Yes it is. An embryo is not a baby. A foetus is a baby. Are you seriously telling me that you find a difference between a baby born at 24 weeks gestation and a baby born at 34, or 40? They are all babies. An embryo becomes a foetus when it's heart beats, it has a circulatory system and the beginnings of a brain. (I am sure someone on here will correct me, but as far as I am aware this all happens somewhere between 4 and 6 weeks into a pregnancy). I have had 4 children, and did I consider them babies from that point? YES. Do I support a woman's right to choice whether to have that child? YES. Do I morally think it's right to abort a perfectly healthy embyro/foetus? Honestly, that is a VERY tricky and emotive question. I think there are times when this is a better alternative to having the child because of many many reasons, but overall I don't think abortion should be used as a form of birth control.
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but I had to say something to this one. A foetus IS a baby, and embryo isn't. As far as I am concerned, once a foetus can sustain life (whether with medical help or not), outside the mother's uterus, then it's a baby.
I hope I am never in that position to have to choose whether to abort a child, because I don't know if I could live with myself if I did it, BUT I fully believe that women should have access to safe abortion clinics because it's not completely cut and dried.
Actually I meant a pregnancy that has progressed for 3 months. So, 6 months premature. They can live.
Yeah, you're right, memory is different than self awareness, but i think they can be tied together to a degree. There have been many, many studies to decipher when self-awareness is achieved, but it is nearly impossible to determine.
A foetus born at 12 -14 weeks cannot survive. A foetus born at 24 -26 weeks needs intensive medical care for a long time, and they MAY survive.
Yes it is. An embryo is not a baby. A foetus is a baby. Are you seriously telling me that you find a difference between a baby born at 24 weeks gestation and a baby born at 34, or 40? They are all babies. An embryo becomes a foetus when it's heart beats, it has a circulatory system and the beginnings of a brain. (I am sure someone on here will correct me, but as far as I am aware this all happens somewhere between 4 and 6 weeks into a pregnancy). I have had 4 children, and did I consider them babies from that point? YES. Do I support a woman's right to choice whether to have that child? YES. Do I morally think it's right to abort a perfectly healthy embyro/foetus? Honestly, that is a VERY tricky and emotive question. I think there are times when this is a better alternative to having the child because of many many reasons, but overall I don't think abortion should be used as a form of birth control.
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but I had to say something to this one. A foetus IS a baby, and embryo isn't. As far as I am concerned, once a foetus can sustain life (whether with medical help or not), outside the mother's uterus, then it's a baby.
I hope I am never in that position to have to choose whether to abort a child, because I don't know if I could live with myself if I did it, BUT I fully believe that women should have access to safe abortion clinics because it's not completely cut and dried.
an embryo becomes a foetus around the 12 week mark. is there a difference between a 12 week foetus and a 38 week foetus?? of course there is and its a huge difference..developmentally. emotionally??? that would be subjective. a wanted pregnancy woud be seen very much as baby from early on where as an unwanted pregnancy would not.
hear my name
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this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
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scb made it clear. Based on its first breath and seeing light and being able to interact. In that one-second, it becomes a person, and literally not a second earlier.
...that's a completely arbitrary way of determining if it's a "person" if you ask me.
And yet you haven't answered my question about when, and by what less arbitrary standard, you think a fertilized egg becomes a person.
I apologize, I missed your question. IMO it is life when cells begin to divide and a person when it could survive being born.
Oh, no, I was talking to CJMST3K above - though I'm interested in your perspective too. So how do you feel about abortion when the fetus cannot survive being born?
Yes it is. An embryo is not a baby. A foetus is a baby. Are you seriously telling me that you find a difference between a baby born at 24 weeks gestation and a baby born at 34, or 40? They are all babies. An embryo becomes a foetus when it's heart beats, it has a circulatory system and the beginnings of a brain. (I am sure someone on here will correct me, but as far as I am aware this all happens somewhere between 4 and 6 weeks into a pregnancy). I have had 4 children, and did I consider them babies from that point? YES. Do I support a woman's right to choice whether to have that child? YES. Do I morally think it's right to abort a perfectly healthy embyro/foetus? Honestly, that is a VERY tricky and emotive question. I think there are times when this is a better alternative to having the child because of many many reasons, but overall I don't think abortion should be used as a form of birth control.
