can. and it also doesnt mean forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term against her will.
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What if your Pro Choice Anti Abortion, your against Abortion but against Anti Choice More?
is this a cop out or a crediable stance?
And this is you off of weed because of your job? I'd hate to read you on it.
So, you dislike the anti-abortion crowd (if you want to keep using negative terms for the other side of the argument, go ahead, but there are worse terms for the other side too) enough to be ok with abortion?
Well, if you think it's a life, then I don't know how you could support it. And if you don't think it's a life, I don't see how you could defend invading someone's personal medical decisions. So I think you'd have to be on 1 side or the other.
Personally I think this is a copout answer. And it is becoming a very common answer.
Now that I think about it, probably not a copout answer but an answer from someone that just really hadn't made up your mind yet. That's ok, but this is 1 issue where I feel (in my own opinion only) you have to fall on 1 of 2 sides. Abortion is either murder or it isn't.
being prochoice means you allow a woman to make up her own mind about what is best for her situation. it doesnt mean telling her she should abort just cause she can. and it also doesnt mean forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term against her will.
Exactly, it isn't making a decision on the subject.
What if your Pro Choice Anti Abortion, your against Abortion but against Anti Choice More?
is this a cop out or a crediable stance?
And this is you off of weed because of your job? I'd hate to read you on it.
So, you dislike the anti-abortion crowd (if you want to keep using negative terms for the other side of the argument, go ahead, but there are worse terms for the other side too) enough to be ok with abortion?
Well, if you think it's a life, then I don't know how you could support it. And if you don't think it's a life, I don't see how you could defend invading someone's personal medical decisions. So I think you'd have to be on 1 side or the other.
My veiws dont change with or with out weed well.... i guess... if i had to chose, i'm pro choice. i'm always for the individual's choice.
My veiws dont change with or with out weed well.... i guess... if i had to chose, i'm pro choice. i'm always for the individual's choice.
And I've come to be able to respect that. I disagree 100%, but respect the opinion. Though I do wish we had a society with zero abortions...and yes, I'm all for more sex education.
Personally I think this is a copout answer. And it is becoming a very common answer.
Now that I think about it, probably not a copout answer but an answer from someone that just really hadn't made up your mind yet. That's ok, but this is 1 issue where I feel (in my own opinion only) you have to fall on 1 of 2 sides. Abortion is either murder or it isn't.
being prochoice means you allow a woman to make up her own mind about what is best for her situation. it doesnt mean telling her she should abort just cause she can. and it also doesnt mean forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term against her will.
Exactly, it isn't making a decision on the subject.
its not our decision to make. hence the choice part.
if a woman feels she needs to terminate her pregnancy for whatever reason then who am i to tell her NO she must carry to term.
if a woman decides that she will continue a pregnancy and give birth then who am i to say NO you must abort that foetus.
deciding to have an abortion is a difficult decision. deciding to continue on with a pregnancy is also a difficult decision. to make it more difficult by telllng a woman her decision is wrong is just bullshit imo.
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Something like that. You can't have consciousness of the world until you're actually in the world. You can't have consciousness of yourself as an individual until you have consciousness of others. You can't learn to reason while your very limited "actions" don't yet create consistent reactions. You can't be an individual while you are still a growth within someone else.
Do you have a better theory?
I do have a better theory. That fetuses are indeed people, and their "presence of mind" develops as their body develops. I remember a professor in college put it best that the brain is like a lightbulb on a dimmer, which starts dark and becomes bright while developing.
Your belief (with all due respect) that their "presence of mind", which turns them from a non-person to a person has to do with the moment it took a breath and the moment it sees light seems completely arbitrary. It has nothing to do with brain development, but more about reaching a finish line. You don't see this as an arbitrary qualifier?
Also you mention that "You can't have consciousness of the world until you're actually in the world". Silly me, I thought women lived in the world. (pardon the levity )
Yeah, I see your point. But I think you are oversimplifying things. It's not just about brain development; it's also about experience and individuality. Their brains might be ready for self-consciousness and consciousness of the world, but they cannot experience it until they are born. And I don't think spending one's entire existence inside another person's womb counts as experiencing the world or being independent. Also, is not breathing air one of the biological characteristics that defines us as human beings? And birth is not a completely arbitrary qualifier. A butterfly is not a butterfly until it emerges from its cocoon. An acorn is not an oak tree until it sprouts from the ground.
At what point, then, do you think a fertilized egg becomes an actual person?
My veiws dont change with or with out weed well.... i guess... if i had to chose, i'm pro choice. i'm always for the individual's choice.
And I've come to be able to respect that. I disagree 100%, but respect the opinion. Though I do wish we had a society with zero abortions...and yes, I'm all for more sex education.
are you under the mistaken impression that abortions are a modern procedure???
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Comments
3. remove an embryo from its motherhost and it will not be able to sustain its own life.
4. remove an early gestational foetus from its motherhost and it will not be able to sustain its own life.
5. its my body so fuck off.
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Something like that. You can't have consciousness of the world until you're actually in the world. You can't have consciousness of yourself as an individual until you have consciousness of others. You can't learn to reason while your very limited "actions" don't yet create consistent reactions. You can't be an individual while you are still a growth within someone else.
Do you have a better theory?
Of course. Not every conscious being has a will to live.
And... here we go...
I guess that depends on how you define "beating" and "heart".
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???
