The difference between the death penalty and abortion

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mikepegg44 wrote:

Let's Say that life does indeed begin at conception for the sake of argument.

If I were to force a woman to gain ~30 pounds, make her ill, give her possible complications that could kill her, keep her in bed for months, and all the other things that can go on in a pregnancy (too many to name) I would be put in jail for abuse and possible attempted murder.

If the only way that woman was able to avoid those things I was doing was to kill me, it would be justifiable. In my mind the same goes for a fetus. If there is a way(and I am not sur if there is but it seems pretty far fetched to me) to remove a fetus from a woman without killing it and take it to full term, it would no longer be justified to kill it. Until that day comes abortion is just fine with me.

... but anyone who wants one should be able to get it in a safe environment. Morally they will have to square that with themselves.

I completely agree.

If a murderer does those things that I was talking about earlier it is justifiable in my mind to kill them... as punishment for their crime.

I completely disagree.

CJMST3K

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

....jumping in, throwing a hand grenade, then jumping out....

scb wrote:

1. A fetus is not a person.

How do you define "a person"?

scb wrote:

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

Babies that are 3 days old also fit the above description. People in a coma fit the above description too. Is there a difference between them and a fetus, in regards to a conscious will to live?

scb wrote:

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

Except for people who confess to a crime and ask to be put to death (however rare the circumstance). Would you agree?


...I love a reasoned debate from everyone.

1. Characteristics of a person include individuality, the development of self-consciousness and consciousness of the world around it, and development of the ability for rational thought.

2. Babies that are 3 days old and people in a coma do not fit that description. A fetus has not developed a consciousness of itself or the world; babies and people in comas have.

If I person is put to death only because he asked to be put to death, then that's not the death penalty.

Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.

How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?

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CJMST3K wrote:

Fair enough point. Though I would put it a different way.

Imagine the next person you see... lets say a 15 year old kid... were to be suddenly put into a room all by themself and their memory erased. All he/she knows is that they're in this room sitting in a chair.

...now lets say that the fact that he/she is in the room makes someone periodically feel ill. Is that enough reason to terminate him/her? Keeping in mind he/she didn't ask to be put in the room.

(not taking sides - I'm playing a logic exercise )

I don't think that's a good analogy.

1) The person in the room is a person. He has self-awareness and the capacity for rational thought. A fetus is/does not. Does he WANT to live? Once he is capable of making that decision, it's his to make. A fetus is not capable of making that decision.

2) The discription of someone periodically feeling ill is not representative of many women's experience of pregnancy.

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CJMST3K wrote:

Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.

How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?

Do you mean they're devoid of the will to live or they're devoid of the consciousness of their will?

I think this happens when we are born.

BinauralJam

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.

How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?

Do you mean they're devoid of the will to live or they're devoid of the consciousness of their will?

I think this happens when we are born.

My sister 41 years old, i've seen no evidence of this.

CJMST3K

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.

How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?

Do you mean they're devoid of the will to live or they're devoid of the consciousness of their will?

I think this happens when we are born.

So your belief is that a fetus/baby does not have enough "presence of mind" (to simplify your list of qualifications) until the moment it sees light and takes a breath... is that correct? So, like 1 second into being outside of the host, their thought process at that moment changes them into a "person", which they were not a moment before. Is this correct?

...and as far as what I mean, my intent is to say is there a circumstance when a "person" (by your definition of person) does not "have a conscious will to live"?

BinauralJam

I've known women who have had multiable abortions, that's where i really get upset, i'm pro choice, but it's not a form of birth control. one mistake, a rape , something like that o.k., at some point you have to take responsibility of your actions.

catefrances

KO282453 wrote:

I've known women who have had multiable abortions, that's where i really get upset, i'm pro choice, but it's not a form of birth control. one mistake, a rape , something like that o.k., at some point you have to take responsibility of your actions.

so you dont see that making a conscious decision to NOT bring an unwanted child into the world is taking responsibility?? must a women be forced to carry a foetus to term??? will that teach her some sort of responsibility???

and what do you care how many abortions a woman has?? how is it your business??

unsung

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

Does said fetus have a beating heart?

Does a murderer have a heart?

unsung

scb wrote:

I don't think that's a good analogy.

1) The person in the room is a person. He has self-awareness and the capacity for rational thought. A fetus is/does not. Does he WANT to live? Once he is capable of making that decision, it's his to make. A fetus is not capable of making that decision.

So is a two month old baby capable of making that decision?

catefrances

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

3. remove an embryo from its motherhost and it will not be able to sustain its own life.

4. remove an early gestational foetus from its motherhost and it will not be able to sustain its own life.

5. its my body so fuck off.

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CJMST3K wrote:

scb wrote:

CJMST3K wrote:

Are there any circumstances a human would find themselves devoid of a conscious will to live? I thought newborns and those who are in a coma were two good examples.

How many seconds/minutes/hours/days into a newborn's life until it's developed 1) a sense of individuality, 2) consciousness of itself or world around it?