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but I had to say something to this one. A foetus IS a baby, and embryo isn't. As far as I am concerned, once a foetus can sustain life (whether with medical help or not), outside the mother's uterus, then it's a baby.
I hope I am never in that position to have to choose whether to abort a child, because I don't know if I could live with myself if I did it, BUT I fully believe that women should have access to safe abortion clinics because it's not completely cut and dried.
Well I certainly agree that it's not completely cut and dry. But I don't understand if you're saying it's a baby at 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 24 weeks, 34 weeks, or where. As you said, it's heart beats (in sort of a way) in the first trimester but it can't sustain life outside the mother's uterus until the 3rd trimester. :?
Take whatever position you want, but please be sure that it's based on factual information.
Well then I'll consider it a productive thread! I'll caution you to be careful where you do your research though. Most of the stuff you'll probably find on the internet is total bullshit. (And the reason I feel compelled to tell you this is because you seemed to believe the internet bullshit that was posted about the "common" forms of abortion.)
Yes it is. An embryo is not a baby. A foetus is a baby. Are you seriously telling me that you find a difference between a baby born at 24 weeks gestation and a baby born at 34, or 40? They are all babies. An embryo becomes a foetus when it's heart beats, it has a circulatory system and the beginnings of a brain. (I am sure someone on here will correct me, but as far as I am aware this all happens somewhere between 4 and 6 weeks into a pregnancy). I have had 4 children, and did I consider them babies from that point? YES. Do I support a woman's right to choice whether to have that child? YES. Do I morally think it's right to abort a perfectly healthy embyro/foetus? Honestly, that is a VERY tricky and emotive question. I think there are times when this is a better alternative to having the child because of many many reasons, but overall I don't think abortion should be used as a form of birth control.
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but I had to say something to this one. A foetus IS a baby, and embryo isn't. As far as I am concerned, once a foetus can sustain life (whether with medical help or not), outside the mother's uterus, then it's a baby.
I hope I am never in that position to have to choose whether to abort a child, because I don't know if I could live with myself if I did it, BUT I fully believe that women should have access to safe abortion clinics because it's not completely cut and dried.
Well I certainly agree that it's not completely cut and dry. But I don't understand if you're saying it's a baby at 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 24 weeks, 34 weeks, or where. As you said, it's heart beats (in sort of a way) in the first trimester but it can't sustain life outside the mother's uterus until the 3rd trimester. :?
Around the 9 week mark I believe is when an embryo becomes a foetus. A baby can sustain life outside the womb from late in the second trimester, although it is difficult, it can be done. And as for saying it's a baby - well to me it always was. Ask someone who has had a miscarriage at 11 weeks, or 15 weeks or even at 7 or 8 weeks, when they REALLY wanted a baby, whether that child was real to them, and they will say yes. So no, definitely not cut and dried, and completely emotional. To me - once it's heart starts beating at around the 6 -7 week mark, it's a baby. This is my personal opinion, and I understand there are reasons women choose to have an abortion, and I fully support that right. I'm just saying that I don't know if I could do that, unless their was a valid (in my opinion) reason, such as a medical one, or the pregnancy being the result of rape. Just my opinion, and others are certainly entitled to theirs.
"Unborn babies at 20 weeks development actually feel pain more intensely than adults. This is a "uniquely vulnerable time, since the pain system is fully established, yet the higher level pain-modifying system has barely begun to develop," according to Dr. Paul Ranalli. http://www.gargaro.com/fetalpain.html
"Having administered anesthesia for fetal surgery, I know that on occasion we need to administer anesthesia directly to the fetus, because even at these early gestational ages the fetus moves away from the pain of the stimulation," stated David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology and self-described as "pro-choice," in testimony before the U.S. Congress.
2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.
The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.
So, if a fetus is able to feel pain and have the reaction to move away from it, does it not have the will to survive? under this logic, I think it is killing a fetus against his/her will.
I'm sorry but I am much more prone to kill a convicted murderer (and i am against the DP) than an innocent unborn child that can feel pain.
Regarding movement supposedly demonstrating a conscious will to live: I don't think this is true. (And neither do the medical journals.) Various forms of life - including plants - have reflexes to certain stimuli. That does not mean they have a consciousness. If you think it does, do you think plants have a consciousness?
