I'm starting this thread so the death penalty thread doesn't get hijacked talking about abortion.
Two of the primary differences between the death penalty and abortion are:
1. A fetus is not a person.
2. A fetus does not have a conscious will to live.
The death penalty, on the other hand, kills a person against his/her will.
This really makes me sick. does a fetus have a heart beat yes or no ? I think you know the answer to that question 23- 30 days after conception. How the hell do you know it doesn't have a conscious will to live ? WTF !!! :x :x This is why pro choice pisses me off. It's this type of flawed and plain bull shit thinking.
do you want to know when a foetus has a heartbeat or when it is detectable???
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take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
In my view the minute the sperm meets the egg and fertilises it a human being has been created...OK that creation is just a bunch of cells doing what they have to in order to be a fully fledged human but it's conception...the start of life.
I'm not anti abortion...far from it...I believe a couple (or woman on her own) deserve the right to decide when they have a child for whatever reasons are important to them...I have two 'children' aged 20 and 16 and raising them hasn't been the easiest of jobs and I did it with a partner...my 'children' (let's call them the lads from now on) the lads were both healthy and able bodied and I had it relatively easy compared to some folk...some have to face the awful prospect of an early death and life of nothing but pain for their child...I believe if the mother knows in advance what kind of life her child will have she has the right to decide whether or not to allow it to go ahead...also if the mother was raped why should she have to carry that child and raise it as a reminder every day of her life?...if she can then that's wonderful...what if she thinks she can but decides she can't as soon as the child is born?
Abortion is always going to be a very hot debate.
The death penalty...well...I'm English so I'm never confronted with it unless I read about it happening in other countries...because of that I don't feel I'm equipped with enough knowledge to give a valid debate...all I know is that people have been hung here and later found to be innocent...I would want concrete evidence that a person was guilty before I even began to decide whether they should die or not...I don't believe that killing someone because they have killed is the answer...I was all for rehabilitation but recently, in England, there was a case where a young man was found guilty of possessing indecent images of children...the young lad in question had been given a new identity following his release from prison...he had been sent to prison for murdering a toddler when he was 11...he had a new life and continued to commit crimes...his rehabilitation cost thousands but didn't work.
I think locking someone up for life and them knowing they will never walk free again or make love again or go to a family gathering again is more effective...I wouldn't allow them access to TV or newspapers and I'd make them earn the right to hear music or read books...they would have to spend the rest of their days preferring death to the life they now have...that has to be a living hell on earth which they deserve...death is the easy way out for some.
I don't understand how the legal system works in America so I have one question...why is it that a person can get the death penalty yet wait years for it to happen?...if they have been served a death sentence why don't they just take them straight from court to the chair?...that's an honest question by the way as I know nothing about how this works.
It makes much more sense to live in the present tense
this video jumps around from topic to topic but largely discusses abortion and fundamentalist views on the death penalty... good for the *gasp* factor if nothing else: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5RU2LqA ... grec_index
That is an EXCELLENT clip. I've seen it before, because I've seen the whole documentary from which is was taken. Noam Chomsky is just so articulate, and he makes excellent points.
The #1 killer of children in the world is pneumonia and the #2 killer is diarrhea (no pun intended). Together they account for 40% of child deaths in the world. Pneumonia kills about 2 million children under the age of 5 per year. That's 5,500 deaths per day. That means a small child dies of pneumonia every 15 seconds. And the treatment costs $0.27. About 1.5 million children under age 5 die from diarrhea each year. Diarrhea. Can you imagine? That means more young children die from something we think nothing of than from AIDS, malaria, & measles combined. The treatment costs less than $0.10.
A chopped up baby sign to hold outside an abortion clinic costs at least $100. For the cost of just one sign that likely never changes anyone's mind about abortion, you could save the lives of 1000 little children. Yet, given the choice to save 1000 children or buy 1 sign, these people choose the fucking sign. And then they expect us to believe that saving lives is what they're all about. :roll:
In my view the minute the sperm meets the egg and fertilises it a human being has been created...OK that creation is just a bunch of cells doing what they have to in order to be a fully fledged human but it's conception...the start of life.
You don't think conception happens at implantation?
I don't understand how the legal system works in America so I have one question...why is it that a person can get the death penalty yet wait years for it to happen?...if they have been served a death sentence why don't they just take them straight from court to the chair?...that's an honest question by the way as I know nothing about how this works.
It's usually because the sentence is appealed - like they want to get a second opinion just to be sure it was an appropriate ruling or sentence before they actually kill the person. Our justice system works incredibly slowly and the appeals process can take forever.
In my view the minute the sperm meets the egg and fertilises it a human being has been created...OK that creation is just a bunch of cells doing what they have to in order to be a fully fledged human but it's conception...the start of life.
You don't think conception happens at implantation?
No because the process of cell dividing starts immediately and by the time implantation has taken place cells have situated themselves where they need to be to form whatever organs they are to be...I was reading an article, in a British paper, that said up to 25 weeks the baby is in a perpetual state of sleep...like a coma and can't feel pain...that is why our government has decided 25 weeks is the cut off point for abortion...I've been pregnant twice and on both occasion the first proper limb movement was felt at around 25 weeks...prior to that I felt something but it was more rolling about than an obvious kick.