Do you mean they're devoid of the will to live or they're devoid of the consciousness of their will?

I think this happens when we are born.

So your belief is that a fetus/baby does not have enough "presence of mind" (to simplify your list of qualifications) until the moment it sees light and takes a breath... is that correct? So, like 1 second into being outside of the host, their thought process at that moment changes them into a "person", which they were not a moment before. Is this correct?

Something like that. You can't have consciousness of the world until you're actually in the world. You can't have consciousness of yourself as an individual until you have consciousness of others. You can't learn to reason while your very limited "actions" don't yet create consistent reactions. You can't be an individual while you are still a growth within someone else.

Do you have a better theory?

...and as far as what I mean, my intent is to say is there a circumstance when a "person" (by your definition of person) does not "have a conscious will to live"?

Of course. Not every conscious being has a will to live.

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KO282453 wrote:

I've known women who have had multiable abortions, that's where i really get upset, i'm pro choice, but it's not a form of birth control. one mistake, a rape , something like that o.k., at some point you have to take responsibility of your actions.

And... here we go...

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unsung wrote:

scb wrote:

I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.

Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:

1. A fetus is not a person.

2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.

The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.

Does said fetus have a beating heart?

Does a murderer have a heart?

I guess that depends on how you define "beating" and "heart".

Blockhead

catefrances wrote:

5. its my body so fuck off.

Thats a great attitude... Take no responsibilities for your actions.
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???

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unsung wrote:

scb wrote:

I don't think that's a good analogy.

1) The person in the room is a person. He has self-awareness and the capacity for rational thought. A fetus is/does not. Does he WANT to live? Once he is capable of making that decision, it's his to make. A fetus is not capable of making that decision.

So is a two month old baby capable of making that decision?

Sure. He's not very capable of communicating his decision, but he is capable of having a conscious will to live. My cats have a conscious will to live, even though they can't talk to me about it.

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HeidiJam wrote:

catefrances wrote:

5. its my body so fuck off.

Thats a great attitude... Take no responsibilities for your actions.
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???

A fetus is not a baby.

catefrances

HeidiJam wrote:

catefrances wrote:

5. its my body so fuck off.

Thats a great attitude... Take no responsibilities for your actions.
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???

thanks... i love my attitude.

and i would think choosing not to bring an unwanted child into a fucked up situation would be considered taking responsible. but oops... i forgot... bringing a pregnancy to term against my will and then handing off my unwanted child to unknown people is the only acceptable response to the situation.

Blockhead

catefrances wrote:

HeidiJam wrote:

catefrances wrote:

5. its my body so fuck off.

Thats a great attitude... Take no responsibilities for your actions.
And you wonder why the humna race is so mess up... You will kill your own baby so you don't have to change your lifestyle but you'll cry over a dead tree???

thanks... i love my attitude.

and i would think choosing not to bring an unwanted child into a fucked up situation would be considered taking responsible. but oops... i forgot... bringing a pregnancy to term against my will and then handing off my unwanted child to unknown people is the only acceptable response to the situation.

Oh so you can do whatever you want, and justify having an abortion by saying well i don't want a child so I am just going to kill it. Your a joke of a human, and clearly don't value life. Start taking responsibility for your actions, you can't live your life doing whatever you want and not accept the consequences. Sometime you need to make sacrifices, you would understand if you had a child.

Cosmo

I am Pro Choice. Not Pro Abortion... Pro CHOICE. I believe that it is the ultimate decision of the woman to choose... not mine... not yours... not the govenment... not the chruch.
I am one who hopes the woman choose one of the other options available to her, other than abortion. But, that is not my call to make. That is hers and she must live with the consequences of her decision.
My number one option I would hope she chooses... avoid the pregnancy in the first place. Through education, arm her with the knowledge of consequences of having unprotected sex without the birth control options in place. She can choose condoms, diaphrams, the pill, blow jobs, anal or not having sex in the first place.... her choices.
I believe that if the Anti-Abortion... yes, people who support the death penalty and wars of choosing (not necessity) cannot call themselves "Pro-Life"... if the Anti-Abortion people focused their efforts, their money and their abundance of fanaticism towards sex education, they may help to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies and help solve their own problem.
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I am against the Death Penalty because I have learned that there are people on Death Row that that are innocent. Even if it's just a few, killing an innocent man through lethal injection... isn't that called 'Murder'?
I have learned about the ambitions of prosecutors wanting high conviction to support a 'Tough on Crime' stance for political purposes. I have also read of detectives looking for promotions, with heftier pensions, who want a good arrest/conviction rate. The justice system may be the best we've got... but, it isn't perfect.
And I could never be the one that would flip the switch, pull the trigger or press the plunger that ends another person's life... however heinous the crime was... just on that rare chance that he was railroaded on to Death Row because of other's career ambitions. It is too much for me to carry and maintain a clear conscience.
Prison is a horrible place and a suitable punishment for the criminals amongst us. They may still be alive, but are they living free?