Regarding your link about fetal pain: I'm just reading it now and the first things I noticed is that it's a link to the pro-life blog of a woman with no scientific background who is providing her summary of a lecture she heard. I can't see where you pulled the quotes from.
A quick literature review of the medical journals, however, provides a host of peer-reviewed articles that dispute your assertion. Here's the one I thought summed it up best:
This paper examines anatomical and psychological developments in
the fetus to assess the possibility of fetal pain. Neurobiological features that develop at 7, 18 and
26 weeks gestation suggest an experience of pain in utero. Pain, however, cannot be inferred from
these features because they are not informative about the state of consciousness of the fetus and
cannot account for the content of any presumed pain experience. We may be confident the fetus
does not experience pain because unique in utero neuroinhibitors and a lack of psychological
development maintain unconsciousness and prevent conscious pain experience. Before an infant can
experience sensations and emotions, the elements of experience must have their own independent
existence in the infant’s mind. This is achieved after birth through discoveries made in action and in
patterns of adjustment and interaction with a caregiver.
CJMST3K - I thought you might find that last bit interesting. I hope it at least shows that I'm not just completely pulling arbitrary baseless shit out of my ass.
Around the 9 week mark I believe is when an embryo becomes a foetus. A baby can sustain life outside the womb from late in the second trimester, although it is difficult, it can be done. And as for saying it's a baby - well to me it always was. Ask someone who has had a miscarriage at 11 weeks, or 15 weeks or even at 7 or 8 weeks, when they REALLY wanted a baby, whether that child was real to them, and they will say yes. So no, definitely not cut and dried, and completely emotional. To me - once it's heart starts beating at around the 6 -7 week mark, it's a baby. This is my personal opinion, and I understand there are reasons women choose to have an abortion, and I fully support that right. I'm just saying that I don't know if I could do that, unless their was a valid (in my opinion) reason, such as a medical one, or the pregnancy being the result of rape. Just my opinion, and others are certainly entitled to theirs.
I agree that many people - whether they wanted a baby or not - feel that embyros and fetuses are babies to them and I think their feelings are valid. But I don't think people's subjective feelings are relevant to biology. After all, if a woman's feelings could will an embryo or fetus into really being a baby, then a woman's feelings could also will an embryo or fetus into not being a baby - and I don't think either of us believe the latter is true.
I agree that many people - whether they wanted a baby or not - feel that embyros and fetuses are babies to them and I think their feelings are valid. But I don't think people's subjective feelings are relevant to biology. After all, if a woman's feelings could will an embryo or fetus into really being a baby, then a woman's feelings could also will an embryo or fetus into not being a baby - and I don't think either of us believe the latter is true.
People's feelings aren't relevant to biology in this regard. But to say that a foetus isn't a baby is not something I will ever agree to. And it's ok that people have differing opinions on the matter. If we were all the same the world would be a pretty boring place I'd have to say. I can only give my opinion, and it comes from having 4 children (as well as an ectopic pregnancy).....They were real to me from the second I knew I was pregnant. But I'm not narrow minded enough to not see the other side of the coin. I can see the point people make when they don't want a child and they discover they are pregnant - so they abort. I just personally believe in this day and age when the majority of people living in Western society have relatively cheap and easy access to all sorts of birth control methods, that abortion simply for that sake shouldn't be considered an option. For me, the issue is too filled with emotion to ever be able to say that a baby inside the womb isn't a baby, because it is. Yes, you can be pedantic and say that it only becomes a baby once it can sustain life - but then what would you say to the people that have buried a baby born at 20 weeks for example? Would you say that the baby that they got to hold for half an hour (even though it was not breathing), the baby that looked in every respect like a tiny version of a baby born at 36 weeks, was NOT a baby? That they shouldn't grieve because it wasn't really a baby? Whatever people believe - the fact of the matter is, is that barring any medical/health issues - that embryo/foetus/baby WILL turn out to be a human being in the flesh somewhere between 8 and 10 months after conception...sometimes earlier.