Sure. He's not very capable of communicating his decision, but he is capable of having a conscious will to live. My cats have a conscious will to live, even though they can't talk to me about it.
A fetus is not a baby.
thanks... i love my attitude.
and i would think choosing not to bring an unwanted child into a fucked up situation would be considered taking responsible. but oops... i forgot... bringing a pregnancy to term against my will and then handing off my unwanted child to unknown people is the only acceptable response to the situation.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Oh so you can do whatever you want, and justify having an abortion by saying well i don't want a child so I am just going to kill it. Your a joke of a human, and clearly don't value life. Start taking responsibility for your actions, you can't live your life doing whatever you want and not accept the consequences. Sometime you need to make sacrifices, you would understand if you had a child.
I am one who hopes the woman choose one of the other options available to her, other than abortion. But, that is not my call to make. That is hers and she must live with the consequences of her decision.
My number one option I would hope she chooses... avoid the pregnancy in the first place. Through education, arm her with the knowledge of consequences of having unprotected sex without the birth control options in place. She can choose condoms, diaphrams, the pill, blow jobs, anal or not having sex in the first place.... her choices.
I believe that if the Anti-Abortion... yes, people who support the death penalty and wars of choosing (not necessity) cannot call themselves "Pro-Life"... if the Anti-Abortion people focused their efforts, their money and their abundance of fanaticism towards sex education, they may help to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and help solve their own problem.
...
I am against the Death Penalty because I have learned that there are people on Death Row that that are innocent. Even if it's just a few, killing an innocent man through lethal injection... isn't that called 'Murder'?
I have learned about the ambitions of prosecutors wanting high conviction to support a 'Tough on Crime' stance for political purposes. I have also read of detectives looking for promotions, with heftier pensions, who want a good arrest/conviction rate. The justice system may be the best we've got... but, it isn't perfect.
And I could never be the one that would flip the switch, pull the trigger or press the plunger that ends another person's life... however heinous the crime was... just on that rare chance that he was railroaded on to Death Row because of other's career ambitions. It is too much for me to carry and maintain a clear conscience.
Prison is a horrible place and a suitable punishment for the criminals amongst us. They may still be alive, but are they living free?
Hail, Hail!!!
clearly you have no idea who youre talking to and yet you sit there hiding behind the anonymity of the internet judging people and making outrageous suppositions.
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+1
Neil deGrasse Tyson
Why not (V) (°,,,,°) (V) ?
A child is not a consequence.
Excellent point, MR. Jam!
So was I.
im laughing at you.
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I do have a better theory. That fetuses are indeed people, and their "presence of mind" develops as their body develops. I remember a professor in college put it best that the brain is like a lightbulb on a dimmer, which starts dark and becomes bright while developing.
Your belief (with all due respect) that their "presence of mind", which turns them from a non-person to a person has to do with the moment it took a breath and the moment it sees light seems completely arbitrary. It has nothing to do with brain development, but more about reaching a finish line. You don't see this as an arbitrary qualifier?
Also you mention that "You can't have consciousness of the world until you're actually in the world". Silly me, I thought women lived in the world. (pardon the levity
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Personally I think this is a copout answer. And it is becoming a very common answer.
Now that I think about it, probably not a copout answer but an answer from someone that just really hadn't made up your mind yet. That's ok, but this is 1 issue where I feel (in my own opinion only) you have to fall on 1 of 2 sides. Abortion is either murder or it isn't.
What if your Pro Choice Anti Abortion, your against Abortion but against Anti Choice More?
is this a cop out or a crediable stance?
being prochoice means you allow a woman to make up her own mind about what is best for her situation. it doesnt mean telling her she should abort just cause she can. and it also doesnt mean forcing her to carry a pregnancy to term against her will.
take a good look
this could be the day
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lie beside me
i just need to say
And this is you off of weed because of your job? I'd hate to read you on it.
So, you dislike the anti-abortion crowd (if you want to keep using negative terms for the other side of the argument, go ahead, but there are worse terms for the other side too) enough to be ok with abortion?
Well, if you think it's a life, then I don't know how you could support it. And if you don't think it's a life, I don't see how you could defend invading someone's personal medical decisions. So I think you'd have to be on 1 side or the other.
Exactly, it isn't making a decision on the subject.
My veiws dont change with or with out weed
And I've come to be able to respect that. I disagree 100%, but respect the opinion. Though I do wish we had a society with zero abortions...and yes, I'm all for more sex education.
its not our decision to make. hence the choice part.
if a woman feels she needs to terminate her pregnancy for whatever reason then who am i to tell her NO she must carry to term.
if a woman decides that she will continue a pregnancy and give birth then who am i to say NO you must abort that foetus.
deciding to have an abortion is a difficult decision. deciding to continue on with a pregnancy is also a difficult decision. to make it more difficult by telllng a woman her decision is wrong is just bullshit imo.
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Yeah, I see your point. But I think you are oversimplifying things. It's not just about brain development; it's also about experience and individuality. Their brains might be ready for self-consciousness and consciousness of the world, but they cannot experience it until they are born. And I don't think spending one's entire existence inside another person's womb counts as experiencing the world or being independent. Also, is not breathing air one of the biological characteristics that defines us as human beings? And birth is not a completely arbitrary qualifier. A butterfly is not a butterfly until it emerges from its cocoon. An acorn is not an oak tree until it sprouts from the ground.
At what point, then, do you think a fertilized egg becomes an actual person?
are you under the mistaken impression that abortions are a modern procedure???
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