It makes much more sense to live in the present tense
In my view the minute the sperm meets the egg and fertilises it a human being has been created...OK that creation is just a bunch of cells doing what they have to in order to be a fully fledged human but it's conception...the start of life.
You don't think conception happens at implantation?
No because the process of cell dividing starts immediately and by the time implantation has taken place cells have situated themselves where they need to be to form whatever organs they are to be...I was reading an article, in a British paper, that said up to 25 weeks the baby is in a perpetual state of sleep...like a coma and can't feel pain...that is why our government has decided 25 weeks is the cut off point for abortion...I've been pregnant twice and on both occasion the first proper limb movement was felt at around 25 weeks...prior to that I felt something but it was more rolling about than an obvious kick.
I'd be interested in reading that article if you have a reference for me to look up.
So abortion is illegal after (at?) 25 weeks in England? Are those laws made on a nation-wide basis? Are there any exceptions? Just wondering.
Comments
do you want to know when a foetus has a heartbeat or when it is detectable???
take a good look
this could be the day
hold my hand
lie beside me
i just need to say
I'm not anti abortion...far from it...I believe a couple (or woman on her own) deserve the right to decide when they have a child for whatever reasons are important to them...I have two 'children' aged 20 and 16 and raising them hasn't been the easiest of jobs and I did it with a partner...my 'children' (let's call them the lads from now on) the lads were both healthy and able bodied and I had it relatively easy compared to some folk...some have to face the awful prospect of an early death and life of nothing but pain for their child...I believe if the mother knows in advance what kind of life her child will have she has the right to decide whether or not to allow it to go ahead...also if the mother was raped why should she have to carry that child and raise it as a reminder every day of her life?...if she can then that's wonderful...what if she thinks she can but decides she can't as soon as the child is born?
Abortion is always going to be a very hot debate.
The death penalty...well...I'm English so I'm never confronted with it unless I read about it happening in other countries...because of that I don't feel I'm equipped with enough knowledge to give a valid debate...all I know is that people have been hung here and later found to be innocent...I would want concrete evidence that a person was guilty before I even began to decide whether they should die or not...I don't believe that killing someone because they have killed is the answer...I was all for rehabilitation but recently, in England, there was a case where a young man was found guilty of possessing indecent images of children...the young lad in question had been given a new identity following his release from prison...he had been sent to prison for murdering a toddler when he was 11...he had a new life and continued to commit crimes...his rehabilitation cost thousands but didn't work.
I think locking someone up for life and them knowing they will never walk free again or make love again or go to a family gathering again is more effective...I wouldn't allow them access to TV or newspapers and I'd make them earn the right to hear music or read books...they would have to spend the rest of their days preferring death to the life they now have...that has to be a living hell on earth which they deserve...death is the easy way out for some.
I don't understand how the legal system works in America so I have one question...why is it that a person can get the death penalty yet wait years for it to happen?...if they have been served a death sentence why don't they just take them straight from court to the chair?...that's an honest question by the way as I know nothing about how this works.
That is an EXCELLENT clip. I've seen it before, because I've seen the whole documentary from which is was taken. Noam Chomsky is just so articulate, and he makes excellent points.
The #1 killer of children in the world is pneumonia and the #2 killer is diarrhea (no pun intended). Together they account for 40% of child deaths in the world. Pneumonia kills about 2 million children under the age of 5 per year. That's 5,500 deaths per day. That means a small child dies of pneumonia every 15 seconds. And the treatment costs $0.27. About 1.5 million children under age 5 die from diarrhea each year. Diarrhea. Can you imagine? That means more young children die from something we think nothing of than from AIDS, malaria, & measles combined. The treatment costs less than $0.10.
A chopped up baby sign to hold outside an abortion clinic costs at least $100. For the cost of just one sign that likely never changes anyone's mind about abortion, you could save the lives of 1000 little children. Yet, given the choice to save 1000 children or buy 1 sign, these people choose the fucking sign. And then they expect us to believe that saving lives is what they're all about. :roll:
You don't think conception happens at implantation?
It's usually because the sentence is appealed - like they want to get a second opinion just to be sure it was an appropriate ruling or sentence before they actually kill the person. Our justice system works incredibly slowly and the appeals process can take forever.
No because the process of cell dividing starts immediately and by the time implantation has taken place cells have situated themselves where they need to be to form whatever organs they are to be...I was reading an article, in a British paper, that said up to 25 weeks the baby is in a perpetual state of sleep...like a coma and can't feel pain...that is why our government has decided 25 weeks is the cut off point for abortion...I've been pregnant twice and on both occasion the first proper limb movement was felt at around 25 weeks...prior to that I felt something but it was more rolling about than an obvious kick.
I'd be interested in reading that article if you have a reference for me to look up.
So abortion is illegal after (at?) 25 weeks in England? Are those laws made on a nation-wide basis? Are there any exceptions? Just wondering.