Would you tell the parents of a new born child who is having a heel prick done, that their baby isn't feeling pain because pain can only be a learned response? From my own experience this is not true. Every one of my children cried when given a needle or a heel prick or anything like that - and at 5 minutes old, there is no way they had 'learned' that behaviour or emotion. It's real - it exists. Does it exist in the womb? I don't know and don't pretend to, but I have a hard time believing that a baby learns that pain exists in the space of time it takes them to be born. That they can't feel pain inside the womb, but they can outside? That just doesn't sound right to me. And this is something that for a long time at least - no one will ever really know. You can't exactly ask them before they are born if they feel pain, now can you?
At the end of the day - I fully support a woman's right to choose, and I would never judge her for it. I would just personally have a hard time making that decision, but perhaps that's because of my children? Perhaps it's just my genetic makeup. I honestly believe though, that access to medical services that allow abortion, is necessary to prevent endangering women's lives with unsafe procedures.
They are iffy on the death penalty and I don't see anything on their actual platform that would suggest they are for it or against it (See item 1.5).
They are for gun rights because they don't want the government dictating our right to bear arms (see item 1.6).
And they are for gay rights "Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws." (See item 1.3)
As for being a vegetarian, I don't think they are against it but everyone will secretly talk about you behind your back .
Around the 9 week mark I believe is when an embryo becomes a foetus. A baby can sustain life outside the womb from late in the second trimester, although it is difficult, it can be done. And as for saying it's a baby - well to me it always was. Ask someone who has had a miscarriage at 11 weeks, or 15 weeks or even at 7 or 8 weeks, when they REALLY wanted a baby, whether that child was real to them, and they will say yes. So no, definitely not cut and dried, and completely emotional. To me - once it's heart starts beating at around the 6 -7 week mark, it's a baby. This is my personal opinion, and I understand there are reasons women choose to have an abortion, and I fully support that right. I'm just saying that I don't know if I could do that, unless their was a valid (in my opinion) reason, such as a medical one, or the pregnancy being the result of rape. Just my opinion, and others are certainly entitled to theirs.
I agree that many people - whether they wanted a baby or not - feel that embyros and fetuses are babies to them and I think their feelings are valid. But I don't think people's subjective feelings are relevant to biology. After all, if a woman's feelings could will an embryo or fetus into really being a baby, then a woman's feelings could also will an embryo or fetus into not being a baby - and I don't think either of us believe the latter is true.
I think Stardust has given valid points. Your refusal to acknowledge a fetus as a baby at some point during the 9 month pregnancy period is somewhat baffling to me. Don't take that as a personal attack, but I believe that you are so set on defending your beliefs that you are not considering some of the counter-points that are being presented on this thread.
Take whatever position you want, but please be sure that it's based on factual information.
Well then I'll consider it a productive thread! I'll caution you to be careful where you do your research though. Most of the stuff you'll probably find on the internet is total bullshit. (And the reason I feel compelled to tell you this is because you seemed to believe the internet bullshit that was posted about the "common" forms of abortion.)
I'm sure all of your internet sources are the only true, non-bs ones huh?
Take whatever position you want, but please be sure that it's based on factual information.
Well then I'll consider it a productive thread! I'll caution you to be careful where you do your research though. Most of the stuff you'll probably find on the internet is total bullshit. (And the reason I feel compelled to tell you this is because you seemed to believe the internet bullshit that was posted about the "common" forms of abortion.)
Gimli 1993
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Actually I meant a pregnancy that has progressed for 3 months. So, 6 months premature. They can live.
Please provide some evidence that this is possible and statistics indicating what the chances are.
Google it. I have read very rare instances. Obviosly 3 months sounds ridiculous. But it definitely happens at 5-6 months. But this has nothing to do with how prevalent it is. The point is, that a typical 9 month pregnancy is a lousy way of defining a person/baby/will to live/consiousness.This is about the fact that if ANY premature baby can survive, can it be considerd a person?
it is a living organism. I am the kind of person that doesnt kill bugs in my house. I catch them and release them outside. I can't imagine killing a baby, at ANY stage of development.
It has been proven that a fetus at 20 weeks can feel pain and does react to it.
Here are some common procedures for abortion:
Partial-birth abortion - The unborn baby is delivered feet first, except for the head, which is punctured at the base of the skull with a sharp object. The brain is then suctioned out, killing the child. (This method was outlawed in the United States in 2007.)
Dilation and Evacuation - Sharp-edged instruments are used to grasp, twist and tear the baby’s body into pieces, which are then removed from the womb.
Saline abortion - Salt water is injected into the womb through the mother’s abdomen. The unborn baby swallows this fluid, is poisoned and dies in a process that sometimes takes 24 hours. The toxic saline solution causes severe burns over the unborn child’s entire body.
It's not true.
it is true. do some research. how do you think it happens?
Maybe today more commonly they use drugs, or that good old suction device to suck out all the babies parts and placenta
CJMST3K - I thought you might find that last bit interesting. I hope it at least shows that I'm not just completely pulling arbitrary baseless shit out of my ass.
I guess David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology is clueless huh? I wouldnt call his findings arbitrary baseless shit out of anyones ass.
I was just giving instances that I thought might make people think differently. I thought that if anyone was to see how terrible abortion is, and SOME of the instances of how it is performed, some people might think twice about it and not just live by the arbitrary baseless, unscientific ideals that a baby isnt a person before it comes out of its mother.
PS-i am not debating whether abortion is right or not (I do believe it is the womans chioce), Once again, I just don't see how KILLING an innocent LIVING being via abortion is any better than killing a lunatic convicted murderer.
I agree that many people - whether they wanted a baby or not - feel that embyros and fetuses are babies to them and I think their feelings are valid. But I don't think people's subjective feelings are relevant to biology. After all, if a woman's feelings could will an embryo or fetus into really being a baby, then a woman's feelings could also will an embryo or fetus into not being a baby - and I don't think either of us believe the latter is true.
People's feelings aren't relevant to biology in this regard. But to say that a foetus isn't a baby is not something I will ever agree to. And it's ok that people have differing opinions on the matter. If we were all the same the world would be a pretty boring place I'd have to say. I can only give my opinion, and it comes from having 4 children (as well as an ectopic pregnancy).....They were real to me from the second I knew I was pregnant. But I'm not narrow minded enough to not see the other side of the coin. I can see the point people make when they don't want a child and they discover they are pregnant - so they abort. I just personally believe in this day and age when the majority of people living in Western society have relatively cheap and easy access to all sorts of birth control methods, that abortion simply for that sake shouldn't be considered an option. For me, the issue is too filled with emotion to ever be able to say that a baby inside the womb isn't a baby, because it is. Yes, you can be pedantic and say that it only becomes a baby once it can sustain life - but then what would you say to the people that have buried a baby born at 20 weeks for example? Would you say that the baby that they got to hold for half an hour (even though it was not breathing), the baby that looked in every respect like a tiny version of a baby born at 36 weeks, was NOT a baby? That they shouldn't grieve because it wasn't really a baby? Whatever people believe - the fact of the matter is, is that barring any medical/health issues - that embryo/foetus/baby WILL turn out to be a human being in the flesh somewhere between 8 and 10 months after conception...sometimes earlier.
Would you tell the parents of a new born child who is having a heel prick done, that their baby isn't feeling pain because pain can only be a learned response? From my own experience this is not true. Every one of my children cried when given a needle or a heel prick or anything like that - and at 5 minutes old, there is no way they had 'learned' that behaviour or emotion. It's real - it exists. Does it exist in the womb? I don't know and don't pretend to, but I have a hard time believing that a baby learns that pain exists in the space of time it takes them to be born. That they can't feel pain inside the womb, but they can outside? That just doesn't sound right to me. And this is something that for a long time at least - no one will ever really know. You can't exactly ask them before they are born if they feel pain, now can you?
At the end of the day - I fully support a woman's right to choose, and I would never judge her for it. I would just personally have a hard time making that decision, but perhaps that's because of my children? Perhaps it's just my genetic makeup. I honestly believe though, that access to medical services that allow abortion, is necessary to prevent endangering women's lives with unsafe procedures.
this is the best thing i've ever read on here. This is about personal experience too, not all about statisticcs, what links and what journal said waht. It is about killing a living being. its great that we all have our views though on what is ok and what is not.
Comments
yes they do.. its called survival instinct.
take a good look
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yes.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
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i just need to say
what a horrid thought.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Yes it is. An embryo is not a baby. A foetus is a baby. Are you seriously telling me that you find a difference between a baby born at 24 weeks gestation and a baby born at 34, or 40? They are all babies. An embryo becomes a foetus when it's heart beats, it has a circulatory system and the beginnings of a brain. (I am sure someone on here will correct me, but as far as I am aware this all happens somewhere between 4 and 6 weeks into a pregnancy). I have had 4 children, and did I consider them babies from that point? YES. Do I support a woman's right to choice whether to have that child? YES. Do I morally think it's right to abort a perfectly healthy embyro/foetus? Honestly, that is a VERY tricky and emotive question. I think there are times when this is a better alternative to having the child because of many many reasons, but overall I don't think abortion should be used as a form of birth control.
I haven't read through all the posts in this thread, but I had to say something to this one. A foetus IS a baby, and embryo isn't. As far as I am concerned, once a foetus can sustain life (whether with medical help or not), outside the mother's uterus, then it's a baby.
I hope I am never in that position to have to choose whether to abort a child, because I don't know if I could live with myself if I did it, BUT I fully believe that women should have access to safe abortion clinics because it's not completely cut and dried.
A foetus born at 12 -14 weeks cannot survive. A foetus born at 24 -26 weeks needs intensive medical care for a long time, and they MAY survive.
And should abortion be allowed at 4 weeks? - yes.
an embryo becomes a foetus around the 12 week mark. is there a difference between a 12 week foetus and a 38 week foetus?? of course there is and its a huge difference..developmentally. emotionally??? that would be subjective. a wanted pregnancy woud be seen very much as baby from early on where as an unwanted pregnancy would not.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Oh, no, I was talking to CJMST3K above - though I'm interested in your perspective too. So how do you feel about abortion when the fetus cannot survive being born?
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
I know - I was just trying to give the guy a chance.
Thank you for answering. I wish others would as well.
Well I certainly agree that it's not completely cut and dry. But I don't understand if you're saying it's a baby at 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 24 weeks, 34 weeks, or where. As you said, it's heart beats (in sort of a way) in the first trimester but it can't sustain life outside the mother's uterus until the 3rd trimester. :?
Thank you for answering. Is there a particular gestational age at which you think it should no longer be allowed?
Well then I'll consider it a productive thread!
Around the 9 week mark I believe is when an embryo becomes a foetus. A baby can sustain life outside the womb from late in the second trimester, although it is difficult, it can be done. And as for saying it's a baby - well to me it always was. Ask someone who has had a miscarriage at 11 weeks, or 15 weeks or even at 7 or 8 weeks, when they REALLY wanted a baby, whether that child was real to them, and they will say yes. So no, definitely not cut and dried, and completely emotional. To me - once it's heart starts beating at around the 6 -7 week mark, it's a baby. This is my personal opinion, and I understand there are reasons women choose to have an abortion, and I fully support that right. I'm just saying that I don't know if I could do that, unless their was a valid (in my opinion) reason, such as a medical one, or the pregnancy being the result of rape. Just my opinion, and others are certainly entitled to theirs.
yeah......abortion......that's why I always do girls in the pooper, no need to think about this question then!
HAHA!!! Well, point taken - so.....wuss status revoked.
Regarding movement supposedly demonstrating a conscious will to live: I don't think this is true. (And neither do the medical journals.) Various forms of life - including plants - have reflexes to certain stimuli. That does not mean they have a consciousness. If you think it does, do you think plants have a consciousness?
Regarding your link about fetal pain: I'm just reading it now and the first things I noticed is that it's a link to the pro-life blog of a woman with no scientific background who is providing her summary of a lecture she heard. I can't see where you pulled the quotes from.
A quick literature review of the medical journals, however, provides a host of peer-reviewed articles that dispute your assertion. Here's the one I thought summed it up best:
CJMST3K - I thought you might find that last bit interesting. I hope it at least shows that I'm not just completely pulling arbitrary baseless shit out of my ass.
I agree that many people - whether they wanted a baby or not - feel that embyros and fetuses are babies to them and I think their feelings are valid. But I don't think people's subjective feelings are relevant to biology. After all, if a woman's feelings could will an embryo or fetus into really being a baby, then a woman's feelings could also will an embryo or fetus into not being a baby - and I don't think either of us believe the latter is true.
People's feelings aren't relevant to biology in this regard. But to say that a foetus isn't a baby is not something I will ever agree to. And it's ok that people have differing opinions on the matter. If we were all the same the world would be a pretty boring place I'd have to say. I can only give my opinion, and it comes from having 4 children (as well as an ectopic pregnancy).....They were real to me from the second I knew I was pregnant. But I'm not narrow minded enough to not see the other side of the coin. I can see the point people make when they don't want a child and they discover they are pregnant - so they abort. I just personally believe in this day and age when the majority of people living in Western society have relatively cheap and easy access to all sorts of birth control methods, that abortion simply for that sake shouldn't be considered an option. For me, the issue is too filled with emotion to ever be able to say that a baby inside the womb isn't a baby, because it is. Yes, you can be pedantic and say that it only becomes a baby once it can sustain life - but then what would you say to the people that have buried a baby born at 20 weeks for example? Would you say that the baby that they got to hold for half an hour (even though it was not breathing), the baby that looked in every respect like a tiny version of a baby born at 36 weeks, was NOT a baby? That they shouldn't grieve because it wasn't really a baby? Whatever people believe - the fact of the matter is, is that barring any medical/health issues - that embryo/foetus/baby WILL turn out to be a human being in the flesh somewhere between 8 and 10 months after conception...sometimes earlier.
Would you tell the parents of a new born child who is having a heel prick done, that their baby isn't feeling pain because pain can only be a learned response? From my own experience this is not true. Every one of my children cried when given a needle or a heel prick or anything like that - and at 5 minutes old, there is no way they had 'learned' that behaviour or emotion. It's real - it exists. Does it exist in the womb? I don't know and don't pretend to, but I have a hard time believing that a baby learns that pain exists in the space of time it takes them to be born. That they can't feel pain inside the womb, but they can outside? That just doesn't sound right to me. And this is something that for a long time at least - no one will ever really know. You can't exactly ask them before they are born if they feel pain, now can you?
At the end of the day - I fully support a woman's right to choose, and I would never judge her for it. I would just personally have a hard time making that decision, but perhaps that's because of my children? Perhaps it's just my genetic makeup. I honestly believe though, that access to medical services that allow abortion, is necessary to prevent endangering women's lives with unsafe procedures.
i dont see how theyre different... but yes we'll call it splitting hairs.
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
They are iffy on the death penalty and I don't see anything on their actual platform that would suggest they are for it or against it (See item 1.5).
They are for gun rights because they don't want the government dictating our right to bear arms (see item 1.6).
And they are for gay rights "Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws." (See item 1.3)
As for being a vegetarian, I don't think they are against it but everyone will secretly talk about you behind your back
I'm sure all of your internet sources are the only true, non-bs ones huh?
And yes, I'm just kidding.
Fargo 2003
Winnipeg 2005
Winnipeg 2011
St. Paul 2014
Google it. I have read very rare instances. Obviosly 3 months sounds ridiculous. But it definitely happens at 5-6 months. But this has nothing to do with how prevalent it is. The point is, that a typical 9 month pregnancy is a lousy way of defining a person/baby/will to live/consiousness.This is about the fact that if ANY premature baby can survive, can it be considerd a person?
it is a living organism. I am the kind of person that doesnt kill bugs in my house. I catch them and release them outside. I can't imagine killing a baby, at ANY stage of development.
it is true. do some research. how do you think it happens?
Maybe today more commonly they use drugs, or that good old suction device to suck out all the babies parts and placenta
I guess David Birnbach, M.D., president of the Society for Obstetric Anesthesia and Perinatology is clueless huh? I wouldnt call his findings arbitrary baseless shit out of anyones ass.
I was just giving instances that I thought might make people think differently. I thought that if anyone was to see how terrible abortion is, and SOME of the instances of how it is performed, some people might think twice about it and not just live by the arbitrary baseless, unscientific ideals that a baby isnt a person before it comes out of its mother.
PS-i am not debating whether abortion is right or not (I do believe it is the womans chioce), Once again, I just don't see how KILLING an innocent LIVING being via abortion is any better than killing a lunatic convicted murderer.
this is the best thing i've ever read on here. This is about personal experience too, not all about statisticcs, what links and what journal said waht. It is about killing a living being. its great that we all have our views though on what is ok and what is not.